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Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 16:22:23 MDT Print View

"The resources of the planet are finite. Just letting people do what they please will result in a degraded planet adversly affecting me and my relations and friends. Recognizing that and doing nothing is evil."

So because the resources of the planet are finite, we've got to have an oranization which has no stake in the matter, take responsibility of ALL the resources to safe guard them.

"Just letting people do what they please will result in a degraded planet adversly affecting me and my relations and friends."

You dont know that. You are commiting the fallacy of false dichotomy, you are saying it can only be one way or the other and there can be no other third way or other options. I have repeatedly pointed out alternatives to force and violence to you and you have ignored all of them.

"Computers and integrated circuits were developed to calculate artillery tables and break codes during and after WWII."

Wrong, Konrad Zuse invented the first computer. It was invented by a man not a faceless government that exists only in the minds of its believers. All things have been invented by men not states, states are religions and like other religions, they exist in the minds of their followers. Individuals do things, government is not embodied.

"The GI bill paid for millions education."

Not without first stealing the money from someone else who could have used it for their education. If contracts were made to soldiers, i am sympathetic of those contracts but they were still illegitimate since no one can make a contract with someone elses property as the payment.

"I got my education in 1960s and 1970s. Heavily government subsidized."

i can tell.

"If there wern't government programs we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now."
False dichotomy fallacy, you don't know that.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 16:25:42 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Issue on 08/29/2013 16:36:19 MDT Print View

I get your issue, everyone has one or two issues they are holding on to that they think only a violent monopoly could provide. You think without a state, land you cherish would be ruined and this is a very important issue to you.

I can tell you for certain, if you truly think that land should be protected, then I am sure lots of other people do as well. If there is a market demand for the land to be prOtected it will. You should explore voluntary ways of getting it protected, like raising fund and buying it, that way it is owned. I'm sure environmentalist billionaires would be happy to buy land to preserve it, millions of contributions from ordinary folk would go along way as well. Consider that tr Appalachian trail is a great example of anarchy and voluntary human interaction. It is completely maintained without th use of force, imagine that-people work together to preserve what is important to thm, I believe they call them trail angels. We don't need force and violence to protect that whih we love, persuasion is superior to force and violence.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 16:42:39 MDT Print View

"How can you do evil by doing nothing? DOING EVIL implies action"

German citizens, Holocaust.






Or does a Godwin have to directly compare someone or something to Hitler? Is the Godwin nullified if attempted in deliberate self-awareness? I have no energy to look up the specifics, this thread has drained my will to live.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 17:01:21 MDT Print View

If a thread drains your will to live, see a doctor and stop reading it.

I disagree that all German citizens are somehow responsible for the holocaust, you are cOllectivizing people. By your logic, i would be responsible for the children Obama blew to hamburger because I pay federal taxes-under threat of imprisonment and violence. What about the people who do not vote, are they responsible for it. Can te people who vote be responsible? If they truly belIeved that the politicians were telling the truth and did not know what government is then I would say no, but I'd they knew that government is a criminal gang and voted anyway then they would be responsible. To say that we are responsible for what politicians do implies that politicians do what we want them to.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 17:08:07 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 17:09:03 MDT Print View

I'm not sacrificing five minutes of my life to read through this thread to see if this question was answered elsewhere.

Why do you randomly capitalize letters? By no means am I a spelling nazi (wait did I just lose?) but I've noticed that you like to do this and wasn't sure if I'm supposed to take all of the capitalized letters, decode some sentence, and then figure out where the Free Masons hid Hoffa's body or what.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Capitalization on 08/29/2013 17:12:02 MDT Print View

The dang iPhone is responsible for that and many other misspellings. Are you calling me a conspiracy theorist?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 17:12:23 MDT Print View

"If there wern't government programs we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now."
False dichotomy fallacy, you don't know that."

We do know that technology was developed with heavy government spending.

We do not know what would have happened without government spending.


"I got my education in 1960s and 1970s. Heavily government subsidized."

i can tell."

ha, ha, ha... my education was electrical engineering and since we haven't talked about that, you wouldn't be able to assess the quality of that education : )

when you have run out of logical arguments, you have to sling personal insults


... faceless government that exists only in the minds of its believers ...

The government is us. We elect politicians. If we don't like them, throw the bums out. It doesn't seem to be working very good right now but it's better than alternatives.


Now if we could just agree with that cartoon, that the intersection of Occupy and Teaparty is that companies have bought our government, maybe we could demand that this be fixed. Maybe fix constitution to say that companies don't have free political speech rights.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 17:20:44 MDT Print View

"this thread has drained my will to live."

That produced a very healthful gut laugh, thanks, this thread has proved useful


Does the Godwin rule apply if you compare someone to Hitler that has nothing to do with Hitler, but if you mention that Zuse was funded by the Nazis then the Godwin rule doesn't apply because he was funded by the Nazis?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Capitalization on 08/29/2013 17:31:43 MDT Print View

"The dang iPhone is responsible for that and many other misspellings. Are you calling me a conspiracy theorist?"

