Forum Index » Chaff » Continuation of "Religion in the Canyon/Foxhole" thread


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David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Flash floods and Circumcision on 09/13/2013 09:07:09 MDT Print View

The uncircumcised were the ones that drowned in the hydrological event in the Red Sea.

Yuri R
(Yazon) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 11:00:37 MDT Print View

I also disagree that getting technical on my math question..."can only get you one answer". I gave you two answers, both correct. One being five and one being three.

As i said - getting technical will produce one result. You chose to do correct operation in first case and unnecessary operation in the second. Of course we can measure and use any reference system we want, but the system may not be fit to provide the right answer, even if it seems mathematically correct. So lets not measure this distance "в попугаях".

(x1+x2)/2 will give you the exact answer for a midpoint of a line (we are speaking 2 dimensions here). Instead of using arbitrary points as a starting point of calculation (which still works if you use the right system), you can take the absolute length, which in our case is 9-1=8.

I can only assume that you have performed the step above (9-1)=8 and then used log8 with base 2. Yes, you will get 3, but at this stage you are not solving for the actual distance, you are asking how many times 2 needs to be multiplied by itself to get 8. Just as well you could take a square root of 8, but it also won't produce the right answer because you are not performing the right operation to find the answer.

Yuri R
(Yazon) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 11:08:51 MDT Print View

"Some may not believe as you do, not because they aren't aware of or interested in science, but simply because __their own__ repeated experiences tell them that scientific understanding is really FAR from being complete. "

Well, this is a problem, isn't it? I get hallucinations if i drive for 12 hours (takes a toll on me), or if my body temperature is really high. But because my experience is unique and unrepeatable, I can't claim that something i've experienced is universally true. That's the difference between belief and fact.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 11:54:40 MDT Print View

Yuri.
You are assuming it is distance that we are talking about. If we go along with your assumption, then you are correct.
Just because you perceive this as a linear problem, does not make it so.

Edited by Kat_P on 09/13/2013 11:56:53 MDT.

Yuri R
(Yazon) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 15:12:16 MDT Print View

Initially I wanted you to describe how "finding a midpoint between 1-9" is not a linear problem given the information provided. It is common practice to indicate the system, reference point or scale to be used when asking such questions (it could have been time, distance in feet that needed to be expressed in inches, etc).

Then i recalled your statement:
"I also disagree that getting technical on my math question..."can only get you one answer". I gave you two answers, both correct. One being five and one being three."

You just got technical and it resulted into a single answer depending on the specified parameters of the problem. Which resulted in a contradiction with your original statement.

But then I realized that I'm discussing something that really has nothing to do with the reason why I chimed in here. So i'm out of this topic.

Good luck all.

Edited by Yazon on 09/13/2013 15:14:42 MDT.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 15:35:39 MDT Print View

" But because my experience is unique and unrepeatable,"

Doesn't sound unrepeatable. Sounds like you can have the same thing happen if you go drive another 12 hours. Fever can produce hallucinations.

If millions of people have experienced something for 1000's of years, that sounds pretty repeatable. If you refuse to try something, an experiment of faith for example, then you can not say it is not valid.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 16:31:19 MDT Print View

"It would be fascinating to witness the birth of a new religion in the face of contemporary scientific understanding."

I suspect you will have to settle for the rebirth of that "Old Time Religion"
as the curtain of the new Dark Age descends on the Age of Science. Those with an aptitude for religion are not known for their creativity.

"I'd love to know which gaps in today's science will be commonly tested and solved in basic high school classes 100 years from now."

If science is even being taught 100 years from now.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear) - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 16:33:20 MDT Print View

"Well, this is a problem, isn't it? I get hallucinations if i drive for 12 hours (takes a toll on me), or if my body temperature is really high. But because my experience is unique and unrepeatable, I can't claim that something i've experienced is universally true. That's the difference between belief and fact."

Yuri, your two examples involve non-normal, body imbalances. The experiences i'm referring to, are not due to unusual and extreme body states but happen during "normal" body conditions and wouldn't be classified as hallucinations by any psychologist worth their weight in education. For starters, check out Dr. John E. Mack, who was the head of the Harvard psych department.

