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Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?
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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Congratulations on 11/16/2013 13:59:36 MST Print View

"Jerry, your tea party stuff is borderline crazy. Don't let such a small group of people dominate your thinking and behavior"

Just responding to Matts "C'mon, people...wake up! Our founding fathers fought a war over a 2% tax on their breakfast beverage for cryin' out loud.
Sheep. Sheep everywhere."


You disagree that the original tea party was protesting special tax loophole to benefit a big British company?

Or that the tea party people in congress want to preserve special tax loopholes for big corporations?

Or are you just saying that the tea party is a fringe group that will fade away? That's probably correct, especially after they went against they're big corporate masters about shutting down the government. Probably financial "contributions" (bribes) will be reduced.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy)

Locale: Colorado
Original Tea Party on 11/16/2013 15:24:53 MST Print View

Not sure there is such a thing as the "original tea party". The participants in the Boston Tea Party were tired of a tyrannical, over reaching central government trying to dictate their lives. Unfair taxation was certainly an issue that drove the protest and later the revolution.

Everybody in Congress wants loopholes for their donors and voters. That's why the tax code is a billon pages long. The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world. The federal government rewards those they favor and punish their enemies. Both parties do it and the current administration is no virgin at crony capitalism.

I think the ideals exhibited by the tea party are not going away. I don't mean the way they are portrayed by the democrats or their media slaves. The biggest fear for democrats and progressive is a repeat of 2010 in 2014. Major, major swings in the House and Senate and as importantly state legislators and governors.

The President's arrogance and over reach will come back to bite the party.

Just think if he had worked with republicans to cover pre-existing conditions, open interstate markets, standardize plans, and reform tort litigation. That would have really moved the country forward.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Original Tea Party on 11/16/2013 17:03:44 MST Print View

"Not sure there is such a thing as the "original tea party". "

They dressed up as "Indians" and threw the East India Tea Company tea into the ocean.

Because there was a tax loophole imposed by the British that favored the East India Company.


"Just think if he had worked with republicans to cover pre-existing conditions, open interstate markets, standardize plans, and reform tort litigation. That would have really moved the country forward."

You are dillusional if you think there was any way the Republicans would have worked with Obama.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy)

Locale: Colorado
Change the order of your nouns on 11/16/2013 17:27:01 MST Print View

As I recall shortly after the election in 2008, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid stood on the steps of the Capitol and said "we won" when asked about incorporating republican ideas into any legislation.

In reality, that was their practice. There was no chance for any republican input in the most sweeping legislation since the Civil Rights Act.

In my reality, it's pretty hard to defend a bill that was done in a vacuum without normal process or oversight, was not understood by the people who voted for it, was suggested that it had to passed to know what was in it, and has been proven to be full of lies and untruths. The execution is a joke with more fallout to come.

If republicans had blundered this badly, liberals and progressives would be yelling for impeachment.

Instead they daily stretch their tolerance for incompetence.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Change the order of your nouns on 11/16/2013 18:43:07 MST Print View

You can find examples where both parties could have been more concilliatory

"it's pretty hard to defend a bill that was done in a vacuum without normal process or oversight, was not understood by the people who voted for it, was suggested that it had to passed to know what was in it, and has been proven to be full of lies and untruths"

ha, ha, ha... Republicans come up with ridiculous talking points and then repeat them over and over again, if you repeat it often enough many people will believe it

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Congratulations on 11/16/2013 19:08:06 MST Print View

Thanks the well-wishes!

But actually Ken, there isn't nearly enough regulation in my field. And texas actually is just about the same as Illinois in terms of medical regulation, so I'm not sure why you think this state is any better than any other.

As I mentioned in another thread, those who think we have too much regulation and that the free market will sort it all out tend to not have spent any time in 3rd world countries were there isn't any regulation.

Check out the pollution in china right now...not at all to be bothered by a pesky job killing EPA!

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Congratulations on 11/16/2013 19:12:05 MST Print View

China was mentioned as an example of a regulation free country?

Edited to add a question mark and this:

China is second only to India when it comes to regulation. Switzerland is the 4th least regulated when it comes to doing business.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World

And this a chart worth looking at



atEconomic freedom

Edited by Kat_P on 11/16/2013 20:08:38 MST.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy)

Locale: Colorado
I agree on 11/16/2013 19:22:45 MST Print View

It is pretty ridiculous to expect elected officials to know what they are voting for or against.

