Subscribe Contribute Advertise Facebook Twitter Instagram Forums Newsletter
Fresh Air with Terry Gross
Display Avatars Sort By:
Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 09/12/2013 06:01:57 MDT Print View

Interview with Barton Gellman on Snowden.
Well worth listening to.

http://www.npr.org/2013/09/11/221359323/reporter-had-to-decide-if-snowden-leaks-were-the-real-thing


I am continuing to add links to relevant articles here.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/11/the-nsa-is-sharing-data-with-israel-before-filtering-out-americans-information/


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banality-of-systemic-evil/?_r=0

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/legislation/usa-freedom-act-cosponsors.htm

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/nov/21/snowden-leaks-and-public/?page=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/01/opinion/a-journalist-with-a-mission.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/30/lavabit-and-silent-circle-join-forces-
to-make-all-email-surveillance-proof/

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/nov/21/snowden-leaks-and-public/?page=1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/02/sen-obama-warned-about-patriot-act-abuses-president-obama-proved-him-right/?wprss=rss_social-postbusinessonly&Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost&clsrd


http://truth-out.org/news/item/19695-activists-of-color-at-forefront-of-anti-nsa-movement

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-infiltrates-links-to-yahoo-google-data-centers-worldwide-snowden-documents-say/2013/10/30/e51d661e-4166-11e3-8b74-d89d714ca4dd_story.html?hpid=z1

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/feinstein-shows-off-nsa-reform-bill-thats-really-about-the-status-quo/




What this all means to you:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/nov/01/snowden-nsa-files-surveillance-revelations-decoded#section/1



Having an ideological cause can be labeled "terrorism" and get you arrested . November 2nd, 2013
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/02/david-miranda-detained-political-causes





Great read from someone working for the Department of Defense and a couple of others:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/let-me-stress-how-shocking-these-nsa-revelations-are-a-view-from-inside-the-defense-world/281052/



Nov 2nd. New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/world/no-morsel-too-minuscule-for-all-consuming-nsa.html?hp&_r=3&pagewanted=all&


11/4/2013 Author of Patriot Act says NSA abused trust, must be reigned in:

http://news.firedoglake.com/2013/11/04/author-of-patriot-act-says-nsa-abused-trust-must-be-reined-in/


http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-edward-snowden-is-no-traitor/2013/10/21/f9d2ae5a-3a74-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html



11/4/2013 . The UK government has just done to Glenn Greenwald's partner what the U.S. often condemns authoritarian regimes for:

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/04/americas_anti_greenwald_hypocrisy_is_the_new_york_times_a_terrorist_too/



Al Gore:

http://o.canada.com/news/al-gore-predicts-lawmakers-will-rein-in-surveillance-after-snowden-leaks/


A must read in my opinion. Nothing new but explained so well

http://privacysos.org/node/1229



How Feinstein's NSA reform Bill is a big step backward for privacy

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/dianne-feinstein-nsa-intelligence-reform-bill



http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/11/05/shouting_911_in_a_crowded_internet?page=full



http://www.technologyreview.com/news/519336/bruce-schneier-nsa-spying-is-making-us-less-safe/





http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ghcq-targets-engineers-with-fake-linkedin-pages-a-932821.html

Edited by Kat_P on 11/11/2013 09:43:06 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 09/12/2013 23:37:56 MDT Print View

"Well worth listening to."

Indeed. Thank you for sharing. I do disagree with Mr. Gellman some, i do think aspects or levels of the U.S. and some other governments have been co-opted by corrupt, ill intentioned, private groups who are collecting massive amounts of information also to see if and when any revolutions and rebels to their ever tightening system of control and manipulation, may arise.

Mr. Gellman admits that he has been naive before regarding the U.S. government prior to seeing some of this leaked info directly. Just because he got some relatively small slices of info about what's really going on, doesn't mean he's got it all and knows the intents behind same. I think there are a lot of basically good and decent people that work for the government, and i think to some extent, even some of the ones higher up, don't fully know what's going on and whose the real power behind the throne.

But really, it's easy to figure out, follow the money, follow the greed, follow the power...to where it's most accumulated at and even made (the monies). Those with the most money and power, have the most invested in keeping this racketeering game of debt going. And while this is basically true, and they like the system as is, they also aren't completely adverse to the idea of collapse either because they figure it would be easier to institute more full control after the common folks are weakened and culled. Much less people to potentially fight if a major revolution and rebellion happened.

It's the same old lord and serf stuff and system over and over again, just this time more sophisticated, hidden (relatively for now), and because of technology and globalization--much harder to concretely fight.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/12/2013 23:40:13 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Gellman on 09/12/2013 23:47:37 MDT Print View

I actually appreciate that Gellman did not attribute ill intent to this collection of data. The possibility is there, but once you speak like that you lose part of the population that would do well to hear this and take it seriously. Take it any further at this point and you are into conspiracies and no longer taken seriously.
What he lined out is enough to raise concern for all of us.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Gellman on 09/13/2013 00:25:43 MDT Print View

True enough on both points..yet truth is truth, and lessening the extremity of it to make it more appealing to mass consumption...


well we have far too much fast food in the world today as it is. And sooner than later, Ronald McDonald will be knocking at out our doors when he realizes enough people are pissed off about the way things are run (whether they are fully aware or not of how corrupt and gone the system is), and Ronald and his ilk are always in the fear mindset and thus always consider the best defense is a good offense.

What will half and partial truths help then? Who will be ready? Especially if one is laboring under the illusion of, ok, things are bad, but not that bad and we can change things through voting, protests, speaking out, etc, etc.

Sincerely, i hope the best of luck to those folks. But, while in many ways many would label me "liberal", i saw through Obama right from the get go, and i see through the system more and more clearly as time goes on. All the luck in the world won't help people.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/13/2013 00:28:31 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Gellman on 09/13/2013 00:47:15 MDT Print View

A little personal history sort of related to all this. When Obama was first running for office of Presidency, i was involved with an intentional community and briefly lived there. Overwhelmingly the majority of the people that lived there were very "liberal" oriented. I knew a lot of people in that community who worked their butts off in campaigning for Obama. There was so much hope, change was in the air.

Part of me wanted to be hopeful, yet that nagging, quiet intuitive voice that i've learned to listen to more than not, kept telling me, it would be more of the same and it would be sham to deceive people.

So when asked by some members of this intentional community of what i thought and felt about Obama, i felt like i had to relay this, but gently. To say that some were skeptical is an understatement. I tried to keep it generalized and indicated i had nothing against Obama the man and figure head, but that i knew that our government was just far too gone and corrupt and beholden to forces not in the best interest of humanity as a whole, that i had a very, very hard time believing that somebody truly for positive change, someone for humanity as a whole, could get into one of the highest political offices at this point in the game.

So, like i said, i've learned to listen to that quiet and subtle voice of intuition. What i spoke about earlier on this thread, also comes from that same place and again i felt the need to relay it (though not so gently this time).

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/13/2013 00:49:14 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Gellman on 09/13/2013 06:20:34 MDT Print View

"True enough on both points..yet truth is truth, and lessening the extremity of it to make it more appealing to mass consumption..."



You are taking this to another level, which in a way muddies the waters.
I believe Gellman said what he feels confident in, without adding or coming to conclusions based on the facts.

As far as the surveillance program, you and I may speculate and draw conclusions that may or may not be true. To me that is a separate deal.

Edited by Kat_P on 09/13/2013 07:06:23 MDT.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
Oathkeepers Pro-Snowden ad in Pentagon Metro on 09/13/2013 06:57:04 MDT Print View

Oathkeepers has put up a massive billboard at Pentagon Metro Station showing James Clapper as Big Brother, aimed at CIA and DOD employees:
http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/24/oath-keepers-place-massive-pro-snowden-a

Justin, your thoughts echo many of my own re: "at this point in the game ..."
It's important to remember that Edward Snowden is not the first NSA whistleblower. One of the effects of Snowden's leaks is that it makes us realize previous NSA whistleblowers were telling the truth all along - Russell Tice, William Binney, Thomas Drake. William Binney was a 36-yr employee of the NSA and one of their top people. Russell Tice has said repeatedly that he personally saw the wiretap order for Barrack Obama back in 2004 shortly after Obama made a speech at the Dem convention. He also claims to have seen wiretap orders for Dianne Feinstein and Supreme Court judges. In other words, most if not all of our top officials may be compromised.
All these prior whistleblowers made heroic efforts to go through official legal channels and all had their lives ruined as a result, which is why Snowden had to do it the way he did.
A few weeks after the NSA story broke, someone interviewed some former East German Stasi officers about the NSA. One quote stuck with me: "To think that this information, once collected, will not be used, is the height of naivete."
The NSA uses definitions of terms like "collect" and "target" that are completely at odds with how ordinary people use those terms.
We recently found out that the NSA believed that it had the authority to search the telephone records database in order to obtain the 'reasonable articulable suspicion' required to investigate those numbers. Essentially, they were conducting suspicionless searches to obtain the suspicion the FISA court required to conduct searches.
In addition to Glenn Greenwald, EFF.org is doing great work on this. So is Julian Sanchez of the Cato Institute and Amie Stepanovich at EPIC. Follow them on twitter.
The good thing is now we finally know where we stand and it's much worse than even those who have been following the issue for years could have ever imagined.
"It must be difficult for those who have taken authority as truth rather than truth as authority."

Edited by Winterland76 on 09/13/2013 07:01:39 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Oathkeepers Pro-Snowden ad in Pentagon Metro on 09/13/2013 16:08:06 MDT Print View

"The good thing is now we finally know where we stand and it's much worse than even those who have been following the issue for years could have ever imagined."

I'm a pretty suspicious guy when it comes to the good intentions of those in power
these days, but even I was stunned to read the article in the Washington Post referenced in the link below. It has to do with NSA sharing the raw personal data of American citizens with a foreign power. This is the most egregious violation of our 4th Amendment rights that I can imagine.

Comments?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/11/the-nsa-is-sharing-data-with-israel-before-filtering-out-americans-information/

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Oathkeepers Pro-Snowden ad in Pentagon Metro on 09/13/2013 16:54:50 MDT Print View

"The good thing is now we finally know where we stand and it's much worse than even those who have been following the issue for years could have ever imagined."

I'm a pretty suspicious guy when it comes to the good intentions of those in power
these days, but even I was stunned to read the article in the Washington Post referenced in the link below. It has to do with NSA sharing the raw personal data of American citizens with a foreign power. This is the most egregious violation of our 4th Amendment rights that I can imagine.

Comments?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/11/the-nsa-is-sharing-data-with-israel-before-filtering-out-americans-information/




I would like to be able to say that I am not surprised..but I am.
Yes, "stunned" fits the bill.

This ought to not be possible without the informed consent of the American people.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
"Memorandum of understanding" on 09/13/2013 17:16:57 MDT Print View

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/sep/11/nsa-israel-intelligence-memorandum-understanding-document


And a bit more on the LA times


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/09/11/the-nsa-is-sharing-data-with-israel-before-filtering-out-americans-information/


And Democracy Now

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/12/snowden_documents_reveal_nsa_gave_israeli

Edited by Kat_P on 09/13/2013 18:41:46 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Oathkeepers Pro-Snowden ad in Pentagon Metro on 09/14/2013 00:49:58 MDT Print View

Very well said and outlined James.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Oathkeepers Pro-Snowden ad in Pentagon Metro on 09/14/2013 01:14:04 MDT Print View

"Comments?"


In a core respect, i was not surprised at all about this. What i was surprised about was the specifics... Israel..???

First of all, why would the Israeli government want information about Americans to begin with? The only thing i could possibly think of, is to track Islamic and/or Arab Americans with potential negative plans against Israel..????

But even then, something about that connection is quite baffling and feels rather..odd. I mean, after all, US and Israel are allies, have been for a long while. We consistently give more money and aid to that tiny little country than any other. In return, they want to spy on us, maybe it is to see who is anti-Semitic? (I'm joking). Unfortunately, some of the above lends credence to some of the more out there "conspiracy theories" in some ways, since Israel is often mentioned in connection with a lot of these type of theories. Until now, i haven't seriously considered/delved into some of that more extremist stuff, but perhaps it's worth really examining? When the NSA is giving Israel almost full access, carte blanche almost (well legally they are) to the huge mining of data they do on the American people, seems something deeper is going on. Oy Vey, my sphincter hurts from all the bending over...

When do we, and when will we, say enough is enough?


Very generally speaking: Really, anyone who has delved into the 911 building demolitions deeply with an open and critical mind, should not be at all surprised by any current revelations just because we have a different administration than previously. Obama is just a prettier and more believable package--a more serious and better actor.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Oath Keepers. on 09/14/2013 14:01:16 MDT Print View

A bit off topic, but I just wanted to chime in with a shout out for Oath Keepers and their great (non-partisan) organization. I've been a member for years. And for those not familiar with them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2K4-BQYAI
From the Oath Keepers site:

Orders We Will Not Obey

“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their Houses, and Farms, are to be pillaged and destroyed, and they consigned to a State of Wretchedness from which no human efforts will probably deliver them. The fate of unborn Millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this army” – Gen. George Washington, to his troops before the battle of Long Island

Such a time is near at hand again. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the Courage and Conduct of this Army – and this Marine Corps, This Air Force, This Navy and the National Guard and police units of these sovereign states.

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, peace officers, fire-fighters, and veterans who swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic … and meant it. We won’t “just follow orders.”

Below is our declaration of orders we will NOT obey because we will consider them unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral violations of the natural rights of the people. Such orders would be acts of war against the American people by their own government, and thus acts of treason. We will not make war against our own people. We will not commit treason. We will defend the Republic.
Declaration of Orders We Will NOT Obey

Recognizing that we each swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and affirming that we are guardians of the Republic, of the principles in our Declaration of Independence, and of the rights of our people, we affirm and declare the following:

1. We will NOT obey any order to disarm the American people.

The attempt to disarm the people on April 19, 1775 was the spark of open conflict in the American Revolution. That vile attempt was an act of war, and the American people fought back in justified, righteous self-defense of their natural rights. Any such order today would also be an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason. We will not make war on our own people, and we will not commit treason by obeying any such treasonous order.

Nor will we assist, or support any such attempt to disarm the people by other government entities, either state or federal.



In addition, we affirm that the purpose of the Second Amendment is to preserve the military power of the people so that they will, in the last resort, have effective final recourse to arms and to the God of Hosts in the face of tyranny. Accordingly, we oppose any and all further infringements on the right of the people to keep and bear arms. In particular we oppose a renewal of the misnamed “assault-weapons” ban or the enactment of H.R. 45 (which would register and track gun owners like convicted pedophiles).

2. We will NOT obey any order to conduct warrantless searches of the American people, their homes, vehicles, papers, or effects – such as warrantless house-to house searches for weapons or persons.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the use of “writs of assistance,” which were essentially warrantless searches because there was no requirement of a showing of probable cause to a judge, and the first fiery embers of American resistance were born in opposition to those infamous writs. The Founders considered all warrantless searches to be unreasonable and egregious. It was to prevent a repeat of such violations of the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects that the Fourth Amendment was written.

We expect that sweeping warrantless searches of homes and vehicles, under some pretext, will be the means used to attempt to disarm the people.

3. We will NOT obey any order to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to trial by military tribunal.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the denial of the right to jury trial, the use of admiralty courts (military tribunals) instead, and the application of the laws of war to the colonists. After that experience, and being well aware of the infamous Star Chamber in English history, the Founders ensured that the international laws of war would apply only to foreign enemies, not to the American people. Thus, the Article III Treason Clause establishes the only constitutional form of trial for an American, not serving in the military, who is accused of making war on his own nation. Such a trial for treason must be before a civilian jury, not a tribunal.

