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Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 19:50:01 MST Print View

This gives Obama a bit of credit and criticism.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/12/nsa-report-white-house-the-good-and-the-bad.html?mobify=0

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
On Salon. "Put the NSA on trial" on 12/29/2013 11:52:09 MST Print View

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/put_the_nsa_on_trial/?utm_content=bufferc9522&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Thank you Snowden on 01/02/2014 22:56:30 MST Print View

For bringing out in the open the illegal operations of the NSA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?_r=1&


Edited.
I do hope to cause the apologists some discomfort.

Edited by Kat_P on 01/02/2014 23:05:07 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 11:01:31 MST Print View

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/09/nsa-gchq-illegal-european-parliamentary-inquiry?CMP=twt_fd

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 12:31:02 MST Print View

Hi Kat,

Just wanted to say that i appreciate your dedication to this subject and the links that you are providing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 16:11:44 MST Print View

Hi Justin, thank you. I am at home with an injured foot, doing a lot of reading and there are so many articles of interest that are not easy to come by if only checking the major media outlets. Others have pointed out that doing this isn't really changing anything, and I think they have a good point. I still feel that giving links to informative articles may spark an interest in a couple of people.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 16:54:36 MST Print View

"Others have pointed out that doing this isn't really changing anything..."

Bringing an issue up may result in change, along with everyone else that thinks it's important. You never know what effect it will have. Doing nothing won't change anything...

The "Occupy" movement seems to have faded away, yet now Obama is out there saying the #1 issue is inequality between the wealthiest few and the rest of us.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
NSA has collected almost 200 million text messages a day. on 01/16/2014 15:00:02 MST Print View

Extracting contacts, locations and credit card details.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/16/nsa-collects-millions-text-messages-daily-untargeted-global-sweep



And, by the way, according to ACLU the soon to come changes to the NSA will actually solidify the worst aspects of this mass surveillance, but it will be presented in a way that anyone without an inquiring and critical mind will put aside the minimal concerns they barely had.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
First step, long way to go on 01/17/2014 12:04:49 MST Print View

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/01/17/a-good-first-step-but-the-fundamental-argument-remains-unresolved/



One of the problems being that the discussion shifted to "where " and "how" to store the metadata collected on all US citizens...instead of "when did we, as a country, decide we will allow this? ".

I have said this before, but anything of this magnitude should have never happened without a national discussion.


Edited to add a link to how the ACLU grades this "reform"

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/where-does-president-stand-nsa-reform


And Greenwald at the Guardian, also in response to this morning's ├╝ber patriotic display

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/17/obama-nsa-reforms-bulk-surveillance-remains


And a good piece on msnbc

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/time-end-the-surveillance-state


And Barton Gellman's response to the "reforms"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obamas-restrictions-on-nsa-surveillance-rely-on-narrow-definition-of-spying/2014/01/17/2478cc02-7fcb-11e3-93c1-0e888170b723_story.html



On Politico " President Obama embraces George W. Bush's anti-terror tactics"



http://www.politico.com/story/2014/01/president-obama-national-security-102334.html?hp=l6

Edited by Kat_P on 01/17/2014 19:24:30 MST.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: First step, long way to go on 01/18/2014 10:07:20 MST Print View

Window dressing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 06:01:23 MST Print View

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/23/politics/nsa-telephone-records-privacy/



And this excellent article on the "new normal".




http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/the-war-on-terrors-authoritarian-template/

Edited by Kat_P on 01/24/2014 06:05:43 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 07:50:11 MST Print View

Jian Ghomeshi on "Q" interviewed couple (the Raines) that broke in and stole FBI documents:
http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2014/01/14/activists-who-robbed-fbi-office-share-little-known-story/

This revealed how J Edgar Hoover illegally blackmailed people like Martin Luther King Jr., John F Kennedy, and practically every other U.S. politician. He saw "communists" everywhere - kept files on practically everyone.

If those people had not broken in and illegally stole documents, we would likely not know about it now - like Snowden.

The Raines were private citizens without security clearances, Snowden violated his security clearance - so I can see how the authorities are freaked out more in the Snowden case. There are legitimate secrets that shouldn't be revealed.

If a J Edgar Hoover had access to NSA data, he could do much more harm than back then because data is so much more accessible.

Nobody has used the NSA data (yet) to blackmail anyone or construct files on citizens that have strong political opinions, so in this sense, the NSA scandal isn't so bad.

The Raines can now go public because statute of limitations has run out. Is there a statutue of limitations that would ever free Snowden?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 07:54:19 MST Print View

"Nobody has used the NSA data (yet) to blackmail anyone or construct files on citizens that have strong political opinions, so in this sense, the NSA scandal isn't so bad."


I disagree. We do not know what is currently being done with the data and more importantly, what could be done with it in the future.
Also, it is disappointing to see the majority of the left either defending or minimizing this outrageous attack on civil liberties ( or the drone wars ..) Had this happened ( the exposure part) during a Republican presidency, the left would be very vocal, and rightfully so.

I believe that one of the reasons our political system is so bad, is because the people that support a candidate and then elected official, will not speak up agaist them when they should. It is a case of " well....it is still better than the alternative". While that may well be true, it is not enough and has gotten us into worse and worse situations. No matter what , about half the country will support a President; throw in a terrorist threat, or attack, and pretty much everyone rallies behind them.
In a previous post I said that I am not happy with the current president; you changed it and asked me why I do not like Obama. I had high hopes, I was impressed that this country was ready for an African American president. I believe he did mean well when he came into office, even if I did not agree with all his ideas.
I am not an easy person; I am hard on myself and others and if there is one person we should all be hard on, it is the person that holds the highest office of the only word power.

