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Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?
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Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Calling just one side on 10/11/2013 09:38:52 MDT Print View

You are correct in that I call out the left a lot more than the right. I am well aware of that and I am paying the consequences for that, right here on BPL.
I am a liberal as far as most issues, and I it hurts me more to see liberals act as bullies and unfortunately as far as bullying on this forum the left does it more often and mostly with impunity, because it is generally accepted to do so.
So more than a liberal, I am someone that does not like group thinking and at least tries to discern what about a group I like and what I do not like.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Intellectual discussion on 10/11/2013 09:48:02 MDT Print View

Some great voices on both sides no longer contribute to Chaff and that is a loss for all of us. One of the reasons that happened is how nasty the threads get: name calling, put downs and unfounded accusations. The best chance we have for good discussion is to try and keep them civil and give people a chance to express themselves without jumping on them and bunching them with the extremes.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday? on 10/11/2013 09:49:39 MDT Print View

"It's not that you want to stop treating someone because it's too expensive, it's because at some point it's ineffective. And being subjected to treatments and tests that have no chance of success is just torture."

"HK describes a very real and heart wrenching dilemma for all health care systems."

+1 I'm not trying to sound caloused as it was heart wrenching to deal with this with my grandmother but there came a point for her where treatment was only going to buy her exta days of pain. When people speak of "Death Panels", it's difficult not to read it as political spin or at the very least ignorant.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/11/2013 09:51:43 MDT.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Ice on 10/11/2013 09:57:05 MDT Print View

"Matt, you are the one wearing the diapers of poo. The ice has thinned so much, for the first time ever, ships are using the northwest passage. Franklin never had it so good. I give little credit to your knowledge of ACA if you do so little research."
---
David,
Sorry, not true.
---

The link you provided was an opinion piece over a year old and said nothing about ice thinning in the arctic. The fact that at least two shipping companies are using the Northwest Passage as we speak for the first time ever shows your statement about ice and climate change to be wrong.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
VA and government health care pre ACA on 10/11/2013 10:24:07 MDT Print View

I made some comments about the VA in another response where I referred to my local clinic as a pisshole full of buffoons. That is a true statement as it is.

I took a moment to think about the organization I work for and some of the deserved criticism we've received over the years. Sometimes there are organizational failures which happen in spite of the fact that there are many talented and hardworking employees who are handicapped by bureaucracy.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are some talented health care professionals who've made it their life's work to work for the VA and serve our veterans. My previous comments about the VA painted the whole organization in a way which is not accurate as I thought the VA hospital in Syracuse, while not necessarily the best in the region, was a very nice hospital.

Another thought....

I've been a federal employee for over 20 years. While I'm still a whippersnapper compared to people like Doug, I've been around long enough to use CHAMPUS, Tri-Care, and am currently enrolled in BCBS with my current employer. My health care is far from free and I invest 1000s of dollars every year to my premiums. My son spent a day in the ER this year. Even though we're enrolled in BCBS high option, we're still making payments on his medical bills.

As expensive as this all is, I think it's pretty fair and the bills are not something which will force us into bankruptcy or into a position where we'll lose our house.

I think this should be the gold standard for all Americans. The concept of ACA is not something that I object to as a person who's politically right of center. The fact remains that hospitals are not going to turn away someone with a life threatening issue. Speaking from an EMS point of view, we did not collect one red penny from 40% of our calls. For the other 60%, our reimbursement rates, especially from Medicare and Medicaid, were far below our operating expenses. The only reason our non-profit ambulance company could stay afloat was for the fact that we were subsidized by the cities we covered.

We can't eliminate the problem (sick and injured people) so all we can do is try to develop the most affordable and sustainable solution which will hopefully not reduce the quality of our existing healthcare system.

I’ve said it before but the GOP is not in a position to remove ACA from the books. If they were smart, they’d focus on amending the job killing aspects of the ACA instead of trying to defund it altogether.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: polar ice caps on 10/11/2013 10:39:20 MDT Print View

"How do you explain the fact that the polar ice caps grew 60% last year?"

