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Fresh Air with Terry Gross
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James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
"Free" services like FB on 10/30/2013 13:20:46 MDT Print View

Craig raises many good valid points. I just wanted to counter the "everybody does it, always have, always will" meme. Maybe it's true, maybe not. It's probably human nature for the power-hungry-types who gravitate to things like politics. This is still a fluid situation. Lavabit and SilentCircle founders are getting together to create secure email service.
With most of these "free" services like FB, Yahoo Mail, GMail, what is being sold is you. The NSA can only collect a lot of this information because we hand it over to Silicon Valley in exchange for no promises of privacy. I expect competitors to emerge.
In the meanitime latest bombshell is NSA has been able to surreptitiously break into the server clouds of Google and Yahoo abroad and siphon off data about their users.
Your move, Google and Yahoo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-infiltrates-links-to-yahoo-google-data-centers-worldwide-snowden-documents-say/2013/10/30/e51d661e-4166-11e3-8b74-d89d714ca4dd_story.html?hpid=z1

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
What we can do on 10/30/2013 13:23:05 MDT Print View

I'm not arguing against being informed, but many people confuse "being informed" with rolling up their sleeves and engaging in actual activism.

What is the difference between a person who is informed but does nothing and person who is not informed?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 14:07:07 MDT Print View

"What is the difference between a person who is informed but does nothing and person who is not informed?"

For one, should the occasion arise, the informed person could vote, boycott (or support) and demonstrate.
The uninformed can just go on in bliss.

I don't understand the energy put into discouraging people from talking about this and finding out more. I mean, no one is forcing or asking anyone to do something. But discouraging others from spreading this information is puzzling to me.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 10/30/2013 15:39:49 MDT Print View

"Yes we scan"

I like that. Not the scanning, just the play on words.

Anyway , we (Aussies) are your friends ,weather we like it or not.

This is Pine Gap, right in the middle of our country.
(close to Alice Springs, no you can't visit...)


Pine Gap 1
Pine Gap 2
Guess what they have been doing there since 1970 ?

BTW, 800 people work there, not exactly a small operation.

Edited by Franco on 10/30/2013 15:42:34 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 16:28:28 MDT Print View

Am I discouraging anyone from talking about this?

I share news articles on the topic with my students regularly. Generally, they shrug.

I'm questioning:
A) Now that we know, what are people going to do about it?
B) How much can we realistically expect to change this situation?
C) Are we even able to change this situation?

Perhaps I'm taking a pretty pessimistic tone about the entire issue. That's because I'm very pessimistic about it. We're expecting an institution that time and time again demonstrates itself to be corrupt and morally bankrupt to police itself. If the rule of law, democracy, and the will of the people meant anything to any of these agencies we wouldn't be talking about this.

Yes, an informed person can certainly vote, boycott, and demonstrate. But is anyone here voting, boycotting, or demonstrating? Who (or what) are we voting against? Who do we boycott? Where do we demonstrate and will those in charge of all of this care?

I'm not being sarcastic. These are genuine questions.

As James said above, I certainly hope that, at a minimum, search engines and email providers that don't sell their clients out become more available because of all of this. But I'm still skeptical this will happen as I keep reading story after story about how the NSA and other agencies required "secure" providers to leave them a backdoor.

Edited by xnomanx on 10/30/2013 16:37:33 MDT.

Jeremy and Angela
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 10/30/2013 16:39:00 MDT Print View

Re: Pine Gap
Ah, one of the old Echelon stations!

For the Dune fans out there:
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptable. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted.
Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse Dune, Missionaria Protectiva


It's good to see Phil Zimmerman and Jon Callas are involved with the Dark Mail Alliance (the collaboration that Lavabit and Silent Circle are working on). If they are able to create an effective and userfriendly tool that works well with gmail, it would be very easy to bring about the NSA's nightmare of making the Internet "go dark".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/30/lavabit-and-silent-circle-join-forces-to-make-all-email-surveillance-proof/

Unfortunately at present there isn't a practical solution for everyday crypto; most people don't have keypairs, wouldn't know how to use them if they did, and most current tools are not well-integrated.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 18:00:36 MDT Print View

Then why vote, demonstrate, boycott support or discuss anything at all. ....

