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eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/10/2013 18:51:29 MDT Print View

some folks have here have had issues with marmot warranties, especially with their rain jackets and delamination ... at least one BPL member doesnt even waste his time contacting them with warranty issues

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=75834

i dont have much marmot gear, my main item being a 4 year pack that doesnt see much use ... i have many better climbing packs

when i dropped the pack off to marmot a few weeks ago, the pack was in quite good condition




as you can see of the interior the pack is delaminating from the inside



they responsded ...

Hi Eric,

We looked at your BackPack, looks like it's worn out. Would you be interested in our RPR deal, which offers 50% off for a new back pack.
You can choose any you like on our website for half price.
Your Alpha 30 shows normal wear so it's not something we can repair/replace.

Please advise,
Thank you


now i know a thing or two about worn out packs, with the minimal use this pack sees, i wouldnt call it worn out at all

personally i really dont care at all if marmot covers it or not, i have several other packs i use ... i barely even use the marmot for city activities, never mind outdoors

so the bottom line?

marmot's "lifetime" warranty is basically worthless IME for even gear that isnt used that much ... delamination of the pack coating is not covered in my case ...

keep that in mind the next time you look at a marmot product

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/10/2013 18:52:04 MDT.

G H
(NotLight) - F

Locale: Midwest
Warranty on 09/10/2013 20:11:18 MDT Print View

For reference: TNF replaced my 10 year old tent fly for free, no questions asked. Big Agnes repaired my tent that I told them I bought used for free, no questions asked.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/10/2013 20:28:13 MDT Print View

I have a Marmot Essence jacket about 3-4 years old that sees minimal use (12 days a year I wear it). It started delaminating last week. Looks like I'm SOL.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
+1 Big Agnes on 09/10/2013 20:30:18 MDT Print View

Big Agnes has great customer service. Replaced my sleeping pad I bought used for free no questions asked.

Sucks to hear about your experience.

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
?? on 09/11/2013 00:42:00 MDT Print View

Im not not sure why you keep quoting "lifetime" warranty??

I see nothing on their site that says lifetime warranty...



"We warrant every product we make to be free of manufacturer defects. Should you have a warranty issue, return the item to us. We will repair it if possible or replace all valid warranty items. Normal wear and tear, modifications, alterations, negligence, damage and use for a purpose other than for which it was designed, are not covered by the Marmot Warranty."

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: ?? on 09/11/2013 01:20:56 MDT Print View

m not not sure why you keep quoting "lifetime" warranty??

I see nothing on their site that says lifetime warranty...


at the time i bought the item marmot had a "lifetime guarantee/warranty" on many of their products ... its quoted on various places on the internet still from old threads ... for example

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/178752-Marmot-or-Patagonia-Which-Jacket-is-better

and you can still see it on their product registration page here ...



https://marmot.com/registration/info?country=AI&submit=Continue


somehow im not surprised if thats changed

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/11/2013 03:11:57 MDT.

d k
(dkramalc) - MLife
Re: Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 06:16:33 MDT Print View

That really stinks. Years ago my Marmot rain jacket delaminated, and when I brought it into the Berkeley store, they just told me to pick out a new one and take it home, no questions asked. Have you tried calling and complaining?

J R
(JRinGeorgia) - F
use the back door on 09/11/2013 06:56:51 MDT Print View

A little online sleuthing will get you a long way.

Marmot is owned by Jarden Corporation, a nearly $7 billion conglomerate that has over 100 well-known brands (including Coleman, ExOfficio, Rawlings, K2, Sunbeam, Crock Pot, Mr. Coffee, First Alert, the list goes on and on).

Headquarters is in Rye, NY, tel 914-967-9400. Gregory S. Shearson is the CEO/President of the Outdoor Solutions Unit. Call and ask for his office. Don't expect to speak with him, you will get to his receptionist. Explain your situation to him/her, using the word "defective" to describe the material delaminating and your expectation under the warranty. Most companies have an "executive escalation" department, basically a separate customer service team that works directly under the executive offices.

