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Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 19:58:50 MDT Print View

"If there is a demand for defense against statist aggressors, the marke will meet that need."

Same scenario I provided above. Soviet statist aggressor at the dang door. Everyone from coast to coast wants them gone. How does a society (can I still call it that?) fund the billions of dollars needed to defend itself from tanks and bombs? Run a special at the local Piggly Wiggly that for every Pokemon card you buy, $.50 will go to a new tank?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:12:23 MDT Print View

Oh Hell.... just for feces and giggles lets say that the Piggly Wiggly Pokemon Card sale is a complete success everywhere in the non-united land of America, with the exception that there is a recession in Oregon because Retired Jerry started a coup d’état because Voodoo Donuts discontinued the bacon maple bar....

So the territory once called Oregon cannot raise enough money to buy tanks and the Soviets have landed in Newport. Since we are all individuals and there is no central government, how does the land once known as Oregon defend itself from genocide?

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/29/2013 20:12:58 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:25:48 MDT Print View

The Soviet threat was always exhagerated to justify giving money to big companies and so politicians could get re-elected. The "military industrial complex"

And the Soviets did the same thing. Vicious cycle with Soviet and U.S. right wingers.

Same thing with Iran - they say they're going to destroy Israel and that the holocost never happened because it appeals to their right wingers so they'll stay in office. Our right wingers say equally obnoxious things about Iran.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:27:32 MDT Print View

Oh what the fig freaking newtons....

Let’s just say that it's 1950. There is no government. There is no system. The Soviets have decided that while they've invaded the Iron Curtain countries, and were really really pissed at us for not invading Japan with them so they could occupy some of that country as well.... they are just going to leave us alone because it would be really really mean to do so...

Let's just take national defense out of the picture all together.

Assuming the land mass that was once the U.S. continues on its current trend and a woman is sexually assaulted every two minutes. How would the perpetrator be brought to justice? Would all conflict be dealt with with vigilante justice?

Same scenario but totally different.

Now your son goes on a date. He's a perfect gentleman and never lays a hand on his date. She later finds out that he's not interested in her and has started dating her best friend. To seek revenge, she tells the paid security officers in her neighborhood that your son raped her. How would your son prove his innocence to the angry mob?

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/29/2013 20:40:01 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:33:59 MDT Print View

"The Soviet threat was always exhagerated to justify giving money to big companies and so politicians could get re-elected. The 'military industrial complex'"

You can't be serious. Are you really proposing that the Iron Curtain, East Germany, Berlin Airlift, the millions who died due to starvation and murder under Stalin was just propoganda so we could fund the military and related companies?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
For the record on 08/29/2013 20:40:57 MDT Print View

The OP is "Ask an Anarchist" so I'm asking.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 21:05:45 MDT Print View

"You can't be serious. Are you really proposing that the Iron Curtain, East Germany, Berlin Airlift, the millions who died due to starvation and murder under Stalin was just propoganda so we could fund the military and related companies?"

No, I'm saying that the Soviet nuclear capability was exhagerated.

And the "domino principal" rationalization for war with Viet Nam.

After WWII, the Soviets lost 10s of millions of people to a country that attacked them, so they took over a bunch of East European countries as a buffer. And Stalin was a horrible monster. I'm not saying there was anything good about that, but I don't think there was ever a risk that the Soviets would gradually take over the world, country by country.

Rather than using the miltary to end the Soviet Union, it's better to let culture and consumer goods do it. Like the kids were into The Beatles and other popular culture which they wanted to take part in. Or the Soviet propoganda people showed pictures of slums in Mississippi or wherever, but in the background was a TV screen, so the reaction of the propogandees was "wow, they even have televisions in slums".

Like Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex having undue inluence on the government. Or Smedly Butler who said war is a racket. Or Colin Powel who said if we have a war we should have a well defined mission and quickly get out. Listen to the military leaders who have experienced the horrors of wars.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:05:39 MDT Print View

Ahem, hipster boy-o, how is all that China made tech equipment working for ya? Oh, what? You only reply back when it is applicable? Snort.

PS: Trying to compare clothing to iphones ain't cutting it. Sorry, but a lot of fabric is still made in the US and it is pretty darn easy to sew your own clothing. A wee bit harder to assemble a smartphone. Back in the day (since I am fast approaching cougar age and all), I sewed all my clothing while following the Dead. I even sold clothing to support my lifestyle choice.

I knew a lot of "anarchists" who I preferred to call lazy, overly privileged children of middle class whities. They lived a certain lifestyle, squatting in buildings and being mooches - yet never turning down anything from Mummy and Daddy when offered. Had a roommate in college who showed up one day with all her squatter friends and moved them into OUR place. I went to work 5 days a week to have a roof over my head, not to support their bum lifestyle. These same mooches were involved later in the WTO riots in Seattle.

Hows about instead of preaching anarchy you instead go off the grid and be sufficient? It is possible.

