Forum Index » Chaff » Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?


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Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 17:43:53 MDT Print View

"@Matthew Perry
> Nothing changed, but it will get worse.....

sources please."

Really, Richard?
Just look at who will run it and enforce it. Check out the VA for a good idea of what's to come. Wasn't aware we needed to list sources for opinions given. OK---my source is (drum roll, please)..... Matt Perry and his opinion. LOL

Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/10/2013 17:54:44 MDT.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 18:41:09 MDT Print View

> Matt Perry and his opinion

Most opinions have some kind of basis to support them. If yours doesn't then it's worthless speculation. What do you achieve with that? Win a shouting match? Whoop-de-do.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Sources Please!!!! on 10/10/2013 18:55:49 MDT Print View

"Are we having fun yet?"

Don't know about fun .....but a "party " for sure. Towing party lines, one side against the other, actually believing that we are split into two.
I like to look at the individual, just like I like to look at the individual issues.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 18:58:04 MDT Print View

"@Doug I
> Medicare may be great, but the VA, in many, many places, truly sucks.
Doug, I like you but same for all. Can I get a source on that?"

Hi Richard, I like you too, but ..... no.

I'm having a discussion, not offering an academic dissertation.

Besides, I mean, c'mon, anyone who's paid attention to the U.S. news in the last decade knows that the VA is not very highly regarded - huge backlogs, substandard care (some contributing to deaths), back in 2011 the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco concluded that the Department of Veterans Affairs’ treatment of mentally-ailing vets was so poor it was unconstitutional. Lots of recent stories about servicemembers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan getting far-too-long-delayed care and benefits from the VA. Just do a google search, there's plenty to find.

I actually think Jennifer was referring to TRICARE, the program that covers the military/military families and military retirees/families. That program is excellent, IMO. Pretty much unbeatable. But that's not run by the VA.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 19:07:38 MDT Print View

> anyone who's paid attention to the U.S. news in the last decade knows that the
> VA is not very highly regarded

I haven't lived in the US since the 80's. Hence my ignorance on some issues. Mathew's link and Ian's descriptions are enough for me.

If we look up our sources to avoid knee-jerk replies then maybe the discussion could go somewhere beyond tit-for-tat.

I'm open to having my position swayed (I vote, so I count) but it will not happen with unfounded statements that sound more like political spin and drama than supporting a position.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 19:10:37 MDT Print View

Richard, fair to ask for sources. Even more fair to ask them from both sides.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 19:23:00 MDT Print View

Well Fred and Matthew, I am well aware of the decreasing reimbursement rates for Medicare - I am a provider, and my clinics' payments go down every year.

But you also have to realize how much money is spent on trying to negotiate with each and every insurance policy for each and every person, the amount of time and paperwork and phone calls that go into getting paid by insurance companies...it is literally insane. Single payer, socialized medicine means I know what I'm getting paid, I have no financial incentive to cheat patients and sell them snake oil treatments because I get paid a lot of money to do them. There would be no huge staff devoted to trying to unravel the intricacies of each policy, of trying to be honestly paid for honest work, for insurance companies that deny thousands of dollars in claims because a bubble wasn't filled out correctly, or I forgot the OH in front of the insurance number...

Last year my PT clinic billed 12 million dollars. We were reimbursed 3 million. 75% of that was private insurance. Tell me please how that is sustainable?

So to exchange ALL of that headache for nothing but Medicare or VA? Sign me up.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 19:27:51 MDT Print View

Kat, I appreciate your desire for "objectivity" here, but to blame both sides equally is what is known as a false equivalency. It's like giving equal time and equal weight to evolution vs creationists, or climate change vs the deniers.

The right wing makes up stories, repeats them enough and calls them facts. Death panels? Socialized medicine? Government takeover? The debt ceiling REALLY doesn't matter, it will actually stabilize the markets...how does one refute absolute insanity?

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 19:29:23 MDT Print View

"I haven't lived in the US since the 80's."

It doesn't really matter where you live, but if you haven't read U.S. news at all since the 80s then I understand.

"I'm open to having my position swayed (I vote, so I count) but it will not happen with unfounded statements that sound more like political spin and drama than supporting a position."