We deserve what we get.



Edited. To add. Get rid of Feinstein, for one.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/01/2013 07:19:02 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: What we can do on 10/31/2013 19:32:05 MDT Print View

I have been reading several informative articles, some of them Greenwald himself recommended in the last couple of days. Instead of adding posts at the bottom of this thread, I am going to add them to the original post, trying to keep them in one place and avoiding Chaff clutter every time I find some link worthwhile posting.
Occasionally I might bump the thread.

Dave Stoller
(BreakingAway)
Dichotomy... on 11/01/2013 09:14:32 MDT Print View

I hate to drag the other thread into this one but there's an interesting dichotomy at play here.

A lot of people are understandably upset that the government is surreptitiously gathering so much detailed information about us. About everyone really.

Yet not too many people seemed bothered that the same government requires disclosure of just about everything about yourself in order to purchase a product that they require you to buy.

It seems almost as egregious to me.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
The Guardian article on 11/02/2013 16:12:50 MDT Print View

Posted here and in the OP.

"NSA files : decoded. What the revelations mean to you"

A worthy interactive article from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/nov/01/snowden-nsa-files-surveillance-revelations-decoded#section/1

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Dichotomy... on 11/03/2013 12:41:41 MST Print View

You disclose a lot of information when you fill out your 1040.
I have to disclose what charity I gave money if I want to deduct it.
Did you have to fill out a FAFSA? Every apply for mortgage?
Is obtaining insurance any more than that?

I don't remember being asked to include all the people I email and when, all the people I call and when, all the websites I have looked at, everyone who I have sent and received a letter, etc. And this is only what has been disclosed. I am sure every financial transaction has been recorded, indexed and categorized for future use.

Since you don't like these disclosures, where do you stand on the invasive procedures passed by some states on women prior to obtaining constitutionally guaranteed medical procedures?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Dichotomy... on 11/03/2013 18:00:53 MST Print View

Snowden committed treason....he will be tried and will be convicted of being an enemy of the state....watch and learn. There are some secrets that do not need to see the light of day. The NSA are seriously a joke as an org. to have such a low level employee do what he did. As for other countries spying? They do it too....Not everything is black and white....love all the edited posts here....too F'ing funny

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Another article on 11/03/2013 18:24:31 MST Print View

Seventy of the world's leading human rights organizations are writing on on behalf of Edward Snowden and the erosion of rights and freedoms in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/03/uk-reaction-nsa-leaks-human-rights

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Another article on 11/03/2013 18:54:37 MST Print View

who cares^^^ he compromised our national security and could possibly jeopardize lives....HE will pay the price for it at sometime. Of course other groups are looking at him as a hero....drink some more Kool Aid....He is an enemy combatant of our country plain and sinple....bad on the NSA for not vesting him....and no, I an NOT a supporter of this agency. All countries do this to a degree....to ignore THAT fact is pure and simple naive kids. There are many things that we are not privy to info wise. We..... as a country are not in the pipeline with a lot of info ......so to speak. Snowden is not a hero by any means...and there are some things that we should not know/or will not know... Funny to see some real DUMB public foreign affairs polies seeing the light of day....lol

funny conversation with some of you lacking understanding of international politics.

Edited by kennyhel77 on 11/03/2013 18:58:54 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Another article on 11/03/2013 21:17:06 MST Print View

"who cares^^^ he compromised our national security and could possibly jeopardize lives....HE will pay the price for it at sometime. Of course other groups are looking at him as a hero....drink some more Kool Aid....He is an enemy combatant of our country plain and sinple....bad on the NSA for not vesting him....and no, I an NOT a supporter of this agency. All countries do this to a degree....to ignore THAT fact is pure and simple naive kids. There are many things that we are not privy to info wise. We..... as a country are not in the pipeline with a lot of info ......so to speak. Snowden is not a hero by any means...and there are some things that we should not know/or will not know... Funny to see some real DUMB public foreign affairs polies seeing the light of day....lol

funny conversation with some of you lacking understanding of international politics.

