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For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax anal. pump liner?
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just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/01/2013 02:28:01 MDT Print View

One of the things that the pump liner does, is to drive the water (both from inside and outside) to the outside of the fabric in a one way direction. Hence the term "pump".

Most "wicking" shirts do that to some extent, but they work in two importantly different ways. One, then tend to spread out the moisture over a broad surface area and two, they don't necessarily keep it on the outside--it's more of a two way street and moisture can easily come back in.

As someone who lives in the U.S., it's frustrating that these unique WPB systems are based solely in the U.K., which is very expensive and sometimes harder to obtain.

A little while back, i found something which purports to do a very similar thing as a Nikwax Analogy pump liner. However, how it achieves that one way directional pumping seems to be a bit different. Anyways, it's company called Nano-tex, which makes a technology they call "Dry Inside".

Here is a link and i highly suggest watching the linked youtube video demonstration that you will find on that page.
http://www.nanotex.com/technologies/dry_inside.html
This is exactly the effect that the N.A. pump liner achieves. Well, wasn't i tinkled pink when visiting Bass Pro Shop in my area, to find some shirts on sale that were made with Nano-tex Dry inside technology? I've yet to have cold rain since, but i plan to try it out with my Houdini. (i actually don't do much backpacking in Summer either since it's so humid and hot much of the time).

I bought it for around 20 dollars.. compare that to the pump liner i bought from Cioch which was about 90 dollars, which is "cheap" compared to buying a full Paramo jacket. One advantage to the Nano-tex dry inside is that it doesn't seem to require a DWR treatment. Two is the price and ease of availability.

One disadvantage however is finding one of these shirts in hooded form. The N.A. pump liner i ordered from Cioch of course was made with a hood. A hood is essential. I suppose one could buy a t-shirt version (cheaper than the long sleeved one i got) and cannibalize it to make a hood and sew it to the long sleeved one.

I also plan on testing and experimenting some with a thinnish polypro baselayer in combo with a windshirt, to see how that works. I suspect it won't work as well as the two above shirts/technology.

Anyways, i had mentioned the Nano-tex "dry inside" stuff before here, but no one showed the slightest interest. With the renewed attention on Paramo and like systems, perhaps devoting a thread to it might help to raise awareness?

Edited by ArcturusBear on 09/01/2013 02:44:06 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/01/2013 02:43:36 MDT Print View

I just realized i should NOT have abbreviated analogy in the subject header. Doh! "nothing to see here folks, just move along, this is not a freaky, sex thread."

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
dri clime on 09/01/2013 03:20:48 MDT Print View

dri clime has been around for many many many years ... and it works

the basic concept is implemented on many fleeces with fuzzy interiors, and to a lesser extent R1/C4 style layers

nothing new ...

http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_best_softshell_in_the_world

Of all the types of clothing on the market today, the one that truly represents what soft shell should be about is the shelled micro pile jacket. This type of top has been around now for over a decade, with Marmot being the first company to introduce such a piece with their Driclime pullover. The reason this type of top is so perfect is because the equation between weight and performance is so high with these pieces, although often now thicker than a base layer, actually replacing base, mid and shell, even in active sub zero conditions.

HOW THEY WORK

The heart of this clothing is its polyester micro pile interior which is, considering its weight, high volume but low density and hydrophobic, meaning it’s warm for its low weight, but also retains very little moisture, meaning there isn’t a lot for sweat or moisture to cling to. The micro pile surface is a perfect wicking surface as the actual surface contact is minimal. This means that when the fabric is damp it feels dry because the body is able to dry the micro pile ‘spikes’ almost instantly and even if the moisture level gets too high that the body’s unable to dry these spikes, it will still be able to warm the wet tip to body temperature, giving the illusion that they are dry (remember that the actual body contact with these spikes is much lower than the actual surface area of the top).

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: dri clime on 09/01/2013 11:29:39 MDT Print View

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the reply and info. I don't know much about Driclime. I tried to look for some videos on it akin to the "dry inside" stuff showing how it worked, but so far haven't found any.

So far, it sounds like Polartec Powerdry, in that it's a bi-component fabric that wicks very well and fast. That's not exactly the same thing as what Nikwax pump liners or Nano-tex dry inside does.

With most wicking fabrics, including the techy PolarTec Powerdry and the like, they take the moisture from the inside and rapidly spread it out over a larger surface area to quickly evaporate.

