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Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Unconstitutional on 12/16/2013 12:18:43 MST Print View

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: Midwest
amnesty? on 12/16/2013 13:44:34 MST Print View

You're welcome Kat. One more:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25399345

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: Midwest
federal ruling against mass telephony data collection on 12/16/2013 17:30:56 MST Print View

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/12/historic-ruling-federal-judge-declares-nsa-mass-phone-surveillance-likely

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Unconstitutional on 12/16/2013 18:17:54 MST Print View

What took so long. Unfortunately we know where this will end up.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Unconstitutional on 12/17/2013 08:38:21 MST Print View

From the NY times

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/opinion/a-powerful-rebuke-of-mass-surveillance.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/18/2013 19:08:35 MST Print View

A glimmer of hope and common sense.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/nsa-metadata-report-terrorism-snowden

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/18/2013 19:51:49 MST Print View

Doesn't go anywhere near far enough. But maybe there is a little momentum building.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/18/2013 20:17:57 MST Print View

That's what I am hoping for, the momentum...but I agree that the changes are very minor and most likely will not include nearly enough oversight. Any organization with this much power is not going to give any of it up easily.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/19/2013 21:14:03 MST Print View

We still need to discriminate from surface actions and play acting for the public and real change.

That's the problem with black ops type stuff to begin with, it's so secretive and compartmentalized that it doesn't really answer to anyone.

Likely such things will just keep on going as is, perhaps with some other individuals or groups. If NSA and such won't do it themselves, they will hire private corporations to do it for them.

Such is the world and especially this country in the grand scheme.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Officials defense of metadata collection is unraveling on 12/20/2013 07:23:27 MST Print View

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-defenses-of-nsa-phone-program-may-be-unraveling/2013/12/19/6927d8a2-68d3-11e3-ae56-22de072140a2_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Obama's disappointing response on 12/20/2013 22:08:44 MST Print View

Not surprised, really

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/opinion/mr-obamas-disappointing-response.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 08:56:41 MST Print View

I was driving down the road so I listened to his news conference on NPR, wondering if Katrina would be satisfied : )

He said that no damage had been done to anyone, like someone put in jail

I used to talk to Soviet emigree. He made some innocuous comments about the government, complaining. Someone heard, reported it, and made life hell so he left the country. If the NSA was using data to punish or reward people for political statements, then the program would be much worse.

Obama, FISA court judges, NSA people,..., are all in the same spot, if some terrorist event happens that could have been prevented by listening, then they'll be screwed.

Maybe Obama will make some reasonable changes. Maybe public response and Snowden's clever slow release of information will motivate Obama and congress to do more.

Someone asked Obama if there should be a deal with Snowden. Obama said that should be handled by Attorney General - he didn't say that Snowden is a criminal so maybe...

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 09:26:27 MST Print View

"I was driving down the road so I listened to his news conference on NPR, wondering if Katrina would be satisfied"

Does that mean you're satisfied Jarey?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 10:49:02 MST Print View

I think continued pressure by us will result in more control of NSA

I am hoping this public awareness and action will morph into the huge amount of money that has purchased our government, that's a much worse problem

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
No on 12/21/2013 11:00:58 MST Print View

No Jerry, I am far from satisfied.
You may be satisfied and be reassured by Obama's words, but your attempt at minimizing the damage done to our democracy is contributing to the problem. I can only hope hat no one that is reading this thread will be reassured by your words.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: No on 12/21/2013 14:42:43 MST Print View

I agree with you this problem should be fixed.

But, what damage has been done to our democracy? Have any elections been effected or people wrongly put in jail?

This could happen in the future so it's an important problem.

Money in politics has caused different people to be elected president and congressmen. Some of the biggest companies don't pay any U.S. income tax. The cost of healthcare has sky-rocketed to the point where it's screwing up the economy. We have outsourced a lot of business to other countries which is screwing up the economy...

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: No on 12/21/2013 17:42:33 MST Print View

"But, what damage has been done to our democracy? Have any elections been effected or people wrongly put in jail?"

I don't think elections have been affected, but I don't really know.
Have people been wrongly put in jail? Probably, but I have no literature at the moment. Whistleblowers are being treated as traitors and freedom of the press is at great risk at the moment.

There are several ways in which this secret massive data collection has hurt our democracy. The main one is that anything of this scale, where citizens have lost this much privacy, supposedly - and probably originally so- to protect us from terrorists....should have been a national discussion.
I repeat : This should have been a national discussion in which Americans weigh the pros and cons and decide if they agree to this kind of data mining, collecting and storing. The discussion should have involved what is done with the data, if we agree to have it collected. The discussion should have involved what can and cannot be done with it.
None of that happened.

I realize that many are completely ok with not being part of the decision making, letting a few do it all for them, but something of this scale should have never happened without the citizen's consent.
What will happen to all this information remains to be seen but I don't blame those that call this effort "Orwellian". I hope but don't trust that a number of people will end up jailed without due process because of this.

Edited by Kat_P on 12/21/2013 17:54:46 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 18:56:15 MST Print View

Disappointing!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/white-house-tries-to-prevent-judge-from-ruling-on-surveillance-efforts.html?hp&_r=1&

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
NSA surveillance is bad for security on 12/21/2013 18:59:18 MST Print View

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/140214/nadia-heninger-and-j-alex-halderman/tales-from-the-crypto-community#cid=soc-twitter-at-snapshot-tales_from_the_crypto_communit-000000

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 19:46:03 MST Print View

"The panel’s experts concluded that “there has been no instance in which N.S.A. could say with confidence that the outcome would have been different” in a terror investigation without the collection of the telephone data. “Moreover, now that the existence of the program has been disclosed publicly, we suspect that it is likely to be less useful still.”

There is an odd logic only "intelligence" people understand

The illegal surveilance isn't useful but we have to keep it secret or it will be less useful?

You have to root for Snowden because he's outwitting the lot of them : )