Actually, it was only 29 percent. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it that 60 percent does, which is why folks who want to disbelieve that humans are a significant cause of climate change aren't correcting the record, but instead still using the wrong number that was initially reported.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
60% more ice ! on 10/11/2013 10:52:54 MDT Print View

"How do you explain the fact that the polar ice caps grew 60% last year?"

The same way I would explain the collapse of the WTC building increased their area 900%.

More area, less depth, less permanence, but the increase in area, while only temporary, was undeniable.

Edited by redmonk on 10/11/2013 10:55:37 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: "Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 10:56:17 MDT Print View

"And Jerry, if we can put together boards of experts to recommend treatment programs that reduce costs why don't we just do that?"

This is happening, slowly

Like the Mayo Clinic has a bunch of protocols. Where are they, Minnesota? I think they have lower health care expenses as a result.

But this is too slow given how badly the economy is being impacted. Some sort of larger organization which probably requires government will speed things up.

If you just let things happen as they will, which is sort of what we've been doing, then decisions are made on the basis of maximizing corporate profit.

Then you get things like in California, health care companies have been found guilty of throwing people off health care for minor technical errors when they get an expensive disease.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 10:56:24 MDT Print View

""How do you explain the fact that the polar ice caps grew 60% last year?"

Actually, it was only 29 percent. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it that 60 percent does, which is why folks who want to disbelieve that humans are a significant cause of climate change aren't correcting the record, but instead still using the wrong number that was initially reported."

Doug...even if i'm wrong and it "only" grew by 29%, that's still 29%...an amazing figure. How do you explain that?

" The fact that at least two shipping companies are using the Northwest Passage as we speak for the first time ever shows your statement about ice and climate change to be wrong."

David...simply not true. Here is proof it's not:

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/North-West-Passage-blocked-with-ice%E2%80%94yachts-caught/113788

I'm sure you'll come back saying something like Sailworld.com's article is a bunch of right-wing garbage and it can't be trusted. LOL. Not actual science, just hundreds of actual people there seeing it with their own eyes. Blinded by the right, i suppose. LOL

Matt
PS--No amount of articles or documentation I provide will be enough to convince some of the fact that they might be wrong on the issue. You have too much time, money and effort invested in this hoax to ever give it up. I realize that. The sources I provided linked actual scientific studies, that my critics on here either did not check out, or flat out say are false. Not much more I can provide, without taking a snowball to your heads.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/11/2013 10:58:23 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: 60% more ice ! on 10/11/2013 10:58:23 MDT Print View

"but the increase in area in undeniable."

Yes, but, as I read it, the 60 percent figure is incorrect - due to a math error by the NSIDC.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415191/And-global-COOLING-Return-Arctic-ice-cap-grows-29-year.html

From the linked article:

"Since publication of the original version of this article, the US source of the figures – the NASA-funded National Snow and Ice Data Centre (NSIDC) - was discovered to have made a huge error and then quietly corrected the figure without mentioning it.

On September 4, NSIDC, based at the University of Colorado, stated on its website that in August 2013 the Arctic ice cover recovered by a record 2.38 million sq km – 919,000 sq miles – from its 2012 low.

News of this figure was widely reported – including by Mailonline - on September 8. But on September 10, the NSIDC quietly changed it to 1.38 million sq km (533,000 sq miles) – and replaced the original document so the old figure no longer shows up on a main Google search. It can now only be found on an old ‘cached’ page.

The figures in this article have now been corrected."

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 11:07:04 MDT Print View

Thanks, Doug. Good to know. But 29% is still 29%.

Matt

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: polar ice cap redux" on 10/11/2013 11:11:01 MDT Print View

"Doug...even if i'm wrong and it "only" grew by 29%, that's still 29%...an amazing figure. How do you explain that?"

Like you, I'm not a scientist. But, seemingly, unlike you (and I mean no malice with this statement at all, just my perception), I like to read both sides of the issue and then decide what seems to make the most sense.

So as far as explaining, I'll offer two articles, both by the same author, that gives a different perspective to the Shocking Headlines About 60 Percent or 29 Percent or Whatever!!!.

Of course, I don't care if you completely disregard what this author (and others like him) say, any more than you care if I disregard what 'your' authors say (though I don't, actually, I read what they say, I read what this guy says, and weigh what I think they're both not telling me and I decide from there).

