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Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?
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Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaCrap And Equality. on 11/18/2013 21:26:22 MST Print View

e

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Whoops on 11/19/2013 07:19:15 MST Print View

Student plans being cancelled and/or increasing dramatically, some as much as 10x.

This is the group the system relied on to have a prayers chance of surviving. I guess Pelosi and the Bamster didn't see this one coming either.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Pope Francis. on 11/19/2013 09:37:51 MST Print View

""While the income of a minority is increasing exponentially, that of the majority is crumbling. This imbalance results from ideologies which uphold the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation, and thus deny the right of control to States, which are themselves charged with providing for the common good. A new, invisible and at times virtual tyranny is established, one which unilaterally and irremediably imposes its own laws and rules." "

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/may/documents/papa-francesco_20130516_nuovi-ambasciatori_en.html

This looks to be from the Pope, not some journalist.

He further says

"Ethics – naturally, not the ethics of ideology – makes it possible, in my view, to create a balanced social order that is more humane. In this sense, I encourage the financial experts and the political leaders of your countries to consider the words of Saint John Chrysostom: "Not to share one’s goods with the poor is to rob them and to deprive them of life. It is not our goods that we possess, but theirs" (Homily on Lazarus, 1:6 – PG 48, 992D)."

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Pope Francis. on 11/19/2013 10:45:38 MST Print View

I think I'm going to become a Catholic : )

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaCrap on 11/19/2013 11:32:23 MST Print View

David...i'm in agreement here. What's the point, though? I don't think anyone is saying we should not help people without healthcare, we are arguing whether or not Obamacare was the right way to do it. Not sure what you're getting at.

M

Pope Francis embraces disfigured man (covered in boils) in St. Peter’s Square:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/11/06/photos-pope-francis-embraces-disfigured-man-covered-in-boils/

pope

I know, I know, Jerry...you think you're going to convert to Catholicism......

Edited by bigfoot2 on 11/19/2013 11:36:50 MST.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaCrap on 11/19/2013 14:35:34 MST Print View

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBwGZO9Thq4

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: ObamaCrap on 11/19/2013 21:51:17 MST Print View

Instead of so much vitriol and criticism from the tea party and anarchists here, can I please hear a suggestion or two about what you would have rather had for health care reform? Obviously the current system is not sustainable, nor fair. So what would you prefer?

I wanted real socialized medicine - basically Medicare for all - with private insurance covering extras and boutique care and cosmetic stuff...whatever you wanted to pay for.

So instead of just calling Barak Obama names, and posting silly internet memes, how about any idea at all about what you would rather have seen?

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaCrap on 11/19/2013 21:54:54 MST Print View

Jennifer,
c

Yup...describes your views perfectly. Carry on.

M

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: ObamaCrap on 11/19/2013 23:08:16 MST Print View

To answer your question seriously, when Republicans are asked, they say, first repeal Obamacare, then negotiate a replacement.

One advantage to that argument, is they don't have to agree on what that replacement is.

If the Republicans, among themselves, talked specifics, they wouldn't agree. It's much easier to agree that they don't like Obamacare.

If the Republicans did propose anything specific, then you could criticize the specifics and people might not like it. People may decide Obamacare is actually better. Or "Medicare for all". Again, much easier to agree that Obamacare is no good.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaCrap Alternatives--Conservative/Libertarian Perspective. on 11/20/2013 02:10:46 MST Print View

"So instead of just calling Barak Obama names, and posting silly internet memes, how about any idea at all about what you would rather have seen?"

Oh, were you being serious, Jennifer? LOL OK. Here's my 5 step idea of a better solution:

1) Repeal Obamacare:
There is a precedent for repealing highly unpopular and misguided laws: the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act of 1988. Recently, more than 70 percent of Missouri residents rejected a key provision of Obamacare­ ,the requirement that individuals purchase a health insurance plan designed and approved by government bureaucrats. The House of Representatives even voted recently to repeal one provision of Obamacare that will impose draconian paperwork requirements on millions of small businesses. The easiest way to address all these grievances: repeal Obamacare.

2) Promote Personal Control Through Tax Equity:
Today, workers who purchase coverage through their employer receive an unlimited tax break on the value of their health care benefits. However, those who purchase coverage on their own receive no comparable tax break. Ideally, the current tax exclusion should be replaced (or at the very least capped) with a system of universal tax credits for taxpayers. Medicaid and SCHIP spending should also be redirected to help low-income individuals and families purchase private health insurance

3) Fix Current Government Health Programs:
Medicare should be reformed into a defined-contribution system in which the government provides a contribution for benefits and seniors are able to apply their contribution to the health plan that suits them best.

4) Promote Federal/State Partnerships:
A one-size-fits-all federal solution cannot accommodate the unique and diverse health care challenges facing the states. The federal government should promote interstate commerce in health insurance, extend certain protections for those who maintain continuous coverage, and provide states with technical assistance and relief from federal rules that inhibit innovation.