The international laws of war do not trump our Bill of Rights. We reject as illegitimate any such claimed power, as did the Supreme Court in Ex Parte Milligan (1865). Any attempt to apply the laws of war to American civilians, under any pretext, such as against domestic “militia” groups the government brands “domestic terrorists,” is an act of war and an act of treason.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state, or to enter with force into a state, without the express consent and invitation of that state’s legislature and governor.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the attempt “to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power” by disbanding the Massachusetts legislature and appointing General Gage as “military governor.” The attempt to disarm the people of Massachusetts during that martial law sparked our Revolution. Accordingly, the power to impose martial law – the absolute rule over the people by a military officer with his will alone being law – is nowhere enumerated in our Constitution.

Further, it is the militia of a state and of the several states that the Constitution contemplates being used in any context, during any emergency within a state, not the standing army.

The imposition of martial law by the national government over a state and its people, treating them as an occupied enemy nation, is an act of war. Such an attempted suspension of the Constitution and Bill of Rights voids the compact with the states and with the people.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty and declares the national government to be in violation of the compact by which that state entered the Union.

In response to the obscene growth of federal power and to the absurdly totalitarian claimed powers of the Executive, upwards of 20 states are considering, have considered, or have passed courageous resolutions affirming states rights and sovereignty.

Those resolutions follow in the honored and revered footsteps of Jefferson and Madison in their Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions, and likewise seek to enforce the Constitution by affirming the very same principles of our Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights that we Oath Keepers recognize and affirm.

Chief among those principles is that ours is a dual sovereignty system, with the people of each state retaining all powers not granted to the national government they created, and thus the people of each state reserved to themselves the right to judge when the national government they created has voided the compact between the states by asserting powers never granted.

Upon the declaration by a state that such a breach has occurred, we will not obey orders to force that state to submit to the national government.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the blockade of Boston, and the occupying of that city by the British military, under martial law. Once hostilities began, the people of Boston were tricked into turning in their arms in exchange for safe passage, but were then forbidden to leave. That confinement of the residents of an entire city was an act of war.

Such tactics were repeated by the Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, and by the Imperial Japanese in Nanking, turning entire cities into death camps. Any such order to disarm and confine the people of an American city will be an act of war and thus an act of treason.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

Mass, forced internment into concentration camps was a hallmark of every fascist and communist dictatorship in the 20th Century. Such internment was unfortunately even used against American citizens of Japanese descent during World War II. Whenever a government interns its own people, it treats them like an occupied enemy population. Oppressive governments often use the internment of women and children to break the will of the men fighting for their liberty – as was done to the Boers, to the Jewish resisters in the Warsaw Ghetto, and to the Chechens, for example.

mass execution
Such a vile order to forcibly intern Americans without charges or trial would be an act of war against the American people, and thus an act of treason, regardless of the pretext used. We will not commit treason, nor will we facilitate or support it.”NOT on Our Watch!”

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control” during any emergency, or under any other pretext. We will consider such use of foreign troops against our people to be an invasion and an act of war.

During the American Revolution, the British government enlisted the aid of Hessian mercenaries in an attempt to subjugate the rebellious American people. Throughout history, repressive regimes have enlisted the aid of foreign troops and mercenaries who have no bonds with the people.

Accordingly, as the militia of the several states are the only military force contemplated by the Constitution, in Article I, Section 8, for domestic keeping of the peace, and as the use of even our own standing army for such purposes is without such constitutional support, the use of foreign troops and mercenaries against the people is wildly unconstitutional, egregious, and an act of war.

We will oppose such troops as enemies of the people and we will treat all who request, invite, and aid those foreign troops as the traitors they are.

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies, under any emergency pretext whatsoever.

One of the causes of the American Revolution was the seizure and forfeiture of American ships, goods, and supplies, along with the seizure of American timber for the Royal Navy, all in violation of the people’s natural right to their property and to the fruits of their labor. The final spark of the Revolution was the attempt by the government to seize powder and cannon stores at Concord.

Deprivation of food has long been a weapon of war and oppression, with millions intentionally starved to death by fascist and communist governments in the 20th Century alone.

Accordingly, we will not obey or facilitate orders to confiscate food and other essential supplies from the people, and we will consider all those who issue or carry out such orders to be the enemies of the people.

10. We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

There would have been no American Revolution without fiery speakers and writers such as James Otis, Patrick Henry, Thomas Paine, and Sam Adams “setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.”



Patrick Henry: “Give me Liberty, or Give me DEATH!”

Tyrants know that the pen of a man such as Thomas Paine can cause them more damage than entire armies, and thus they always seek to suppress the natural rights of speech, association, and assembly. Without freedom of speech, the people will have no recourse but to arms. Without freedom of speech and conscience, there is no freedom.
Therefore, we will not obey or support any orders to suppress or violate the right of the people to speak, associate, worship, assemble, communicate, or petition government for the redress of grievances.

— And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually affirm our oath and pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor. Oath Keepers

The above list is not exhaustive but we do consider them to be clear tripwires – they form our “line in the sand,” and if we receive such orders, we will not obey them. Further, we will know that the time for another American Revolution is nigh. If you the people decide that you have no recourse, and such a revolution comes, at that time, not only will we NOT fire upon our fellow Americans who righteously resist such egregious violations of their God given rights, we will join them in fighting against those who dare attempt to enslave them.

NOTE: please also read our Principles of Our Republic We Are Sworn to Defend

More About Oath Keepers

Oath Keepers is a non partisan association of currently serving military, peace officers, fire-fighters, and veterans who will fulfill our oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so help us God.

Our oath is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and not to any political party. In the long-standing tradition of the U.S. military, we are apolitical. We don’t care if unlawful orders come from a Democrat or a Republican, or if the violation is bi-partisan. We will not obey unconstitutional (and thus unlawful) and immoral orders, such as orders to disarm the American people or to place them under martial law. We won’t “just follow orders.” Our motto: “Not on Our Watch!” or to put it even more succinctly, in the words of 101st Airborne Commander General Anthony McAuliffe at the Battle of the Bulge, “NUTS!”

There is at this time a debate within the ranks of the military regarding their oath. Some mistakenly believe they must follow any order the President issues. But many others do understand that their loyalty is to the Constitution and to the people, and understand what that means.

The mission of Oath Keepers is to vastly increase their numbers.

We are in a battle for the hearts and minds of our own troops.

Help us win it.

www.oathkeepers.org

And for those who are skeptical of the battle for our military's hearts and minds, I point you to this current Navy commercial that states "....I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THOSE APPOINTED OVER ME...."

Nothing is said about obeying lawful orders, just complete submission when orders are given.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQYfT2CmCh0

Edited by bigfoot2 on 09/14/2013 14:20:37 MDT.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/14/2013 23:14:25 MDT Print View

So they support the United States constitution? What a bunch of right wing nut jobs...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/17/2013 16:26:42 MDT Print View

That sounds pretty nutty

The government is going to confiscate our property? Put us in detention camps? Blockade cities to turn them into concentration camps?

This is the kind of ideas the Boston bombers listened to that led them to setting off those bombs. And the Oklahoma City bombers.

You spreading these wacky ideas may lead some mentally unbalanced person to violence.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/17/2013 17:36:12 MDT Print View

-Sigh-

Edited by idester on 09/18/2013 09:58:56 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/17/2013 17:50:43 MDT Print View

I think we're regretting interning Japanese-Americans now.

Eminent Domain is very limited. They pay you for your property.

The problem with New Orleans, is we knew what was going to happen, but the government ignored it - too much pressure to cut spending by wasteful government - who wants to spend money repairing levies or preventing wetland loss.

If you say we need to keep an eye on the government and keep it honest, fine, I agree with you.

If you really believe a government conspiracy that will enslave us - wacky!

Wait a second! You're a secret liberal trying to lob me softballs to help make my point : )

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/17/2013 18:02:44 MDT Print View

Jerry,
There are those that fear and believe there are conspiracies. Then there are those that know how history repeats itself and unless we really learn from it, we'll just keep doing it.
It's about preventing concentrated power.
And if you believe that this society is beyond quickly rallying behind someone that will demonize a group and act accordingly, then you and I see things differently.
Years ago I visited a Jewish cemetery in Santa Cruz. To this day I remember the inscription that read " Nothing human is alien to me". Given the right ( or wrong) circumstances we are still capable of horrific acts, unless we understand what it takes to get people to act in certain way , particularly in a group.

Do you care to address the original interview that this thread was based on?
What about our raw data being passed on to a foreign country.

Only addressing the extreme responses to this thread does not seem fair.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/17/2013 18:21:13 MDT Print View

I was just addressing Matthew's conspiracy theories because I think they're more dangerous than any government conspiracy.

I listened to that NPR piece about Snowden at the time. I was hiking on the PCT from McKenzie Pass South. I agree, Snowden was way more hero than criminal.

Some other NPR piece interviewed Daniel Ellsberg who released the "Pentagon Papers" that revealed a bunch of secrets about Viet Nam war that helped turn people against the war. Ellsberg said there was no other way to get his secrets out than releasing them.

Ellsberg said it's the same with Snowden - no other way to get out his information.
Ellsberg thinks Snowden is a hero for sure.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 18:28:37 MDT Print View

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/15/the-banality-of-systemic-evil/?_r=0

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 18:38:24 MDT Print View

Good story

Another thing is, I keep hearing politicians that say they disagree with all the government wiretapping, and they didn't know about it until Snowden released the details.

Or Clapper (CIA director) apologized for lying to congress after Snowden released information that showed Clapper was lying.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 18:40:43 MDT Print View

What I find interesting, although not necessarily on these pages, is that so many people fear the government more than they fear rich and powerful individuals and multinational corporations. At least I do have some sort of redress with the government...there are elections and lets not forget, WE are the government in a democracy.

When wealth is concentrated at the highest levels though, and corporations and individuals can write their own laws and exert such undue influence on the rest of us, and you can convince the rank and file that organizing workers is bad, that criticizing "job creators" is bad, etc, THAT is what scares me. My government? That's me.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 18:42:24 MDT Print View

Thank you, Spelt!

And thank goodness some have it in them to break the rules, even though way too many people instantly call them "criminals".

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 18:45:17 MDT Print View

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Jennifer, I would rather not blame you for this NSA disaster, or for all the wars that this government has gotten us into.
Did you listen to the interview?

Edited by Kat_P on 09/17/2013 18:45:54 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 19:17:37 MDT Print View

I did listen. And Kat, what I would argue is that those wars were not started by our government per se, but by the outsized influence oil companies and other multinationals have on those who make the decisions. We need to take the government back, but not from the hippies and the "freeloaders..." We need to do something to level the playing field and reduce the power that corporations and the wealthy have in this country.

Government should be our friend - it is US. A for profit corporation? All they are interested in is profits and power. And they obtain power by buying the people in our government. THAT is what needs to stop and that is the enemy, not government itself.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 19:30:52 MDT Print View

Never mind.

This always comes back to the same old.

Edited by Kat_P on 09/17/2013 19:51:54 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 19:31:25 MDT Print View

-Sigh-

Edited by idester on 09/18/2013 09:59:30 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 19:36:58 MDT Print View

"What I find interesting, although not necessarily on these pages, is that so many people fear the government more than they fear rich and powerful individuals and multinational corporations."


Perhaps lately there is not so much a divide between these, perhaps politicians on a whole work more for special interests than the people/public?

Who pays them more? We the public, or the special interests? Why do a number of ex politicians and high government officials end up in these huge corporations after their public "service". For example, some former Food and Drug Administration higher ups end up working for and getting obscene salaries from pharmaceutical corporations or places like Monsanto.

Conflict of interest much?

Besides, ultimately you're looking in the wrong direction. The wealth and power of even the biggest corporations is paltry play money to that of international bankers. The same folks who run the so called "'Federal' Reserve" which is not directly part of our public government.

It's privately owned and operated by bankers, and when a private, for profit interest group can print and manufacture money based on their whims alone with no real government oversight (since it's legally outside of same), guess what starts happening to the government below them?

None of this btw is conspiracy theory. I find people often throw around such terms and negative labels quite casually, and often because they really don't want to deal with the deepest problems and core issues because they are so out of our control and potentially frightening to people who value people and the environment over money, power, and status. It is far easier to disown and repress the shadow side of life than deal with it directly.

Ironically, some of the founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson very, very clearly warned us of such potentially disastrous developments in our nation and government. He said essentially to make sure you keep the international bankers out of our business and politics. And perceptive leaders later on, were already starting to deal with and fear it, people like Abraham Lincoln who was one of the very few Presidents who was vocal about his concerns.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/17/2013 19:42:48 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: possibly relevant on 09/17/2013 20:11:02 MDT Print View

+1 Jennifer

Doug, you don't need to be cynical.

In 1920s the government was bought by the super wealthy, "the gilded era"

Then in the 1930s the people moved the government way back towards the people

It's happened before, it can happen again, don't just give up and say it's hopeless

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Oath Keepers. on 09/17/2013 20:16:40 MDT Print View

"That sounds pretty nutty

The government is going to confiscate our property? Put us in detention camps? Blockade cities to turn them into concentration camps?"

Jerry, let's put the above in perspective a bit and use some holistic logic. There is a growing anger in this country, a deep dissatisfaction with the ways our government has developed, how much it's influenced by special interests, and the way the economy is going. This anger/dissatisfaction is fairly universal in that you can find it among various political categories whether liberal, conservative, right wing, whatever. For example, there are plenty of people who would fall in the "liberal" category, who really have come to dislike and feel cheated by the Obama admin. Some people were very, very supportive of him in the beginning--people like Matt Damon for an example.

More and more people are starting to wake up to, understand, and are getting concerned with the reality that we can't just "vote" our way to change, revolution, and reform in this country. The American dream on many levels, is broken.

Combine that with a ever widening divide between the poor and the wealthy, and a shrinking middle class. Well, you got a recipe for a developing revolution movement. We've been seeing this break out more, like the Occupy movement. I had a friend involved with that in Richmond VA, and it became very clear that the local government did not give a shite about people's rights but rather enforcing status quo. That's why, on Halloween night, while most everyone was gone from camp, they decided to bulldoze and destroy all those people's property. Earlier, the local politicians made it seem like, "oh, it's ok you guys are protesting, as long as you do it peacefully" That was just a deceptive ploy. They had no intention of putting up with any of this.

In short, the people in power have a very good grasp and sense of what might come with combination of factors that may develop into a perfect sociopolitical storm, and quite frankly, they are scared crapless of such potential and what it means for them and their sense of self preservation. Never underestimate materialists fear of loss of wealth, power, or physical life--it's what they are obsessed with and devote their lives too.

Jerry, the writing is on the wall in so many ways and so many places but so many people like yourself refuse to see it.

And when they think it's getting close enough, and that chaos will break out, they will crack down, and crack down hard BEFORE it culminates. All the ammunition and hollow point bullets they are buying up, all their pushes and measures for greater gun control, regulation and tracking, etc, etc. is going towards that crescendo that they see as very probable.

I mean, what's going to happen to the poor people in this country when gas goes up to 5 dollars or more a gallon, or food becomes ever more expensive as it's starting to. Keep in mind, in the next couple of years because of droughts and other issues, food is going to sky-rocket. When basic necessities can't be met, that anger will boil over. This stuff has happened throughout history, time and time again, and always due to the concentration of wealth and power, misuse of that wealth and power and with a severe lack of a brother/sisterhood of humanity being present in such groups.

Maybe it's time to wake up?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Lost conversation on 09/17/2013 21:44:35 MDT Print View

And as usual a reasonable conversation is lost to the extremes. Both of them. Or more than two.
The usual folks seizing the moment to beat the same old drum.
Sorry, I am tired, physically, and of hearing the same old conversation.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
This is worth reading on 09/17/2013 21:57:15 MDT Print View

Instead of the same old left/ right debate.


Thanks Spelt!