I bet through that channel you'll get it taken care of. Though I agree you shouldn't have to.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Cry on my shoulder on 09/11/2013 07:25:06 MDT Print View

Customer Service

Brett Peugh
(bpeugh) - F - M

Locale: Midwest
yeah on 09/11/2013 08:43:05 MDT Print View

Marmot used to have a really good warranty dept. but that has been at least 4 years.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Cry on my shoulder on 09/11/2013 08:43:23 MDT Print View

Thanks for that helpful post, Zorg.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 08:47:35 MDT Print View

I had the inside of a pack do that but it was because of something I had in the pack rubbing against the PU coating. I suspect that is what happened here given you probably had cams in there, etc. I would agree that this is simple wear and tear and not a manufacturing defect.

Maybe you are spoiled by the return policies of REI and MEC the way they used to be?

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Delamination on 09/11/2013 09:19:19 MDT Print View

That assumption doesn't make sense to me, Dave. In the posted photo, the delamination is creeping across the entire surface of that panel, right up to the edges of the seams. And the pattern of peeling looks exactly like the delamination I've seen on many other old PU coated articles like tent flys, jackets, and drybags used for soft stuff like sleeping bags. Some polyurethanes (polyethers) are more resistant to this kind of degradation (hydrolysis) than others (polyesters), but all PU coatings are susceptible. The fact that people consistently have this problem with Marmot gear suggests that it is at least partly attributable to their choice of PU material or their manufacturing methods.

I don't have any opinion about Eric's options in dealing with Marmot, and he might or might not have had abrasive things in that pack. We don't know. But it looks exactly like typical PU delamination that can occur without any abrasion. Given the information we have right now, your assertion that the damage was probably due to something Eric did doesn't make sense, and frankly it sounds like the kind of imaginative excuse often invented by warranty departments to avoid being accountable.

If you have some discomfort in general with placing any blame on Marmot, and you're looking for a fault in Eric's claim, I can see several arguments that are better than the abrasion excuse. For example, it could be argued that, since degradation and delamination over time is such a well-known property of PU coatings, people should expect it when they buy PU coated articles. In other words, like food that will eventually spoil, PU coatings should be assumed to have limited lifetimes. It is forseeable, inherent to this class of product, and not a defect.

Edited by ckrusor on 09/11/2013 09:32:56 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Delamination on 09/11/2013 09:24:42 MDT Print View

Perhaps.

However, is the delamination inside the pack affecting its performance?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 09:59:37 MDT Print View

I had this problem with Eagle Creek. I sent in a convertible suitcase with a sticky lining. They tried to tell me it was beyond the "lifetime" of the product. I asked them to reconsider or return the item so I could hand it over to my state Attorney General for litigation. I got a new suitcase.

I think a lot of manufacturers are getting stuck with warranty claims on deteriorating coatings and trying to wiggle off the hook.

Invoke the consumer protection laws and see what happens. I encouraged a friend to do that with a faulty VW diesel car and she's driving a new car today. Stand your ground.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 11:12:53 MDT Print View

I had the inside of a pack do that but it was because of something I had in the pack rubbing against the PU coating. I suspect that is what happened here given you probably had cams in there, etc. I would agree that this is simple wear and tear and not a manufacturing defect.

Maybe you are spoiled by the return policies of REI and MEC the way they used to be?


i dont use this packs to carry my cams and ropes ... its not big enough .... nor is there any frame

i basically use it 2 weeks a year for short day walks ... and 4 weeks for carrying clothes to and from the gym

no doubt sitting around the closet for 10-11 months of the year constitutes worn out for you

i basically told them that im going to stop by their local office here and pick up my pack ... im not going to argue with em, i have other packs from other manufacturers that have seen much more daily use

ill give the pack to a friend/family member who needs one, with the cavaet about the delamination

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/11/2013 11:17:41 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 11:43:41 MDT Print View

"no doubt sitting around the closet for 10-11 months of the year constitutes worn out for you"

Well no.