And still taking the UFO and E.T. phenomena for example. When so many people in our times and throughout the ages have had experiences during normal body states with one, the other, or both of these, when does a skeptic actually open their mind a bit and consider, "hey, this could be possible true?"

Here's the thing about this, a number of scientists have stated that it's probable that there is other life in the Universe. Many have stated that it's also probably even probable that there is intelligent life in the universe. The odds in such a large universe are in favor of same.

However the mistake that a lot of scientists make in their human arrogance is thinking that we have physics all figured out in a big picture sense, and that more intelligent than us beings couldn't possibly have figured out how to travel extremely far distances in short times to be able to visit Earth.

That's a lot of assumption and largely based on mechanistic, Newtonian physics and to a lesser extent relativity-Einsteinium (yet, Einstein's theories allow for wormholes which can bypass the speed of light constant). What about the common postulation of different, but connected dimensions that go beyond our own> What about quantum physics which indicates that a particle can even be at two different places simultaneously (which btw, strongly implies a fundamental unity or oneness to the very core of reality)? You could argue, well that only applies to super small particles and we've seen no evidence of this happening at larger and denser levels of reality.

Well it's true we don't see it in nature, but what about the thousands of unexplained UFO sightings across the world. What about the numerous military and high political figures who have come forward and stated plainly, we were involved with secret knowledge of E.T.-human interactions.

At some point, "skepticism" (again, especially mostly with the majority of men) just becomes a synonym for close mindedness and stubbornness, and unwillingness to consider viewpoints different than ones own.

I get it, some folks just don't want to have belief system crashes. They are quite unpleasant. I try not to convince people of specific things (though i'm doing it a little with the E.T. thing) because i realize that ultimately, people need their own experience to really have their belief systems shaken up and rebooted. I have been quite skeptical towards these things, like E.T.'s, nonphysical reality, etc, but for whatever reason i've had numerous experiences which have contradicted my previous beliefs and skepticism, and after awhile (especially after the fear dies down) one's curiosity takes over. And a true scientist type, is nothing, if not curious...

Along those lines, i highly recommend one Robert A. Monroe and his books. He was also one sort of forced to change his beliefs by direct experience and ones he couldn't control and didn't consciously ask for. As mentioned earlier, the physicist Tom Campbell and he, crossed paths for awhile and to very interesting and mutually beneficial results.

Tom and his engineer friend, helped Monroe to design the audio technology called "Hemisync" which is quite interesting stuff theoretically and in an experiential way ; ) My wife and i spent our honeymoon at the Gateway Voyage program at The Monroe Institute in Faber VA. To say it blew our minds is an understatement.

What i really like about Monroe was that he wasn't in the business of pushing beliefs or dogma of any kind, but rather providing good tools to people to go out and have their own verifiable nonphysical experiences. The only belief he asked for others to consider was that we are potentially more than our physical bodies and he highly stressed physical world verification to prove this to self. For example, in the early days, the physicist Tom Campbell and his engineer friend Dennis, would be separated physically, told to go out in nonphysical consciousness states and meet up (they sort of meditated). It got to the point in their consciousness travels together that they started repeatedly corroborating specific data and information.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: on 09/13/2013 16:36:16 MDT Print View

Possibly relevant. No comment from me.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: on 09/13/2013 20:14:35 MDT Print View

""True atheism (there is no god) is a religion. Emphasis on number four:
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith "

That's incorrect. You take the seeming "passion" of atheists and calling it faith or system of beliefs. But it is neither."

Well thanks for clearing that up. Not really.

faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Saying in absolute terms that your belief is correct and that there is no possibility of another answer is simply being religious and borderline arrogant. I realize that is a tough pill for devout atheists to swallow.

As Katharina mentioned earlier, agnostic simply means "without knowledge" in that trying to determine the existence or non existence of God is unknowable. If you have all the mysteries of the universe figured out then more power to you, the monotheists, and polytheists. I don't and doubt I ever will... or won't I?

I'm starting a new cult based on a theory of mine. Here's how the world was created. Get ready......