By PETER LUDLOW



In recent months there has been a visible struggle in the media to come to grips with the leaking, whistle-blowing and hacktivism that has vexed the United States military and the private and government intelligence communities. This response has run the gamut. It has involved attempts to condemn, support, demonize, psychoanalyze and in some cases canonize figures like Aaron Swartz, Jeremy Hammond, Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden.

In broad terms, commentators in the mainstream and corporate media have tended to assume that all of these actors needed to be brought to justice, while independent players on the Internet and elsewhere have been much more supportive. Tellingly, a recent Time magazine cover story has pointed out a marked generational difference in how people view these matters: 70 percent of those age 18 to 34 sampled in a poll said they believed that Snowden “did a good thing” in leaking the news of the National Security Agency’s surveillance program.

So has the younger generation lost its moral compass?

No. In my view, just the opposite.



Clearly, there is a moral principle at work in the actions of the leakers, whistle-blowers and hacktivists and those who support them. I would also argue that that moral principle has been clearly articulated, and it may just save us from a dystopian future.

In “Eichmann in Jerusalem,” one of the most poignant and important works of 20th-century philosophy, Hannah Arendt made an observation about what she called “the banality of evil.” One interpretation of this holds that it was not an observation about what a regular guy Adolf Eichmann seemed to be, but rather a statement about what happens when people play their “proper” roles within a system, following prescribed conduct with respect to that system, while remaining blind to the moral consequences of what the system was doing — or at least compartmentalizing and ignoring those consequences.

A good illustration of this phenomenon appears in “Moral Mazes,” a book by the sociologist Robert Jackall that explored the ethics of decision making within several corporate bureaucracies. In it, Jackall made several observations that dovetailed with those of Arendt. The mid-level managers that he spoke with were not “evil” people in their everyday lives, but in the context of their jobs, they had a separate moral code altogether, what Jackall calls the “fundamental rules of corporate life”:

(1) You never go around your boss. (2) You tell your boss what he wants to hear, even when your boss claims that he wants dissenting views. (3) If your boss wants something dropped, you drop it. (4) You are sensitive to your boss’s wishes so that you anticipate what he wants; you don’t force him, in other words, to act as a boss. (5) Your job is not to report something that your boss does not want reported, but rather to cover it up. You do your job and you keep your mouth shut.

Jackall went through case after case in which managers violated this code and were drummed out of a business (for example, for reporting wrongdoing in the cleanup at the Three Mile Island nuclear power plant).

Aaron Swartz counted “Moral Mazes” among his “very favorite books.” Swartz was the Internet wunderkind who was hounded by a government prosecution threatening him with 35 years in jail for illicitly downloading academic journals that were behind a pay wall. Swartz, who committed suicide in January at age 26 (many believe because of his prosecution), said that “Moral Mazes” did an excellent job of “explaining how so many well-intentioned people can end up committing so much evil.”

Swartz argued that it was sometimes necessary to break the rules that required obedience to the system in order to avoid systemic evil. In Swartz’s case the system was not a corporation but a system for the dissemination of bottled up knowledge that should have been available to all. Swartz engaged in an act of civil disobedience to liberate that knowledge, arguing that “there is no justice in following unjust laws. It’s time to come into the light and, in the grand tradition of civil disobedience, declare our opposition to this private theft of public culture.”

Chelsea Manning, the United States Army private incarcerated for leaking classified documents from the Departments of Defense and State, felt a similar pull to resist the internal rules of the bureaucracy. In a statement at her trial she described a case where she felt this was necessary. In February 2010, she received a report of an event in which the Iraqi Federal Police had detained 15 people for printing “anti-Iraqi” literature. Upon investigating the matter, Manning discovered that none of the 15 had previous ties to anti-Iraqi actions or suspected terrorist organizations. Manning had the allegedly anti-Iraqi literature translated and found that, contrary to what the federal police had said, the published literature in question “detailed corruption within the cabinet of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki’s government and the financial impact of his corruption on the Iraqi people.”

When Manning reported this discrepancy to the officer in charge (OIC), she was told to “drop it,” she recounted.

Manning could not play along. As she put it, she knew if she “continued to assist the Baghdad Federal Police in identifying the political opponents of Prime Minister al-Maliki, those people would be arrested and in the custody of the Special Unit of the Baghdad Federal Police and very likely tortured and not seen again for a very long time — if ever.” When her superiors would not address the problem, she was compelled to pass this information on to WikiLeaks.

Snowden too felt that, confronting what was clearly wrong, he could not play his proper role within the bureaucracy of the intelligence community. As he put it,

[W]hen you talk to people about [abuses] in a place like this where this is the normal state of business people tend not to take them very seriously and move on from them. But over time that awareness of wrongdoing sort of builds up and you feel compelled to talk about [them]. And the more you talk about [them] the more you’re ignored. The more you’re told it’s not a problem until eventually you realize that these things need to be determined by the public and not by somebody who was simply hired by government.

The bureaucracy was telling him to shut up and move on (in accord with the five rules in “Moral Mazes”), but Snowden felt that doing so was morally wrong.

In a June Op-Ed in The Times, David Brooks made a case for why he thought Snowden was wrong to leak information about the Prism surveillance program. His reasoning cleanly framed the alternative to the moral code endorsed by Swartz, Manning and Snowden. “For society to function well,” he wrote, “there have to be basic levels of trust and cooperation, a respect for institutions and deference to common procedures. By deciding to unilaterally leak secret N.S.A. documents, Snowden has betrayed all of these things.”

The complaint is eerily parallel to one from a case discussed in “Moral Mazes,” where an accountant was dismissed because he insisted on reporting “irregular payments, doctored invoices, and shuffling numbers.” The complaint against the accountant by the other managers of his company was that “by insisting on his own moral purity … he eroded the fundamental trust and understanding that makes cooperative managerial work possible.”

But wasn’t there arrogance or hubris in Snowden’s and Manning’s decisions to leak the documents? After all, weren’t there established procedures determining what was right further up the organizational chart? Weren’t these ethical decisions better left to someone with a higher pay grade? The former United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, argued that Snowden “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us … that he can see clearer than other 299, 999, 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”

For the leaker and whistleblower the answer to Bolton is that there can be no expectation that the system will act morally of its own accord. Systems are optimized for their own survival and preventing the system from doing evil may well require breaking with organizational niceties, protocols or laws. It requires stepping outside of one’s assigned organizational role. The chief executive is not in a better position to recognize systemic evil than is a middle level manager or, for that matter, an IT contractor. Recognizing systemic evil does not require rank or intelligence, just honesty of vision.

Persons of conscience who step outside their assigned organizational roles are not new. There are many famous earlier examples, including Daniel Ellsberg (the Pentagon Papers), John Kiriakou (of the Central Intelligence Agency) and several former N.S.A. employees, who blew the whistle on what they saw as an unconstitutional and immoral surveillance program (William Binney, Russ Tice and Thomas Drake, for example). But it seems that we are witnessing a new generation of whistleblowers and leakers, which we might call generation W (for the generation that came of age in the era WikiLeaks, and now the war on whistleblowing).

The media’s desire to psychoanalyze members of generation W is natural enough. They want to know why these people are acting in a way that they, members of the corporate media, would not. But sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander; if there are psychological motivations for whistleblowing, leaking and hacktivism, there are likewise psychological motivations for closing ranks with the power structure within a system — in this case a system in which corporate media plays an important role. Similarly it is possible that the system itself is sick, even though the actors within the organization are behaving in accord with organizational etiquette and respecting the internal bonds of trust.

Just as Hannah Arendt saw that the combined action of loyal managers can give rise to unspeakable systemic evil, so too generation W has seen that complicity within the surveillance state can give rise to evil as well — not the horrific evil that Eichmann’s bureaucratic efficiency brought us, but still an Orwellian future that must be avoided at all costs.

Peter Ludlow is a professor of philosophy at Northwestern University and writes frequently on digital culture, hacktivism and the surveillance state.

Edited by Kat_P on 09/17/2013 21:59:27 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Lost conversation on 09/17/2013 23:30:39 MDT Print View

"And as usual a reasonable conversation is lost to the extremes. Both of them. Or more than two.
The usual folks seizing the moment to beat the same old drum.
Sorry, I am tired, physically, and of hearing the same old conversation."


Why be so concerned with and become intolerant of voices not your own, even if they are different than yourself and seemingly "extreme"?

Before one judges others and their perceptions and expressions hastily, why not try to dig a bit deeper and consider "what is the intent behind the words"? This practice that i apply to others is why i rarely feel irked by others expressions even if they are vastly different than my own, for if i can feel that they mean well and care about others and speak from that space, i can easily let other things slide.

For some might say, "Lost" is a bit extreme in itself.

Peter S (masc. über linear logical club)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: This is worth reading on 09/18/2013 03:12:25 MDT Print View

Thanks spelt! and Kat

for me, this is the core:

"But wasn’t there arrogance or hubris in Snowden’s and Manning’s decisions to leak the documents? After all, weren’t there established procedures determining what was right further up the organizational chart? Weren’t these ethical decisions better left to someone with a higher pay grade? The former United States ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, argued that Snowden “thinks he’s smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us … that he can see clearer than other 299, 999, 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants. I say that is the worst form of treason.”

For the leaker and whistleblower the answer to Bolton is that there can be no expectation that the system will act morally of its own accord. Systems are optimized for their own survival and preventing the system from doing evil may well require breaking with organizational niceties, protocols or laws. It requires stepping outside of one’s assigned organizational role. The chief executive is not in a better position to recognize systemic evil than is a middle level manager or, for that matter, an IT contractor. Recognizing systemic evil does not require rank or intelligence, just honesty of vision."

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Lost conversation on 09/18/2013 05:59:14 MDT Print View

"
Why be so concerned with and become intolerant of voices not your own, even if they are different than yourself and seemingly "extreme"? "


Justin, I hardly deserve that. I have been on the forum for a number of years and I welcome dissenting opinion. I don't even mind what some think of as semi taboo topics.
What I am tired of is that every discussion gets reduced to the same left / right argument, by the same people, with nothing new. Not even addressing the thread other than to replay the same record we have heard for years.
I am not calling for a moderator, I am not calling for anyone to stop. I am frustrated and I am expressing it.

Maybe if you knew me a little better you would know that of all the things I am, intolerant isn't really something I am much of.
Or stick around a little longer and notice how good threads with well meaning people end up being abandoned by those whose thoughts we could benefit the most from...., once either extreme sides take over, or demeaning and offensive language starts to pervade the thread.

Edited by Kat_P on 09/18/2013 06:13:07 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Lost conversation on 09/18/2013 07:38:23 MDT Print View

I agree Kat, you didn't deserve that. I find you to be one of the more tolerant of the chaff contributors...

But a quick note about my posts...I was simply commenting as an aside that there is so much *government* blaming when I'm not so sure that should be the target of our ire. Theoretically the government is the one place where we have even a modicum of control...

I'm not a big chaff participant because it does seem like an exercise in futility most of the time.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: This is worth reading on 09/18/2013 07:47:20 MDT Print View

"After all, weren’t there established procedures determining what was right further up the organizational chart?..."

No

Ellsberg in his NPR interview said it was the same thing with Vietnam. No one would take his information and do anything with it.

The people that Snowden could have turned his information over to don't want the information made public. It would expose them as liars.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Lost conversation on 09/18/2013 08:11:38 MDT Print View

"I agree Kat, you didn't deserve that...I'm not a big chaff participant because it does seem like an exercise in futility most of the time"

If you say anything on the internet, you have to expect to be occasionally flamed.

It seems like if someone posts something about barricading yourself with guns to protect yourself from the government, someone else might take it to heart. Maybe if other ideas are expressed, it will save one person from going down the same path? Probably futile but what the ...

As far as endlessly talking about "the best government money can buy", it seems like that's the root of all problems - "one ring to rule them all"

It seems like movements like the Tea Party or Occupy might lead to a resolution to the problem of our government being bought off. Occupy has sort of fizzled out but maybe it's still smoldering and will come back to life. The Tea Party politicians have mostly been bought off by the people that have bought the government and the members have been diverted talking about how the government is going to take their guns away and other things...

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Lost conversation on 09/18/2013 08:47:16 MDT Print View

"I agree Kat, you didn't deserve that. I find you to be one of the more tolerant of the chaff contributors..."

Hold it right there. Oh she seems pleasant and everything on the forums but there's a sinister side to Kat.

I'm going to try and quote a PM I received from her after I told her I could get a cheaper hat from China:

"Listen Holmes.... the lower 48 is my turf. You bring that punk (expletive) into my territory? Not a problem homeboy. Looks like Rodrigo and I are going to need to make a special trip to Washington with a shovel. Watch your back Holmes."

I was on a lot of cough syrup and just finished watching Blood In Blood Out that day so my memory is a little fuzzy but that's how I remember it.

Regarding the government vs private sector.

Yes the relationship between big business and the government is a mess. Always has been and always will be.

I don't blame the government or big business. I blame the hordes of spineless people for allowing this to happen, especially the ones who are crying that it's not their fault and that they are a product of manipulation.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Lost conversation on 09/18/2013 09:11:45 MDT Print View

Wow, you folks make it sound like i was demonizing Kat. I quoted her and specifically responded to her quote--both the data content and the seeming vibe, that's all. My perception is that she is a generally a really nice and mature person (and i happen to personally like and admire her from what i've observed here at BPL) and was aware that she perhaps was just having a "tired" or weak moment as far as her level of tolerance goes. I rarely comment on people in a personal way on forums (or in life), and when i do, it's only when those people strike me as the kind who know better. People who don't, i don't waste my breath on in a personal sense.


Anyways, in keeping more in line with the gist of the thread. One might argue that the American government is doing massive spying on us less because of concern with foreign "terrorists" but because of worry about movements like Occupy, Oath Keepers, Libertarian, Tea party, etc, etc.

Some might call that "extreme", but i call it reading between the lines and not being naive. If you disagree with the logic i use and the ideas i share, please quote them and refute them with better logic, etc.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Lost conversation on 09/18/2013 09:20:58 MDT Print View

"It seems like if someone posts something about barricading yourself with guns to protect yourself from the government, someone else might take it to heart."


For the record Jerry, let it be known that i didn't once say anything like this whatsoever.

If stuff does happen to get critical here, and martial law, outright agression, or the like is instituted, well my plan is just to have an extended hike in the woods. I'm not stockpiling weapons, or barricading myself in my house, blah blah blah.

I'm a person of peace, but if it comes down to it, to help others i would fight back, just not for myself alone as i have no fear of death or imprisonment.

If people understood the degree and depth of how corrupt and difficult things have become here, they would be as concerned as i am about the way things are going. When people like me speak up and do so frankly and without social fear, others try to silence these people with various negative labels of extremist and the like.

Or, they make fun of them in an indirect way. Either way, they are not comfortable with the truths that they can't accept.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Extremes on 09/18/2013 09:35:06 MDT Print View

Justin,
With my original post I hoped for more people to seriously look into the Snowden leaks and the over reaching of the NSA.
It did not take long for posters to not even reply to this at all, and rather just reply to conspiracy theories and fear of government, and the corporations etc.
I wanted to keep the facts separate from what we do not know to be facts yet.
I am not putting down your thoughts nor do I think or ought not post them. I am separating them from the intent of my original post.
You are doing your part in what you think people should wake up to.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Extremes on 09/18/2013 11:16:55 MDT Print View

The biggest problem with spying, is when they use it to supress ploitical speech - like Occupy, Tea Party, Libertarian, and even Oath Keepers.

Just reading your Oath Keepers list, it seems like the solution offered is for everyone to get guns to protect themselves. And other people reading it will have that reaction.

The weapon we have is to speak up, call your congressmen, show up at demonstrations, etc.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
OP on 09/18/2013 11:29:57 MDT Print View

"I wanted to keep the facts separate from what we do not know to be facts yet."

I'm not the first to remark on this but the Snowden case revealed that the U.S. government is doing what many of us already suspected they've been doing all along. I'm not saying I approve, just that I'm not surprised.

