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Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 06:37:23 MDT Print View

Thread moved from: "Harvard proves gun control advocates wrong" since it became a discussion of anarchy/voluntaryism.

My explanation of anarchy/voluntaryism is long winded but that’s because so many of us have been brainwashed by our communities, the state and the state schools that we don’t know what freedom is anymore. Our morality has been corrupted by having two classes of men, those who can commit aggression and those who cannot. So unfortunately, explaining what freedom and liberty are is not a short conversation since I must break through layers of unconscious propaganda to help you understand and even then you may not.

The founding principles of anarchy/voluntaryism are: you own yourself, the zero aggression principle and property rights.

Two podcasts to help you understand what liberty is:
http://www.badquaker.com/archives/2701
http://www.badquaker.com/archives/1729

The zero aggression principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

Voluntaryism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism

As a result of you owning yourself, you own the fruit of your labor thus any person or criminal gang(government) who comes to take your money without your consent is claiming to own you and is initiating force against you. Anarchists believe it is ok to use force in defense of yourself or your rightfully gained property, but not to INITIATE force against peaceful people. That’s the big difference between anarchy and statism, statists believe it is ok to INITIATE force against others because 51% of the VOTERS(not even 51% of the population) said so.

We voluntaryists/anarchists believe it is ALWAYS wrong to use force or aggression to get what you want. We have identified the main problem with the world, the misplaced belief in authority. You see, when I go to my neighbors house and demand a portion of his income, he will laugh and ask me to leave, should I persist he will rightfully defend his property. Yet if a man in a suit from the monopoly gang goes to his house and demands a portion of his income, he must oblige that man and give over whatever he demands. Another example; it is seen as perfectly acceptable for swat teams to go around kicking down peoples doors because they are the “authority” but what if I got a group of friends together and we put on shiny badges we made up, does that give us the right to go around kicking in people’s doors who might have drugs? The problem with the world today is the believe in authority, consider all the soldiers who were “just following orders”.

Anarchists do not believe in worshiping the state. Statism is a religion which worships flags, human sacrifice(soldiers dying for the state and innocents being killed in the process), aggression and violence. We do not need presidents or rulers, if you think you need someone to rule and dominate your existence that is your choice and do not force us to be a part of it. The morality of any system can be measured by your ability to opt-out of it.

Consider that in our current system, in the “land of the free” no one can actually own land. If you have to pay property taxes on something you “own” and those who you pay can take your land for not paying, then you DO NOT own it. They own you and they own your land.

Anarchists/voluntaryists believe that we own ourselves. The state also claims to own your body by using force against you for putting things which the gang/collective disapproves of into it and claiming to own a portion of your labor(they are taking between 40-60% of our labor now when you add in direct taxes, taxes on goods, hidden taxes like taxes the companies who produce your products had to pay to make it are passed on to the consumer). Drug use is a victimless crime, the act of ingesting a substance harms no one else but the one ingesting it, as a result, the state initiates force against peaceful people who chose to alter their consciousness. By claiming the right to initiate force against you for doing what you will with your body, they are claiming they own your body.

Government was not created for the common good or to ensure order, it was created for the use of force. As such, it is funded through theft and its dictates which are called law but are not law are enforced at the barrel of a gun. Should you disobey one of the hundreds of thousands of laws they claim the right to force upon you, you will first be threatened, should you resist you will be caged, should you resist caging you will be killed. Government is nothing more than force.

As a contrast, statists have NO principles. They say the believe in equality, yet they believe in two classes of men, those from the government who can essentially do whatever they want-and are immune from the moral consequences of their actions because of their various legal immunities and they are part of a “collective” and thus not an individual-and the rest of us who must submit to them. Statists claim to believe in freedom, yet they violate its fundamental nature by forcing their will on others and violating their property rights to fund it, they don’t believe in the axiom: “do what you will so long as you don’t harm anyone else or their property”. Statists want to use the gun of the state to force their morality on others for example; the drug war, illegal prostitution, illegal gambling, smoking bans, speeding tickets, owning guns, any initiation of force is immoral.

Voluntaryists/anarchists believe in a free market. If you want to start a business, start one, you don’t need “permission” from “authority” to start a business. Just do it, as long as you don’t violate someone else’s rights. Under the current system you have to ask permission from the master to go fishing, drive a car, own a house, own a gun, start a business, basically everything. That is not freedom, that is slavery. Permitting and regulation are ways that big corporations can prevent little guys from competing with them. Corporations are actually legal constructs of the state, they derive their power from the state and they would not have the kind of power they have now in a free society as they would be unable to use the force of the state to shut out their competition and gain unfair advantages.