Edited by kennyhel77 on 11/03/2013 18:58:54 MST."



I rest my case.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/03/2013 22:56:12 MST Print View

Personally, i think Snowden is a hero of sorts. Anytime you sacrifice yourself, your life, your comfort, your status or image etc, for the truth and for the betterment of others, it's pretty heroic in at least my eyes. Actually the very essence and embodiment of same.

I also think that we need to completely overthrow this current government and larger system and by system, i also mean especially the international banksters. If i thought it had a snow balls chance in h*ll, i would try to start such a revolution myself. Maybe a group of super prodigy hackers, hooked up with good people on the inside could do something, with a lot of support from the masses?

Things are not the way there were even just 30, or 40 years ago, and they were already assassinating people who were, and had the potential of making real positive change in this world.

Now, with the way technology is, how the legal system has gone with certain protective rights being taken away, materially speaking any kind of overt and sudden change or revolution materially would be very, very difficult start up and especially to maintain.

We need an intervention, a strong outside catalyst and introduced variable and i happen to think that is exactly what we will get, and it won't be easy for anyone, but it will weaken those corrupt and manipulating forces enough so that people of good will, idealism, and constructivity can rebuild a better civilization without the heavy weight of those often hard to see puppet strings and shackles (growing more and more visible each and every day though).

But the real change is within each and one of us, within YOU. That's where it starts. Open up to and then radiate out that positivity, and creative forces. It can and does have it's affect though it's more subtle than political activism. Not saying to not do the latter, but without the former, not much real and lasting change will happen.

Again, ultimately it is about and will be about a revolution of the heart. That's where the lasting change for the better will take place and radiate out into all aspects of our human lives, including larger, organized societal structures and constructs like government.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/03/2013 23:01:18 MST.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Circling the Wagons - Very Disturbing on 11/04/2013 04:55:41 MST Print View

Most everyone knows about the "Blue Code of Silence" - an unwritten rule among police officers not to report on a colleague's errors, misconducts, or crimes?

Or the church hierarchy that tries to cover up the sexual misconduct of its clerics?

In both cases, an almost instinctive reflex to protect the organization backfires eventually, often to the greater detriment of the organizations involved. Equally poignant - subsequent reforms and interventions resulting from public exposure ultimately serve to strengthen those organizations - not undermine them - as their leadership might have us believe!!

Outsiders are often bewildered why something so obvious is so hard to grasp by those inside? Well, in the case of Snowden - to the extent the expose involves our country - we Americans are ALL insiders! And we see it here - insiders who are quick to circle the wagons and to demonize the likes of Snowden - rather than aiming their condemnation where it belongs - the overreaching surveillance and hacking being done - unlawfully in certain cases - by certain bureaucrats under a cloud of opacity that runs contrary to what our own government preaches incessantly to the rest of the world.

Yes, bureaucrats will see themselves under attack and will instinctively defend themselves by telling us openness and intervention will undermine all their good works. But I firmly believe that proper procedures, safeguards, and oversight will ultimately benefit both ourselves and our institutions.

I applaud Snowden for his courage in showing a higher loyalty to his country by 'betraying' his own organization when that organization has engaged in unlawful activities that undermine our national integrity!

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 06:27:49 MST Print View

No Kat....you actually don't understand the politcs at hand....but then again, you have an oponion and YOUR opinion is always correct

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 07:40:49 MST Print View

Good read from someone working for the Department of Defense

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/let-me-stress-how-shocking-these-nsa-revelations-are-a-view-from-inside-the-defense-world/281052/



Edited because I first wrote that it was an article written by someone working for the DOD, but it is a letter to the editor published by The Atlantic, and as Doug pointed out, a couple others.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/04/2013 10:03:17 MST.

William Chilton
(WilliamC3) - MLife

Locale: Antakya
Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 09:45:32 MST Print View

"there are some things that we should not know/or will not know..." You shouldn't know that your government agencies are breaking your laws and lying to your representatives in government? And so democracy dies...