Once upon a time on the planet Zorbot, the leading scientists of the day searched the universe for habitable planets. They looked for planets which weren't too close or too far from a star. Planets which contained oxygen, water, and other building blocks of life. Now while these Zorbotian scientists were very intelligent, creative, and snappy dressers, they were unable to personally explore the universe because their budget was decimated to fund new strip malls.

So instead of personally traveling throughout the universe planting the seeds of life like alien Johnny Appleseeds, they instead created several gigantic frozen balls of DNA goop (technical term). They knew that if they could just launch these DNA goop balls and aim them at these habitable planets, they would plant the seeds of life. The DNA soup would adapt to the nuances of the planets and create life.

Now here comes the important part. Gazillions and gazillions of years later, Zorbotian scientists discovered that their experiment on planet Earth was not in compliance with Leave No Trace principles. To correct this problem, they launched a dooms day missile which is en route to Earth to sterilize our planet as we sit here and read this.

Fortunately I know when the missile is going to hit and have the one true solution on how to evacuate the planet before it does. Please send me a check for $1000. In return, I'll send you a new pair of Nikes and give you instructions of how to catch a ride on the next comet.

In other words, 4*4 = foreskin.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 09/13/2013 20:17:43 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: on 09/13/2013 20:35:57 MDT Print View

"Saying in absolute terms that your belief is correct and that there is no possibility of another answer is simply being religious and borderline arrogant. I realize that is a tough pill for devout atheists to swallow."

Not to mention devout monotheists of all stripes.

Random snatches of scripture like "I am The Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other god before me", "La ilaha illa allah", and "I am the way and the truth and the light" come to mind. ;0)

Edited by ouzel on 09/13/2013 20:40:05 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: on 09/13/2013 20:45:15 MDT Print View

"Not to mention devout monotheists of all stripes."

Agreed. We should all seek the truth.

Again, send me a check for $1000....

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 22:02:18 MDT Print View

Ian:

Sorry, but your cult's creation story sounds a little like a Kurt Vonnegut novel blended with Ridley Scott's Prometheus.

But don't give up. There are a lot of people out there desperate to rally behind something. Make sure your followers have a strong belief they are being persecuted by someone (preferably the government or a global secret society), include a good government cover-up conspiracy, and add a main character that's a prodigal son type with father issues and your cult will be a hit. Hire a good advertising/PR firm and some really good graphic designers for pamphlets and you'll have your $1000 in no time.

Kickstarter?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/13/2013 23:52:50 MDT Print View

"Sorry, but your cult's creation story sounds a little like a Kurt Vonnegut novel blended with Ridley Scott's Prometheus."

Actually I'm ok with that.

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Gallup 1999 on 09/16/2013 12:53:05 MDT Print View

I heard the cry for more chaff, so I'll give you some interesting numbers for your enjoyment only...

From Richard Dawkins, the God delusion:

"A Gallup poll taken in 1999 asked Americans whether they would vote for an otherwise well-qualified person who was a woman (95 percent would), Jew (92 percent), black (92 percent), Mormon (79 percent), or Atheist (49 percent).

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Gallup 1999 on 09/16/2013 14:13:55 MDT Print View

Unfortunately the U.S. doesn't own the market when it comes to religious, ethic, and racial prejudices. I found those problems to be very overt when I lived in and traveled throughout Europe.

For example, my then girlfriend's grandmother was very prejudiced against Catholics and I was warned before I met her. She wouldn't even shake my hand until she knew that I wasn't a Catholic.

American GIs and Turks were infamous for getting into bar fights with each other in Germany. It was fairly commonplace to see signs on bars, "No Americans or Turks allowed." I couldn't care less at the time and just walked to the next bar but if a bar in the U.S. were to post "No Canadians or Mexicans allowed," that would make international news and you could bet a case would be filed in court.

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Gallup 1999 on 09/16/2013 15:28:20 MDT Print View

Yup, probably happens all over the world. I know one who wasn't allowed contact with her family for 10 years because she married one who wasn't part of her family's religion. Luckily, they all see each other now. Good to know things CAN get better.