Because we believe in a free market, we believe the market can provide all the services people want that the state currently provides. For example; statists always say, “but who will build the roads?” Answer; people will. If there is a need for something, the market will provide it, entrepreneurs and inventors will make it so. The market puts people in space and makes iphones, surely it can find a way to provide roads without the use of force. The same could be said for security services. Security could be provided for through voluntary means, such as security insurance. Dispute resolution companies(private arbitration) would work to resolve disputes among people and businesses as they do now. The difference between the statist society and the free society is that the security companies, road builders, etc actually have an incentive to provide a good product and service because people actually can withdrawl their support. We have an abusive police force now because it is a MONOPOLY. We all learned that monopolies are bad and provide bad service and even kill people in the case of the police because they are immune from prosecution(for the most part) and have no incentive to do a good job since we are FORCED to pay for them. If we could bankrupt them by not paying their salary and they had to compete for our business against other security forces, the drug war would end, so would swat raids and all the other abuses of police because the market would incentivize them to give the people what they want or go out of business. In regard to law and order or any other service that government does a crappy job of providing now, if there is a demand for it, it will be provided for by the market and done so voluntaryily. In Detroit, private police are protecting the people much better than police ever did and they are doing it without initiating force against people. They receive payments from willing customers and are so successful they are able to protect the poor people for free. They just protect life and property, they are not going around drug busting people so they can get more fedgov money.

The voluntaryist knows that the force of government trying to centrally plan things is contrary to human action and the human will. Central planning just does not work, spontaneous order works and the market works. "The state is based on socialism and will eventually collapse, it is the worlds longest running ponzi scheme." -Ben Stone

Governments provide nothing that they didn't steal from someone else first. Stealing is immoral, therefore government is immoral.

“BUT WHO WILL BUILD THE ROADS?!?!?!” answered:
http://www.badquaker.com/archives/2711

In a voluntary society, if you wanted to start a socialist/communist/whatever society with other people that would be fine, go ahead have your experiment as long as noone is FORCED to be a part of it and people who don’t want to participate are left alone-their property rights un-violated. Of course socialism/communism would fail since it has no price mechanism as history has demonstrated, but you may have your experiment anyway. In a voluntary society you can do whatever you want so long as you don’t commit aggression against another. Again, the main points to remember are that you own yourself(and all the results of this realization), property rights and the zero-aggression principle.

It should be noted that anarchy/voluntaryism IS NOT A SYSTEM. There is no anarchy president or voluntary ruler. We do not believe in systems, we believe in freedom, liberty and free markets. We believe that systems are unnecessary and that the market/nature/god(whatever you want to call it) will provide everything we need and do so more efficiently than any government ever could and most importantly without using force, fraud, coercion or violence.

We are all slaves now, just because you think your free doesn’t mean you are. There is no such thing as half-free, your either free or you’re a slave and we are most definitely slaves.

Here is a good essay on what anarchy is:
http://www.badquaker.com/archives/2698

Essentialy all anarchists/voluntaryists are saying is, lets do what we learned in kindergarden. Lets not steal, lets not threaten, lets not hit each other. Somehow all of that applies to us as individuals but not the collective state.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 07:11:08 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Anarchy as a sustainable methodology for everyone on the globe. on 08/29/2013 06:48:06 MDT Print View

Podcasts and Wikipedia

And those who don't play well with others

Wait for it...

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Quotes on 08/29/2013 07:09:17 MDT Print View

"A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years."
-Lysander Spooner

"It is curious that people tend to regard governmet as a quasi divine selfless santa cluas organization, government was constructed neither for ability nor the exercise of loving care. Governmnet was built for the use of force." -Murray Rothbard

“Every man has freedom to do all that he wills provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man.” –Herbert Spencer

“The state never intentionally confronts a mans senses intellectual or moral, but only his body-his senses, it is not armed with superior wit or honesty but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced, I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” – Henry David Thoreau

"If any man's money can be taken by a so-called government, without his own personal consent, all his other rights are taken with it; for with his money the government can, and will, hire soldiers to stand over him, compel him to submit to its arbitrary will, and kill him if he resists."
-Lysander Spooner

"If taxation without consent is robbery, the United States government has never had, has not now, and is never likely to have, a single honest dollar in its treasury. If taxation without consent is not robbery, then any band of robbers have only to declare themselves a government, and all their robberies are legalized."
Lysander Spooner

"If history could teach us anything, it would be that private property is inextricably linked with civilization."
Ludwig von Mises