Also, please note that I don't believe I've actually taken a stance here in any of my posts, I've simply corrected what I feel might be misleading or incorrect information in other posts.

Story 1

Story 2

Edited by idester on 10/11/2013 11:13:19 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 11:12:42 MDT Print View

"Matthew is the perfect example - "I know it. It is my opinion," and anything from "mainstream" media is tainted and can't be trusted."

Jennifer,
Sorry, I can't let this one go. Part of that quote was said by me but is being taken out of context and the rest is a lie that I never uttered. Jennifer...again, your partisan attacks are making you look bad and proving Kat's statements true.

Matt

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 11:17:25 MDT Print View

"Also, please note that I don't believe I've actually taken a stance here in any of my posts, I've simply corrected what I feel might be misleading or incorrect information in other posts.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/09/10/climate_change_sea_ice_global_cooling_and_other_nonsense.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/05/28/arctic_sea_ice_global_warming_is_melting_more_ice_every_year.html"

Thanks,Doug...I will read them at a later time (bookmarked for after work). I am sorry I brought it up, not because I feel I am wrong, but because it seemed to hijack the thread and get it off topic. For that, everyone, I apologize. Again, Doug, thanks for the sources and civility. :)

Matt

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 11:23:25 MDT Print View

"I am sorry I brought it up, not because I feel I am wrong, but because it seemed to hijack the thread and get it off topic. For that, everyone, I apologize."

I don't know, the way the thread was going, I'm not sure lots of people would be upset at a bit of a hijack.....

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Death panels? Socialized medicine? Government takeover? on 10/11/2013 11:40:10 MDT Print View

"Our society does not value reasoned, intellectual arguments anymore. We keep pulling out the nazi card, or comparing Obamacare to the end of days (see Bachmann). "Intellectual elite" has become an insult. And as far as those people are concerned, nothing says it better than former congressman Barney Frank, to someone who referred to Obamacare as a "nazi policy": "Trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table.""

I mostly agree with this. But, from some of your posts, it seems you've decided to go ahead and argue, somewhat belligerently, with the dining room table anyway.... :-)

I'm not sure I see the value in that, because the table ain't listening, and ain't gonna listen, regardless of how loud you argue. In my mind, by being reasonable and somewhat 'professional,' I know I still won't reach the truly closed minds (nor am I attempting to), but I might cause others who are listening on the side, who might be willing to think a bit more to a reasonable counter-view, think a bit more and do a bit more research beyond what they normally read.

It is, after all, the moderates who determine who wins national elections, not the fringe of either side. And moderates generally aren't swayed by belligerence, IMO. They're turned off by it.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 11:52:29 MDT Print View

I prefer the Matt that talks about articles rather than Hitler references : )

The 60% less ice in the sail world article was from one year to the next

The effect of CO2 in the atmosphere is a decades and centuries and mellinial effect

The problem with global warming is the long time scale. If you read articles, they talk about what's going to happen by the end of the century - that's 87 years from now. We'll all be dead. What do we care?

Any changes that have occurred up to now are very minor and difficult to tell the difference with normal year-to-year changes.

Like, the Vikings inhabited North America because it was warmer. Then it got colder and they had to abandon North America. That change is bigger than anything we've seen due to increased CO2 levels. There's no agreement what caused that warming period. Whatever it is that caused that could be causing any change we've seen up to now.

But 100 or 1000 years from now, the changes may be much greater

Some scientists are uncomfortable with this and exhagerate the science and attack anyone that disagrees with their exhagerations. Maybe this is the correct attitude because otherwise we won't do anything about it?

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 12:01:01 MDT Print View

"I prefer the Matt that talks about articles rather than Hitler references : )"

I never would have posted the cartoon had someone else not brought it up. That's like dangling a steak in front of a starving man....sheesh! Just couldn't be helped.


:)

M

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 12:07:46 MDT Print View

good point, I posted the first cartoon : )

okay, let us now unite against political contributions that have created the best government money can buy...

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/11/2013 13:27:55 MDT Print View

"good point, I posted the first cartoon : )

okay, let us now unite against political contributions that have created the best government money can buy..."

The enemy of my friend's enemies cousin is my BFF? I can dig it, Doug :)

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/11/2013 13:34:11 MDT.