When I'm on BPL, Facebook, or whatever, I realize that I'm leaving an internet breadcrumb trail for not only the government but future employers. I am at peace with the fact that the recent chafing thread has made me permanently ineligible to run for congress.

I do object to the government reaching into our email inboxes for information absent a warrant. I am of the opinion that email should be treated the same as regular mail and that there should be some reasonable expectation of privacy. I don't think that anyone, including Google, should be able to scan emails (for criminal or targeting advertising) absent a warrant.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Extremes on 09/18/2013 12:02:31 MDT Print View

"Just reading your Oath Keepers list, it seems like the solution offered is for everyone to get guns to protect themselves. And other people reading it will have that reaction."

Jerry I didn't share that oath keepers list, Matthew Perry did. I'm not part of any group or organization, nor do I label myself this or that politically.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Extremes on 09/18/2013 12:39:45 MDT Print View

I understand Kat and I apologize for the thread drift from the original topic. I also understand the intent to keep it grounded and purely factual. I was speaking theoretically some, but I also mentioned plenty of facts and experiences which are not "conspiracy theory". If we don't dig deeper into the core issues, like the power and untouchable nature of institutions like the Federal Reserve which is a fact that its not "federal" but private banking related, then how will we ever truly change things? Talking about Snowden and the NSA is good to do however these are just smaller symptoms of a much larger big picture issue that needs to be more addressed than the smaller symptoms. Having a very broad mind that is good at both big picture stuff and detail I have a hard time sticking to just one narrower subject and not connecting the dots to the bigger picture. I will try to keep it more specialized and smaller picture.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/18/2013 12:47:06 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Extremes on 09/18/2013 13:14:31 MDT Print View

Federal Reserve makes cheap loans to big banks and other ways for them to make big money. That's not fair.

On the other hand, they manipulate interest rates to stimulate the economy to lessen recessions. Like this recent recession could have been another great depression without the fed.

They should just evolve the fed so they don't give big banks such a good deal.

I think NSA/Snowden/privacy and Federal Reserve are smaller problems.

The big problem is our "best government money can buy"

ooops - thread drift - rehashing ths same subject - sorry Katrina : )

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
@Jerry...not a hurricane on 09/18/2013 17:31:45 MDT Print View

I can be a bit much....but don't call me a hurricane!

Katharina, not Katrina

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: @Jerry...not a hurricane on 09/18/2013 18:49:16 MDT Print View

Katharina it is : )

Maybe I thought you were behaving like a hurricane? (no, just kidding)

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 09/22/2013 03:12:18 MDT Print View

a

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
A bump for Snowden leaks on 10/28/2013 23:05:07 MDT Print View

More coming out all the time. Bigger news in Europe right now, or maybe they are just paying more attention.
They are doing a great job on releasing this bit by bit after careful fact checking.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: A bump for Snowden leaks on 10/28/2013 23:09:52 MDT Print View

"Yes we scan"

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: A bump for Snowden leaks on 10/29/2013 08:24:21 MDT Print View

seems like they've been good at dribbling the leaks out over time, keeping this in the news for an extended period

What's interesting, is all the illegal spying defenders say how this is the worst breach in national security ever, but they don't take the blame for illegal or at least improper spying on people

You ask for an example, and they just say it's classified so they can't talk about it

On 60 Minutes they said the CIA budget was leaked. Now maybe I'll agree that that shouldn't have been leaked because then the people we're spying on will better be able to figure out how to defend themselves from spying. But maybe we should know more what the budget is so we, the citizens, can make a judgement about whether this is a good use of our taxes.

Peter S (masc. über linear logical club)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Europe on 10/29/2013 09:04:45 MDT Print View

The NSA scandal is huge in Europe as we speak. In the news all the time. American government is absolutely not the only government being criticized, thats for sure.

Edited by prse on 10/29/2013 09:05:41 MDT.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
Latest developments on 10/29/2013 10:28:25 MDT Print View

How things have changed since June 6 when Guardian published first NSA story.

1. Dianne Feinstein has been biggest supporter of NSA in congress, now she wants a top-to-bottom review. I take anything she says with huge grain of salt but still an indicator of changing sentiment. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/28/dianne-feinstein-nsa-spying_n_4171473.html
2. NYT editorial calls Obama response/explanation "pathetic." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/opinion/the-white-house-on-spying.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=1&
3. $575 annual cost to each US taxpayer for NSA spying. http://www.cato.org/blog/nsas-rent-too-damn-high
4. Hearing today at 1p.m. EST with introduction of USA Freedom Act by James Sensenbrenner that will outlaw bulk phone collection http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/legislation/usa-freedom-act-cosponsors.htm

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 15:33:52 MDT Print View

Now Merkle knows how the rest of us feel. At least she is getting an apology.
Nothing for the 330 million US citizens. We get nichts.

And to think Europe game him a peace prize.

Edited by asdzxc57 on 10/29/2013 15:40:04 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 15:41:33 MDT Print View

"Now Merkle knows how the rest of feel. At least she is getting an apology.
Nothing for the 330 million US citizens. We get nichts.

And to think Europe game him a peace prize."


We don't get one because we aren't even asking for one. There is very little outrage...just wait a couple of minutes and someone will jump in to defend him.
A few decades from now, hopefully sooner, when it becomes glaringly obvious how this was a "very bad" thing, we'll hear people say " no one knew.....".
Apparently the majority is just fine with the NSA and figures it is the way it is and to me they are guilty as well.

Peter S (masc. über linear logical club)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Funny on 10/29/2013 16:34:59 MDT Print View

The funny thing about Merkel is, that she didn't make a big fuss out of it when it was exposed that the German population was being spied on. But then when she found out that she was also being spied on.. Hypocrisy... Jeez...

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:35:09 MDT Print View

What difference does an apology make?

Are we so simplistic that we need to believe they at least feel bad about what they're doing?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:37:31 MDT Print View

No, an apology is not enough. It would mean they are at least being honest now and then they could stop it. In my dreams. I don't think anyone here was that simplistic Craig.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:50:59 MDT Print View

It means they're only being "honest" about what they already know we know. If that's what you can even call honesty. There's a big difference. And even then we're only getting a fraction of it.

I've never understood why we would expect anything different.

Power, resources, violence, global geopolitics, militaries, money....To make believe that the people in charge of all of this can or will play by the rules is flat out delusional.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:53:59 MDT Print View

If they were "honest" they'de figure out a way to let Snowden back

Slap on wrist, maybe a small amount of time in a "country club prison" or home detention

Demand that he turn over every thing he has

Have him testify to congress, both publically and in private for classified stuff

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:55:36 MDT Print View

--> xNoMaNx

Why is spying on a foreign leader worth an apology? It doesn't make sense. If it was wrong to spy on foreigners than what about citizens? The statements from Big Brother are not making any sense.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 17:57:51 MDT Print View

"I've never understood why we would expect anything different. "

I guess that is where we part. While I don't think that I am delusional ( to some degree I am sure...) I am not ok with the extent of this collection of data of all citizens. The problem really is how everyone is just accepting this.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:00:46 MDT Print View

"If they were "honest" they'de figure out a way to let Snowden back

Slap on wrist, maybe a small amount of time in a "country club prison" or home detention

Demand that he turn over every thing he has

Have him testify to congress, both publically and in private for classified stuff"



Demand that he turn over everything he has? In that case I am glad he is in Russia and that what he knows he already turned over to those ( Greenwald ) that are releasing this for the world to see.
Al least the rest of the world isn't seeing this the way we are here, thankfully!

If had always taken abuse of power ( and injustice) lying down the way we are doing now....we would be in a much worse place now.


Edited to add: @Craig, did you listen to the interview that is linked in the OP? If not, I strongly encourage you to.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/29/2013 18:10:40 MDT.

Jeremy and Angela
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:10:28 MDT Print View

Is it Greenwald that's releasing the data? From the nature of the leaks, I'd have thought it was Putin getting a good return on his investment.

I see two issues here: Snowden's access reflects poorly on NSA's competence, and clearly domestic spying has gone way beyond what is legal or appropriate. I don't mind that Merkel's phone was tapped; that's what the NSA is supposed to do.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:14:30 MDT Print View

Ok, so now that all of us know they're spying on everyone, so what?
We're going to vote the military/industrial/surveillance/profit machine out of office?

Right.

The people doing this to us know that nobody is giving up the technology that makes all of this possible.

How could a government resist when all of the architecture is right in place to make it easier than it has ever been? To think they used to actually have to get their hands dirty breaking into people's offices and following them to lunch.

Concerning everyone just "accepting this", what exactly are people supposed to do?
Get outraged? At who? Raise a stink until Obama apologizes and promises it won't happen again? Are we to trust some politician's assurances that everyone is behaving now? I doubt many elected officials even know about a fraction of what the NSA/CIA/Pentagon do.

Edited by xnomanx on 10/29/2013 18:25:49 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 18:44:02 MDT Print View

Yes, Kat, I did listen to the interview.

I'm somewhat surprised that even Gellman admits to being surprised by the extent of the PRISM program. Perhaps my standards/expectations are pretty low. It seems obvious to me that when an entire society does everything digitally that a government would be monitoring everything. It's too easy. So what if it's against the Law, the Constitution, or anything else we can invoke. None of those things have ever stopped governments from doing far worse than spying.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:02:03 MDT Print View

Let's at least be thankful that there are whistleblowers out there and others that are letting people know. The best I think we can do is keep asking questions, keeping our eyes on it and yes, be outraged and letting it be known.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:09:18 MDT Print View

and be thankful that Snowden and company are so clever dribbling the info out over long time to keep it in view

Jeremy and Angela
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:15:56 MDT Print View

Ok, I finally read the transcript. Interesting. (Now I'm going to geek out for a bit.)

So he's separated the key and the data. Eliminating either would make the "problem" go away, which argues for multiple copies of the data. Multiple copies of the key makes the data too vulnerable, but a single copy makes him too vulnerable. My guess is that many people have copies of the data, and he used a standard secret-sharing technique to split the key among a number of trusted people, with a smaller group needed to reconstitute the key. (I.e. too many to disappear, yet not so vulnerable that a single car accident loses the key.)

I've always assumed the tapping was done via a direct tap on the backbones, rather than with too much corporate involvement. Then again, I do recall hearing many years ago about the telco-located boxes for phone taps being exploitable by organized crime, and I guess the telco counts as a private company.

(Time to hatch a scheme to leverage HIPAA to encourage country-wide encrypted email adoption.)

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Where is our apology? on 10/29/2013 19:59:29 MDT Print View

Hi Kat,

When i let myself dwell on all this, i do sometimes get angry, but in a sense i'm with Craig on this one.

What are we supposed to do? We can't vote our way out of this (well many thought we did this with Obama) and we can't protest our way out of this.

The only other option is out right revolution, but would that really be feasible? In a time when technology can allow certain people and groups to pretty much tap into any communication and spy so completely on us, forming a revolution without being found out ahead of time would be extremely hard to do, especially to recruit the numbers needed for a real revolution. And those numbers simply aren't there to begin with anyways.

But yes, i am grateful for people like Snowden. Wish there were more. If there were a lot more people like him, then something lasting might be able to get done. Ultimately though, it's a collective consciousness issue. Until the majority of people change their ideals and ways of living to the more positive and loving and less materialistic--corrupt systems, groups, and leaders will keep arising.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
What to do on 10/29/2013 20:07:26 MDT Print View

"What are we supposed to do? We can't vote our way out of this (well many thought we did this with Obama) and we can't protest our way out of this. "


You don't have to do anything. Craig does not either; he has a family with young kids and a life to live. What I suggest you do not do is discourage others from keeping this in the spotlight. That is all.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Link on 10/29/2013 20:22:48 MDT Print View

For you Justin. My daughter just showed me this video .
There is hope for what you are envisioning. Very touching.
I am not meaning this as a joke, btw, it just gives me hope for the future.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/342604/10/Viral-video-Emotional-baby-Too-cute

Edited by Kat_P on 10/29/2013 20:30:29 MDT.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
What we can do on 10/30/2013 06:32:04 MDT Print View

We can do lots of things. We vote with our dollars every day. We get to elect a new representative every two years. I don't believe that simply because the technology exists that it is natural to assume the govt will vacuum it all up. It's highly cost-inefficient. I take issue that this type of spying has been done at all times by all governments. It's not basic human nature to spy on each other. It's basic human nature to respect each other's privacy. That was the whole purpose of the constitution - to clearly set out the boundaries of what government could and could not do. The difference between giving one's data to a private company vs. giving it (unwillingly) to the government is that private companies do not have police forces, court systems and prisons to come after you with if they don't like your data.

Edited by Winterland76 on 10/30/2013 08:06:39 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 07:20:31 MDT Print View

Very well said James.

Snowden:
"Even if you are not doing anything wrong, you are being watched and recorded. The storage capability of these systems increases every year consistently by orders of magnitude. They can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you have ever made, every friend you have even discussed something with, and attack you on that basis....to derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer."

You may not be concerned with the current administration having this information and doing anything harmful with it, but in the future you could become concerned.

As Gellman described :" we are living increasingly behind one-way mirrors in which we are more and more transparent to our government and to large corporate interests and they are more and more opaque to us because the surveillance is accompanied by extraordinary levels of secrecy.”

So, at least, we ought to encourage those that are out there asking questions.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Link on 10/30/2013 09:00:03 MDT Print View

Thank you for sharing that Kat, definitely was very touching to watch. There are some very interesting and very mature consciousnesses coming in, more and more and for the real revolution to end all revolutions (that of the heart). Its these who will be the future organizers and facilitators (not so much "leaders" as we think or call it now, as it will be a more cooperative leadership with them), and i'm not as pessimistic as i may seem on the surface. I just don't think our main problems can be solved politically as much as on a consciousness level--and there is a lot of work going into that behind the scenes.



James wrote, "We get to elect a new representative every two years."

I suppose to some extent, yet really good choices seem to be really slim pickings in that area too (at least in my state that i know more concretely about). Jerry is right about one thing, until we take big money out of the picture of politics, no major change is going to happen, and our choices will be between seemingly lesser evils as often is, and not people of real integrity, real ethics, real strength of spirit who will stand up to those powers of monies. One of the few in recent history seems to have been Dennis Kucinich.

But isn't that sort of a catch 22 at this point? We may request our representatives to make changes in policy to take big money out of politics, but will they really vote on it? Isn't that one of the reason why many of them became politicians to begin with--for the various "perks"?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 09:45:55 MDT Print View

So what should we not spend our dollars on and who should we vote out of office to end the spying on US citizens?

Of the 16 intelligence agencies in this country that we know about, how many of the people working for them do we get to elect?

Do we start mass boycotts of AT&T, Google, Verizon, etc.?

And we find new providers of these services and take them for their word that their not storing and handing over all of our information? Everyone assumed their privacy was already protected with these people. How are we to trust anyone's claims in light of what's been coming out?

____________________

"I take issue that this type of spying has been done at all times by all governments. It's not basic human nature to spy on each other."

If it's not human nature then why are humans so good at doing it? Another side of human nature: lust for power, control, and wealth. Of all the depraved human strategies to attain these three things, spying is pretty benign.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 10:08:58 MDT Print View

Becoming informed and asking questions is a start. Acting like this is no news and just the way it is, is exactly what they are counting on. I understand feeling powerless here, believe me, yet I believe that there is a tipping point. News and media will report on what people want to read.


And here is a good read:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/nov/21/snowden-leaks-and-public/?page=1

Edited by Kat_P on 10/30/2013 10:21:25 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 11:30:26 MDT Print View

getting mad, sticking head out window and yelling "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" is a start

(except in the movie I forget what he was mad about, getting fired or something?)