But first you'd need to destroy your iphone. And all technology you have. Crazy talk, eh? Cause that internet ain't going to exist without governments to govern it.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:29:55 MDT Print View

Oh yeah, the government created the internet.

That is, they developed darpanet for the military, then Al Gore pushed to make it public and they passed some bills to do some funding to transfer the technology for the public.

You will now hypothesize it would have been done faster by private people rather than those evil government leaches.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:44:26 MDT Print View

Goodness Sarah.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:53:12 MDT Print View

"Goodness Sarah."

Touched a nerve?

I don't think Sarah's anarchists have much to do with Ike's

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:56:55 MDT Print View

"Touched a nerve?"

I guess so.

Jerry, you have disagreed with the OP, but have done so without insulting and by making your case. ..
Feeling entitled to just insult because one dislikes another's view point is wrong in my opinion.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/29/2013 22:58:08 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:01:59 MDT Print View

Since we're transitioning from the absurd to a serious conversation....

Jerry,

We're mostly in agreement with the exception of the Soviet Union's desire to expand. And even then I'm not in total disagreement with you. We were not just trying to contain the Soviet Union, we were trying to contain communism in general.

As far as the Soviets are concerned, they made plans to split Poland with Germany at the time they signed the non aggression pact before WWII. The Iron Curtain speaks for itself. Czechoslovakia and Hungary were invaded by the Soviets. East Germans were held captive behind a wall. The Soviet Union toyed with Turkey and carved off a piece of Iran for oil rights.

As we watched the Soviets and tried to figure out their next move, Mao & co. established the PRC in 1949, the Korean War shortly thereafter, one million card carrying communists almost won power in France, no one had any idea what the two million communists in Italy were going to do, Greece had a thriving communist party, etc, etc.

So we dug our heels with our containment policy with Vietnam. You are absolutely correct. I had a History of the American War in Vietnam prof. who spent a couple tours in Vietnam as a soldier and a few years afterwards as a CIA officer; he said the same thing as you, "Instead of bombs and grunts, we should have invaded Vietnam with Cadillacs and Lincolns." I think after being invaded by China, French Colonialism, Japan, only to have us liberate them from Japan and then turn around and deputize the Japanese to police Vietnam... they were looking for anything which would allow for them to live as an independent nation and the banner of communism offered them the most hope.

Even after we enacted the containment policy the Soviets kept us on our toes. They obviously had our attention during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

In light of all this, I don't think our fears were unfounded and our investments in our defense to be unwise. Don't get me wrong, I spent a decade in the military and was sickened to see KBR and other companies run off with truck loads of money but I don't think the Cold War was invented to fund a DOD good ol' boy system. Would the Soviets have ever launched a nuclear missile at us? Dunno but I think M.A.D. helped to hedge our bets.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 23:05:23 MDT Print View

I think that anyone that starts a thread defending being an anarchist must enjoy being insulted

masochist?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:09:36 MDT Print View

Two disclaimers.

1) I'm not calling anyone a cougar. I just barely learned what that means a couple years ago and I'm not entirely sure I would use it in the appropriate context.

2) Not too many people I know who remember or were around for the WTO riots are willing to cut the Anarchists much slack. Shameful cowards.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:13:06 MDT Print View

"Cadillacs and Lincolns"

or hospitals and schools

we'll never know the half of what all has happened

I think the "military industrial complex" took advantage of any real communist risk and exhagerated that risk to make a bunch of money

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:28:01 MDT Print View

"I think the "military industrial complex" took advantage of any real communist risk and exhagerated that risk to make a bunch of money"

That's the government and government contractors across the board. Everyone is trying to protect their budget and their little fiefdom.

I'm certainly not saying it wasn't a factor and didn't somehow exacerbate the problem, I'm just saying that there were legitimate fears of the Soviets and communists in general. If you think about it, the US wasn't much of a superpower before WWII. We had dabbled in isolationism prior to WWII but Pearl Harbor forced our hand.

Suddenly the war is over, our European allies are trying to rebuild their infrastructure, we're trying to rebuild Germany, the Soviets are still pissed about the fact that we have the bomb and didn't bring them into the fold when we dropped them on Japan, they react to their insecurities, we react to ours.... a few proxy wars and trillion dollars later here we are parking our boats near Syria playing the world's 911 service.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 23:30:26 MDT Print View

"Seven new companies are getting into the auto market.

Coda, wheego, Tesla, Tango, BYD,GEM, SABA, plus Fisker, Think, and Venturi are expanding into the US market. "

Don't forget Elio!

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:31:18 MDT Print View

" a few proxy wars and trillion dollars later here we are parking our boats near Syria playing the world's 911 service"


And where are the protests now? I don't see any. I wish I did !

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:58:35 MDT Print View

"And where are the protests now? I don't see any. I wish I did !"

At least this won't be a prolonged war like Afganistan or Iraq

I don't see the big deal, 100,000s of people have been killed with conventional weapons. 100s with chemical weapons.

When Hussein was using chemical weapons against Iran, he was our buddy.

Lobbing some cruise missles probably won't help things