Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray
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And E
(LunchANDYnner)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/20/2013 17:06:33 MDT Print View

I recently ordered some off amazon and treated some of my jackets with it.
Short story, it works really well.

It comes in an aerosol can, with 10oz of product for only about $10, so much cheaper than reviveX, etc. And get better spread/coverage on synthetics. It does dribble a bit as you spray it though.

I chose this particular one to try because they rate/guarantee the DWR to last 25 washes. Also, I've never had fully satisfactory results on my Stoic Vaporshell (terrible, terrible factory DWR that wets out even in a light drizzle) with nikwax wash in or spray on nor with ReviveX spray despite meticulously cleaning jacket (and cleaning the washer) first in sport wash and following all directions for treatment. Every time I treated the Vaporshell, I'd hold it under the shower with water on medium pressure and it'd still be as if there was hardly any DWR at all, with the face fabric immediately soaking up water (My fiancé and i have a couple other jackets that shrug it off like there was never any water to begin with).

After a fresh wash and treatment with the Atsko Permanent Water Guard, and heat set with dryer, I'm happy to say it survived the shower head test! Time will tell if it really is as durable as Atsko claims.

Also, one can/bottle was enough to treat the Vaporshell and two hooded windshirts.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/20/2013 18:25:17 MDT Print View

Thanks for the info An-D. Yeah, i wish Stoic had their DWR process changed for the Vaporshell. Pretty good jacket overall, but crappy DWR.

I'm interested to try it out sometime. I've heard that Granger's is one of the best and longest lasting DWR's. Besides price, what made you go with the Atsko over Grangers?

Rick Adams
(rickadams100) - M
atsko on 09/20/2013 20:30:35 MDT Print View

My local ace hardware stocks this. Works well. Be careful with overspray. Dont ask how I know.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/20/2013 22:46:56 MDT Print View

Don't forget: if the fabric is dirty, NOTHING works. And you won't see the dirt.
Atsko Sports Wash per the instructions on the bottle before you spray is the message.

Do not try to substitute silicone spray for fluorocarbon DWR!!!! Disaster awaits.

Cheers
PS: some other brands also work.

Edited by rcaffin on 09/21/2013 03:49:40 MDT.

And E
(LunchANDYnner)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
dwr choice on 09/21/2013 01:12:02 MDT Print View

I picked it because you get more product per can (10oz vs 5 or so) and they claimed it was good for 25 washes. Plus, I already use their sport wash.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/21/2013 18:19:01 MDT Print View

Tried search for the above on Amazon and got a multitude of sprays with different combinations of the words in "Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray," but nothing the same.
Could you narrow it down a bit? Thanks.

P.S. Tried Polartec wash-in DWR for my rain top, but from An-D's experience, and my own with Nikwax wash-ins, doubt that the DWR was restored. Sounds like this product might do it, if I could figure out which product it is.

Michael K
(chinookhead) - F - M
Re: Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/21/2013 18:52:05 MDT Print View

Roger, can you please explain your tip? Are you saying that this is a silicone spray and that you should 1st apply some sort of fluorocarbon DWR before this kind of silicone DWR spray can work properly?

And E
(LunchANDYnner)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Fluorocarbon on 09/21/2013 20:32:14 MDT Print View

The Atsko is a cross linked Fluorocarbon spray, so it works well, and is heat set. When you wash it and dry it, the drying will reheat the DWR and it will link together again to restore the DWR properties.

As for the specific bottle I bought:

http://www.amazon.com/Seal-Water-guard-Aerosol-Water-Proofing/dp/B000B13VHC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379817052&sr=8-1&keywords=atsko+permanent+water+guard

It's called Sno-Seal Permanent Water Guard (but is a product of Atsko, my appologies for the confusion).

I also bought the Extreme Water Guard, but have yet to try that out.

Rick Adams
(rickadams100) - M
sil spray on 09/21/2013 21:10:39 MDT Print View

I think roger was referring to my post about atsko silicone spray. I was confused about the dwr product, didn't know they made it. The silicone product is apparently not good for modern dwr. It is great for tents and goodwill style outer wear for scout snow camping and stuff like that. Two different products. Snow seal is a third product from the same company.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Fluorocarbon on 09/21/2013 22:28:36 MDT Print View

I wonder what the differences are between the Extreme Water Guard and the Permanent stuff is suppose to be?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/22/2013 00:53:00 MDT Print View

> Roger, can you please explain your tip? Are you saying that this is a silicone spray
> and that you should 1st apply some sort of fluorocarbon DWR before this kind of
> silicone DWR spray can work properly?

Aaarrgghh, NO!