But frankly, we really have no idea what the history of the pack is. We don't know if you got it wet and decided not to dry the inside. Maybe your gym water bottle leaked. Maybe not. This isn't an initial quality issue.

What did you pay for the pack in the first place? Maybe the Return Gods are frowning on you for all of the gear you have returned to MEC (j/k)?

You didn't answer my question: Does the minor delamination affect the performance of the pack? Is the 50% off Pro Deal for you not sufficient? How many forums are you going to post this at?

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 12:02:46 MDT Print View

i paid around 80-90$ including tax and everything ... as i said the money is irrelevant, i told marmot ill come by and pick up my pack

the problem with delamination is that the the coating will keep on peeling and peeling off ... everything inside will get snowy white and yellow in the process

now no pack short of a dry style bag is waterproof, but the manufactures (even cottage ones) use coated fabrics for a reason, to provide some water resistance ... as a pack delaminates the pack will simply soak up more and more water

now mind you one can still use the pack, just like one can use those chryslers that had premature paint problems that kept on coming apart ... paint jobs after all have a minimal "effect' on the performance of the car, but then peeling paint probably shouldnt be covered either at BPL =P

i could probably MAKE money by picking 50% off some very expensive item ... and then turning around and selling it off ... im honestly not going to bother

as to the forums? ... this is my experience with marmot ... theres been ALOT of marmot delamination stories going around for rain jackets, some with minimal use as someone posted above ... and it seems a cr@pshoot on whether theyll cover it at all

some BPLers will no doubt think its "scamming" the system and that gear sitting in the closet should fall apart ...

for others ... they can read this and decide for themselves if they want to deal with marmot ... when there are other companies out there who you dont need to argue with

or perhaps some people prefer that everyone just "shut up" about their experiences buy the latest greatest shiniest gear ...

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/11/2013 12:05:10 MDT.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me" on 09/11/2013 13:04:40 MDT Print View

If you truly feel this is a manufacturer defect, then you should pursue it. Tell Marmot roughly how many times you've used the pack and with what type of gear stowed inside and tell them you don't feel that's a reasonable life expectancy.

However if you do have a lot of time on the bag or you were packing abrasives then I would have to side with Marmot because I don't think any warranty was ever intended to cover normal wear and tear and it's the abuse of the policies by people who either believed it meant that or simply saw it as a loophole that have caused manufacturers and distributors to tighten up their policies.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: marmot "lifetime" warranty worthless for me on 09/11/2013 13:16:49 MDT Print View

Eric, just shut up and buy me a new rain jacket. ;)

Correction: a SHINY new rain jacket. Dang thing better sparkle.

Edited by T.L. on 09/11/2013 13:17:48 MDT.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Marmot on 09/11/2013 13:31:59 MDT Print View

I think it should be replaced. Marmot needs to fix their PU coatings.

Edited by dandydan on 09/11/2013 13:32:39 MDT.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
agree about pu coating on 09/11/2013 14:25:49 MDT Print View

I agree with the PU coating. They should spend time and resources fixing it rather than chalking it up to normal wear and tear.

A few years ago I went through two Marmot rain jackets with PU coatings (first a precip then a better $200 one, can't remember the name) in less than 6 months, wearing it only occasionally during morning bus commute if it was raining (so maybe 3 times a week, no heavy pack or sustained walking) and both jackets began delaminating all over the place and essentially ballooning between the fabric and the laminate (like a bubble in pizza dough when baking).