"Government means always coercion and compulsion and is by necesseity the opposite of liberty." -Ludwig Von Mises

"Manufacturing and commercial monopolies owe their origin not to a tendency imminent in a capitalist economy but to governmental interventionist policy directed against free trade and laissez faire."
Ludwig von Mises

"If you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band, and all of the libertarian attitudes will logically fall into place."
Murray Rothbard

"Libertarians regard the state as the Supreme, the eternal, the best organized aggressor against the persons and property of the mass of the public. All states everywhere, whether democratic, dictatorial, or monarchical, whether red, white, blue or brown."
Murray Rothbard

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Anarchy as a sustainable methodology for everyone on the globe. on 08/29/2013 07:10:25 MDT Print View

Playing well with others means stealing and using force?

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Discounting on 08/29/2013 07:13:42 MDT Print View

What is your beef with podcasts and wikipedia? Bad Quaker is the learned professor of the liberty movement-like a Jeffery Tucker for example. Whats your problem with wiki pedia?

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 07:18:26 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Anarchy as a sustainable methodology for everyone on the globe. on 08/29/2013 07:16:12 MDT Print View

Ike.
You will be crucified.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
kat on 08/29/2013 07:20:26 MDT Print View

Bring it on. They will say corporations(government legal creations) will take over, the roads will not get built,chaos will ensue(nevermind the fact that government has killed hundreds of millions of people-democide and is currently getting ready to kill more in syra, i call that chaos), they will say we will have no law(yet government is not bound to its own laws, truly we are living in a lawless society RIGHT NOW), they will say the poor will not be fed. What other fallacious things can they say? I've heard them all before.let them

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 07:35:41 MDT.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
let them stay away on 08/29/2013 08:22:19 MDT Print View

I am only here to point out to any unfortunate souls who clicked on this thread that the strain of anarchism being described here is not the only one, a point that may be obscured by the OP's evangelizing for his particular brand.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Strains on 08/29/2013 08:34:17 MDT Print View

Any consistent anarchist philosophy must have as its foundation the rejection of the initiation of force. Of course there is anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-socialism, anarchi-primitivism, but they must have as their foundation the rejection of the initiation of force(the state) otherwise they are not anarchism in my opinion. As i said before, if you want to VOLUNTARILY form a socialist community and voluntarily fund it, thats fine. But people who live in your geographic region who do not agree with you, you cannot take their property and force them into your system that is not anarchy that is slavery. It would be more accurate to call me a voluntaryist-someone who believes that all human interaction should be voluntary than an anarchist, even though essentially they are the same.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 08:54:50 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 08:55:00 MDT Print View

Theoretically, if we had anarchy like you defined, everything would be great

Similarly, communism is theoretically utopian - each person produces what they can and takes what they need

In reality, given that people are people, your system will never work

For one, if you think that you can defend yourself with your guns, you're delusional. Take Waco Texas as an example. Or the Oklahoma City bomber.

For another, you produce nothing by yourself. And your waste damages other people. We are more productive banding together. Without government, we'de have... anarchy : )

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 09:16:03 MDT Print View

"Similarly, communism is theoretically utopian - each person produces what they can and takes what they need"

I find the initiation of force hardly utopian. Communism is an economic disaster and not fixable.

"In reality, given that people are people, your system will never work"

Given that people are people, they should all be equal. Noone should have a badge that grants them extra rights or the ability to scribble words on paper and use guns to force their will on others. A system which gives god-like power to one group is exactly why we cannot have a state.

"For one, if you think that you can defend yourself with your guns, you're delusional. Take Waco Texas as an example. Or the Oklahoma City bomber."

I never said i could defend myself from a state. I never said i wanted to use aggression, everything i said was against the initiation of force. I don't see how the oklahoma city bomber has anything to do with defending yourself. Waco is proof that the government is a criminal gang, even if it was true the leader of that group may have harmed people(which i do not believe), it would not justify the slaughter of innocents. Noone is advocating a violent revolution here. Besides, as an individualist i can only speak for myself not other voluntaryists/anarchists. I would say that violent revolution WILL NEVER work and even if you threw out one gang of thugs and replaced them with another, the power would corrupt the new gang as well and we would be back where we started. A peaceful revolution of the ideas of freedom and liberty that REDUCES THE DEMAND FOR A STATE is what is needed. When the demand for the state is gone, people will simply ignore it and stop funding it until it dies. The state maintains the demand for itself by monopolozing certain industries like roads, fire protection or security. It then brainwashes children in schools to believe only the state could provide these services and it crushes their creativity. Once people see that the market can provide all the services government provides-better, more efficiently, cheaper and at a higher quality, the demand for the state will cease. But that is not allowed to happen, If i wanted to start my own police force to compete against the monopoly gang, i would be shut down.

