Forum Index » Chaff » Continuation of "Religion in the Canyon/Foxhole" thread


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Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Continuation of "Religion in the Canyon/Foxhole" thread on 09/09/2013 08:47:58 MDT Print View

Continued from...

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=81706&skip_to_post=695942#695942

into Chaff.

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 09:03:13 MDT Print View

How can it be considered fanatic to be an atheist? I'm amazed. Hmm... Now, how about that tea cup circling around earth...that's for real!

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Continuation of "Religion in the Canyon/Foxhole" thread on 09/09/2013 09:06:20 MDT Print View

My take...

As a friend of mine has explained to me, your religion is like your genitals. Be very very proud of it but keep it to yourself.

I try to take his advice but off the cliff I go...

Regarding the video and from a theological perspective, I thought how he presented his list of demands to God was... interesting... but I didn't really care. His beliefs and his right to worship however he sees fit. With what they were facing, I'm sure I'd be speaking in tongues, screaming haikus, and releasing my bowels in general. Whatever gets this guy through the day really isn't my business but otherwise an excellent video.

Regarding atheists in the foxhole… Yes it's a figure of speech. But yes, there are many people from a variety of faiths in foxholes, including atheists.

While I'm not an atheist, I do see why someone in 2013 would take exception to this saying. Here's the scenario many atheists veterans face:

1) Serve country and defend Constitution
2) Put your arse in harm’s way to defend freedom for ALL people
3) See that many people from the religious right are trying to impose a Christian version of morality on their fellow citizens.
4) Atheist veteran is told, repeatedly, by those who haven't spent one second in the military, that all of our freedoms are a result from a Christian God

Edited by IDBLOOM on 09/09/2013 09:15:29 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 09:21:50 MDT Print View

"How can it be considered fanatic to be an atheist?"

True atheism (there is no god) is a religion. Emphasis on number four:

re•li•gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\
CloseStyle: MLA APA ChicagoDefinition of RELIGION
1a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Realizing how limited our understanding of the universe is, stating in absolute terms that there is no supreme creator by any name is a religious belief. Not all Christians are fanatics just like not all atheists are fanatics. One of my Facebook friends is an Army veteran. The reason I know that he's an atheist is that on a weekly basis, he posts an atheist meme. His religious activity is much more aggressive than most Christians I know. He's an outstanding human being so I just ignore his religious rants.

The only belief which isn't religion, in my opinion, is agnosticism.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 09:30:38 MDT Print View

I don't like evangelicals - Christians, Aetheists, Muslims, whatever...

I don't want someone to attempt to convert me to their faith

I don't have the wisdom to know whether someone would be better off believing my faith

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Agree on 09/09/2013 09:32:06 MDT Print View

I do actually agree Ian. If there will ever be proof that some divinity does exist, I'll of course believe it. I'll moderate myself, and I'll put myself in the category of agnosticism, where the probability of God is close to zero.

Edited by prse on 09/09/2013 09:32:47 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 09/09/2013 10:04:35 MDT Print View

From my own little soapbox...

To me, anyone who cannot tolerate another person/ group beliefs, if these are just beliefs and not actions that hurt others ....is part of the problem.
By tolerate I mean either let it be or try and have a reasonable discussion about it without put downs, name calling and threats.

That means:
Let someone believe in any God they care to, or none at all.
Same for homosexuality, abortion, guns, anarchy, political affiliation....anything.
If someone's beliefs transfer to actually hurting others....then to me you are obligated to act in the hurt party's defense.

I can understand the drive and the eagerness with which we try and convince others of their wrongs, because I do that too. I cannot understand how once removed from the heat of it, one does not see the harm and the hypocrisy of attacking and belittling someone else's beliefs, just because different than ours. I cannot.


Edited for spelling. Actually auto correct errors..

Edited by Kat_P on 09/09/2013 10:08:13 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Agree on 09/09/2013 10:52:56 MDT Print View

I have no idea so I guess that makes me a devout agnostic. It’s unbelievably fortunate that all of the requisite conditions were present to create and support life on Earth.

