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just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear) - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 00:41:12 MDT Print View

Ike, I agree with some of your principles and ideals as some make sense to me.

A few general thoughts about all this. When we start to think of ourselves and label ourselves as this or that ("I'm a______"), it's often an indication that we have bought into a certain belief system. By their very nature, belief systems tend to be narrow in scope and separative in nature. Ideologies are no substitute for the very complex, mysterious, fluidic, and multifaceted nature of life or even of humans and our evolution. Somehow, when we think we have it all figured out in the specifics, we often have missed the mark.

I've had and continue to have some odd experiences in life, things that don't fit the mainstream paradigms, and speaking from that space, i can tell you that to some extent, i DO see your idealized civilization form and not as far off as some may think (speaking in terms of probabilities only though, freewill is quite the wild card at times).

However, it won't happen primarily from people passionately and logically speaking to others about a belief system and ideology, but rather in response to collective severity and challenge. To make a parable of sorts. Humanity is akin to a feuding, bickering family wherein selfishness and disharmony is prevalent, and so people within the family suffer though all in the family have the same basic wish, to be happy. One day, Grandma, whom happens to be beloved by all in the family, gets sick and goes to the hospital. This difficult event becomes a catalyst to the family, and the different disparate parts pull together in a greater unity to rally around Grandma, whom they all care about and want to see get better. In trying to help Grandma and working together for that common, positive goal, they begin to forget about their petty differences and selfishness some. The more they do this, the happier they become, and the happier they truly become, the more they really like it and desire to be healthy and whole in a consistent sense.

The change that can and will likely happen will and has to be a basic spiritual change. A change within primarily hearts and ideals--not so much ideas and intellect. We can have different ideas and beliefs, but it's important that we have the same ideals. Our grandma, is our basic survival. Some very difficult things are likely and to some extent scheduled to happen in the nearish future. Essentially a collapse of civilization as we know it.

It will be this catalyst of world wide recognized necessity that potentially will be the catalyst to wake people up to the reality and importance of Oneness/unity, which Love is the active livingness and recognition of the balance and interplay of Individuality and Oneness in a balanced, constructive manner. In having to work together for our basic survival, we will finally start to get beyond these various ism's, belief systems, ideologies, separations and unimportant differences, and live the truth of the core of reality. And we're going to have help in this, from different beings and areas of consciousness--especially once we show them we're really serious about growing up.

I hope Ike that you will be one of those important parts of helping this to come to fruition when the time comes, but please realize that truth cannot be foisted upon anyone, not intellectually and through words so much as by example and livingness of truth. Yes, it's important to get certain messages out there, but the real change happens by and from emptying self of hindrances and attuning to that which is Creative, Constructive, Positive and Expanding in nature, and eventually your very "vibe" will tend to have an influence, especially when backed by positive actions and example.

And people like that, very well may get killed by others not ready for this and to whom the Light reveals their painful darkness and in that pain they lash out trying to get rid of those channeling that offensive and glaring Light in which nothing is corrupt. Have no fear, the real you, cannot be harmed in this manner anyways.

I recommend meditation and prayer combo as an aide, seeking to be led within by that which is purely constructive and spiritually helpful in nature. There are consciousnesses which are far, far, far more aware and wise than most of us humans, and they would like to help if we would only listen--but the intent, the desire to connect ONLY to these, the most helpful, most loving, most aware, creative, etc is quite important. And they don't care about or really use names per se, but some well known human ones are very much among them.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 02:24:26 MDT Print View

Sarah, I know this is chaff, but wow you are making yourself look stupid. Why are you comparing the OP to some lazy bums you met?
He has been nothing but reasonable in debating his beliefs and you use empty insults and generalize someone you've never met.
The OP is an capitalist anarchist, he isn't trying to take down the economy. I see no reason why he should be called a hypocrite for owning an iphone.
There is nothing about anarchism that forces you to be self sufficient.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 07:48:44 MDT Print View

Justin et al,

I can't speak for Sarah. Before 1999, I figured Anarchy was a punk band and something the skaters like to paint on their boards. When they trashed Seattle, any hope they had to be taken seriously (which I doubt they ever would) evaporated overnight.

I ready a lot of Ike's theory on Anarchy but there's a lot to wade through. Anarchy is not feasible for many of the same reasons true communism was unobtainable. Human nature is that we are dbags and will not hesitate to exploit each other. Throughout history, war has been the rule and not the exception. The world will need to collectively rise above human nature before this conversation can even be put on the table.

As I mentioned before, every two minutes a woman is sexually assaulted here in the U.S. Many of those assaults are from a person of trust or a family member. We need a justice system. We need competent detectives to investigate these cases. Furthermore, we need cops to keep drunk drivers off of the road, EMTs and Paramedics to scrape us off the road, Firefighters to fight fire etc.