"For another, you produce nothing by yourself."

I dont understand how you can say i produce nothing by myself? I create value for my employer every day i show up and seek to improve efficiency and productivity. Lots of people produce lots of things, i dont see how you can say individuals cannot produce something for themselves.

"And your waste damages other people."

My waste damages others? Thats why we have trash disposal services which could be done just fine by private companies, we don't need a monopoly of violence to take the trash out.

"We are more productive banding together."

I have no problem with that, we can voluntarily band together. As long as I am not forced to band together, there is no issue. Consider Kroger, people voluntarily band together to bring you food from all around the world and it works. No one is aggressed against, no one's property violated. Voluntarily, people can band together to do amazing things-like space travel and cellular technology, we don't need force to create prosperity.

"Without government, we'de have... anarchy : )"

You've been taught that anarchy is chaos, but in fact government is chaos. Who started all the wars? Who killed all the victims of war? Who is banging the war drums now as we speak? When some people have the ability to create law, they create more and more laws, they criminalize their opposition and they dominate. They do not obey their own laws. They murder, steal, rape and pillage other countries because some of the voting population believes they have the legitimate authority to do so. Criminal gangs are illegitimate no matter their uniform. What if los zetas showed up on your block and said you owe them money and everyone else on your block owes them money for this or that service. People would fight back. The reason people dont fight back against the state is because they believe it to be legitimate, for that to change, the state must be stripped of legitimacy. That stripping is happening now at a very fast rate and will continue into the future thanks to the free flow of information called the internet. Government is lawless, it does what it will when it wills. When it gets caught doing something wrong and gets held accountable(very rare since it investigates itself and grants itself immunities), then it reimburses the victim with stolen money. There is no accountability in government. With government you have created a group of people, set apart from everyone else who can steal, kill, use force at will and enslave others. If i as an individual went around doing what government does, i'd be elminated pretty quickly.


statism

as

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 09:34:48 MDT.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 09:47:13 MDT Print View

Ike, I have anarchist sympathies but frankly you are coming off as a loony toon. What are you hoping to achieve here?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 10:01:14 MDT Print View

"Communism is an economic disaster and not fixable."

Take religious or "hippy" communes. Many work quite well, at least for a while. People produce what they can and take what they need.

But, when you scale up, it doesn't work because people are greedy and lazy.

And the soviet union and communist China are not good because you are rewarded/punished by being loyal/disloyal to the party which has nothing to do with theoretical communism.


"I dont understand how you can say i produce nothing by myself? I create value for my employer every day i show up and seek to improve efficiency and productivity. Lots of people produce lots of things, i dont see how you can say individuals cannot produce something for themselves."

To simplify, let's say you were a homesteader. You produce food from dirt, air, and rain. Why are you entitled to that raw material? And you're profitting from millions of years of evolution - biological and learning how to do things. What entitles you to utilize that? Maybe someone else thinks you took their land or ideas. Is it just whoever has the biggest weapons gets to decide? Even libertarians think there should be a government to mediate disputes.


"My waste damages others? Thats why we have trash disposal services which could be done just fine by private companies, we don't need a monopoly of violence to take the trash out."

You produce CO2. There are so many billions of us that the total CO2 produced is becoming a problem. We need to band together and agree to quit removing the CO2 from the ground where it's sequestered. Your CO2, along with everyone else's, will result in flooding somebody in Bangladesh. That Bangladeshi can't take his gun and shoot everyone to get them to quit.


Most of your base ideas I agree with, like the government shouldn't make wars or prevent people from taking drugs or prohibit someone from owning a gun. But your prescription will never work.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Accomplish on 08/29/2013 10:09:08 MDT Print View

As I see it, backpackers and long distance hikers have an independent streak to them-perhaps more than the average person. They are fertile ground, I'm walking around throwing handfuls of liberty seed because the time and place are right. The state is losing legitimacy faster than ever before, voluntarysists, libertarians(not the political variety), and anarchists are gaining ground. State media is collapsing and the alternative web based media is rising(freedom Feens, free talk live, Stefan molyneux, bad Quaker, and so many ior her voices). Now would seem the perfect time to spread seed as far as I can. The statists who are logical and honest with themselves will eventually be unable to continue to be statists due to the dissonance in their beliefs. I was not always an anarchist, first i was a religious statist(indoctrinated into it), then a small government republican, then a liberal, for a bit a socialist, now finally, with reason and critical thinking I have arrive at the moral and logically consistent position of anarchy/a voluntary society. If I can drop a few seeds here and there, they may not sprout at first but if the statist is honest, they will bother him/her overtime until they renounce their statism. The time is other, besides, I"be seen other anarchists, ancaps and voluntarysists on bpl before.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 10:22:24 MDT Print View