I agree with you, Richard. And I often call people on what seem to me to be baseless statements - on both sides. But rather than ask someone for sources, I tend to look things up myself - mainly because I don't have a lot of confidence in many of the sources that cheerleaders offer - they're bound to be incomplete or one-sided.

Edit to add: I also gave up trying to change most people's minds awhile ago. I've found that very, very few people have open minds any more, and very, very few people really bother to actually THINK about issues. Someone made up their minds for them some time ago, and they generally only listen to those who reinforce what they want to believe or already think. These forums are certainly a testament to that, as are any comments section on any website that touches on pretty much any issue. We no longer discuss, we only argue and talk past each other.

Yup, I'm an old cynic, sad to say.

Edited by idester on 10/10/2013 19:36:58 MDT.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
re re re re re re re re What was it? on 10/10/2013 19:45:21 MDT Print View

@Kat: "is what is known as a false equivalency"

Yep, I find myself spending more energy asking one side to support its statements and it casts a shadow on their overall position.

@Doug: "mainly because I don't have a lot of confidence in many of the sources that cheerleaders offer"

But that helps discern the spin from research and helps me tune my ear to some voices more than others.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 19:45:22 MDT Print View

Jen I am not blaming the current crises equally.
The way we do politics in this country, the corruption, the fact that parties are for sale- that I am blaming equally. The ignorance of those that get their news from the big media and go no further- that happens on both sides.
The put downs, name calling, hyperboles- that I blame equally.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 19:47:19 MDT Print View

Jennifer,
Off topic, sorry, but you can count me in the climate change disbeliever category (I know, big surprise,right?). How do you explain the fact that the polar ice caps grew 60% last year?

Source:
http://www.hangthebankers.com/global-cooling-not-warming-arctic-ice-cap-grows-60-in-one-year/

Al Gore is full of $h!t!

Matt

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
ice on 10/10/2013 20:11:07 MDT Print View

"Off topic, sorry, but you can count me in the climate change disbeliever category (I know, big surprise,right?). How do you explain the fact that the polar ice caps grew 60% last year?

Source:
http://www.hangthebankers.com/global-cooling-not-warming-arctic-ice-cap-grows-60-in-one-year/"
---

Matt, you are the one wearing the diapers of poo. The ice has thinned so much, for the first time ever, ships are using the northwest passage. Franklin never had it so good. I give little credit to your knowledge of ACA if you do so little research.


" The international shipping industry is these days witness to a historic event, when a vessel for the first time ever is sailing from Vancouver in Canada to Finland through Arctic waters. One of the world’s few modern ice-class bulk carriers - MV NORDIC ORION - will carry a cargo of 73,500 tons of coal via the so called North West Passage through Arctic waters to Finland. A Danish pioneer in operating ice-classed bulk carriers Nordic Bulk Carriers A/S is behind the historic North West Journey."
http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/Historic-Sea-Route-Opens-Through-Canadian-Arctic-Waters-2013-09-25/


"China May Have New Shipping Shortcut Thanks to Melting Arctic Ice
Each summer we've lost more than half of the ice cover that we typically have," said Ignatius Rigor of Washington University's Polar Science Center, Applied Physics Laboratory. "We've also lost a lot of the thickness of sea ice, so taken together the total volume of sea ice is down to less than 40 percent of what it used to be.""
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/08/china-has-a-new-short-cut-thanks-to-melting-arctic-ice.html

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday? on 10/10/2013 20:18:05 MDT Print View

This summer was characterized by unusually low pressure over much of the Arctic Ocean, which limited heat import from the south and brought more extensive cloud cover, keeping temperatures lower. In addition, the wind patterns associated with the low pressure caused the ice cover to spread out and cover a larger area.

Thick stable multi year ice is being replaced with thin seasonal ice.

--National Snow and Ice Data Center


Not everyone would read the report and walk away concluding global climate change is a hoax.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 20:19:00 MDT Print View

"I agree with you, Richard. And I often call people on what seem to me to be baseless statements - on both sides. But rather than ask someone for sources, I tend to look things up myself - mainly because I don't have a lot of confidence in many of the sources that cheerleaders offer - they're bound to be incomplete or one-sided.