Neither Nikwax Analogy pump liners, or dry inside do that. They unidirectionally pump the moisture straight to the outside without spreading it out over a large surface area. Do you know of any videos demonstrating exactly how Driclime works, whether it's more of a "wicking" or more of a pumping type effect?

Thanks

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
pump on 09/01/2013 16:08:44 MDT Print View

theres only one real pump that matters IMO ... your body heat ...

the heat will pump out moisture, especially when active ... the little fuzzy bits on dri clime and powderdry simply speed up the process ... and allow a "dryer" feeling against the skin

as to the fancy nikwax and other stuff? ... who knows

one tell take sign of "effectiveness" IMO is that no one needs that fancy stuff to do thing gnarlier stuff in conditions worse than you, me or most other people on BPL do ....

you WILL get wet in the rain ... other than common sense gear, the most important thing is your moisture management technique ...

;)

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/13/2013 20:51:16 MDT Print View

I had a bass pro gift card so I thought Id give this one a shot...

World Wide Sportsman® NANO-tex® Dry Inside Crew 7.5oz for a Men's M

I wore it around today and I felt pretty comfortable at 80F with no exertion as it has a slightly loose fit.

Unfortunately, playing around with it, the pump properties are much less impressive than what is shown in the video.

The fabric inside this shirt doesn't swallow water drops quite like the swatch in the video does.

Also, after dropping a couple of drops on the outside, the inside does get wet.

Still I notice a mild direction effect. Whether or not it would be enough to provide much additional protection to a windshirt, iduuno.

Thanks for the heads up Justin, Have you had a chance to experiment with the shirt? I am especially interested in how you think it compares to the ciock liner.

Edited by jnklein21 on 09/13/2013 20:54:02 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/14/2013 21:11:24 MDT Print View

I've had a little experimentation with the shirt, but not so much backpacking. I do most of my backpacking in fall, winter, and spring since i live in the humid, hot southeast and i run warm. I bought this shirt late spring/early summer. What i have worn it while doing is during jogging.

I found it to be pretty good at moving the moisture, but like you, not as magical as those video demonstrations have shown.

I plan to test it more as it cools down, especially in relation to combining it with a windshirt in rain. It sounds like the new Houdini would be better for this than my slightly older version unfortunately.

How have you washed it so far? That might (actually, more like likely will) affect it's properties some. I suspect it would be best washed in a mild, soap based cleanser rather than a detergent, definitely without any fabric softeners, and then rinsed very well. In a sense, it would probably be best to treat it like a WPB, DWR, or super wicking fabric.

Unfortunately, the company doesn't really say "how" this shirt is supposed to work. I know a lot of their stuff works on chemical finishes or alterations of the fibers at micro levels, but there doesn't seem to be any information on Dry Inside. If it's a chemical or polymer type coating, then i'm a bit wary of the "for the life of the garment" claims.

Anyways, so far i think the Cioch liner is better at the pumping effect, but with these things it's really hard to say, how much, how little, in any objective or concrete way.

But when i get some cold and rainy weather, i plan to test both in comparison a lot more extensively using a windshirt as a shell. I'm not sure what i'm going to do about a "hood" with the Nano tex shirt since it has none. I've thought about buying a t-shirt and cutting it up and sewing on a hood to my long sleeve shirt.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/21/2013 05:09:32 MDT Print View

Pump liner looks similar to Cycling clothing's Roubaux style material: this is like lycra but with very short pile on one side, and is made mainly from nylon (rather than polyester). However, I haven't tried "nikwax"ing it and using it as pump-liner (pile faces outwards, protected by a windproof).

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/21/2013 20:35:57 MDT Print View

Thanks for the tip Alan. That would be interesting to try out. Nylon wouldn't be as inherently good for something like this, but if one used a water based soak type DWR, it might take the DWR better than the polyester material since it's not so hydrophobic off hand.

In the past, i've thought of reversing/turning inside out a Polartec powderdry shirt and nikwaxing or otherwise treating it with a DWR. Not sure how it would work either. I would like to try both the above. Problem is though, you need a hood. Bring on the cold rain!

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/21/2013 20:41:54 MDT Print View

Also should mention that i've often seen a fabric at Joann's and the like, which would be good for this. It's a type of "fleece" they sell which has one side short, very soft microfiber like pile, and one side smooth, made out of polyester, and even has sort of little v's on the smooth side like the NAPL material. If someone was handy with a sewing machine, be fairly easy to make a pump liner out of this material provided a DWR soak after.