To simplify, let's say you were a homesteader. You produce food from dirt, air, and rain. Why are you entitled to that raw material? And you're profitting from millions of years of evolution - biological and learning how to do things. What entitles you to utilize that? Maybe someone else thinks you took their land or ideas. Is it just whoever has the biggest weapons gets to decide? Even libertarians think there should be a government to mediate disputes.

libertarians who think there should be a government are not libertarians, they are minarchists. We don't need a government to settle disputes, thats what private property and dispute resolution organizations are for. If there is a demand for dispute resolution, the market will provide it.

I knew you were going to go the route of no-one owns anything and talk about air and minerals. I am entitled to what i mix my labor with. If there is un-owned land in the desert and I go there and install a water collection device and being setting up a house. I have mixed my labor with this previously unowned land and i now own it. IF as you say, an individual cannot own land, how can a collective? Can an individual delegate rights to a collective that the individual him/herself does not have? How does that magic work?

"You produce CO2. There are so many billions of us that the total CO2 produced is becoming a problem. We need to band together and agree to quit removing the CO2 from the ground where it's sequestered. Your CO2, along with everyone else's, will result in flooding somebody in Bangladesh. That Bangladeshi can't take his gun and shoot everyone to get them to quit."

So somehow breathing is a sin? The environmental movement is largely and anti-human anti-male movement, but i wont get into that. If you want to band together to remove CO2, maybe you can PERSUADE people with your knowledge to quit producing so much but using the state to FORCE people and then funding your force with stolen money is immoral and violent. Besides, i'm on the fence about this whole CO2 thing based on recent revelations in the scientific community, i'm loathe to believe anything from scientific authorities given the what we call science today is hardly science but more a competition for stolen government loot called grant money.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the state, and that's fine given as you are like most people in that regard. when I talk about the state using the gun and using force, I am not referring to individuals. If the mans property was damaged by say a factory next to his home, he could prove that in dispute resolution and it would be easy to do so. Proving that my CO2 thousands of miles away caused a flood in Bangladesh is impossible to prove and would never stand up to scrutiny in a dispute.

"Most of your base ideas I agree with, like the government shouldn't make wars or prevent people from taking drugs or prohibit someone from owning a gun. But your prescription will never work."

Over time as demand for government declines and if entrepreneurs and private folk were allowed to compete with government, you would see how it would work. Just because your creativity has been so stunted by the schools and those around you and you are unable to imagine a world where free people get things done without a government does not mean it is not possible. Human creativity is not limited by your imagination.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Accomplish on 08/29/2013 10:31:40 MDT Print View

"The state is losing legitimacy faster than ever before, voluntarysists, libertarians(not the political variety), and anarchists are gaining ground. State media is collapsing and the alternative web based media is rising..."

I think Huxley and Orwell better described the direction we're going

I think voluntarysists, libertarians(not the political variety), and anarchists are regarded as fringe and loony

But who knows, some ideas are regarded as loony but later become accepted. Like the idea that bacteria cause ulcers was crazy talk but has now become accepted. Or plate techtonics.

Yuri R
(Yazon) - F
Unfortunately for you on 08/29/2013 10:35:43 MDT Print View

You would need to invent a country in order for your principles to be true.

When you say that government can't take your money (i assume you are talking about taxes), don't forget that from the day when you were born - you, inside your mother, had to drive to a hospital on a nicely paved road. To a hospital that with or without insurance would not refuse to assist in labor, that you live in a land where your neighbor can't dump mercury out into your water supply just because he is bored... etc.

All of this requires money and people have agreed to participate in a system where they trade taxes/personal freedoms for a common sets of rules applied to everyone.

You don't have to follow those rules - you are welcome to live in a territory that has no such rules or to start your own country/movement. I just doubt you will find enough supporters. And it is not because your ideas are not appealing to some degree, but because they would not stand up to the human nature on a large scale. You would be right back to the same ideas of rule of majority as soon as people start to act on their less popular desires.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 10:41:41 MDT Print View

"So somehow breathing is a sin? ... maybe you can PERSUADE people with your knowledge to quit producing so much but using the state to FORCE people..."

No, removing CO2 from the ground and releasing it to the atmosphere is a sin.

But, let's say we all agree taking oil out of the ground and burning it produces CO2 which effects the planet as a whole.