Edit to add: I also gave up trying to change most people's minds awhile ago. I've found that very, very few people have open minds any more, and very, very few people really bother to actually THINK about issues. Someone made up their minds for them some time ago, and they generally only listen to those who reinforce what they want to believe or already think. These forums are certainly a testament to that, as are any comments section on any website that touches on pretty much any issue. We no longer discuss, we only argue and talk past each other."



Great post. Thanks.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Absurd. on 10/10/2013 20:22:20 MDT Print View

Richard. My single payer resource was from Forbes and the Senate majority leader.

Jennifer. Good information, I hear the same billing problems from a friend. How much of the regulation, barriers to entry, etc., have contributed to the current problem in your opinion?

I work in a heavily regulated industry and it (regulations) literally cost us and the consumer millions, and destroys competition. Yet corruption still exists, and when false markets are inflated by policy that fails, the taxpayer is left with the bill.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 20:33:53 MDT Print View

"Matt, you are the one wearing the diapers of poo. The ice has thinned so much, for the first time ever, ships are using the northwest passage. Franklin never had it so good. I give little credit to your knowledge of ACA if you do so little research."

David,
Sorry, not true. Natural climate cycles have already turned from warming to cooling, global temperatures have already been declining for more than 10 years, and global temperatures will continue to decline for another two decades or more. That is one of the most interesting conclusions to come out of the seventh International Climate Change Conference. I think it's you who might need to do some more research, my friend.


Source (Forbes):
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/05/31/sorry-global-warming-alarmists-the-earth-is-cooling/

Matt

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 22:02:17 MDT Print View

"The right wing makes up stories, repeats them enough and calls them facts. Death panels? Socialized medicine? Government takeover? The debt ceiling REALLY doesn't matter, it will actually stabilize the markets...how does one refute absolute insanity?"

Don't you think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Just because someone is opposed to ACA doesn't mean that they believe in any of these things. I live in a very conservative part of Washington and we have more physicians and PhDs per capita than Seattle. There are some legitimate concerns that we're creating a health care system that isn't fiscally sustainable. I can tell you for a fact based on my wife's experience as a therapist and MHP that federal funding for certain mental health programs like PACT have been the absolute worst since Obama has been in office. Some of the worst cuts were made when the Democrats had both houses.

We may end up like Germany or we may end up like Greece.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 22:20:18 MDT Print View

"There are some legitimate concerns that we're creating a health care system that isn't fiscally sustainable"

Our current health care system isn't fiscally sustainable. Costs increase much more than inflation until it's now 20% (?) of the economy. In the future it will get worse and will ruin our economy.

Obamacare is an attempt at fixing this. It's not a static thing but will get modified in the future. About all you can say is it's what was politically feasible at the time. In today's political environment we won't be fixing it probably, but this will change.

Dave Stoller
(BreakingAway)
"Who is signing up for ObamaCare (aka ACA) on Tuesday?" on 10/10/2013 23:10:07 MDT Print View

"@Dave > The health care provider clearinghouse things (whatever you want to call them)
> are told who their customers will be, what services must be offered, what they
> can charge and what their margins will be.
Sources Please."


It's a little discouraging to be asked to provide sources for very basic elements of ObamaCare but I guess the person asking doesn't live here so it's a little different. Plenty of folks who do live here seem to also have a limited understanding of how it works.

Health care payers will be required to take all comers, it's called Community Rating. That's the customers.

Sidebar - The law put in place by the "Party of Science" is completely ignorant of math. Here's an example: You can show up after having smoked cigarettes for 50 years and have lung cancer and you will be provided health care coverage at the same rate as a healthy person and at no more than 3x the rate of a healthy 20 year old. However, if you show up as a smoker but DON'T have cancer yet, you pay 50% more because you will statistically eventually cost the system money. That's dumb.

The services that must be included in health care coverage are very specific and very broad.

Prices for services are pre-determined. The prices are supposed to be set by the Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) but they can't find anyone willing to serve on the Board. So Kathleen Sebelius is doing it.

Margins are specified, if a health care provider doesn't spend the required percentage on care the difference must be rebated to the client base.

Look it up. If I'm wrong please let me know.

I'm not directing this at any particular person but before folks rattle on about ObamaCare they ought to know what community rating means, who Kathleen Sebelius is and what purpose the IPAB serves. And some knowledge of any of the other dozens of elements to the bill. Otherwise they're just blowing smoke.