I hear you. I do the same thing all the dang time. My ability to edit is usually a few minutes slower than my ability to hit send/enter/whatever.

I honestly didn't know if this was a new thing or not. I'm not on Readit or whatever it is you crazy kids do these days and I'm pretty out of touch. Someone had to explain the term "Cougar" to me a couple years ago; I had no idea that it was a colloquialism for a middle aged woman. The good news is that I learned of it before my then 10 year old daughter had to do a presentation on mountain lions so I was very careful with our internet searches.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Bawhahaha on 08/29/2013 17:36:36 MDT Print View

An Anarchist with an iphone. Oh man, the irony is just dripping.

Snort.

Sorry, MUST quit laughing.

Corporations are evil, but darn it, I HAVE to HAVE my hipster smartphone!!!!! Who cares if it is made by slave and child labor!

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
German citizens! on 08/29/2013 17:38:36 MDT Print View

"German citizens. Holocaust."


Wow.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Conversation on 08/29/2013 17:57:27 MDT Print View

This could be just a stimulation conversation. Someone calling for a shift of paradigm ought not to be a threat.
I just find it interesting and worth discussing. What harm can come of that?

I have no idea how or if this would work, but I like to hear about it.
I recently argued with someone with Ike's views about water, and how that would work if not regulated. How do you see that working out Ike?
Also, medical research and the resulting advances?



Vaguely related..
I am currently reading a book about Switzerland and how and why it is what it is.
The Swiss escaped the full consequences of three characteristic European trends: the trend toward rational centralization, the growth of nationalism and the violence of religious conflict.
Nationalism. How's that working out worldwide?



Edited for spelling.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/29/2013 17:58:02 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Bawhahaha on 08/29/2013 18:02:07 MDT Print View

Corporations are a legal creation of th government. Are every one of your clothes made by non-slaves? They are as much victims of statism as we are.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 18:04:11 MDT Print View

and now memes.


It's almost over

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 18:16:05 MDT Print View

"We do not know what would have happened without government spending."

Government spending is a code word for stolen loot. Exactly, we do not know what the world would be like with a free market in technology. I would take a guess that we would not be driving cars. Imagine if the horse and buggy guys could have used patents and ip law to block the release of the car for years and years. I think government has a negative impact on technology in that it is hijacked by corporations and used to prevent innovation. This is why apple spends more on litigation than R&D.

"The government is us."

So you bombed Afghanistan? You re not the government , you don't have a right to go to your neighbors house and demand a portion of his income. You hallucinate that you are the government but that is the extent of you actually being it.

"It doesn't seem to be working very good right now but it's better than alternatives."

Changing who robs and rules you makes no difference. Removing the double standard that allows one group of people to rule, rob and dominate everyone else-effectively making them equal, is going to change things.

Lysander spOoner said th constitution has either authorized the government we have or been powerless to preent it, either way It is unfit to exist. I would agree with that, befor the ink was even dry, Washington was lying to create an army to kill tax protestors and establish his semi-monopoly in the whiskey industry. It was failed before it ever began.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: German citizens! on 08/29/2013 18:19:47 MDT Print View

"Wow."

Well, clearly it did not end the thread, so the hyperbole was for nothing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Capitalization and Cougar on 08/29/2013 18:21:45 MDT Print View

Ian. A Cougar IS a middle aged woman, but one looking to date younger men.
Just making sure those kids explained it correctly.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Impressive on 08/29/2013 18:31:31 MDT Print View

Wow that is amazing that you can type such a lengthy posts on such a tiny screen. I'd lose my place.

Thanks for the entertainment.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Capitalization and Cougar on 08/29/2013 18:33:27 MDT Print View

Cougar is a middle aged woman if you're a younger man

If you're a middle aged man, then Cougar is an older woman

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Water on 08/29/2013 18:36:04 MDT Print View

As far as water goes, it is no different than any other resource and as such is not immune from economic reality or truths. People care for that which they own, if no one owns it, you get the island of trash in the ocean. When you remove the incentive to care for th environment by collectivizing it you get exactly what would be expected by unowned property, it gets trashed.

Companies who benefit from selling products that purify water would help to keep it clean as well. If commercial drone traffic were legalized there could be trash drones that pick up trash. If a river ran through your prOperty and someone downstream polluted it and it affected you, you could sue them. Without private property there is no one to be angry and no one to sue.

Government is antithetical to environmental stewardship. The only way to safeguard the environment is by recognizing property rights, and the right to sue for damages. It is government that bombards the planet with nuclear and conventional weapons, operates the most fuel-inefficient vehicles, and protects corporations from liability for their actions. Governments also distort the market's natural rationing mechanisms through price controls, subsidies, and irrational regulations.

In contrast, a market with a manipulation-free price structure provides a distributed grassroots information network to signal supply and demand accurately, to better allow people to understand the availability of goods and services, and to provide automatic incentives for conservation or for exploration for new resources.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 18:39:38 MDT.