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Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: middle layer on 09/02/2013 07:58:04 MDT Print View

Daniel, you're ½ right... as i'm always wearing a merino t-shirt as my first layer, it will never touch my torso, but maximally just the most of my arms.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
middle layer on 09/02/2013 07:58:42 MDT Print View

if yr wearing a windshirt UNDER your rain jacket ... you just sacrificed a good part of any "breathability" of your rain jacket

in high output activities youll sweat out the windshirt at that point ...

if yr going to wear something under your rain jacket for something more serious than walking around .... wear something thats highly breathable and wicking ... like a light fleece ... or just a base layer

the trick with not "sweating" out your rain jacket is to wear as little as possible under it when moving ... and use the zippers to regulate the temperature

remember that the MORE you wear under your rain jacket, the hotter youll be, which is why youll sweat ... and the more items that will get soaked in sweat, the more that needs to be dried out, and the more chilled youll get afterwards when you stop

the next time there a cold ~ 40F rain for hours, go out for a strenerous walk for hours around the city park with your packweight ... and youll find this out every quickly ... no cheating by stopping at the sbucks ;)

remember if yr sweating out everything in cooler temps ... unless yr a marathon runner, it means yr doing something wrong !!!

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Nope on 09/02/2013 08:05:18 MDT Print View

Eric, i promise you, it will not be more cool to wear a light fleece instead of my Arcterryx squamish under a shell...

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
To be sure.. on 09/02/2013 08:16:40 MDT Print View

I've never said that it's good to always wear a windshirt under a shell. My step down in garments used under a shell when on a trip, would just be my merino t-shirt.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Nope on 09/02/2013 08:21:19 MDT Print View

Eric, i promise you, it will not be more cool to wear a light fleece instead of my Arcterryx squamish under a shell...

it will more BREATHABLE to wear something like a light base layer or a light R1 vest, which are infinately more breathable than ANY windshirt ... i "promise" you that

its useless to go worry about the "brethability" of a rain jacket when yr adding on a windshirt underneath ...

if you want to be "cool" dont wear anything under yr rain jacket other than very thin long sleeve base layer

im not saying all these fancy fabric dont make a bit of difference ... but at the end its the SKILLs that matter

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/02/2013 08:24:12 MDT.

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Ultralight dream clothing, what would you buy on 09/02/2013 08:24:58 MDT Print View

You might like these
The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking
Breathability: an explanation of its importance, mechanisms, and limitations
A New Paradigm for Understanding Garment Warmth
Ultralight Backpackin' Tips: Clothing

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Nope on 09/02/2013 08:36:52 MDT Print View

Eric, who cares about breathability if your garment isolates and makes you hot? ;-)

Haha, but a fleece vest is cooler than a long sleeved fleece, so you're on your way now... ;-)

Btw, have you tried the squamish material? It's one of the more breathable windshirt materials out there.

In the end, one clothing system that works for one person on a backpacking trip doesn't necessarily work for another person :-)

No worries in disagreeing, other than it makes Daniel more confused...

Sorry Daniel!

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
The Skill card.. on 09/02/2013 08:39:29 MDT Print View

Hey, don't go pulling the skill card in an edit Eric... that's low ;-) haha

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Why add weight.. on 09/02/2013 08:48:07 MDT Print View

But why add a thin base layer to your pack weight if you don't need it? I'll either wear just my t-shirt underneath my shell or the next step up will be my Squamish that i'm already carrying - multipurpose.

If we were talking short day trips, and not extended hikes, well, then picking and choosing from a never ending gear closet would be another deal ;-).

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Nope on 09/02/2013 08:53:27 MDT Print View

Eric, who cares about breathability if your garment isolates and makes you hot? ;-)

Haha, but a fleece vest is cooler than a long sleeved fleece, so you're on your way now... ;-)

Btw, have you tried the squamish material? It's one of the more breathable windshirt materials out there.


i own and use a dead bird celeris windshit vest ... which is quite "breathable" as far as windshirts go

breathability DOES matter to a certain degree ... otherwise we would simply use silnylon rain jackets all the time

each time you add ANY layer the breathability gets reduced ... some like base layers and light fleeces are HIGHLY breathable so theres less impact ... others like softshells and windshirts are LESS so, and theres much more impact

using a windshirt under a rain jacket poses the following problems

- the windshirt is one of your LEAST breathable active clothing items, only the rain jacket is worse ... so you are layering your 2 least breathable clothing items to walk in the rain where theres high outside humidity

- by the time you decide to put on the rain jacket over your windhirt (i mean NO ONE here puts it on at the first few drops of rain really, they all brag about how their windshirt are water resistant) ... youll will have a significant amount of moisture already in the windshell ... that has to go SOMEWHERE ... and with the reduced breathability of your 2 least breathable layers, guess where its staying

- straight WET nylon is "clingy" ... throw your winsdshirt in the washer,dont dry it, put it straight on under your rainjacket and youll see what that means ... it sticks when wet, and the moisture doesnt wick very well when its under a layer ... because of its "fuzziness" fleece wicks moisture away from the skin pretty well ... which is why you can take a soaked fleece, wring it out and put it on right next to the skin, even under a rain jacket

now there ARE people who DO put on their rainjackets over their softshell/windshirts, but these are usually climbers or other such in the winter ... usually in activities where taking on/off multiple layers is more risky at belays than simply putting on another layer.... and even then in high output activities, they often take off the layers they dont need ... to sweat in winter is to die ... but most people here dont need to worry about it for what they do

at the end of the day its pretty useless to complain about breathability if you are layering you 2 LEAST breathable layers together when active

SKILLS trumps fancy fabric anyday

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/02/2013 08:55:01 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Why add weight.. on 09/02/2013 08:56:24 MDT Print View

But why add a thin base layer to your pack weight if you don't need it? I'll either wear just my t-shirt underneath my shell or the next step up will be my Squamish that i'm already carrying - multipurpose.