Luckily, this was when REI still had their unlimited customer satisfaction guarantee so it was easy to get a different jacket.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 09/11/2013 14:26:46 MDT.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla) - M

Locale: Wild Wild West
PU coatings on 09/11/2013 14:48:05 MDT Print View

One would think with all the complaints of the PU de lamination that the company would get a good engineer on it and improve the process. Obviously the coating degrades and separates after a short time. Not paying attention to details and ignoring customer feedback has been the death of formerly loved and liked brands. Makes me wonder where else the Marmont brand owners (as stated above) have skimped on details like longevity of their products for which we pay good hard earned money for. :-P I for one appreciate reviews and reports on products because durability and value for our dollars is important, especially in hard economic times for those of us who must scrimp and save for our equiptment.

Mina Loomis
(elmvine) - MLife

Locale: Central Texas
REI current return policy on 09/11/2013 15:36:22 MDT Print View

>>Luckily, this was when REI still had their unlimited customer satisfaction guarantee so it was easy to get a different jacket.

Current new REI return policy would still cover your manufacturing defect situation.

"100% Satisfaction Guaranteed
"We stand behind everything we sell. If you are not satisfied with your REI purchase, you can return it for a replacement or refund. Items must be returned within a year of purchase, except items purchased from REI-OUTLET which must be returned within 30 days of purchase.

"REI’s guarantee doesn’t cover ordinary wear and tear or damage caused by improper use or accidents.

"If your item has a manufacturing defect in its materials or workmanship, you can return it at any time. See our limited warranty."

and

"Limited Warranty
"If your item has a manufacturing defect in its materials or workmanship, you can return it at any time. Many of our items also have a separate warranty from the manufacturer, and you can also return any of those items that don’t meet the manufacturer's warranty.

"This limited warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may have other rights which vary from state to state."

Mina
Part time sales associate (ie I am just a part time salesclerk and not speaking on behalf of REI; I just copied and pasted the language from REI.com.)
REI Austin Downtown

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
coating delam on 09/11/2013 23:50:43 MDT Print View

Being a MYOG nut, there are rolls of material that sit around the damp basement for eons.

Have often wondered why some PU coatings delaminate after a few years, and others not.
Two delams that come to mind are a never used TNF bivy with a built-in pad, and a Eureka tent that was heavily used for over five years at least.
On the other hand, I have some old TNF 1.6 oz PU coated nylon that was used on their lightest pup tent decades ago, and there is still no delamination (TNF actually used to sell fabric).

There is also the situation where the PU gets gooey - no idea what's going on there either.

Best guess is that it's the quality of the coating and its application, which could vary with the same brand, depending on what supplier is doing the job. But poor storage if a factor pointed out in OP Benjamin's recent thread: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=81746

+1 on the use of the term, "defective." If coating won't stay on in ordinary use, with dry storage at reasonable temps, it is probably that, making a good case for a warranty issue. But as was pointed out, we don't know how the pack was treated. Only the OP knows that. "Let your conscience by your guide," OP. -Jiminy Cricket.

Edited by scfhome on 09/11/2013 23:57:00 MDT.

Zard Oz
(tyemax2) - M

Locale: SF Bay Area
@mina on 09/12/2013 10:46:58 MDT Print View

The REI return policy is only good for a year. The change occurred June of 2013. Older gear is grandfathered into the old return policy.

In regards to the pack. Doesn't look like heavy use to me. I have an Osprey Aether 45 that has the same problem after 10 years of hard use. So, the pack shouldn't have that issue so soon. Note: I'm not returning my Aether. Think I got my money's worth there.

A lot of outdoor gear seems to be marketed to the casual user these days. That translates into lower price points and lower quality for higher profit margins. There is also pressure to lower weight which makes gear less durable as well.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
whine whine whine ;) on 09/12/2013 11:13:55 MDT Print View

well folks ... heres bit more serial whining

heres an osprey mutant is that is a bit less old, but i use MUCH more ... theres holes from picks, marmots and hauling

although osprey has the "all mighty" guarantee ... i never sent it in, i just taped on seam gripped the holes and kept on using them

why? ... i actually used this pack a decent amount ... its hasnt been sitting in the closet