Silicone spray leaves a soft and easily rubbed off finish. The silicone polymrs simply does not stick. It might be OK for suede street shoes, but it is NOT for back-country gear (with one exception).

The exception is a silnylon fabric. You can hit this with a silicone spray for a small improvement. You could for instance spray your silnylon tarp or tent once a year with silicone. Pitch the tent, spray, and leave sitting in the sun for a few hours to bond. Yes, surprisingly, silicone polymer does bond best to silicone polymer!

Now, techie details.

Silicone coating and fluorocarbon coating are fundamentally incompatible. If you use silicone spray on a fluorocarbon-treated fabric it won't stick, but it will prevent you from ever successfully applying any fluorocarbon DWR in the future. So never, ever mix them!

If you try to refresh the DWR without washing all the dirt off first, all you will do is DWR the dirt. The fabric won't improve. In fact, there will be (is) all sorts of 'stuff' on the fabric, even if it looks 'clean', which will be killing the DWR treatment. This includes skin oils!

If you wash your DWR fabric in the washing machine with ordinary laundry powder or detergent, you will be killing it. Read the label: apple scent, fabric whitener, bulking agent, enzymes ... and they do not rinse out! They stay on the fabric and kill the DWR. Stuff like Atsko Sports Wash is a pure detergent with NO additives, and it will rinse clean.

In fact, it has been recommended that in some cases you may need to run the fabric through the full wash cycle with Sports Wash twice, just to strip off all the gunk from trees, skin and washing powders. A dummy run through the washing machine to get the washing machine tub clean is sometimes needed! It's a hassle, sure, but it works, and not getting the fabric clean first ensures rapid failure.

Oh yes - you must do the heat cycle when refreshing the DWR. The heat is what bonds the new fluorocarbon to the fabric and the old fluorocarbon. Read the label.

Cheers

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/22/2013 01:12:01 MDT Print View

Theoretically speaking, would it be possible to refresh a fluorocarbon DWR in the backcountry via a one half clear and one half black plastic bag, or full black bag put in full Sun for awhile and then maybe shaking it up while heated up? (in a warm climate, or in Summer for most others)

Or does it require a much higher heat than that can generate to properly refresh such a DWR?

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/22/2013 01:25:17 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/22/2013 04:22:51 MDT Print View

Hi Justin

They often recommend using a tumble drier on medium heat.

Cheers

And E
(LunchANDYnner)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
15-200 on 09/22/2013 11:59:52 MDT Print View

I think the temp needs to be somewhere between 150-200 F.

Duane Klinge
(ksc)
Great Product on 09/22/2013 14:41:25 MDT Print View

I have same results that An-D had with same Stoic jacket and the Snowseal DWR spray treatment. It seems to really improves repellant properties.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
the spray on 09/22/2013 18:26:01 MDT Print View

An-D,
Thanks very much for the clarification. Think I may wash the jacket again with the Sports Wash before applying the spray. But will wait a bit to see what you may have to say about the Extreme.

Thanks again.

And E
(LunchANDYnner)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
re: extreme Spray on 09/22/2013 21:14:36 MDT Print View

It may be awhile before I try the extreme spray as I've treated my jackets already with the permanent water guard. That was good enough too best off water from the shower and I will see how it does in the field this coming weekend if it rains during an overnight.

They're only $9 a bottle, so a pretty good deal.

I'd recommend running your wash with hot water with no clothes or any detergent, or a wash cycle with other clothes with sport wash you aren't going to treat to get any detergent buildup that may be between the drums of the washer. Then wash your jackets in sport wash. That's what I did.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Atsko Permanent Water Guard DWR spray on 09/23/2013 06:54:13 MDT Print View

Thank you for the reply's Roger and An-D. I don't know much about fluorocarbon based DWR's as until currently i've only ever used Nikwax.

Does anyone know if Nikwax's claim about being more environmentally friendly/less toxic in comparison to fluorocarbon's is true or not? If realistically, there is not much of a difference, i would rather go with the latter since i've heard it lasts longer.

And E
(LunchANDYnner)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
wax based on 09/23/2013 08:07:51 MDT Print View

I believe nikwax is wax based, vs chemical. However.... There's really is no such thing as environmentally "friendly" in most cases... Just less environmentally harmful.

Now, if the fluorocarbon based ones are slightly worse for the environment initially, I believe it'll make up for it by lasting longer (not needing as frequent reapplication as nikwax).

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: wax based on 09/23/2013 09:20:05 MDT Print View

That may be true An-D, but body toxicity is also a consideration for me personally (having had, and still having to some extent some health issues). I've come to understand that our skin can absorb a lot more than is given credit for. But if used on an outer, shouldn't be much of an issue i suppose.