An individual can burn oil and it won't make any difference - too small a quantitiy.

You have to get everyone to quit doing it.

You need a government to enforce this "with guns" or we'll slowly pollute the earth and eventually those people in Bangladesh (and Florida and Manhattan) will just have to move somewhere else and the increased hurricane intensity will wreak havok on many areas and all the timbered areas around where I live will become plains (or whatever the effect will be, we don't really know)

And the same principal applies to many other aspects of civilization

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Unfortunately for you on 08/29/2013 10:49:37 MDT Print View

"You would need to invent a country in order for your principles to be true."

No i dont, when people stop worshipping states and believing in authority, then my principles will be true.

"When you say that government can't take your money (i assume you are talking about taxes), don't forget that from the day when you were born - you, inside your mother, had to drive to a hospital on a nicely paved road. To a hospital that with or without insurance would not refuse to assist in labor, that you live in a land where your neighbor can't dump mercury out into your water supply just because he is bored... etc."

So i have no to drive on roads that i was stolen from to pay for, my mother was stolen from to pay for, her mother was stolen from to pay for and everything all my familiar relations connect to was stolen from to pay for?

I dont understand the second portion of your comment, You seem to be rambling. Property rights resolves pollution, its precisely because property rights have been so muttled in a statist society that pollution is a problem. People care for things they own, then things are not owned by individuals, they fall into disrepair and become trashy, this is called the tragedy of the commons. Thats why we have a massive plastic island the size of texas in the ocean.

"You don't have to follow those rules - you are welcome to live in a territory that has no such rules or to start your own country/movement. I just doubt you will find enough supporters. And it is not because your ideas are not appealing to some degree, but because they would not stand up to the human nature on a large scale. You would be right back to the same ideas of rule of majority as soon as people start to act on their less popular desires."

So essentially you are saying, if you dont like it, GET OUT and that is more an admission of intellectual defeat than an argument.

You don't know your a slave. Harriet Tubman said she cOuld have freed thousands more slaves if only they knew they were slaves. There are only two options, either you own yourself or someone else owns you-which is it?

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 11:24:45 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
gubmint on 08/29/2013 10:53:37 MDT Print View

You need a government to enforce this "with guns" or we'll slowly pollute the earth and eventually those people in Bangladesh (and Florida and Manhattan) will just have to move somewhere else and the increased hurricane intensity will wreak havok on many areas and all the timbered areas around where I live will become plains (or whatever the effect will be, we don't really know)"

So just a little bit of evil is ok? Is it ok if i rob you "just a little bit", how about a punch in the nose-"not hard enough to break it" but just hard enough to make me feel better, is that ok? You are advocating evil. The idea that somehow government prevents pollution is laughable, governments are the largest polluters on the planet-any idea what kind of disasters war produces? Corporations pollute as well, but corporations are state-created entities that would not exist in a free market anyway, so their pollution is largely due to the government as well. The idea that government someone can clean pollution is laughable at best, government keeps most of the money it takes in to benefit itself and its friends. You are under the illusion that government exists to make the world a better place and help people, that is called delusion, the truth is that it exists to enrich itself and its benefactors. Even if you created an anti-pollution law, lets say you wrote it. That law would go through lots of burecratic nonsense before it ever got passed and would hardly resemble your intitial offering. Then it would be enforced not by you, but by people you've never met. See why this doesn't work?

Who are you to say that you know what's best for nature? Are you or a other central planners so smart as tO know how many spotted hairy butt owls or certain forests should exist? Why te hate for man? Is man not natural? Humans have survived being exterminated by the brutal force you call nature through technology, I appreciate this because I would not exist without it nor would you.

Did you know scientists developed the solution to C02 already? I remember reading about 80 or maybe 800 million dollar project that involved putting these devices in the ocean that would convert co2. That kind of money is nothing for governments, so why haven't they done it? Because its not about the environment, it's about domination and money. As long as you labor under the delusion that they care about you or anyone else you can never see the state for what it is.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 11:12:36 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 11:17:02 MDT Print View

Sounds like you are a fan of the Hobbesian natural state where the life of man is poor, nasty, brutish, and short, spent in continual fear of death, abuse, and assault.

But at least we would be absolutely free.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 11:29:51 MDT Print View

So your excuse for evil is that life is brutal and tough? I hardly agree that life would be so without a criminal gang robbing everyone every day of their lives. Imagine how much richer everyone would be with 50-75% more money, because that's how much is stolen from them now.