Edited by Kat_P on 01/24/2014 08:11:07 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Leaving on 01/24/2014 08:08:34 MST Print View

I am working for a few hours now and then heading to the GGG.
Be nice while I am gone... :)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 08:23:59 MST Print View

I agree, we don't know what has been done with data. Snowden didn't reveal anything, but maybe he didn't have access to that. The technology has only existed for a few years.

There is definitely a huge potential for abuse, way worse than Orwell or J Edgar Hoover imagined. Thanks to Snowden, maybe we can avoid this.

I agree "drone wars" are bad. Our leaders are "playing checkers instead of chess". If we have superior military weapons, then the opponents will retaliate with "unconventional weapons". Like the North Vietnamese. Or the U.S. when we revolted from Britain. Or the Muslims in the Middle East today. Like the 9/11 attack in New York.

The only solution is to quit using military weapons.

I think the reason our political system is so bad right now is that it's bought off, not that politicians are fearful of being spied on by NSA. NSA is a potential problem if we don't do something about it.

I think Obama has made a few baby steps. If we keep pushing, they will take more steps. They really need to make a deal with Snowden - limited punishment in return for returning to U.S., testifying, giving up any remaining data.

You must have an unrealistic view of what Obama can do. Yeah, he's president, but he needs congress and judiciary to do anything. And the executive branch isn't his puppet either. He can tell people to do things, but then they'll go off and do something else. If you've had experience managing people, even a few people, you've started to figure that out.

I really appreciate all your posts about the NSA, etc. I don't agree 100%, maybe 90% which is pretty good.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Ok on 01/24/2014 08:34:26 MST Print View

Ok, last post for the next couple of days.

I know a president can only do so much, but we can do is
1. Be transparent as he had promised.
2. Forget about the second term. Do the right thing, go for broke , leave a legacy in one term.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ok on 01/24/2014 08:46:40 MST Print View

Regardless of second term, if he loses political support, he won't be able to do anything.

If he is pushing things that other politicians supporting will get them not re-elected, then there will be no support and nothing done and the other party will get into power next election.

In 2010, a lot of Democrats that supported Obamacare were replaced by Republicans.

Everything is political.

If they're 100% political - then they're George Bush - two wars for no reason

If they're 0% political - that's Jimmy Carter. He said decisions would be made based on what was best for the country. Political considerations were ignored. As a result, Reagan was elected and we've endured decades of right wing insanity as a result. A bit of a simplification, but some truth to that...

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Ok on 01/24/2014 10:16:59 MST Print View

>>Nobody has used the NSA data (yet) to blackmail anyone or construct files on citizens that have strong political opinions,

Hahahaha such optimism, jerry. :)

Kat, whenever you get back around, could you say what you mean by "most of the left" that you have seen? I suspect "the left" I see is more left than most of it, and I see basically zero defense of the NSA. Are you talking officials, ordinary citizens you talk to...?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Ok on 01/26/2014 14:33:43 MST Print View

Hi Spelt,
You did catch me in a sweeping statement that I may not be able to back up , but I will try.
For one, I follow the articles and publications of a number of journalists and activists on the left, including Chase Madar, Kevin Gosztola and Rania Khalek, that are reporting on NSA activities, freedom of the press as well as drone wars and our involvement in the Middle East. I have posted links to some of their writings on this thread. They are not alone in pointing out what they call the "disturbing " silence of the left when it comes to government surveillance, innocent lives lost to our drone wars and the tenuous situation in the Middle East.
I am only repeating myself here, but the more vocal folks on the left on this forum, are either ignoring these issues or giving our elected officials a pass .
Were we under a republican presidency, these apologists would rightfully make a big stink.
By the way, where are the pacifists? I long for the days when people demonstrated against wars...

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok on 01/26/2014 16:09:29 MST Print View

Well, I wasn't asking you to back it up in any challenging sense, just more wondering where you're seeing it and by extension what you consider "the left." I consider most all national level "liberal" politicians to be centrist at best, but it is true that they are characterized as "the left" just b/c they are Democrats. By that measure the response of "the left" has been disgraceful. I do not think this is a failure of leftist ideals so much as a misapplied label: American Democratic politicians are, by and large, neoliberal imperialists with a kinder view towards sexual autonomy than Republicans. This is not to take a moderate's cop-out and call them the same, but what differences there are are not usually in the realm of foreign policy or domestic surveillance. FDR, hero of "the left", authorized the Japanese internment camps, after all. The U.S. has a terrible track record in this area. I think the response from the official "left" is par for the course.

I'm not sure if you're counting me in the "more vocal" lefties here, but it's true that while I read Chaff, I don't often post. I do discuss politics elsewhere, and sign what petitions I can, and write letters to representatives. Not sure what else you would expect an ordinary citizen to do, and you can't be sure that others you might see as silent aren't active in ways you don't know about. If you're talking about people who are lefty, who post, and who soft-pedal this issue, I have no defense for them. I am very much against surveillance. Although I admit I feel some despair about the possibility of actual change, I would hope whatever comments I've made have not given the impression I am defending anyone in power who is defending the NSA's actions.