IMO a pack that generally sits in the closet and gets maybe 2 weeks of trail use a year shouldnt delaminate under 4 years ... and if it did then a company that advertises a "lifetime" warranty at the time should take care of it

i paid ~90$ or so for the marmot taxes in, honestly its not even worth the hassle of dealing with them and having to drive back and forth to their office to argue ... im dropping by next week and ill either ask for the pack back ... or if they offer a credit, ill ask them to make a donation to the local charity for me instead ... theres really nothing in the marmot line i want or need short of a sleeping bag, and im not spending $$$$ with them when theres companies with REAL "lifetime" warranties out there

its the price i pay for learning that "lifetime warranties" with some companies out there dont mean a thing

my osprey mutant that gets used







:)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/12/2013 11:14:29 MDT.

Zard Oz
(tyemax2) - M

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re @mina on 09/12/2013 11:15:25 MDT Print View

Whoops, you had the current one year return policy listed and I missed that.

My bad :-)

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: whine whine whine ;) on 09/12/2013 12:11:55 MDT Print View

"not even worth the hassle of dealing with them and having to drive back and forth to their office to argue"

Do you mean their headquarters?

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: whine whine whine ;) on 09/12/2013 12:18:05 MDT Print View

in canada their warranty is outsourced to a marketing company in the greater vancouver area ...


;)

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Re: Re: whine whine whine ;) on 09/12/2013 12:34:27 MDT Print View

Ah, I see.
Their headquarters are located right here in Santa Rosa.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Osprey warranty on 09/12/2013 12:59:51 MDT Print View

Now, the Osprey warranty is a good thing to compare to Marmot. I sent in an Exos 46 that had a slack trampoline back panel and they sent a brand new one, no questions asked.

David W.
(Davidpcvsamoa) - MLife

Locale: East Bay, CA
Ospey Excellence on 09/12/2013 13:31:40 MDT Print View

+1 to Dale's experience with Osprey's warranty and the Exos. I recently sent in a pack for some minor wear to the trampoline and broken buckles and received a brand new pack within a week. Osprey exceeded my expectations.

Mina Loomis
(elmvine) - MLife

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re @mina on 09/12/2013 16:19:56 MDT Print View

>>Whoops, you had the current one year return policy listed and I missed that.

No problem.

A couple of more comments.

As stated in what I copied above, there is not a time limit on items returned for defects in materials or workmanship. So if a product has premature PU delimitation, that would seem to suffice, without regards to the time limit. In difficult cases, normally the manager on duty makes that call, in consultation with the customer.

Also, the new policy only applies from the date of the announcement of the policy, that is, June 2013. According to the training we received, purchases prior to that time fall under the policy in effect at the time of purchase.

Mina

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
mmmmm ... granola on 09/17/2013 13:43:36 MDT Print View

so i went to their office and had a nice chat

i usually clean my packs when they are dirty, or a few times a season ... usually a quick wipe and hang dry ... and a full wash in the tub now and then

apparently with marmot packs youre supposed to always clean it every time ... even if you put gym clothes in there ... or else it will delaminate

weird that this doesnt happen with all my other packs which see much more use and dirt/sweat

regardless marmot stepped up and offered me an 80$ credit for the pack ... so kudos to them for doing this after a nice chat

since i dont need ay marmot gear, ill be giving away the credit to a friend ... the only question is which of the cutest chicks i know "deserves" it the most

thanks to all the BPLers to listening to my whinny "scamming" ... i think im turning into an obama voting, entitled socialist, yuppie, hippie, granola munching, democrat on marmot gear stamps

;)

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: mmmmm ... granola on 09/17/2013 13:54:11 MDT Print View

"i think im turning into an obama voting, entitled socialist, yuppie, hippie, granola munching, democrat on marmot gear stamps"

You've now just offended the average Vancouverite.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: mmmmm ... gear stamps on 09/17/2013 14:07:46 MDT Print View

"Obama-voting, entitled socialist, yuppie, hippie, granola-munching democrat on marmot gear stamps"

You just described my dream date....