You are putting forth a false dichotomy, a logical fallacy. You are saying that without a state it can only be worse, you are saying there are no other options. I think monopolies provide poor service and don't care for their customers, do you think governments are the only organizations that could provide things like food for the poor or security? All of these things can be provided by the market easily. I don't think having rulers and monopolies and using violence is a good way to organize society.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Organizing on 08/29/2013 11:32:20 MDT Print View

I do not beliee that anyone or any organization is capable or suitable to organize the world, like everything else in nature, it spontaneously would order itself if given the chance. The force I call the market would handle that just fine without a monopoly of force. How arrogant to think you or some "great man" issmarter than nature/god/the market?

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 11:41:44 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 12:21:16 MDT Print View

The mafia would control the roads by sundown.

Taxes on transporting goods would still be paid, with cash, life, or goods as the road owners see fit.

Anarchy is like philosophy without all the thinking.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Fallacies on 08/29/2013 12:27:38 MDT Print View

Your mind is like one logical fallacy after another, without thinking.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Response on 08/29/2013 12:32:16 MDT Print View

But I will answer anyway, people would resist the mafia because they are clearly viewed as criminals whereas the state has an air of authority to it-even though it is illegitimate. So no, the mafia would not take over the roads. We already have a mafia that has taken over the roads and does not allow competition, it is called the government.

"Taxes on transporting goods would still be paid, with cash, life, or goods as the road owners see fit."

Taxes would be paid to who in the absence of a state? How do you know goods would even be transported on roads and not by some other means if the market for technology was completely open in the future and not held back by the state? I doubt we would be driving cars right now if the state did not exist, i think we would have far more advanced technology.

You are saying that you know exactly what will happen in the future, that's pretty bOld of you. In a free market of someone provides a bad service, you can reject their service and tart your own competing service. In our current system the mafia controlled the roads and no one can compete with them, they kill you if you resist, sounds exactly like the system you are warning against.

"anarchy is philosophy without thinking"
Another fallacy that speaks for itself.

BUT WHO WILL BUILD THE ROADSS?? Watch the video i linked earlier about who will build the roads. What you are saying is essentially the same as someone living in the era of chattel slavery and saying; "but who will pick the cotton without the slaves?" not foreseeing the invention of the cotton gin. We will FIND a way to make it work, I am saying that slavery is wrong and should be abolished. You, the one advocating for it has the prove why we should be enslaved and not free.

Are you going to address my points or just ignore them and spout more logical fallacies and reasons why things can't be done without the state. Clearly you don't want to have a conversation, you just want to make statements.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 13:21:03 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
What its like on 08/29/2013 12:51:11 MDT Print View

chess

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 12:53:23 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 13:24:04 MDT Print View

As great as anarchy sounds.

I'd rather pay taxes into a common pool to keep myself in a stable, secure environment. Having secured transportation and access to secured markets seems like it offers a better life on average than having to raise my own security force.

It doesn't matter if that common pool goes to a king, lord,boss, government, or general as long as they hold up their end of the deal, I'll be safer and more successful.

Yep. I would rather trade anarchist freedom to be part of a group that mitigates risk and provide more chances to be successful, and thus more chances to be happy.

You call it enslavement, but the power of the tax collector rests on them upholding their end of the contract. while they are upholding their end of the deal, its a mutually beneficial, consensual arrangement that I would enter into willingly, which is quite different than slavery. Only when they fail to provide the security, stability, and enhanced chance of success does it become robbery or enslavement.

Edited by redmonk on 08/29/2013 13:45:33 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 13:53:56 MDT Print View

"The idea that somehow government prevents pollution is laughable, governments are the largest polluters on the planet-any idea what kind of disasters war produces?"

Some truth to that.

But, the CAFE standards that government has imposed on automobile makers has resulted in improved fuel economy and thus less pollution.

I remember living in L.A. in 1970s. Air pollution was much worse. Government imposed rules. Now pollution is better.

There's a mathamatical or logical problem that most people have to agree to reduce pollution even though the amount of pollution produced by an individual is insignificant. You need a "gubmint" to make everyone comply. There are a lot of problems like that.


"So just a little bit of evil is ok? Is it ok if i rob you "just a little bit", how about a punch in the nose-"not hard enough to break it" but just hard enough to make me feel better, is that ok?"

Say what??? Now you're just getting loony : )

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 14:02:19 MDT Print View

"I'd rather pay taxes into a common pool to keep myself in a stable, secure environment. Having secured transportation and access to secured markets seems like it offers a better life on average than having to raise my own security force.

Noone siad you had to raise your own security force, you could do like they do in detroit now, pay a few bucks a month to private security to protect you. That's fine if you'd rather pay taxes and be a slave than use a voluntary solution to transportation, but i dont want to so don't force me to, let me opt out.