What would be really cool, is to find a material like the above, but made out of polpro. Chances are, you wouldn't have to use any DWR ever. However, it might be too hot except for deeper cold.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/23/2013 09:15:34 MDT Print View

Hi Alan,

The more i have thought about it, the more i like your idea of trying that material. Nylon is going to be a bit lighter and a bit cooler potentially than the Nikwax Polyester stuff. One of the common complaints about Paramo and similar systems is that they are too warm for a lot of conditions. Another complaint is too heavy.

Do you know a good place to get these kind of garments for cheaper?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: For non Uk folks especially, inexpensive, possible substitute for Nikwax analogy pump liner? on 09/30/2013 23:07:08 MDT Print View

Becky and i were at Bass Pro Shop looking around, and decided to look around for any other possible Nixwax Analogy Pump liner substitutes (for ze lady) and to my delighted surprise dear chaps, found something relatively cheap that might work well after it gets soaked in a DWR.

It's the women's "Columbia Glacial Freeze III hoody". It's a poly micro fleece with a short fleece exterior and smooth interior--fairly lightweight and thin. It's not exactly like the Nikwax Pump liner i have, but close enough i imagine. It seems that the outside of the fabric was brushed to create the fleece part, which breaks up the threads decreasing the diameters on the outside from the larger diameter, smooth inner (where the threads/fibers are still bundled tightly together). It cost about 36 dollars not including tax.

It's the same basic principle behind Nixwax fabric which uses denier gradient concept to keep water more on the outside. (larger inside fibers to smaller outside fibers treated, both treated with hydrophobic coating).

It's nice that it comes with a hood too. I don't expect Becky to do much testing of it herself, as she is not as into this stuff as i am, so i will test it some myself. It's a decent green color, the one she picked out.

Brett Peugh
(bpeugh) - F - M

Locale: Midwest
sidenote on 10/03/2013 11:19:05 MDT Print View

Nanotex does look nice.

I use something similar in a Patagonia R2 and Momentum wind jacket. The R2 is from a few years ago and is almost all made out of a Polartech Themal Pro pile which is like the hair/fur that Nikwax Analogy is trying to duplicate. I guess a similar application could be found by using MH Monkey Phur also. The Momentum wind jacket has a DWR that is kind of built into the fabric so that is nice. My body heat seems to push any perspiration through and keep me dry in moderate rain while still holding the wet on the outside of the garments.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: sidenote on 10/03/2013 12:35:40 MDT Print View

Hi Brett,

My understanding so far is that any fabric which has larger diameter fibers/threads on the inside and smaller/thinner fibers on the outside within the same layer, when very hydrophobic, will work decently as a "pump liner".

Most of the thermal pro stuff that I've seen would be way too hot for any intense activity in most conditions. The pile side of the Nikwax stuff is very short. I will post some pics of it later tonight if I have time.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: sidenote on 10/03/2013 12:41:32 MDT Print View

The technical terms for such fabric would be denier gradient or gradient differential. Maybe you could also post some pics of the inside and outside of the R2 stuff?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Pics of Cioch sewn Nikwax Analogy Pump Liner on 10/03/2013 20:01:27 MDT Print View

This is a close up of the outside of the fabric and the Cioch logo.Cioch logo

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Pics of Cioch sewn Nikwax Analogy Pump Liner on 10/03/2013 20:03:19 MDT Print View

Another pic, with the hood showing (a hood is very important to have if you are going to try to replicate/re-create the Paramo type system).pic of hood

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Pics of Cioch sewn Nikwax Analogy Pump Liner on 10/03/2013 20:06:15 MDT Print View

This is a better pic, showing the inside of the fabric and contrasting it with some of the outside "pile" side. Note the pile is quite short all in all.fabric inside

Brett Peugh
(bpeugh) - F - M

Locale: Midwest
stink on 10/04/2013 10:06:18 MDT Print View

What is the stink factor on the Nano-tex stuff?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: stink on 10/04/2013 21:22:27 MDT Print View

I don't know yet, i've only worn it jogging and day hiking so far. For these, i didn't notice any appreciable stink, but i suspect due to my unusual diet and temperament, i have have less stink than the average American male.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/04/2013 22:25:33 MDT.