Your talking points argument is pretty juvenile.

You can however keep repeating "you can keep your policy and doctor, period"

Next shoe to drop is ".....keeping your doctor"

Many will remain loyal, mostly because of their disdain for republicans, but many more are now being affected personally.

No amount of charm or rhetoric will make a difference to them.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaBS on 11/17/2013 00:33:28 MST Print View

"ha, ha, ha... Republicans come up with ridiculous talking points and then repeat them over and over again, if you repeat it often enough many people will believe it"

Ha...total BS, Jerry. That's an accurate description of what you and, on a much larger scale, the Obama Administration have been doing for years. Here's a recent example:
"If you like your heath plan, you can keep it".

...here's an idea for you...don't let this healthcare crisis with your messianic president go to waste. Make sure you slander conservatives, Libertarians and Republicans at every opportunity, ok? It makes no difference if what you say is true or not, the ends justifies the means. If you need any refreshers, please refer to the Saul Alinsky playbook.


M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 11/17/2013 00:37:55 MST.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: ObamaBS on 11/17/2013 06:45:09 MST Print View

Kat, I'm pretty sure I mentioned it as lacking environmental regulations. I made no mention of anything else; simply as an example of allowing a corporation free reign to do whatever its pocketbook suggests they do does not always lead to behavior that is safe nor positive to the rest of us.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: ObamaBS on 11/17/2013 08:08:01 MST Print View

Yes, you mentioned China's environmental regulations, but in a context of regulations in general, and in a thread about the FDA.

"As I mentioned in another thread, those who think we have too much regulation and that the free market will sort it all out tend to not have spent any time in 3rd world countries were there isn't any regulation. "

I have no problem with some regulations, but if you read up in my link you will see thar countries that have the least economic regulations, and where the individual has the ability to make choices not dictated by their government...those countries have the least crime, infant mortality, the highest education and on and on.
I think the philosophical difference between us in this case in not about one of us caring for the poor more than the other, but rather we differ on how we achieve more people benefitting from the wealth in a society.
As far as the ACA, I have not studied it enough to know, but I like the idea of more people being able to afford health care. Like you, my employment choices have been somewhat dictated by needing health insurance and the fact that this allowed you to cut free from a job you did not like is great news.
I have lived in two countries that had health care for all :
Italy had single payer, universal health care and while I can tell you some hair raising stories, I can also say that I was sure head to have the care and not go broke forgetting sick.
Switzerland has mandatory ( by Cantons not by the Feds) health coverage, not tied to employment. The minimum coverage is regulated and affordable and subsidized for the poor. Anything extra is not regulated, more expensive and not subsidized.

Those two countries also differed dramatically in "ease" to do business and that is what I have the most direct experience with. In that realm I can say that over regulation caused massive unemployment as well as dishonest practices and crime in general.
I would be happy to give you the details.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/17/2013 08:40:52 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: ObamaBS on 11/17/2013 08:17:34 MST Print View

""ha, ha, ha... Republicans come up with ridiculous talking points and then repeat them over and over again, if you repeat it often enough many people will believe it"

Ha...total BS, Jerry. That's an accurate description of what you and, on a much larger scale, the Obama Administration have been doing for years. Here's a recent example:
"If you like your heath plan, you can keep it"."


Jerry and Matt, I am going to agree with both of you, because in my opinion plenty of Republicans and plenty of Democrats have been repeating ridiculous talking points over and over and over again. Some notable ones right here on BPL.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: ObamaBS on 11/17/2013 08:25:54 MST Print View

What's a ridiculous talking point I've repeated over and over again?

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy)

Locale: Colorado
Extreme examples on 11/17/2013 08:33:35 MST Print View

I have never figured out why liberals jump to such extremes when challenged on issues.

Limited federal government doesn't equal no federal government

Curtailing excess regulation doesn't equal no regulation

jeeeeeeeeeeze

It was interesting to watch the President speak about how federal IT procurement regulations caused problems for the ObamaCare rollout.

For a minute there I thought Reagan was on stage. Of course he'll do nothing about them, just more talk.