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
"Free" services like FB on 10/30/2013 13:20:46 MDT Print View

Craig raises many good valid points. I just wanted to counter the "everybody does it, always have, always will" meme. Maybe it's true, maybe not. It's probably human nature for the power-hungry-types who gravitate to things like politics. This is still a fluid situation. Lavabit and SilentCircle founders are getting together to create secure email service.
With most of these "free" services like FB, Yahoo Mail, GMail, what is being sold is you. The NSA can only collect a lot of this information because we hand it over to Silicon Valley in exchange for no promises of privacy. I expect competitors to emerge.
In the meanitime latest bombshell is NSA has been able to surreptitiously break into the server clouds of Google and Yahoo abroad and siphon off data about their users.
Your move, Google and Yahoo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-infiltrates-links-to-yahoo-google-data-centers-worldwide-snowden-documents-say/2013/10/30/e51d661e-4166-11e3-8b74-d89d714ca4dd_story.html?hpid=z1

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
What we can do on 10/30/2013 13:23:05 MDT Print View

I'm not arguing against being informed, but many people confuse "being informed" with rolling up their sleeves and engaging in actual activism.

What is the difference between a person who is informed but does nothing and person who is not informed?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 14:07:07 MDT Print View

"What is the difference between a person who is informed but does nothing and person who is not informed?"

For one, should the occasion arise, the informed person could vote, boycott (or support) and demonstrate.
The uninformed can just go on in bliss.

I don't understand the energy put into discouraging people from talking about this and finding out more. I mean, no one is forcing or asking anyone to do something. But discouraging others from spreading this information is puzzling to me.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 10/30/2013 15:39:49 MDT Print View

"Yes we scan"

I like that. Not the scanning, just the play on words.

Anyway , we (Aussies) are your friends ,weather we like it or not.

This is Pine Gap, right in the middle of our country.
(close to Alice Springs, no you can't visit...)


Pine Gap 1
Pine Gap 2
Guess what they have been doing there since 1970 ?

BTW, 800 people work there, not exactly a small operation.

Edited by Franco on 10/30/2013 15:42:34 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 16:28:28 MDT Print View

Am I discouraging anyone from talking about this?

I share news articles on the topic with my students regularly. Generally, they shrug.

I'm questioning:
A) Now that we know, what are people going to do about it?
B) How much can we realistically expect to change this situation?
C) Are we even able to change this situation?

Perhaps I'm taking a pretty pessimistic tone about the entire issue. That's because I'm very pessimistic about it. We're expecting an institution that time and time again demonstrates itself to be corrupt and morally bankrupt to police itself. If the rule of law, democracy, and the will of the people meant anything to any of these agencies we wouldn't be talking about this.

Yes, an informed person can certainly vote, boycott, and demonstrate. But is anyone here voting, boycotting, or demonstrating? Who (or what) are we voting against? Who do we boycott? Where do we demonstrate and will those in charge of all of this care?

I'm not being sarcastic. These are genuine questions.

As James said above, I certainly hope that, at a minimum, search engines and email providers that don't sell their clients out become more available because of all of this. But I'm still skeptical this will happen as I keep reading story after story about how the NSA and other agencies required "secure" providers to leave them a backdoor.

Edited by xnomanx on 10/30/2013 16:37:33 MDT.

Jeremy and Angela
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Fresh Air with Terry Gross on 10/30/2013 16:39:00 MDT Print View

Re: Pine Gap
Ah, one of the old Echelon stations!

For the Dune fans out there:
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptable. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted.
Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse Dune, Missionaria Protectiva


It's good to see Phil Zimmerman and Jon Callas are involved with the Dark Mail Alliance (the collaboration that Lavabit and Silent Circle are working on). If they are able to create an effective and userfriendly tool that works well with gmail, it would be very easy to bring about the NSA's nightmare of making the Internet "go dark".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/30/lavabit-and-silent-circle-join-forces-to-make-all-email-surveillance-proof/

Unfortunately at present there isn't a practical solution for everyday crypto; most people don't have keypairs, wouldn't know how to use them if they did, and most current tools are not well-integrated.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: What we can do on 10/30/2013 18:00:36 MDT Print View

Then why vote, demonstrate, boycott support or discuss anything at all. ....

We deserve what we get.



Edited. To add. Get rid of Feinstein, for one.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/01/2013 07:19:02 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: What we can do on 10/31/2013 19:32:05 MDT Print View

I have been reading several informative articles, some of them Greenwald himself recommended in the last couple of days. Instead of adding posts at the bottom of this thread, I am going to add them to the original post, trying to keep them in one place and avoiding Chaff clutter every time I find some link worthwhile posting.
Occasionally I might bump the thread.

Dave Stoller
(BreakingAway)
Dichotomy... on 11/01/2013 09:14:32 MDT Print View

I hate to drag the other thread into this one but there's an interesting dichotomy at play here.

A lot of people are understandably upset that the government is surreptitiously gathering so much detailed information about us. About everyone really.

Yet not too many people seemed bothered that the same government requires disclosure of just about everything about yourself in order to purchase a product that they require you to buy.

It seems almost as egregious to me.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
The Guardian article on 11/02/2013 16:12:50 MDT Print View

Posted here and in the OP.

"NSA files : decoded. What the revelations mean to you"

A worthy interactive article from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/nov/01/snowden-nsa-files-surveillance-revelations-decoded#section/1

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Dichotomy... on 11/03/2013 12:41:41 MST Print View

You disclose a lot of information when you fill out your 1040.
I have to disclose what charity I gave money if I want to deduct it.
Did you have to fill out a FAFSA? Every apply for mortgage?
Is obtaining insurance any more than that?

I don't remember being asked to include all the people I email and when, all the people I call and when, all the websites I have looked at, everyone who I have sent and received a letter, etc. And this is only what has been disclosed. I am sure every financial transaction has been recorded, indexed and categorized for future use.

Since you don't like these disclosures, where do you stand on the invasive procedures passed by some states on women prior to obtaining constitutionally guaranteed medical procedures?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Dichotomy... on 11/03/2013 18:00:53 MST Print View

Snowden committed treason....he will be tried and will be convicted of being an enemy of the state....watch and learn. There are some secrets that do not need to see the light of day. The NSA are seriously a joke as an org. to have such a low level employee do what he did. As for other countries spying? They do it too....Not everything is black and white....love all the edited posts here....too F'ing funny

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Another article on 11/03/2013 18:24:31 MST Print View

Seventy of the world's leading human rights organizations are writing on on behalf of Edward Snowden and the erosion of rights and freedoms in the UK.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/03/uk-reaction-nsa-leaks-human-rights

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Another article on 11/03/2013 18:54:37 MST Print View

who cares^^^ he compromised our national security and could possibly jeopardize lives....HE will pay the price for it at sometime. Of course other groups are looking at him as a hero....drink some more Kool Aid....He is an enemy combatant of our country plain and sinple....bad on the NSA for not vesting him....and no, I an NOT a supporter of this agency. All countries do this to a degree....to ignore THAT fact is pure and simple naive kids. There are many things that we are not privy to info wise. We..... as a country are not in the pipeline with a lot of info ......so to speak. Snowden is not a hero by any means...and there are some things that we should not know/or will not know... Funny to see some real DUMB public foreign affairs polies seeing the light of day....lol

funny conversation with some of you lacking understanding of international politics.

Edited by kennyhel77 on 11/03/2013 18:58:54 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Another article on 11/03/2013 21:17:06 MST Print View

"who cares^^^ he compromised our national security and could possibly jeopardize lives....HE will pay the price for it at sometime. Of course other groups are looking at him as a hero....drink some more Kool Aid....He is an enemy combatant of our country plain and sinple....bad on the NSA for not vesting him....and no, I an NOT a supporter of this agency. All countries do this to a degree....to ignore THAT fact is pure and simple naive kids. There are many things that we are not privy to info wise. We..... as a country are not in the pipeline with a lot of info ......so to speak. Snowden is not a hero by any means...and there are some things that we should not know/or will not know... Funny to see some real DUMB public foreign affairs polies seeing the light of day....lol

funny conversation with some of you lacking understanding of international politics.

Edited by kennyhel77 on 11/03/2013 18:58:54 MST."



I rest my case.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/03/2013 22:56:12 MST Print View

Personally, i think Snowden is a hero of sorts. Anytime you sacrifice yourself, your life, your comfort, your status or image etc, for the truth and for the betterment of others, it's pretty heroic in at least my eyes. Actually the very essence and embodiment of same.

I also think that we need to completely overthrow this current government and larger system and by system, i also mean especially the international banksters. If i thought it had a snow balls chance in h*ll, i would try to start such a revolution myself. Maybe a group of super prodigy hackers, hooked up with good people on the inside could do something, with a lot of support from the masses?

Things are not the way there were even just 30, or 40 years ago, and they were already assassinating people who were, and had the potential of making real positive change in this world.

Now, with the way technology is, how the legal system has gone with certain protective rights being taken away, materially speaking any kind of overt and sudden change or revolution materially would be very, very difficult start up and especially to maintain.

We need an intervention, a strong outside catalyst and introduced variable and i happen to think that is exactly what we will get, and it won't be easy for anyone, but it will weaken those corrupt and manipulating forces enough so that people of good will, idealism, and constructivity can rebuild a better civilization without the heavy weight of those often hard to see puppet strings and shackles (growing more and more visible each and every day though).

But the real change is within each and one of us, within YOU. That's where it starts. Open up to and then radiate out that positivity, and creative forces. It can and does have it's affect though it's more subtle than political activism. Not saying to not do the latter, but without the former, not much real and lasting change will happen.

Again, ultimately it is about and will be about a revolution of the heart. That's where the lasting change for the better will take place and radiate out into all aspects of our human lives, including larger, organized societal structures and constructs like government.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/03/2013 23:01:18 MST.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Circling the Wagons - Very Disturbing on 11/04/2013 04:55:41 MST Print View

Most everyone knows about the "Blue Code of Silence" - an unwritten rule among police officers not to report on a colleague's errors, misconducts, or crimes?

Or the church hierarchy that tries to cover up the sexual misconduct of its clerics?

In both cases, an almost instinctive reflex to protect the organization backfires eventually, often to the greater detriment of the organizations involved. Equally poignant - subsequent reforms and interventions resulting from public exposure ultimately serve to strengthen those organizations - not undermine them - as their leadership might have us believe!!

Outsiders are often bewildered why something so obvious is so hard to grasp by those inside? Well, in the case of Snowden - to the extent the expose involves our country - we Americans are ALL insiders! And we see it here - insiders who are quick to circle the wagons and to demonize the likes of Snowden - rather than aiming their condemnation where it belongs - the overreaching surveillance and hacking being done - unlawfully in certain cases - by certain bureaucrats under a cloud of opacity that runs contrary to what our own government preaches incessantly to the rest of the world.

Yes, bureaucrats will see themselves under attack and will instinctively defend themselves by telling us openness and intervention will undermine all their good works. But I firmly believe that proper procedures, safeguards, and oversight will ultimately benefit both ourselves and our institutions.

I applaud Snowden for his courage in showing a higher loyalty to his country by 'betraying' his own organization when that organization has engaged in unlawful activities that undermine our national integrity!

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 06:27:49 MST Print View

No Kat....you actually don't understand the politcs at hand....but then again, you have an oponion and YOUR opinion is always correct

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 07:40:49 MST Print View

Good read from someone working for the Department of Defense

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/let-me-stress-how-shocking-these-nsa-revelations-are-a-view-from-inside-the-defense-world/281052/



Edited because I first wrote that it was an article written by someone working for the DOD, but it is a letter to the editor published by The Atlantic, and as Doug pointed out, a couple others.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/04/2013 10:03:17 MST.

William Chilton
(WilliamC3) - MLife

Locale: Antakya
Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 09:45:32 MST Print View

"there are some things that we should not know/or will not know..." You shouldn't know that your government agencies are breaking your laws and lying to your representatives in government? And so democracy dies...

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/04/2013 09:56:15 MST Print View

"Good read from someone working for the Department of Defense"

And a couple of other people. It is a good read, thanks.

Dave Stoller
(BreakingAway)
"Fresh Air with Terry Gross" on 11/04/2013 20:02:07 MST Print View

Tim - I agree, they're not the same thing, but maybe almost.

I guess what I'm really saying is that I would expect more pushback on being required to disclose a great deal of personal, financial and medical history in order to obtain health care through the government. Seems ripe for abuse, in fact they disclose that applicants should have no expectation of privacy. Especially given that the "Data Hub" connects something like six different departments.

Can you imagine a scenario whereby a future presidential candidate's embarrassing medical treatments are released and used against him/her?

I'm not subject to these disclosures (yet) and I still think it's a bad idea.

Are you intimating that since I pay taxes and have a mortgage that I ought to also be fine with disclosing most everything directly to a "Data Hub"?

"Since you don't like these disclosures, where do you stand on the invasive procedures passed by some states on women prior to obtaining constitutionally guaranteed medical procedures?"

What are you referring to here and how is relative?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another article on 11/05/2013 08:27:52 MST Print View

Another one.
"Edward Snowden is no Trailtor" by Richard Cohen.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-edward-snowden-is-no-traitor/2013/10/21/f9d2ae5a-3a74-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html


If you take the time to read some of these articles it becomes clear how careful Greenwald and others are being to make sure that information that could really compromise our security is not revealed. What has been revealed so far, particularly on domestic data gathering, is something that in my opinion we should know . Revelations about US spying on European and other world leaders.....is mostly important to me because it will keep this in the news, which we need because here we would just go along with it and be done.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/05/2013 10:27:27 MST.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Another article on 11/05/2013 15:23:43 MST Print View

@Kat_P -- thanks for posting theguardian article.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Another article on 11/05/2013 16:53:30 MST Print View

@Tim Zen , which one...the interactive one? If so, wasn't that a bit of a reality check?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Al Gore comments about NSA revelations and Snowden on 11/06/2013 08:53:02 MST Print View

.....“He has revealed evidence of what appears to be crimes against the Constitution of the United States".

http://o.canada.com/news/al-gore-predicts-lawmakers-will-rein-in-surveillance-after-snowden-leaks/




Edited to add:

I am not cruising the internet searching for these articles. A friend pointed out that by getting a Twitter account one can follow Gellman and Greenwald as well as others, and see all the links that are posted by them and other journalists. So I got myself a Twitter account, not even sure what it was and having disliked even the word for quite a while. I guess some people follow movie stars that way....
I am not "tweeting" anything; I just look at a number of journalists and what articles they either write or recommend to one another; I really like having access to articles without searching the internet. I also looked at who these guys, and gals, are following and interacting with and I get to read articles from around the world that would be difficult to locate without this tool.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/06/2013 10:12:52 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
A great read on 11/06/2013 22:06:25 MST Print View

Forgive the long post. The link is below, but this was worthy making it easier for people to read right here.
http://privacysos.org/node/1229

"Secrecy: the oxygen of the deep state, the enemy of democracy"


If knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness. Who holds the most power in the United States? Is it the President, Congress, and the Supreme Court? Or is it the deep state? Could Senator Dianne Feinstein or President Obama walk into CIA headquarters, the NSA’s Fort Meade, or an operations base run by the Joint Special Operations Command and start going through computer systems searching for interesting items, if they wanted to?

Do elected officials and courts in the United States have a right to know what its secret organizations do with the authority they have granted our spies and killers? If not, who really runs the government? If the national security state can exist above and outside the rule of law, what kind of government is this?

President Eisenhower is famous for warning us about the power of the military industrial complex. But he also worried about the power of secretive, covert intelligence agencies. Describing the CIA's efforts to combat the influence of the Soviet Union, Eisenhower said:

We were engaged in the defense of a way of life, and the great danger was that in defending this way of life we would find ourselves resorting to methods that endangered this way of life.

Eisenhower was right. The institutions that now make up the intelligence community in the United States threaten American democracy. Their obsessive secrecy, disregard for the public, and willingness to mislead or outright lie in order to get what they want demonstrate that they exist outside or above the rule of law.

