Fresh Air with Terry Gross
Display Avatars Sort By:
Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:50:59 MDT Print View

It means they're only being "honest" about what they already know we know. If that's what you can even call honesty. There's a big difference. And even then we're only getting a fraction of it.

I've never understood why we would expect anything different.

Power, resources, violence, global geopolitics, militaries, money....To make believe that the people in charge of all of this can or will play by the rules is flat out delusional.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:53:59 MDT Print View

If they were "honest" they'de figure out a way to let Snowden back

Slap on wrist, maybe a small amount of time in a "country club prison" or home detention

Demand that he turn over every thing he has

Have him testify to congress, both publically and in private for classified stuff

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:55:36 MDT Print View

--> xNoMaNx

Why is spying on a foreign leader worth an apology? It doesn't make sense. If it was wrong to spy on foreigners than what about citizens? The statements from Big Brother are not making any sense.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:57:51 MDT Print View

"I've never understood why we would expect anything different. "

I guess that is where we part. While I don't think that I am delusional ( to some degree I am sure...) I am not ok with the extent of this collection of data of all citizens. The problem really is how everyone is just accepting this.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:00:46 MDT Print View

"If they were "honest" they'de figure out a way to let Snowden back

Slap on wrist, maybe a small amount of time in a "country club prison" or home detention

Demand that he turn over every thing he has

Have him testify to congress, both publically and in private for classified stuff"



Demand that he turn over everything he has? In that case I am glad he is in Russia and that what he knows he already turned over to those ( Greenwald ) that are releasing this for the world to see.
Al least the rest of the world isn't seeing this the way we are here, thankfully!

If had always taken abuse of power ( and injustice) lying down the way we are doing now....we would be in a much worse place now.


Edited to add: @Craig, did you listen to the interview that is linked in the OP? If not, I strongly encourage you to.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/29/2013 18:10:40 MDT.

Jeremy B.
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:10:28 MDT Print View

Is it Greenwald that's releasing the data? From the nature of the leaks, I'd have thought it was Putin getting a good return on his investment.

I see two issues here: Snowden's access reflects poorly on NSA's competence, and clearly domestic spying has gone way beyond what is legal or appropriate. I don't mind that Merkel's phone was tapped; that's what the NSA is supposed to do.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:14:30 MDT Print View

Ok, so now that all of us know they're spying on everyone, so what?
We're going to vote the military/industrial/surveillance/profit machine out of office?

Right.

The people doing this to us know that nobody is giving up the technology that makes all of this possible.

How could a government resist when all of the architecture is right in place to make it easier than it has ever been? To think they used to actually have to get their hands dirty breaking into people's offices and following them to lunch.

Concerning everyone just "accepting this", what exactly are people supposed to do?
Get outraged? At who? Raise a stink until Obama apologizes and promises it won't happen again? Are we to trust some politician's assurances that everyone is behaving now? I doubt many elected officials even know about a fraction of what the NSA/CIA/Pentagon do.

Edited by xnomanx on 10/29/2013 18:25:49 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:44:02 MDT Print View

Yes, Kat, I did listen to the interview.

I'm somewhat surprised that even Gellman admits to being surprised by the extent of the PRISM program. Perhaps my standards/expectations are pretty low. It seems obvious to me that when an entire society does everything digitally that a government would be monitoring everything. It's too easy. So what if it's against the Law, the Constitution, or anything else we can invoke. None of those things have ever stopped governments from doing far worse than spying.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:02:03 MDT Print View

Let's at least be thankful that there are whistleblowers out there and others that are letting people know. The best I think we can do is keep asking questions, keeping our eyes on it and yes, be outraged and letting it be known.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:09:18 MDT Print View

and be thankful that Snowden and company are so clever dribbling the info out over long time to keep it in view

Jeremy B.
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:15:56 MDT Print View

Ok, I finally read the transcript. Interesting. (Now I'm going to geek out for a bit.)

So he's separated the key and the data. Eliminating either would make the "problem" go away, which argues for multiple copies of the data. Multiple copies of the key makes the data too vulnerable, but a single copy makes him too vulnerable. My guess is that many people have copies of the data, and he used a standard secret-sharing technique to split the key among a number of trusted people, with a smaller group needed to reconstitute the key. (I.e. too many to disappear, yet not so vulnerable that a single car accident loses the key.)

I've always assumed the tapping was done via a direct tap on the backbones, rather than with too much corporate involvement. Then again, I do recall hearing many years ago about the telco-located boxes for phone taps being exploitable by organized crime, and I guess the telco counts as a private company.

(Time to hatch a scheme to leverage HIPAA to encourage country-wide encrypted email adoption.)

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:59:29 MDT Print View

Hi Kat,

When i let myself dwell on all this, i do sometimes get angry, but in a sense i'm with Craig on this one.

What are we supposed to do? We can't vote our way out of this (well many thought we did this with Obama) and we can't protest our way out of this.