Let's just use the Ambulance as an example. I worked on one for a private company for a few years while I was going to college. We were a nonprofit company, we had some tax support from the local communities, and we billed the patients. Our collection rates from the patients was less than 60% and our tax base did little to take the edge off. We were broke and couldn't pay our staff a living wage. We had ambulances break down because they were kept on the road too long.

That was with some tax support. Take that away and we would have been a defunct company. There are some private fire departments here in the U.S. If you don't pay into the system, they will protect your neighbor's house as they watch yours burn to the ground. Sorry but I can't do that. What Paramedic is going to watch a kid die from a diabetic emergency because the parents can't pay?

I don't like everything about my government but I work to make it better. Complaining doesn't help and pontificating about magical nonpolitical systems isn't all that productive.

The good news is that I'm happy and satisfied with my life. I do object to the OP insisting that my happiness is a result of me being brain washed and a slave to the system. My academic background is political science and criminal justice; I have had a few opportunities to think these things over. Taking a position that those who disagree with you are brainwashed just cheapens your argument even further.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
respond on 08/30/2013 08:13:54 MDT Print View

i was off yesterday everybody, im on break right now, i will get responses for everyone when i have time.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:17:23 MDT Print View

"That makes no sense. Why on earth would I want that to happen? Don't get me wrong, I loved the original Red Dawn and would love nothing more than to shoot an RPG while screaming "Wolverines" at an invading commie but seriously, why would anyone want that to happen?

I study history. I see that it is cyclical. I understand that to predict the future I need to look to the past. I see nothing in history which would argue that your theories have a snowballs chance of working in the real world."

I wasn't saying you wanted that to happen i was saying you were begging the question, you were assuming that x would be a certain way in the absense of a state without being able to know that and settup up your question so that x is assumed in the question already. That is called begging the question, it is a logical fallacy.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:25:11 MDT Print View

I think that things are slowly getting better with the existing system.

The (U.S.) Civil War was horrible. WWI and WWII not as bad. Vietnam not as bad as those. Afganistan and Iraq were mere skermishes. At the rate we're going, maybe we'll quit having wars.

We used to routinely support corrupt dictators if they'de sell us their resources, like Shah of Iran, other Middle East countries, South American countries,... Now we're at least talking about supporting democracies. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Egypt, at least Egyptians are the deciders rather than us.

Cold war with Soviets is gone.

A lot of countries have fairly good standard of living from Europe to Japan and Korea. China and India are getting there.

U.S. spending as a percent of GDP bounces around but it's been a little over 20% for decades:
usspendingvstime

That's from wikipedia "government spending". doesn't show Obama very good, but if you've noticed, with the wars ending and the economy improving we're going back from higher levels to more historic average.

Lots of diseases have been cured and others are on the way.

We don't need revolution, we need evolution. Like you right wingers that filibuster anything that's not just what you want need to wake up out of your hysteria : )

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:25:21 MDT Print View

"Same scenario I provided above. Soviet statist aggressor at the dang door. Everyone from coast to coast wants them gone. How does a society (can I still call it that?) fund the billions of dollars needed to defend itself from tanks and bombs? Run a special at the local Piggly Wiggly that for every Pokemon card you buy, $.50 will go to a new tank?"

You are inferring that without a state there is no soceity. This is one of the greatest mistake that statists make. Also, you are essentially arguing from fear which is no argument at all. If you feel threatened by people leaving you alone(anarchy), then say so, don't project your fear unto everyone else.

So essentially you are afraid that a russian state will take over and force russian statism on us, what you fail to realize is we are already taken over and under statist rule as of right now, it is called the United States. Tell me, what is so different about being a slave to the russian system than being a slave to the american system?

The hope is that a free society will survive though education and distributed force—there are no prohibitions on building, importing, or trading arms—and be able to repel invasion from without and enslavement from within; but it is certainly possible it could fail… a guerrilla war might be fought to defeat the new tax-eaters; there are many possibilities.

"The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State." —Murray Rothbard

You falsely confuse "society" with the state. They are different; the state does not build society, but people do, of their own initiative. The state frequently interferes, by coercing people on their own land, and extorting them, but it is not "society"; it is the disease that infects society. Society and government cannot be merged; one is voluntary, the other force.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:35:33 MDT Print View

"Ahem, hipster boy-o"

I am not a hipster, i will be an anarchist/voluntaryist until the day i die.

"how is all that China made tech equipment working for ya? Oh, what? You only reply back when it is applicable? Snort."

I replied to someone who made a similar comment as you, may have been you. Either way, am i supposed to build my own cell phone given that ALL the options are made with slave labor. Am I somehow responsible for the fact that government has granted corporations so much power due to their status as the governmnet created legal entity that they are in the situation they are in?