The backlash against unofficial leaks and the heavy-handed prosecution of whistleblowers show that truth-telling is kryptonite to the National Security state's power. That's why, if we are interested in regaining democratic control over our government, we must both reject state secrecy in the name of "national security", and support whistleblowers who risk their lives to expose what's really going on in the belly of the deep state.

The deep state v. democracy

The phrase ‘deep state’ originates in Turkey, but the deep state’s emergence in the United States dates to the close of World War II, a watershed moment in American history that saw the birth of the military industrial complex, the National Security Council, and the Central Intelligence Agency. What is the deep state? In 2005, former Turkish president Suleymann Demirel described the secretive military and police powers that he viewed as having fundamentally overcome public democratic institutions in his country.

“It is a fundamental principle that there is one state,” he said, but “in our country there are two. There is one deep state and one other state. The state that should be real is the spare one, the one that should be spare is the real one.”

People familiar with the history and politics of the Levant and North Africa know well the various terms used to describe the agencies of the deep state in autocratic and dictatorial regimes from Iran to Morocco. In Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Saudi Arabia and Syria, these forces are known as the mukhabarat, which means ‘intelligence’. These are the secret police. In Mohamed Reza Shah’s Iran, they went by the name SAVAK, for ‘Organization of Intelligence and National Security’. In present day Iran, they are known as VEVAK, or ‘Ministry of Intelligence and Security’. In Morocco the secret police organization is the Directorate of Territorial Surveillance or DST. Their methods include warrantless surveillance, torture, detainment without charge, bribery, assassination, blackmail, and espionage. Sound familiar?

There for a long time existed a prevailing assumption in the United States and Europe that these activities and organizations thrived only in “the East”, and that outwardly autocratic or dictatorial regimes -- not ‘democratic’ ‘Western’ governments -- deployed murderous, politically-driven, insular and secretive ‘intelligence’ agencies. Decades after the congressional investigations into the so-called ‘intelligence’ community in the 1970s, it is impossible to maintain this myth. But people can and do continue to claim that organizations like the CIA operate in the service of elected officials -- hamstrung by robust democratic oversight -- and not the other way around.

The events of the past twelve years should go a long way towards undermining the assertion that ‘western’ intelligence agencies like the CIA are controlled by congress or the executive, but more distant history shows that intelligence agencies in the United States have always done things their way. From the CIA’s coup in Iran -- which President Eisenhower initially opposed and would not have happened if his guidance had been heeded -- to the FBI’s war on civil rights and anti-war activists, and the NSA’s illegal surveillance in OPERATION SHAMROCK, US history is chock full of examples that undermine the claim that a ruthless deep state doesn’t operate independently of democratic institutions, if not also in opposition to them.

Describing Turkey, David Phillips wrote for the Council on Foreign Relations: “The deep state – a shadowy network involving the military and intelligence apparatus as well as the state bureaucracy -- is the ultimate arbiter of power.” That description fits the United States, too.

The deep state has overpowered its public democratic institutions when a government’s “national security bureaucracy is sufficiently muscled and autonomous to work relatively independently of [its] political leaders.” In the wake of the Snowden leaks, who can deny that this is the case with the United States? The press reports that the President of the United States and the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee did not know that the NSA was wiretapping the Prime Minister of Germany, one of the US government’s closest allies. Most of congress is completely shut out of information about surveillance and covert programs that they nonetheless vote to fund and, at least in the broadest of ways, authorize.

And this behavior isn’t new. Historical volumes about the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover repeatedly reference his deft manipulation of political officials including presidents -- either by withholding information from them ‘for their own good’, or by operating programs behind their backs with no intention of ever revealing their existence.

As my colleague Jay Stanley eloquently described, so-called National Security Officials have a knack for assuming they know what is best for everyone, and acting accordingly. He attributes this to arrogance. But while narcissism probably plays a role here, the primary reason they don’t consult the public about their activities is because they know large numbers of us would recoil in horror if we knew what they were really doing with our money, and in our names. The programs are kept secret not simply because officials arrogantly assume they know what is best for us; they are kept secret primarily because officials know that an honest accounting of their powers might result in a public backlash that would limit them.

Working “independently” of democratically elected or appointed public officials enables the deep state to violate the law, behave immorally and unethically, and act against the interests of the majority of people in the country, as well as the world. It also, critically, allows intelligence agencies to continue to vacuum up precious public resources without having to show either a majority of elected officials or the public any evidence that its programs do anything useful.

The CIA’s war on democracy and the war on whistleblowers at home

Perhaps no agency in the United States represents more concretely the dangers inherent to the deep state’s triumph over democratic institutions than the CIA. In 1971, Senator Stuart Symington, a member of the Joint Senate Committee for CIA Oversight, told the public that “There is no federal agency of our government whose activities receive less scrutiny and control than the CIA.” Despite the intelligence reforms of the 1970s, the CIA continues to operate above and beyond the rule of law.

Former secretary of state Dean Acheson has said of the CIA, “I had the gravest forebodings about this organization, and warned the President that as set up neither he, the National Security Council, nor anyone else would be in a position to know what it was doing or to control it.”

For readers interested to learn in detail about how the secrecy governing CIA operations has enabled the agency to waste taxpayer dollars in fruitless, dangerous, and murderous missions, read Tim Weiner’s book “A Legacy of Ashes”. It dispels the myth that the agency is a James Bond-style, suave and effective spook organization. Instead, the CIA record is revealed as a series of embarrassments, disappointments, and shameful crimes that came back to bite the people of the United States and the world. Like the CIA’s more recent work, including the horrors of the rendition program, the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, and its monstrous ‘signature strike’ drone “crowd killings,” none of those operations would have been possible had it not been for the shroud of secrecy covering all things CIA.

Torture and disappearances happen in secret prisons. Memos justifying and documents describing the murder of untold numbers of civilians deemed ‘militants’ because of their age and place of birth are kept secret for a reason. The NSA did not tell the public it was harvesting our associational records, stealing our private communications from Google and Yahoo, or giving the FBI access to our communications sucked up without warrants. If we had known the NSA was doing these things, we might have stopped the agency from doing them.

Despite claims from the heads of the NSA, CIA, FBI and DHS, and from their apologists, state secrecy more often shields from public scrutiny illegal, unethical, wasteful, or embarrassing facts than it does protect legitimately classified information. The proceedings in the ACLU’s down-the-rabbit-hole drone FOIA lawsuit against the CIA is just one among countless examples of how this crisis in democratic governance manifests today.

The deep state is not interested in democracy, and never has been. It is interested in power. In order to maintain and expand its power, it must maintain an iron curtain of secrecy governing its operations. That is why the deep state is terrified of whistleblowers, and lashes out at them, calling them traitors and prosecuting them under Draconian laws like the 1917 Espionage Act.

When evidence of its operations cannot be hidden -- for example with the CIA’s drone strikes in Pakistan and elsewhere -- the deep state ensures that evidence of its involvement remains secret, if only technically. While we may know because of outside evidence that the CIA engages in crowd killings and the bombings of funerals and rescue workers, we cannot take meaningful legal action in the United States against these crimes if we cannot see the legal memos that authorize these kinds of strikes. Secrecy protects illegality.

The deep state and democratic institutions do not speak the same language. That’s why when accidental transparency -- in the form of whistleblowers or leaks -- forces secret programs or policies into the light of day, the deep state has only one substantive response to jurists and to the public both: State Secrecy cannot be disturbed, because of National Security.

It’s past time we saw through and denounced that poisonous lie. As Edward Snowden’s leaks reveal, state secrecy does not protect us -- it protects the deep state. Secrecy is the lynchpin of intelligence abuses. It is the oxygen that feeds the deep state. Without it, its institutions and programs would wither and die.

Towards that end, let a million whistleblowers bloom.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Another worthy read, really. on 11/10/2013 20:03:51 MST Print View

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/519336/bruce-schneier-nsa-spying-is-making-us-less-safe/



http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ghcq-targets-engineers-with-fake-linkedin-pages-a-932821.html


http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/04/opinion/zelizer-nsa-surveillance-risks/index.html?sr=sharebar_twitter

Edited by Kat_P on 11/11/2013 10:07:18 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What we can do on 11/17/2013 09:04:31 MST Print View

We can support senators like this one :

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/14/usa-security-bill-idUSL2N0IZ1VI20131114

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Court opinions about NSA breaking the law were kept secret.... on 11/19/2013 07:10:34 MST Print View

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/11/judge-nsa-exceeded-the-scope-of-authorized-acquisition-continuously/

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Why FISA court judges rule the way they do. on 12/03/2013 19:12:33 MST Print View

http://www.npr.org/2013/12/03/248320220/why-fisa-court-judges-rule-the-way-they-do

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
Cellphone tracking story is latest on 12/04/2013 20:15:53 MST Print View

Good NPR report. If you read the actual FISA court opinions you find that the judges admonish NSA for repeated willful violations but then go ahead and continue to approve the programs, begging the question, what does it take to actually get FISA court to say "no." Apparently not in vocabulary.
Today's cellphone tracking story is another huge blockbuster, indicating how Orwellian our world has become.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-tracking-cellphone-locations-worldwide-snowden-documents-show/2013/12/04/5492873a-5cf2-11e3-bc56-c6ca94801fac_story.html

I would also like to call attention to Rolling Stone's recent great story on Snowden and Greenwald.
http://m.rollingstone.com/politics/news/snowden-and-greenwald-the-men-who-leaked-the-secrets-20131204

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Cellphone tracking story is latest on 12/04/2013 22:32:19 MST Print View

If the FISA court said no and it resulted (or even was just unfairly blamed) for terrorist event, it would not be good.

If they say yes when they shouldn't, no one will know, and the damage is slow to amount to anything.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Cellphone tracking story is latest on 12/04/2013 22:41:38 MST Print View

Thanks for the links James. Orwellian is about right.

Here is another one

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/reporter-explains-nsa-collection-of-cellphone-data/2013/12/04/67b85252-5d26-11e3-95c2-13623eb2b0e1_video.html

Edited by Kat_P on 12/05/2013 07:28:52 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
"There is a war on journalism" . Democracy Now. on 12/05/2013 14:41:49 MST Print View

... we’re seeing this intensification of a war against journalists and journalism...


http://www.democracynow.org/2013/12/5/there_is_a_war_on_journalism

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: "There is a war on journalism" . Democracy Now. on 12/05/2013 18:13:22 MST Print View

"we’re seeing this intensification of a war against journalists and journalism..."

That's just the first round of the war, when they go for the eyes and ears. Then it's a few shots to the head to scramble the brains(leaders). After that they can take their time working the body(the rest of us) over. A couple of rounds of that and it's a win by a TKO, leaving the quivering, cowed masses to do the grunt work required to maintain the 1% in the style to which they've become accustomed. You will be able to watch this one for free, because it won't be televised on HBO; it'll be happening all around you. Sort of a fascist version of "theater in the round", coming soon to your neighborhood "theaters".

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: "There is a war on journalism" . Democracy Now. on 12/05/2013 18:29:51 MST Print View

...

Edited by xnomanx on 12/18/2013 22:04:19 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Coverage of a story that just won't quit. on 12/10/2013 12:41:48 MST Print View

And it shouldn't.


http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/10/snowden-for-person-of-the-year-and-coverage-of-a-story-that-just-wont-quit/?_r=1&

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
open letter to potential future whistleblowers on 12/16/2013 07:59:38 MST Print View

Written by former whistleblowers

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/11/whistleblowers-open-letter-after-snowden-revelations

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
60 minute bs on 12/16/2013 08:31:59 MST Print View

@Spelt, thanks for the link. I have been following Thomas Drake for a while, but missed this article.

No doubt few go beyond the 60 minutes propaganda...

http://blog.erratasec.com/2013/12/how-we-know-60-minutes-nsa-interview.html#.Uq8cZ7K9KK0

Edited by Kat_P on 12/16/2013 08:34:20 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Unconstitutional on 12/16/2013 12:18:43 MST Print View

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
amnesty? on 12/16/2013 13:44:34 MST Print View

You're welcome Kat. One more:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25399345

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
federal ruling against mass telephony data collection on 12/16/2013 17:30:56 MST Print View

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/12/historic-ruling-federal-judge-declares-nsa-mass-phone-surveillance-likely

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Unconstitutional on 12/16/2013 18:17:54 MST Print View

What took so long. Unfortunately we know where this will end up.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Unconstitutional on 12/17/2013 08:38:21 MST Print View

From the NY times

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/opinion/a-powerful-rebuke-of-mass-surveillance.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/18/2013 19:08:35 MST Print View

A glimmer of hope and common sense.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/nsa-metadata-report-terrorism-snowden

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/18/2013 19:51:49 MST Print View

Doesn't go anywhere near far enough. But maybe there is a little momentum building.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/18/2013 20:17:57 MST Print View

That's what I am hoping for, the momentum...but I agree that the changes are very minor and most likely will not include nearly enough oversight. Any organization with this much power is not going to give any of it up easily.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Sen. Patrick Leahy : " ....NSA you have gone too far" on 12/19/2013 21:14:03 MST Print View

We still need to discriminate from surface actions and play acting for the public and real change.

That's the problem with black ops type stuff to begin with, it's so secretive and compartmentalized that it doesn't really answer to anyone.

Likely such things will just keep on going as is, perhaps with some other individuals or groups. If NSA and such won't do it themselves, they will hire private corporations to do it for them.

Such is the world and especially this country in the grand scheme.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Officials defense of metadata collection is unraveling on 12/20/2013 07:23:27 MST Print View

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-defenses-of-nsa-phone-program-may-be-unraveling/2013/12/19/6927d8a2-68d3-11e3-ae56-22de072140a2_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Obama's disappointing response on 12/20/2013 22:08:44 MST Print View

Not surprised, really

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/opinion/mr-obamas-disappointing-response.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 08:56:41 MST Print View

I was driving down the road so I listened to his news conference on NPR, wondering if Katrina would be satisfied : )

He said that no damage had been done to anyone, like someone put in jail

I used to talk to Soviet emigree. He made some innocuous comments about the government, complaining. Someone heard, reported it, and made life hell so he left the country. If the NSA was using data to punish or reward people for political statements, then the program would be much worse.

Obama, FISA court judges, NSA people,..., are all in the same spot, if some terrorist event happens that could have been prevented by listening, then they'll be screwed.

Maybe Obama will make some reasonable changes. Maybe public response and Snowden's clever slow release of information will motivate Obama and congress to do more.

Someone asked Obama if there should be a deal with Snowden. Obama said that should be handled by Attorney General - he didn't say that Snowden is a criminal so maybe...

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 09:26:27 MST Print View

"I was driving down the road so I listened to his news conference on NPR, wondering if Katrina would be satisfied"

Does that mean you're satisfied Jarey?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 10:49:02 MST Print View

I think continued pressure by us will result in more control of NSA

I am hoping this public awareness and action will morph into the huge amount of money that has purchased our government, that's a much worse problem

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
No on 12/21/2013 11:00:58 MST Print View

No Jerry, I am far from satisfied.
You may be satisfied and be reassured by Obama's words, but your attempt at minimizing the damage done to our democracy is contributing to the problem. I can only hope hat no one that is reading this thread will be reassured by your words.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: No on 12/21/2013 14:42:43 MST Print View

I agree with you this problem should be fixed.

But, what damage has been done to our democracy? Have any elections been effected or people wrongly put in jail?

This could happen in the future so it's an important problem.

Money in politics has caused different people to be elected president and congressmen. Some of the biggest companies don't pay any U.S. income tax. The cost of healthcare has sky-rocketed to the point where it's screwing up the economy. We have outsourced a lot of business to other countries which is screwing up the economy...

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: No on 12/21/2013 17:42:33 MST Print View

"But, what damage has been done to our democracy? Have any elections been effected or people wrongly put in jail?"

I don't think elections have been affected, but I don't really know.
Have people been wrongly put in jail? Probably, but I have no literature at the moment. Whistleblowers are being treated as traitors and freedom of the press is at great risk at the moment.