5) Provide Portability:
Individuals, not the government, should be able to choose the health coverage that best suits their needs. To accomplish this, private health insurance must be portable--that is, owned by Americans so they can take their package from job to job.

There is no better symbol for the overreach of the progressive socialized medicine movement into the daily lives of all Americans than Obamacare.

r

Another good set of conservative, common sense solutions can be seen here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/363189/conservative-alternative-obamacare-nina-owcharenko

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Nice try Matt on 11/20/2013 08:02:13 MST Print View

Not only is it your fault (that it's failing and, all the others that were opposed to oh care) that people will be dying today because they can't afford the flu shots or row-tater surgey, but you can't come up with a solution. I think maybe you should use bullet points, and a title... Yes, if you had a title, then that would be a plan.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: ObamaCrap Alternatives--Conservative/Libertarian Perspective. on 11/20/2013 08:03:16 MST Print View

If Medicare is defined contribution, then it's like the government throws up it's hands, gives people some money, and it's up to them to get health care.

As costs continue to escalate, the government is fine, they continue to pay that amount, but the people have to pay more and more out of pocket.

You need to address the ever increasing cost of health care.


I agree, having employers pay for health insurance doesn't make a lot of sense, but again, the individuals will then be stuck with ever increasing costs. Now, employers are motivated to fix this problem.

And employers will quit paying for health care, fine, but they probably won't direct that amount towards higher wages so the employee can afford it. That could just turn into a big gift for big employers.


Better to have a tax like social security. An employee portion and an employer portion, or if you're self employed you have to pay both. Medicare for all.

You could still have health insurance companies administer it. Like with Medicare part D for prescriptions, and I think most people have a Medicare Plus insurance policy.

Have copays to encourage people not to over-use.

Take programs that work, like the Mayo Clinic or Cleveland Clinic that have recommendations for which treatments are effective and cost effective. If you say "government bureaucrats" enough people will be fearful, but if you say "doctors based on data to show what really works", maybe it will make more sense. "Death panels" is a another good term if you want people to be fearful.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: ObamaCrap Alternatives--Conservative/Libertarian Perspective. on 11/20/2013 08:15:08 MST Print View

"You need to address the ever increasing cost of health care."

Jerry, I read this part twice.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: ObamaCrap Alternatives--Conservative/Libertarian Perspective. on 11/20/2013 10:00:54 MST Print View

"You need to address the ever increasing cost of health care."

Jerry, I read this part twice."


Do you have a solution?

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Solution on 11/20/2013 10:47:51 MST Print View

Yes. Not much different from Matts to start. It will be the most efficient when the patient pays the Dr.

Edited by BFThorp on 11/20/2013 10:50:39 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Solution on 11/20/2013 10:52:50 MST Print View

I don't see how capping federal medicare payment does anything to control increases in health care cost.

It will control the federal portion, but the individual will have to pick up anything the feds save.

Or if you move health care from employer to employee, same thing.

If an individual can deduct from income for taxes, that would save a little, but then cost of health care would continue to rise. And only a few people have individual insurance.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Rising hot air... on 11/20/2013 14:22:12 MST Print View

Jerry,

A friend of mine recently paid, out of pocket, or maybe from his HSA, I don't remember which.... for a scan of some sort, cat, MRI, again fuzzy on this too. He knew he was going to have the procedure done so he did some shopping. The second estimate was $1,000 less than the first at $3k. When he went to pay he asked what the cash discount would be? He got them down to about $1,500.

If the tab would have been picked up by his insurer, I can promise you he would have made only the one call.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Rising hot air... on 11/20/2013 16:03:08 MST Print View

That makes logical sense Fred, I agree with you, good for the patient to have "skin in the game".

I was taking an expensive blood pressure medicine. Copay went up to $60 a month. That motivated me to switch to cheap generic. Now it's $4 a month which is so cheap I get 6 month supply and pay out of pocket.

A lot of times care is urgent and you don't have time to shop.

An insurance company would be in a better position to shop for the cheapest rate.

Some people have a hard time figuring out how to negotiate.

A lot of times the MRI isn't required, just done to be defensive. If there were better defined protocols that say when a MRI is justified it would help doctors say no.

The reasons health care is so expensive are many and there's no one simple solution.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Protocol on 11/20/2013 16:42:19 MST Print View

Jerry, protocols defined by who exactly? This is why you and I don't think alike and will probably never agree on much of this. The dr needs to make the call with the consent of the patient (considering the expense), not the inusurer, or risk management. It ain't rockit surgery

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Protocol on 11/20/2013 18:36:01 MST Print View

For example, the Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic have both been leaders in defining protocols.

By doctors. Using data from patients.

It says what treatment is most effective, but the doctor still uses his judgement for specific cases.

And constantly look at your data to update the protocols.

Sort of like how they've improved quality of manufacturing automobiles or airplanes.