If we were talking short day trips, and not extended hikes, well, then picking and choosing from a never ending gear closet would be another deal ;-).


you ALREADY HAVE a thin base layer

in fact in WET conditions you should have 2 ...

1 for use during the day, 1 for sleeping in ... unless you like bringing moisture in you nice down sleeping bag

;)

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Disagree on 09/02/2013 08:58:14 MDT Print View

I guess our climate we hike in and our minds differs - no worries Eric.

Daniel Collins
(Diablo-V) - F

Locale: Orlando FL
the big question on 09/02/2013 09:02:24 MDT Print View

I think so far from the knowledge presented here, for the climates I mentioned, it would be a good idea to have both rain shell and separate windshell. I *think* I read somewhere of the windshell being used as a makeshift vapor barrier by someone after a rain shell DWR failure in extreme cold, in an emergency situation, but not sure.

A suggestion for a durable rain shell and pants would be appreciated with lightness being my preference over price. See my previous post - the suggestions for the RAB products didn't pan out since those mentioned are all discontinued. So we are looking for a breathable rain jacket that wont fail me in the freezing rain on the west side of the cascades, and that should last through a long AT or equivalent hike, and that should not tear wide open at the mere sight of a blackberry bush.
I saw this:
ZPacks™ Waterproof Breathable Cuben Fiber-eVent Rain Jacket

but it looks like a garbage sack with arms, designed for the tin man from OZ.
If it's the best thing going however, I will gladly cast all fashion sense aside and get one.
If my Marmot Dri-clime stretch pants are acceptable as wind pants, then I can save buying something else.
If a cuben fiber poncho/tarp is light enough to replace the tyvek ground sheet for my Skyscape-X, then I might be able to use it primarily for that, and secondarily as a backup in case of a rain shell failure.
This query has opened some healthy discussion on clothing philosophy so I hope it will continue. Remember to tell us what your price-is-no-object dream system consists of.
I will check out the links posted above from the person named .. er ... Link.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Why add weight.. on 09/02/2013 09:04:36 MDT Print View

"you ALREADY HAVE a thin base layer

in fact in WET conditions you should have 2 ...

1 for use during the day, 1 for sleeping in ... unless you like bringing moisture in you nice down sleeping bag

;)"

Nope, because i don't need a thin base layer during the day, i can take that weight and add it to my thicker sleeping baselayer, and thus, i'll be able to sleep comfortable at a lower temperature than you, for the same weight... ;-)

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
durable on 09/02/2013 09:07:29 MDT Print View

daniel ...

if you want "durable" get something thats 3 layer ...

but more importantly get something with a no questions, bring back for any reason WARRANTY

this and other board is littered with posts about rain jacket failures, principally from delamination

even the fanciest brand names have had their "bomber" jackets delaminate if your look for the threads here

and UL rain jackets are especially at risk of failure with their thinner fabrics, and 2.5 layer

;)

I *think* I read somewhere of the windshell being used as a makeshift vapor barrier by someone after a rain shell DWR failure in extreme cold, in an emergency situation, but not sure.

if a windshirt is used as a VBL ... its useless as a "breathable" windshirt =P

Edited by bearbreeder on 09/02/2013 09:11:01 MDT.

Daniel Collins
(Diablo-V) - F

Locale: Orlando FL
one more thing on 09/02/2013 09:08:08 MDT Print View

... and fer cryn out loud would you guys stop arguing long enough to tell me what a Squamish is ? Then keep arguing after that.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Why add weight.. on 09/02/2013 09:09:38 MDT Print View

Nope, because i don't need a thin base layer during the day, i can take that weight and add it to my thicker sleeping baselayer, and thus, i'll be able to sleep comfortable at a lower temperature than you, for the same weight... ;-)

of come on are you wearing NOTHING during the day at all?

yr wearing some kind of base layer ... whether a t-shirt, button up shirt, cap1, merino, etc ...

are ya going off about weight "bragging' over a shirt you bring anyways

;)

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: one more thing on 09/02/2013 09:13:08 MDT Print View

hehe :-)....it's just a windshell from Arc'teryx... nothing worth arguing over...haha :-)

What is more important is that you buy that Zpacks Event Cuben Fiber jacket, and make a great review about it after your trip!

Okay, got to run guys...take care :-)

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: one more thing on 09/02/2013 09:13:42 MDT Print View

and fer cryn out loud would you guys stop arguing long enough to tell me what a Squamish is ?

the squamish is one of the most expensive windshirts you can buy ..

some people claim is highly breathable, there is some dispute however on the numbers if you read certain threads ...

some good climbers use and swear by it ... even more use some other brand and do just as crazy things in the worst conditions

you decide if the fancy gear is worth the $$$$ ;)

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&category=Jackets&model=Squamish-Hoody

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Poncho/Groundheets on 09/02/2013 09:17:00 MDT Print View

Daniel,

Sounds like a wonderful multi-use item. Past experience has taught me that heavy use as a groundsheet will leave a poncho full of holes. I used my zPacks Cuben poncho/groundsheet as a groundsheet a few times when new, just to test it. On most trips I use a polycro ground sheet or a waterproof sleeping pad. Long term use of a poncho as a groundsheet is not a good idea, IMO.