There are several ways in which this secret massive data collection has hurt our democracy. The main one is that anything of this scale, where citizens have lost this much privacy, supposedly - and probably originally so- to protect us from terrorists....should have been a national discussion.
I repeat : This should have been a national discussion in which Americans weigh the pros and cons and decide if they agree to this kind of data mining, collecting and storing. The discussion should have involved what is done with the data, if we agree to have it collected. The discussion should have involved what can and cannot be done with it.
None of that happened.

I realize that many are completely ok with not being part of the decision making, letting a few do it all for them, but something of this scale should have never happened without the citizen's consent.
What will happen to all this information remains to be seen but I don't blame those that call this effort "Orwellian". I hope but don't trust that a number of people will end up jailed without due process because of this.

Edited by Kat_P on 12/21/2013 17:54:46 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 18:56:15 MST Print View

Disappointing!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/white-house-tries-to-prevent-judge-from-ruling-on-surveillance-efforts.html?hp&_r=1&

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
NSA surveillance is bad for security on 12/21/2013 18:59:18 MST Print View

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/140214/nadia-heninger-and-j-alex-halderman/tales-from-the-crypto-community#cid=soc-twitter-at-snapshot-tales_from_the_crypto_communit-000000

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 19:46:03 MST Print View

"The panel’s experts concluded that “there has been no instance in which N.S.A. could say with confidence that the outcome would have been different” in a terror investigation without the collection of the telephone data. “Moreover, now that the existence of the program has been disclosed publicly, we suspect that it is likely to be less useful still.”

There is an odd logic only "intelligence" people understand

The illegal surveilance isn't useful but we have to keep it secret or it will be less useful?

You have to root for Snowden because he's outwitting the lot of them : )

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Obama's disappointing response on 12/21/2013 19:50:01 MST Print View

This gives Obama a bit of credit and criticism.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/12/nsa-report-white-house-the-good-and-the-bad.html?mobify=0

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
On Salon. "Put the NSA on trial" on 12/29/2013 11:52:09 MST Print View

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/put_the_nsa_on_trial/?utm_content=bufferc9522&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Thank you Snowden on 01/02/2014 22:56:30 MST Print View

For bringing out in the open the illegal operations of the NSA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?_r=1&


Edited.
I do hope to cause the apologists some discomfort.

Edited by Kat_P on 01/02/2014 23:05:07 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 11:01:31 MST Print View

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/09/nsa-gchq-illegal-european-parliamentary-inquiry?CMP=twt_fd

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 12:31:02 MST Print View

Hi Kat,

Just wanted to say that i appreciate your dedication to this subject and the links that you are providing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 16:11:44 MST Print View

Hi Justin, thank you. I am at home with an injured foot, doing a lot of reading and there are so many articles of interest that are not easy to come by if only checking the major media outlets. Others have pointed out that doing this isn't really changing anything, and I think they have a good point. I still feel that giving links to informative articles may spark an interest in a couple of people.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: The a Guardian reports on EU Parliamentary Inquiry on 01/09/2014 16:54:36 MST Print View

"Others have pointed out that doing this isn't really changing anything..."

Bringing an issue up may result in change, along with everyone else that thinks it's important. You never know what effect it will have. Doing nothing won't change anything...

The "Occupy" movement seems to have faded away, yet now Obama is out there saying the #1 issue is inequality between the wealthiest few and the rest of us.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
NSA has collected almost 200 million text messages a day. on 01/16/2014 15:00:02 MST Print View

Extracting contacts, locations and credit card details.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/16/nsa-collects-millions-text-messages-daily-untargeted-global-sweep



And, by the way, according to ACLU the soon to come changes to the NSA will actually solidify the worst aspects of this mass surveillance, but it will be presented in a way that anyone without an inquiring and critical mind will put aside the minimal concerns they barely had.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
First step, long way to go on 01/17/2014 12:04:49 MST Print View

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/01/17/a-good-first-step-but-the-fundamental-argument-remains-unresolved/



One of the problems being that the discussion shifted to "where " and "how" to store the metadata collected on all US citizens...instead of "when did we, as a country, decide we will allow this? ".

I have said this before, but anything of this magnitude should have never happened without a national discussion.


Edited to add a link to how the ACLU grades this "reform"

https://www.aclu.org/national-security/where-does-president-stand-nsa-reform


And Greenwald at the Guardian, also in response to this morning's über patriotic display

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/17/obama-nsa-reforms-bulk-surveillance-remains


And a good piece on msnbc

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/time-end-the-surveillance-state


And Barton Gellman's response to the "reforms"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obamas-restrictions-on-nsa-surveillance-rely-on-narrow-definition-of-spying/2014/01/17/2478cc02-7fcb-11e3-93c1-0e888170b723_story.html



On Politico " President Obama embraces George W. Bush's anti-terror tactics"



http://www.politico.com/story/2014/01/president-obama-national-security-102334.html?hp=l6

Edited by Kat_P on 01/17/2014 19:24:30 MST.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: First step, long way to go on 01/18/2014 10:07:20 MST Print View

Window dressing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 06:01:23 MST Print View

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/23/politics/nsa-telephone-records-privacy/



And this excellent article on the "new normal".




http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/the-war-on-terrors-authoritarian-template/

Edited by Kat_P on 01/24/2014 06:05:43 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 07:50:11 MST Print View

Jian Ghomeshi on "Q" interviewed couple (the Raines) that broke in and stole FBI documents:
http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2014/01/14/activists-who-robbed-fbi-office-share-little-known-story/

This revealed how J Edgar Hoover illegally blackmailed people like Martin Luther King Jr., John F Kennedy, and practically every other U.S. politician. He saw "communists" everywhere - kept files on practically everyone.

If those people had not broken in and illegally stole documents, we would likely not know about it now - like Snowden.

The Raines were private citizens without security clearances, Snowden violated his security clearance - so I can see how the authorities are freaked out more in the Snowden case. There are legitimate secrets that shouldn't be revealed.

If a J Edgar Hoover had access to NSA data, he could do much more harm than back then because data is so much more accessible.

Nobody has used the NSA data (yet) to blackmail anyone or construct files on citizens that have strong political opinions, so in this sense, the NSA scandal isn't so bad.

The Raines can now go public because statute of limitations has run out. Is there a statutue of limitations that would ever free Snowden?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 07:54:19 MST Print View

"Nobody has used the NSA data (yet) to blackmail anyone or construct files on citizens that have strong political opinions, so in this sense, the NSA scandal isn't so bad."


I disagree. We do not know what is currently being done with the data and more importantly, what could be done with it in the future.
Also, it is disappointing to see the majority of the left either defending or minimizing this outrageous attack on civil liberties ( or the drone wars ..) Had this happened ( the exposure part) during a Republican presidency, the left would be very vocal, and rightfully so.

I believe that one of the reasons our political system is so bad, is because the people that support a candidate and then elected official, will not speak up agaist them when they should. It is a case of " well....it is still better than the alternative". While that may well be true, it is not enough and has gotten us into worse and worse situations. No matter what , about half the country will support a President; throw in a terrorist threat, or attack, and pretty much everyone rallies behind them.
In a previous post I said that I am not happy with the current president; you changed it and asked me why I do not like Obama. I had high hopes, I was impressed that this country was ready for an African American president. I believe he did mean well when he came into office, even if I did not agree with all his ideas.
I am not an easy person; I am hard on myself and others and if there is one person we should all be hard on, it is the person that holds the highest office of the only word power.

Edited by Kat_P on 01/24/2014 08:11:07 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Leaving on 01/24/2014 08:08:34 MST Print View

I am working for a few hours now and then heading to the GGG.
Be nice while I am gone... :)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Privacy Board "NSA telephone records collection illegal" on 01/24/2014 08:23:59 MST Print View

I agree, we don't know what has been done with data. Snowden didn't reveal anything, but maybe he didn't have access to that. The technology has only existed for a few years.

There is definitely a huge potential for abuse, way worse than Orwell or J Edgar Hoover imagined. Thanks to Snowden, maybe we can avoid this.

I agree "drone wars" are bad. Our leaders are "playing checkers instead of chess". If we have superior military weapons, then the opponents will retaliate with "unconventional weapons". Like the North Vietnamese. Or the U.S. when we revolted from Britain. Or the Muslims in the Middle East today. Like the 9/11 attack in New York.

The only solution is to quit using military weapons.

I think the reason our political system is so bad right now is that it's bought off, not that politicians are fearful of being spied on by NSA. NSA is a potential problem if we don't do something about it.

I think Obama has made a few baby steps. If we keep pushing, they will take more steps. They really need to make a deal with Snowden - limited punishment in return for returning to U.S., testifying, giving up any remaining data.

You must have an unrealistic view of what Obama can do. Yeah, he's president, but he needs congress and judiciary to do anything. And the executive branch isn't his puppet either. He can tell people to do things, but then they'll go off and do something else. If you've had experience managing people, even a few people, you've started to figure that out.

I really appreciate all your posts about the NSA, etc. I don't agree 100%, maybe 90% which is pretty good.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Ok on 01/24/2014 08:34:26 MST Print View

Ok, last post for the next couple of days.

I know a president can only do so much, but we can do is
1. Be transparent as he had promised.
2. Forget about the second term. Do the right thing, go for broke , leave a legacy in one term.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ok on 01/24/2014 08:46:40 MST Print View

Regardless of second term, if he loses political support, he won't be able to do anything.

If he is pushing things that other politicians supporting will get them not re-elected, then there will be no support and nothing done and the other party will get into power next election.

In 2010, a lot of Democrats that supported Obamacare were replaced by Republicans.

Everything is political.

If they're 100% political - then they're George Bush - two wars for no reason

If they're 0% political - that's Jimmy Carter. He said decisions would be made based on what was best for the country. Political considerations were ignored. As a result, Reagan was elected and we've endured decades of right wing insanity as a result. A bit of a simplification, but some truth to that...

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Ok on 01/24/2014 10:16:59 MST Print View

>>Nobody has used the NSA data (yet) to blackmail anyone or construct files on citizens that have strong political opinions,

Hahahaha such optimism, jerry. :)

Kat, whenever you get back around, could you say what you mean by "most of the left" that you have seen? I suspect "the left" I see is more left than most of it, and I see basically zero defense of the NSA. Are you talking officials, ordinary citizens you talk to...?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Ok on 01/26/2014 14:33:43 MST Print View

Hi Spelt,
You did catch me in a sweeping statement that I may not be able to back up , but I will try.
For one, I follow the articles and publications of a number of journalists and activists on the left, including Chase Madar, Kevin Gosztola and Rania Khalek, that are reporting on NSA activities, freedom of the press as well as drone wars and our involvement in the Middle East. I have posted links to some of their writings on this thread. They are not alone in pointing out what they call the "disturbing " silence of the left when it comes to government surveillance, innocent lives lost to our drone wars and the tenuous situation in the Middle East.
I am only repeating myself here, but the more vocal folks on the left on this forum, are either ignoring these issues or giving our elected officials a pass .
Were we under a republican presidency, these apologists would rightfully make a big stink.
By the way, where are the pacifists? I long for the days when people demonstrated against wars...

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok on 01/26/2014 16:09:29 MST Print View

Well, I wasn't asking you to back it up in any challenging sense, just more wondering where you're seeing it and by extension what you consider "the left." I consider most all national level "liberal" politicians to be centrist at best, but it is true that they are characterized as "the left" just b/c they are Democrats. By that measure the response of "the left" has been disgraceful. I do not think this is a failure of leftist ideals so much as a misapplied label: American Democratic politicians are, by and large, neoliberal imperialists with a kinder view towards sexual autonomy than Republicans. This is not to take a moderate's cop-out and call them the same, but what differences there are are not usually in the realm of foreign policy or domestic surveillance. FDR, hero of "the left", authorized the Japanese internment camps, after all. The U.S. has a terrible track record in this area. I think the response from the official "left" is par for the course.

I'm not sure if you're counting me in the "more vocal" lefties here, but it's true that while I read Chaff, I don't often post. I do discuss politics elsewhere, and sign what petitions I can, and write letters to representatives. Not sure what else you would expect an ordinary citizen to do, and you can't be sure that others you might see as silent aren't active in ways you don't know about. If you're talking about people who are lefty, who post, and who soft-pedal this issue, I have no defense for them. I am very much against surveillance. Although I admit I feel some despair about the possibility of actual change, I would hope whatever comments I've made have not given the impression I am defending anyone in power who is defending the NSA's actions.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok on 01/26/2014 16:27:25 MST Print View

I appreciate you bringing this up.

I don't give Obama a pass, but I don't think he should be thrown out of office. Continued pressure from us will push them to make things better.

It seems like support and criticsm is independent of party affiliation - some Rs and Ds support illegal NSA spying, and some Rs and Ds are critical.

I hate to admit I agree with Rand Paul, but he acknowledged Snowden revelations have raised issues that wouldn't have been otherwise. But you can't give Snowden a pass because he violated his security clearance commitments. Paul said Snowden shouldn't get a lifetime or 30 year sentence but wouldn't get more specific.

I think they should make deal with Snowden. A maximum of 1 year or couple years in a "country club" prison in return for testifying and revealing everything he knows.

It's funny to hear Rogers make up some story about how Snowden is a Russian spy.

Or Chertoff concedes Snowden shouldn't be executed but that's about as far as he's willing to go.

As long as I mentioned Rand Paul, David Gregory asked him twice if he agreed with Huckabee's comments about women's libido and their "sugar uncle" giving them birth control and Rand Paul wouldn't answer, just said that women in his family are doing just fine.

And Rand Paul's solution to economic problems is to lower taxes on corporations. But in the last 50 years, average corporate tax rates have gone down from 50% to 20%. If you further reduce their taxes then it will make our deficit worse. Reducing their taxes has not improved the economy.

That's the thing about the Tea Party - they talk about all these libertarian and religious philosophical ideas, but if you look at what they propose, it's consistent with being bought off by political contributions to favor a few super wealthy people. "Follow the money".

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ok on 01/28/2014 09:32:13 MST Print View

Pete Sieger just died.

He refused to testify to congress about Communist scare. As a result, he lost popularity. His group, The Weavers, died. etc... That was a very effective way to destroy his political voice.

When we look at NSA data, this is what we should be afraid of. Data will be used to politically destroy opponents.

So far, I don't think the NSA data has been mis-used to attack people, but the potential is worse than anything in the past.

We shouldn't over-state the damage currently done by NSA data collection

We shouldn't under-estimate what could possibly happen in the future if we don't fix this

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Damage currently done on 02/25/2014 09:05:20 MST Print View

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/



Even though Jerry encourages us not to overstate the damage currently done by the NSA collection of data....and only worry about it during a different administration.



@jerry. Your loyalty/blindness is disconcerting but pretty common on both sides and is partly responsible for how bad things are.

Edited by Kat_P on 02/25/2014 09:10:58 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
"The President's proposed reforms are radically insufficient" on 02/25/2014 10:37:56 MST Print View

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/06/can-privacy-be-saved/?insrc=hpss

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Damage currently done on 02/28/2014 20:40:05 MST Print View

The reason not to overstate, is that then if someone finds out you overstated, they will ignore you from then on.

I agree with you that NSA data is serious problem and appreciate your links. I hear many of them on the radio.

I think bigger problem is how our government has been bought. Almost all laws now are corrupted. We have all these problems like NSA data, health care, under employment,... but it's difficult to do anything when the government will do whatever their donors tell them to do. Citizen's United.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Optic Nerve: millions of Yahoo webcam images intercepted by GCHQ on 03/06/2014 23:44:07 MST Print View

With the help of the NSA.



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Not just metadata. on 03/18/2014 11:52:21 MDT Print View

This is content.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-surveillance-program-reaches-into-the-past-to-retrieve-replay-phone-calls/2014/03/18/226d2646-ade9-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
First Edward Snowden Interview on 03/20/2014 15:02:08 MDT Print View

German television does first Edward Snowden interview, in English.



http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151



Edited to add the link.