The only other option is out right revolution, but would that really be feasible? In a time when technology can allow certain people and groups to pretty much tap into any communication and spy so completely on us, forming a revolution without being found out ahead of time would be extremely hard to do, especially to recruit the numbers needed for a real revolution. And those numbers simply aren't there to begin with anyways.

But yes, i am grateful for people like Snowden. Wish there were more. If there were a lot more people like him, then something lasting might be able to get done. Ultimately though, it's a collective consciousness issue. Until the majority of people change their ideals and ways of living to the more positive and loving and less materialistic--corrupt systems, groups, and leaders will keep arising.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
What to do on 10/29/2013 20:07:26 MDT Print View

"What are we supposed to do? We can't vote our way out of this (well many thought we did this with Obama) and we can't protest our way out of this. "


You don't have to do anything. Craig does not either; he has a family with young kids and a life to live. What I suggest you do not do is discourage others from keeping this in the spotlight. That is all.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Link on 10/29/2013 20:22:48 MDT Print View

For you Justin. My daughter just showed me this video .
There is hope for what you are envisioning. Very touching.
I am not meaning this as a joke, btw, it just gives me hope for the future.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/342604/10/Viral-video-Emotional-baby-Too-cute

Edited by Kat_P on 10/29/2013 20:30:29 MDT.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
What we can do on 10/30/2013 06:32:04 MDT Print View

We can do lots of things. We vote with our dollars every day. We get to elect a new representative every two years. I don't believe that simply because the technology exists that it is natural to assume the govt will vacuum it all up. It's highly cost-inefficient. I take issue that this type of spying has been done at all times by all governments. It's not basic human nature to spy on each other. It's basic human nature to respect each other's privacy. That was the whole purpose of the constitution - to clearly set out the boundaries of what government could and could not do. The difference between giving one's data to a private company vs. giving it (unwillingly) to the government is that private companies do not have police forces, court systems and prisons to come after you with if they don't like your data.

Edited by Winterland76 on 10/30/2013 08:06:39 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 07:20:31 MDT Print View

Very well said James.

Snowden:
"Even if you are not doing anything wrong, you are being watched and recorded. The storage capability of these systems increases every year consistently by orders of magnitude. They can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you have ever made, every friend you have even discussed something with, and attack you on that basis....to derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer."

You may not be concerned with the current administration having this information and doing anything harmful with it, but in the future you could become concerned.

As Gellman described :" we are living increasingly behind one-way mirrors in which we are more and more transparent to our government and to large corporate interests and they are more and more opaque to us because the surveillance is accompanied by extraordinary levels of secrecy.”

So, at least, we ought to encourage those that are out there asking questions.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Link on 10/30/2013 09:00:03 MDT Print View

Thank you for sharing that Kat, definitely was very touching to watch. There are some very interesting and very mature consciousnesses coming in, more and more and for the real revolution to end all revolutions (that of the heart). Its these who will be the future organizers and facilitators (not so much "leaders" as we think or call it now, as it will be a more cooperative leadership with them), and i'm not as pessimistic as i may seem on the surface. I just don't think our main problems can be solved politically as much as on a consciousness level--and there is a lot of work going into that behind the scenes.



James wrote, "We get to elect a new representative every two years."

I suppose to some extent, yet really good choices seem to be really slim pickings in that area too (at least in my state that i know more concretely about). Jerry is right about one thing, until we take big money out of the picture of politics, no major change is going to happen, and our choices will be between seemingly lesser evils as often is, and not people of real integrity, real ethics, real strength of spirit who will stand up to those powers of monies. One of the few in recent history seems to have been Dennis Kucinich.

But isn't that sort of a catch 22 at this point? We may request our representatives to make changes in policy to take big money out of politics, but will they really vote on it? Isn't that one of the reason why many of them became politicians to begin with--for the various "perks"?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 09:45:55 MDT Print View

So what should we not spend our dollars on and who should we vote out of office to end the spying on US citizens?

Of the 16 intelligence agencies in this country that we know about, how many of the people working for them do we get to elect?

Do we start mass boycotts of AT&T, Google, Verizon, etc.?

And we find new providers of these services and take them for their word that their not storing and handing over all of our information? Everyone assumed their privacy was already protected with these people. How are we to trust anyone's claims in light of what's been coming out?

____________________

"I take issue that this type of spying has been done at all times by all governments. It's not basic human nature to spy on each other."

If it's not human nature then why are humans so good at doing it? Another side of human nature: lust for power, control, and wealth. Of all the depraved human strategies to attain these three things, spying is pretty benign.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 10:08:58 MDT Print View

Becoming informed and asking questions is a start. Acting like this is no news and just the way it is, is exactly what they are counting on. I understand feeling powerless here, believe me, yet I believe that there is a tipping point. News and media will report on what people want to read.


And here is a good read:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/nov/21/snowden-leaks-and-public/?page=1

Edited by Kat_P on 10/30/2013 10:21:25 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 11:30:26 MDT Print View

getting mad, sticking head out window and yelling "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" is a start

(except in the movie I forget what he was mad about, getting fired or something?)