"I knew a lot of "anarchists" who I preferred to call lazy, overly privileged children of middle class whities. They lived a certain lifestyle, squatting in buildings and being mooches - yet never turning down anything from Mummy and Daddy when offered. Had a roommate in college who showed up one day with all her squatter friends and moved them into OUR place. I went to work 5 days a week to have a roof over my head, not to support their bum lifestyle. These same mooches were involved later in the WTO riots in Seattle."

Voluntaryists are non-violent anarchists, libertarian anarchists are non-violent anarchists. Property damage is against our main principle: the non-agression principle. By lumping ancaps, voluntaryists and libertarian anarchists in the same category as moltov cocktail throwing window bashing moochers clearly shows you have no idea what voluntaryism, anarchocapitalism or libertarian anarchism is and you make yourself look foolish.

"Hows about instead of preaching anarchy you instead go off the grid and be sufficient? It is possible."

I've already done that, but still on the grid in a sense. Why do you assume to know so much about me. For a grateful dead fan, you sure are judgemental of someone you know nothing about.

"But first you'd need to destroy your iphone. And all technology you have. Crazy talk, eh? Cause that internet ain't going to exist without governments to govern it."

The internet would not exist without governmnet to govern it...Ever heard of mesh net? It seems to me that governments are the ones destroying the internet with censorship and law making. You really have faith in governmnet don't you?

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:37:09 MDT Print View

"I think that anyone that starts a thread defending being an anarchist must enjoy being insulted

masochist?"

I'll rephrase for you:

"I think anyone who starts a thread defending being an advocate of non-aggression and property rights must enjoy being insulted"

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:41:52 MDT Print View

"A few general thoughts about all this. When we start to think of ourselves and label ourselves as this or that ("I'm a______"), it's often an indication that we have bought into a certain belief system"

Unfortunately the only way for many people to understand where you stand is to label myself. I stand for peace, the non-initiation of force and property rights. I find this to be natural to the human.

"I hope Ike that you will be one of those important parts of helping this to come to fruition when the time comes, but please realize that truth cannot be foisted upon anyone, not intellectually and through words so much as by example and livingness of truth"

Of course, i agree 100%. That's why i've made changes in my life and lots of people are doing the same in the liberty movement. There is a whole mass of people moving to new hampshire for the free state project. There is alot happening in the liberty movement.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:46:08 MDT Print View

I've provided real scenarios which have happened to other countries throughout history regarding being invaded. You cannot provide a solution to those problems with anarchy other than to call me a slave to my fears.

I've provided real scenarios which are happening at this very moment regarding crime. Your solution is mall cops for hire.

I'm willing to discuss this from a historical perspective, sociological perspective, public safety perspective, and discuss every aspect of those perspectives. From the best I can tell, you are daydreaming out loud with no data or example of how anarchy could work. Furthermore, if anyone disagrees with you, you are so certain of the superiority of your opinion that you resort to calling them slaves who live in fear.

I've had to keep the peace around the world. I've studied these topics in depth. My opinions aren't a product of pondering the meaning of margarine in a coffee shop.

You keep talking in circles without adding anything to the OP you created. If you have something to add then I'll be happy to respond and debate but I suspect this conversation was over long before it started.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Ask an Anarchist on 08/30/2013 08:46:25 MDT Print View

The return to mining our money from the ground will be a refreshing break from the stability of a government backed fiat currency.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:52:26 MDT Print View

"Human nature is that we are dbags and will not hesitate to exploit each other. " "

Which is exactly why we cannot have a state. It gives the exploiters an army, nukes, the ability to steal and initiate force against everyone else. Exploiters gravitate to position of power.

"The world will need to collectively rise above human nature before this conversation can even be put on the table. "

The state is merely the WORST PARTS of human nature codified into a collective beast that has killed more people than any other force on this planet.

"We need a justice system. We need competent detectives to investigate these cases. Furthermore, we need cops to keep drunk drivers off of the road, EMTs and Paramedics to scrape us off the road, Firefighters to fight fire etc. "

You don't think people who are actually WORKING FOR YOU could do this? Do you think a monopoly system provides good service? What if walmart was the only department store, do you think they would do a good job or have low prices? We can have cops, EMTS and paramedics in a free society. We can have a justice system. You claim to have done lots of research into anarchy, but you have no knowledge of how services could be provided without violence and theft. Goto stefan molyneuxs channel on youtube and do some research, you would fail the preschool anarchy exam.

"Let's just use the Ambulance as an example. I worked on one for a private company for a few years while I was going to college. We were a nonprofit company, we had some tax support from the local communities, and we billed the patients. Our collection rates from the patients was less than 60% and our tax base did little to take the edge off. We were broke and couldn't pay our staff a living wage. We had ambulances break down because they were kept on the road too long."