This Administration invested in "green energy" project. Some of which were aimed at solar energy electrical production. The idea being to create "middle class" manufacturing jobs.

Can you even imagine how long, how tedious, how expensive, how frustrating it would be to get a permit from the EPA to build a solar cell foundry in the US? It would not happen in your children's lifetime.

Instead it all goes to China, who does have atrocious environmental practices, but they get the high dollar manufacturing content with a US subsidy, go figure.

When the EPA was created, rivers in the East caught fire. Much work has been done with good results. But like all good bureaucracies, they continue to grow and grow for their our prosperity. Now they want to regulate the composition of the Earth's atmosphere and I bet their strategic plans involve regulating the sun ;)

And before someone suggest imposing the same standards on the rest of the world for equilibrium, forget it, it won't work.

Last year there were something like 140,000 new laws and regulations passed. Our state legislators in Colorado banged their chest with pride on how new laws they got through. No worries on the millions of hours individuals and businesses must spend to understand compliance.

After the financial meltdown, we were told that the country lacked regulations to prevent it. Seriously, you could fill the first floor of the library of Congress with pre-2008 financial laws and regulations.

Most career politicians are lawyers, in the case of this administration, many are academics that have no practical business experience.

We live in a global economy, competing with other nations for the means to create wealth. The government should be an enabler, not a barrier to that success.

Just think, free Obama I-pads.
Jennifer is lucky to be so close to a state government that knows how to do it.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Extreme examples on 11/17/2013 08:50:44 MST Print View

The problem that I see with over regulation is that it is the small companies that end up not being able to comply, where the big ones have enough money and clout to bypass regulation.
Notice how small community banks are struggling because if regulation put in place because of the "too big to fail" banks? Those guilty ones are still able to afford lawyers and bypass a lot of the regulation.
As someone mention a while ago; if your business is "too big to fail" then you should be well regulated.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Extreme examples on 11/17/2013 09:18:17 MST Print View

Yeah, over-regulation benefits big companies. Since they have "bought" our government, there's no reason to remove regulations. Republicans and Democrats are like those "professional" wrestlers that pretend to fight with each other.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
ObamaCrap on 11/17/2013 09:39:46 MST Print View

" Republicans and Democrats are like those "professional" wrestlers that pretend to fight with each other."

Well said, there, Jerry. Maybe there's hope for you yet.

M

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: ObamaCrap on 11/17/2013 09:54:25 MST Print View

Actually, if we quit arguing about ridiculous stuff, we could unite against the people that have bought our government.

And many of the people that are in office hate it as much or more than we. If they don't go along with it, they won't get re-elected.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy)

Locale: Colorado
Sumo on 11/17/2013 10:10:29 MST Print View

I like the wrestler example, just envision Hillary vs Palin, cage match to the death.

We had a local bank fail to meet the new, improved federal requirements. It was forced to close, took out 3 local car dealerships.

Had it been a state or local regulatory agency decision, they likely would have figured out a way to make things work.

Washington DC is a universe unto itself. Once inside the Beltway, throw rational thinking out the window and tune in to political correctness.

I read somewhere that 7 out of 10 of the wealthiest counties surround Washington DC. Politicians, bureaucrats, lobbyists, and influence peddlers comprise the wealth in this country. What happened to innovators, inventors, entrepreneurs, engineers, business men & women and other job creators in California, Texas, North Caroline etc.

Jerry is right about the best government money can buy, but I think the solution is to disperse it's influence and power to more a state and local level.

That way it's easier to round up the bad apples and put them in the public square for punishment.

Today they get a promotion and an office with a view of the Potomac

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Sumo on 11/17/2013 11:13:52 MST Print View

I don't see any obvious solutions

If you disperse, then you can have, for example, states compete against each other on having the smallest safety net. Then poor people will move to states with better safety nets, so they'll be forced to have minimal safety nets too.

If you buy into the idea that it's okay for the government to have a safety net as long as it doesn't encourage people to be lazy, better to be federal, ignoring other factors.

Many other similar problems.

If we all get mad as hell about how are government is bought, that's a start

Maybe some popular "Occupy" or "Tea Party" movement could precipitate change

Same problem in 1930 and some how things changed then