To the question of if a divine being is responsible for life in the universe or if what we see around us is the 12th grade science project for a conehead from the planet Zorbot, I’m massively unqualified to say. That’s enough pondering the meaning of margarine for me.

d k
(dkramalc) - MLife
Re: Re: Agree on 09/09/2013 10:57:41 MDT Print View

Heresy, Ian! Everyone KNOWS that coneheads come from the planet Remulak.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Continuation of "Religion in the Canyon/Foxhole" thread on 09/09/2013 11:40:36 MDT Print View

I don't collect stamps. Its the same thing as having a hobby of stamp collecting, but in a different way, with different priorities, and with different beliefs.

I don't have a religion. Some people would say this is a religion. Obviously not collecting stamps is a perfect hobby for someone who has a religion of not having a religion.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Continuation of "Religion in the Canyon/Foxhole" thread on 09/09/2013 11:48:29 MDT Print View

"I don't collect stamps... yada yada yada ...for someone who has a religion of not having a religion."

Word.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
tolerance, acceptance and 42 on 09/09/2013 12:35:59 MDT Print View

I find 'tolerance' to be ego-centric. It presumes that 'what I believe is correct but I'll allow your to believe what you want'. Acceptance, on the other hand, is about accepting the fact that other have beliefs that are just as important/true to them as yours are to you and, it doesn't matter.

Besides, don't ya'll know that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42?

So long and thanks for all the fish!

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: tolerance, acceptance and 42 on 09/09/2013 12:41:29 MDT Print View

Thanks for "accepting" my using the word "tolerance'" instead of " acceptance".

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Re: tolerance, acceptance and 42 on 09/09/2013 12:46:53 MDT Print View

sorry Katharina :)

It's easy to take things personally when the topic is so close to our hearts. I honestly wasn't directing myself at you. It's the idea that I wanted to bring out.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: tolerance, acceptance and 42 on 09/09/2013 12:56:00 MDT Print View

No problem, other than my getting defensive pretty quickly here.

Yes, acceptance is better. For some people or for some touchy issues...,tolerance would be a good place to start. Acceptance- something to strive for.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: tolerance, acceptance and 42 on 09/09/2013 13:38:28 MDT Print View

(edit re-thought that first line and removed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYZ0OhwpGWU

Edited by IDBLOOM on 09/09/2013 13:53:37 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 14:00:58 MDT Print View

"While I'm not an atheist, I do see why someone in 2013 would take exception to this saying."

Sometimes, someone is just tired after a very long day, a less than wonderful day, is a tad irritable, and just got finished reading yet another story about yet another self-proclaimed 'christian' who speaks/acts/etc. in a way that is anything but what jesus taught, and therefore reacts to yet another 'we're all christians when times get tough' dumbass statement (see, I did it again) in a highly irritable way. Sometimes it's just that simple, nothing fanatical, nothing significant, just a bad-tempered wince expressed through a keyboard. We are all, after all, human, and exceptionally imperfect.

"Not all Christians are fanatics just like not all atheists are fanatics."

So true. A few of my good friends are christians, one is an atheist, one is a buddhist, a couple are agnostics. Only one is a fanatic, and I don't talk religion with him. The rest of us don't care one way or the other about what the rest of us believe. We ALL believe in treating people fairly, kindness, tolerance/acceptance (choose your flavor). Most of us believe that adding water to a good single malt is a sin.

My own take is that too much time is spent arguing/fighting/even worse about god and religion. It just doesn't matter (not to me most days, anyway, which is why most days I simply ignore it). And it often just gets in the way of treating people decently - because far too often such discussions seem to focus on what we disagree on (and then finding a reason to consciously 'exclude' people) instead of what we agree on.

In short, I don't give a hoot whether or not god exists, I don't really spend any time thinking about it. And I've never tried to persuade anyone else of god's existence or lack thereof.

Edited by idester on 09/09/2013 14:03:41 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 14:20:07 MDT Print View

"Most of us believe that adding water to a good single malt is a sin."

Whoa! Pump the brakes.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 14:27:08 MDT Print View

:( I'm a sinner.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Re: Re: Thanks Ian on 09/09/2013 14:32:23 MDT Print View

Genghis Khan had a good idea. The Mongolian empire was so vast and included so many belief systems that inter-faith councils/meetings/dialogues were limited to one rule: Those who personalized the discussion were beheaded.