"I don't like everything about my government but I work to make it better."

You are not the government, the government is not you.

Because your NON-PROFIT company failed does not mean other companies will fail. Precisely because it was a non-profit is likely why it failed but i cannot assume to know since i know nothing about it. If it had a profit motive it may have succedded. Do you think government systems are sustainable? Systems with no profit motive and no incentive to provide good service? What happens when the government services cannot balance their check book, they just get more money from the people through theft or print more and steal through inflation. Do you see why this is doomed to fail? You cannot assume that because a NON-profit you worked for failed that some how all for profit services would fail in a free market, that is lunacy.

"The good news is that I'm happy and satisfied with my life. I do object to the OP insisting that my happiness is a result of me being brain washed and a slave to the system. My academic background is political science and criminal justice; I have had a few opportunities to think these things over. Taking a position that those who disagree with you are brainwashed just cheapens your argument even further."

Are you a prosecutor?

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:57:40 MDT Print View

"I've provided real scenarios which have happened to other countries throughout history regarding being invaded. You cannot provide a solution to those problems with anarchy other than to call me a slave to my fears. "

And i provided you answers, read above.

"I've provided real scenarios which are happening at this very moment regarding crime. Your solution is mall cops for hire. "

My solution is personal responsibility and defense organizations which would have the same power to affect crime that cops have now. However, they would not have the power to aggress against peaceful people because there would be no profit in that for them. Where as now, the cops are incentivized to aggress against people for non-crimes. Please tell me where i said "mall cops", because your a liar in that regard.

"calling them slaves who live in fear. "

I never said they were slaves who lived in fear, i said they were slaves. We are all slaves fight now, if you are in delusion that you are not a slave i encourage you to watch this:

Stefean Molyneux - the history of your enslavement
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

If you can refute that video, please do.

"I've had to keep the peace around the world."

How so? We're you a hired mercenary trigger puller for the state?

"You keep talking in circles without adding anything to the OP you created."

Please see all my previous post where i wrote lengthy replies to you, gave alternatives of how things would work in a free society and explained why you were wrong.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/30/2013 09:06:42 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 09:05:43 MDT Print View

"I think that things are slowly getting better with the existing system."

i think you have strong FAITH that things are getting better but the truth is, things are not getting better. Check out this video to see what i mean:

There will be no economic recovery:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkl3XlEneA

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Not that difficult to comprehend really on 08/30/2013 09:05:55 MDT Print View

Per Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

1a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : disorder

If you and yours want to redefine it then don't place unrealistic expectations that the civilized world and reputable/scholarly sources will accept it.

I've actually had to keep the peace in a lawless society. They were still exhuming mass graves and trying to clean up the land mines when I left. Ah... that's my inner slave talking.

I'm not a prosecutor. I'm a plus sized underwear model.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Not that difficult to comprehend really on 08/30/2013 09:08:22 MDT Print View

In what capacity did you "keep the peace?" Who created those mass graves?

Voluntaryism (or sometimes erroneously voluntarism), is a libertarian philosophy which holds that all forms of human association should be voluntary.[1] The principle most frequently used to support voluntaryism is the non-aggression principle (NAP). It is closely associated with, and often used synonymously with, the anarcho-capitalist and individualist anarchist philosophies.

If you don't want to believe your a slave, thats fine. But there are only two options. Either you own yourself or someone else owns you. Since you can be arrested for ingesting unapproved substances, since you are not allowed to own land, since you are not allowed to travel without a license, since must pay a portion of your earnings(to be decided by the master) to the state, since your "propety" can be seized at any time by the state, since you must submit to the thousands of laws your political overlords create, yes, you are a slave. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can work on being free of the chains. Based on just these facts that i can remember from memory, i'd say someone else is laying claim to your body.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/30/2013 09:12:09 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Not that difficult to comprehend really on 08/30/2013 09:12:12 MDT Print View

"Please see all my previous post where i wrote lengthy replies to you, gave alternatives of how things would work in a free society and explained why you were wrong."

Day dreaming out loud? Yes. Gave alternatives? Yes. Gave examples of your theories working anywhere in the world at any time in history, and I mean from the stone age to 15 minutes ago? No.

If by paid mercenary you mean professional soldier who put himself in harms way to secure a peace in the Balkans then yes. Oh wait... we were in Bosnia for the oil.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Balkans on 08/30/2013 09:14:58 MDT Print View

I don't claim to be an expert on the balkan war, it was before my time. But history has shown that every military intervention the united states has been involved in has been to increase it's own power or benefit the war profiteers. I defer to the most decorated man in military history, general Butler; "War is a racket"

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Balkans on 08/30/2013 09:17:50 MDT Print View

Ike,

I say this with no malice. You can't study politics without studying history. We don't agree and that's fine.