Edited by Kat_P on 03/20/2014 15:02:41 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Another great "Fresh Air" interview worth hearing on 04/02/2014 18:05:02 MDT Print View

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/04/02/298335286/while-warning-of-chinese-cyberthreat-u-s-launches-its-own-attack



Also addresses how much this administration has compromised the freedom of the press .



And on Democracy Now ( hardly a right slant....):

Barack Obama, the least transparent president in US history.

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/3/27/barack_obama_the_least_transparent_president

Edited by Kat_P on 04/02/2014 18:18:16 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Pulitzer Prize for articles based on Snowden's leaks! on 04/14/2014 18:03:08 MDT Print View

"The Washington Post and Guardian U.S. won the Pulitzer Prize for public service, among the most prestigious awards in journalism, for their articles based on National Security Agency documents leaked by the former government contractor Edward J. Snowden".



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/business/media/coverage-of-snowden-and-boston-attack-win-pulitzer-prizes.html?_r=0

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 06:10:52 MDT Print View

"No place to hide:Edward Snowden, the NSA and the US Security State"

Here is a blur about it at Tomdispatch:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175843/tomgram%3A_glenn_greenwald%2C_how_i_met_edward_snowden/#.U3IC1_f2Aa0.twitter

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 09:45:18 MDT Print View

Here we're entering a climate of Government overreach that is beyond Orwellian and it's not even a blip on the collective radar. I cannot figure out what to make of the fact that people with guns and "Don't Tread On Me" flags will happily rally around outdated relics like Cliven Bundy while revelations of NSA surveillance take on an increasingly surrealistic nature.

I listened to Greenwald on the radio this morning talking about the recent discovery that the the NSA is now also physically intercepting packages from companies the likes of Cisco to install backdoor technologies before routers and other hardware are received by the purchaser.

And still, no serious political or protest movement has managed to coalesce from the right or the left over this issue. You'd think this would be something that could provide some common ground. I've written my share of letters over this and will continue to do so but the fact that no mass movement that I can detect exists is incredibly disheartening.

On the other hand, to expect to solve a problem like this within the realm of democracy and politics when the agencies implementing these programs obviously have no respect for the validity of legal process leaves me wondering what actions can/will be taken that will even be effective.

Is anyone willing to boycott cellular providers, internet service providers, and any other businesses that have knowingly conspired with the NSA?
Dubious.

Edited by xnomanx on 05/13/2014 09:47:07 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 10:07:22 MDT Print View

"...not even a blip on the collective radar..."

There are a lot of people talking about it, like politicians

Clapper testified the NSA doesn't record cell phone calls, Snowden released contradictory info, Clapper apologized for lying

Obama implemented some constraints. Congress is now proposing more constraints. Snowden says its a step in the right direction.

I think there's a lot of people talking about it and making changes.

Not that we should rest, job is only part done.

A lot of the problem is just technology. Back in the bad old days, they had to clip onto a pair of wires. Now everything is digital so it's much easier to spy on people.

So as to not offend Kat ( :) ) I really appreciate her links about this and Glen Greenwald is really interesting to read about/hear. I've been listening to him for years. He used to be on the now defunct Air America radio all the time. They talked about how there's this locked room at the cell phone provider that only the NSA could enter. The communication cables into the cell phone provider first entered this room. There was documentation how they tapped the line and listened to all communications. Just needed a Snowden to make it more interesting to us people.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 10:10:08 MDT Print View

I doubt anyone will boycott the cell companies; apparently they did not have much of a choice in the matter either. Still guilty is my book, but they are not the ones that are supposed to safeguard our rights.

Why no big public outrage? Beats me. When you get the news from the main three or four "outlets" you get more "important" news to worry about.
One would think, as you say, that this could unite us, but when you have even some on the far left call a whistleblower a traitor and enemy of the state you realize that very few use principles to make their judgement calls.

Thanks so much forthe writing you have been doing. To this day I have only written one letter. My contribution to any solution is pretty dismal, but anyone reading the links I have been posting should be better informed and more than mildly outraged. I hope people do take the time to read up, instead of just battling me personally on this issue.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 10:12:21 MDT Print View

call your senators and representative

especially when they're considering some legislation or doing some investigating

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 10:28:40 MDT Print View

MSNBC just happens to be talking to Greenwald

An interesting tidbit, is that initially, Snowden asked Greenwald to install encryption software, but Greenwald just blew him off, not knowing who Snowden was. Then, a friend told him to reconsider and take Snowden seriously. Of course, we now know, that if Snowden had communicated un-encrypted, the NSA would have been listening and may have busted Snowden before he released all his documents. But I can see Greenwald's point - why would he listen to someone that said they had something important to say but you have to install encryption software first - sounds like a paranoid conspiracy theorist mentally ill person...

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/13/2014 19:32:29 MDT Print View

Just watched part of "United States of Secrets" on PBS ( on my computer).
I think Gellman said it best on the first interview I heard, which prompted me to start this thread; there should have been a national conversation with the American people in which they got to decided if security was worth this kind of intrusion and data collection. The programs that we are hearing about, the collection of data, the spyware should have never happened without the consent of the American people.

Edited: finished watching and I am impressed by the quality of the piece and encouraged that this is being shown to the public and also dismayed at the whole thing.
Hayden gives me the chills.

Edited by Kat_P on 05/13/2014 23:23:28 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
More in depth Frontline Interviews on 05/14/2014 10:32:28 MDT Print View

In depth interviews with the NSA scandal players; those that broke the law and those that blew the whistle.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/oral-history/united-states-of-secrets/

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/14/2014 11:15:35 MDT Print View

Not dismal, Kat. I have this thread bookmarked; it's an excellent reference.

Craig, telecommunications providers are effectively an oligarchy. I don't see where boycotting could be accomplished on any scale large enough to make a difference. Alternate, uncorrupted infrastructure just isn't there, and unplugging entirely isn't a realistic option for the amount of people it would take for a boycott to reach critical mass. Better to go after them directly. Ma Bell got broken up once before. It can happen again.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/14/2014 12:59:07 MDT Print View

Recorded it last night and just watched it. Frontline is one of the best TV programs and this is one of the best Frontlines.

Hayden gives me the chills also.

One thing they misssed is they knew about 9/11 ahead of time, as in another great Frontline, "The Man Who Knew" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

Basically, during Clinton they lucked out and discovered and stopped a plot to crash airplanes into buildings. They knew about Al Queda. During the Bush transition, they warned them - the president, vice president, security people,... but they dismissed.

They didn't need enhanced illegal wiretapping to prevent 9/11, just listen to those high level Clinton people yelling a warning to you : )

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/14/2014 15:10:14 MDT Print View

"Basically, during Clinton they lucked out and discovered and stopped a plot to crash airplanes into buildings. They knew about Al Queda. During the Bush transition, they warned them - the president, vice president, security people,... but they dismissed.

They didn't need enhanced illegal wiretapping to prevent 9/11, just listen to those high level Clinton people yelling a warning to you : )"


Right....then why didn't Clinton take Bin Laden when he had the chance?

"Clinton: So we tried to be quite aggressive with them [al Qaeda]. We got – well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we’d been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, ’cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn’t and that’s how he wound up in Afghanistan"

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Glenn Greenwald's book comes out today. on 05/14/2014 15:33:50 MDT Print View

Looks like you're asking, then answering your question

At least you're acknowledging the Bush Administration knew about Bin Laden before 9/11

During Clinton, Bin Laden hadn't committed the 9/11 attack so not so obvious we should go after him with high priority. Reasonable to try to get the Saudis to take care of their own citizen.

Bush also had opportunities to get him but didn't, but it was after 9/11 so there was more priority

But my point was, the advocates of the illegal NSA spying justify it on the basis it could have prevented 9/11. The 9/11 attackers were known of and could have been prevented if we had used legal means. I'll stop short of claiming the Bush people ignored 9/11 because they could then use it to justify all sorts of things.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Terry Gross and Glenn Greenwald on 05/14/2014 16:06:07 MDT Print View

The Interview with Terry Gross and Glenn Greenwald just aired. Terry asked some questions that to me were no brainer, like " why does Snowden not return and face the music in the US"???? But those are the questions that many Americans really wonder, so I am glad she asked them.

An important point that unfortunately way too many people are still not well informed on is this:
"......One of the things ... that I think has been misunderstood about Edward Snowden ... is that he actually hasn't released a single document to the public. He could have if he wanted to: He could have uploaded the documents to the Internet on his own; he could have given them to foreign powers. There are all sorts of things he could have done, and what he did instead is he came to journalists and said, "I don't actually think that I, Edward Snowden, am the person who should be making the decisions about what the public should and shouldn't see. I actually think that's journalists who ought to be making that call and I want you to work within media organizations that have experience in making these decisions and make those judgments yourself." ... There's a huge responsibility that comes from making those choices."

Edited by Kat_P on 05/14/2014 16:13:54 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Why Snowden won't "man up" as Kerry jingoistically put it. on 05/28/2014 15:15:35 MDT Print View

Not very in depth but makes the point well enough.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/05/28/why-snowden-wont-as-kerry-jingoistically-put-it-man-up-trust-the-american-justice-system/

Edited by Kat_P on 05/28/2014 15:17:47 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Why Snowden won't "man up" as Kerry jingoistically put it. on 05/28/2014 16:56:23 MDT Print View

I just finished part 2 of Frontline, great story.

I agree, without Snowden we wouldn't be talking about this.

Clapper wouldn't have testified that the NSA wasn't looking at all emails, and then come back later and apologized for lying.

And there was no other way for Snowden to blow the whistle.

This seems so obvious, so what could Kerry be possibly be thinking with his "man up" B.S.?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Daniel Ellsberg on Snowden and Kerry on 05/30/2014 12:46:18 MDT Print View

"Snowden would not get a fair trial...and Kerry is wrong"


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/30/daniel-ellsberg-snowden-fair-trial-kerry-espionage-act

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Daniel Ellsberg on Snowden and Kerry on 05/30/2014 13:55:14 MDT Print View

"John Kerry's challenge to Snowden to return and face trial is either disingenuous or simply ignorant that current prosecutions under the Espionage Act allow no distinction whatever between a patriotic whistleblower and a spy. Either way, nothing excuses Kerry's slanderous and despicable characterizations of a young man who, in my opinion, has done more than anyone in or out of government in this century to demonstrate his patriotism, moral courage and loyalty to the oath of office the three of us swore: to support and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Yeah! Really! I just can't understand what all these people criticizing Snowden are thinking.

Anyone see that NBC interview of Snowden? Snowden is so much more well spoken than Kerry. Maybe they should make Snowden Secretary of State.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
A loss for all of us. on 06/02/2014 10:05:23 MDT Print View

Very sad.


"This is the latest victory of the Obama administration in their crackdown on sources, and in turn, investigative journalism. As the New York Times again reminded us today, they have "pursued leaks aggressively, bringing criminal charges in eight cases, compared with three under all previous administrations combined."



https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2014/06/supreme-court-rejects-reporters-privilege-case-nyt-reporter-faces-jail-protecting-his

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Some of what we know today and did not know a year ago on 06/08/2014 10:55:29 MDT Print View

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/65-65-things-we-know-about-nsa-surveillance-we-didnt-know-year-ago


Ps. This is not intended for those of us that believe we should not know what goes on.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Hacking online polls on 07/14/2014 18:31:58 MDT Print View

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-online-polls-ways-british-spies-seek-control-internet/


An list of GCHQ's programs that are used for propaganda and internet deception.



"• “Change outcome of online polls” (UNDERPASS)

• “Mass delivery of email messaging to support an Information Operations campaign” (BADGER) and “mass delivery of SMS messages to support an Information Operations campaign” (WARPARTH)

• “Disruption of video-based websites hosting extremist content through concerted target discovery and content removal.” (SILVERLORD)

• “Active skype capability. Provision of real time call records (SkypeOut and SkypetoSkype) and bidirectional instant messaging. Also contact lists.” (MINIATURE HERO)

• “Find private photographs of targets on Facebook” (SPRING BISHOP)

• “A tool that will permanently disable a target’s account on their computer” (ANGRY PIRATE)

• “Ability to artificially increase traffic to a website” (GATEWAY) and “ability to inflate page views on websites” (SLIPSTREAM)

• “Amplification of a given message, normally video, on popular multimedia websites (Youtube)” (GESTATOR)

• “Targeted Denial Of Service against Web Servers” (PREDATORS FACE) and “Distributed denial of service using P2P. Built by ICTR, deployed by JTRIG” (ROLLING THUNDER)

• “A suite of tools for monitoring target use of the UK auction site eBay (www.ebay.co.uk)” (ELATE)

• “Ability to spoof any email address and send email under that identity” (CHANGELING)

• “For connecting two target phone together in a call” (IMPERIAL BARGE)

While some of the tactics are described as “in development,” JTRIG touts “most” of them as “fully operational, tested and reliable.” It adds: “We only advertise tools here that are either ready to fire or very close to being ready.”

And JTRIG urges its GCHQ colleagues to think big when it comes to internet deception: “Don’t treat this like a catalogue. If you don’t see it here, it doesn’t mean we can’t build it.”

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Executive Order 12333 on 07/21/2014 12:33:12 MDT Print View

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/meet-executive-order-12333-the-reagan-rule-that-lets-the-nsa-spy-on-americans/2014/07/18/93d2ac22-0b93-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Snowden and Ellsberg on 07/21/2014 12:36:32 MDT Print View

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/hopex-edward-snowden-daniel-ellsberg/

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
"Bush and Obama spurred Edward Snowden to spill U.S. Secrets" on 08/22/2014 07:52:40 MDT Print View

http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/the-misdeeds-that-prompted-edward-snowden-to-spill-us-secrets/378963/

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: "Bush and Obama spurred Edward Snowden to spill U.S. Secrets" on 08/22/2014 09:00:40 MDT Print View

You've posted some interesting articles Kat, thank you. I struggle with my opinion of Snowden's actions - patriot one day, traitor the next. I dislike the way he went about things & who he leaked secrets too, but I don't know what other choice he had. (other than to stay quiet of course). Either way, hopefully some good will come out of it.

Ryan

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: "Bush and Obama spurred Edward Snowden to spill U.S. Secrets" on 08/22/2014 09:14:41 MDT Print View

You don't like who he leaked secrets to?

He leaked secrets to three journalists who have been carefully going through it all and trying to make sure they do not disclose what they deem dangerous to the US. Some of what they have disclosed may have hurt US interests, but they are holding back much more than they are publishing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
You don't "have nothing to hide" on 09/28/2014 17:45:35 MDT Print View

A well written article particularly meaningful to those of us that don't necessarily tow the "thinking line".


http://www.salon.com/2014/09/28/you_dont_have_nothing_to_hide_how_privacy_breaches_are_quietly_controlling_you/

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
FBI director James Comely wants a government mandated back door to your IPhone and Google account. on 10/17/2014 19:38:59 MDT Print View

Relevant to this thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/17/government-internet-backdoor-surveillance-fbi

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
"Vote all you want..." on 10/21/2014 19:08:52 MDT Print View

"
GLENNON: The ultimate problem is the pervasive political ignorance on the part of the American people. And indifference to the threat that is emerging from these concealed institutions. That is where the energy for reform has to come from: the American people. Not from government. Government is very much the problem here. The people have to take the bull by the horns. And that’s a very difficult thing to do, because the ignorance is in many ways rational. There is very little profit to be had in learning about, and being active about, problems that you can’t affect, policies that you can’t change.
"





http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/10/18/vote-all-you-want-the-secret-government-won-change/jVSkXrENQlu8vNcBfMn9sL/story.html?event=event25

Edited by Kat_P on 10/21/2014 19:10:24 MDT.