"It doesn't matter if that common pool goes to a king, lord,boss, government, or general as long as they hold up their end of the deal, I'll be safer and more successful."

There is no deal, and to think you would trust politicans gave me a chuckle. Slave masters from the days of chattle slavery would provide their slaves certain freedoms because it made them more productive, the state provides us certain benefits because it makes us more productive, we produce more which in turn means they can TAKE more. That's it.

"You call it enslavement, but the power of the tax collector rests on them upholding their end of the contract. while they are upholding their end of the deal, its a mutually beneficial, consensual arrangement that I would enter into willingly, which is quite different than slavery. Only when they fail to provide the security, stability, and enhanced chance of success does it become robbery or enslavement."

I call it enslavement because thats exactly what it is, enslavement. You either own yourself and thus the product of your labor or you someone else does. It's that simple.

What contract? Show me a contract i signed to agree to be ruled by politicians and a government. A contract which changes overtime without the consent of the signer is void, as is a contract which never existed(in this case).

You didn't enter into this contract willingly since there never was a contract to begin with, and if you resist you will be forced into it. That it not a legal contract in any sense of the word.

Do you really think the government provides security, better opportunities and economic stability? The government provides nothing which they first did not steal from someone else, either directly or indirectly(inflation and borrowing).
"Yep. I would rather trade anarchist freedom to be part of a group that mitigates risk and provide more chances to be successful, and thus more chances to be happy. "

More chances to be successful? I dont see how having barriers to entry that the state erects at the behest of corporations gives your more chances to be successful. I don't see how having 50%-75% less money makes you more likely to be succuessful or happy. I dont see how being thrown in jail or killed for purusing your happiness doing activities that the state made illegal but hurt noone makes you more happy.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 14:13:23 MDT Print View

"But, the CAFE standards that government has imposed on automobile makers has resulted in improved fuel economy and thus less pollution.

I remember living in L.A. in 1970s. Air pollution was much worse. Government imposed rules. Now pollution is better."

The CAFE standards serve the purpose that all regulations do, to create revenue for the state and to assist big corporations in keeping start ups and their competition out of the market. How many new car companies can you name?

The money for this new law as well as the bureaucracies is stolen money. Is it ok to rob a bank if you give half the money to charity?

Again, the market can handle this. Without a gun at their disposal, car companies would have long ago had to change their tune to be more in line with peoples demands for fuel efficient or completely electric cars. It is precisely because of the gun in the room that they are able to avoid changing, we have had advanced car tech for decades now and all we have to show for it is a few hybrids and a few electrics.

"Say what??? Now you're just getting loony : )"

You were excusing the existence of the state, saying that it was a necessary evil(if i remember correctly). Therefore it is logical to conclude from that assertion that it's ok to punch you in the face just a little because it's necessary, or its ok to steal from you just a little because its necessary. I'm trying to get you to see the logical issues with that position, once you say a little bit of evil is necessary, all else that is evil flows from that. Once you give one group of men the power to take a little and violate property rights and the non aggression principle, there will be no end to their abuses given time and the accumulation of stolen loot.

"If any man's money can be taken by a so-called government, without his own personal consent, all his other rights are taken with it; for with his money the government can, and will, hire soldiers to stand over him, compel him to submit to its arbitrary will, and kill him if he resists."
Lysander Spooner

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 14:22:37 MDT Print View

But who will build the roads?
a

Edited by justin_baker on 08/29/2013 14:23:52 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 14:36:51 MDT Print View

"You were excusing the existence of the state, saying that it was a necessary evil(if i remember correctly)."

No, I was saying that there are certain problems that you have to get everyone to comply, even though it's not in their individual best interest

As long as every one else drives a less polluting car, it doesn't make any difference what I drive, I may as well drive a cheaper, more polluting car

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 14:45:47 MDT Print View

Seven new companies are getting into the auto market.

Coda, wheego, Tesla, Tango, BYD,GEM, SABA, plus Fisker, Think, and Venturi are expanding into the US market.

How many new companies are successful with an anarchist employment arrangement ?

Edited by redmonk on 08/29/2013 14:47:09 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 14:58:49 MDT Print View

"No, I was saying that there are certain problems that you have to get everyone to comply, even though it's not in their individual best interest"

So because there are certain problems its ok to have some evil? These problems are so complex and so intricate that only the benevolent politician overlords could solve them. So again, your saying we have to have some evil to solver certain problems because otherwise we would not be able to solve them. Without pointing guns at each other, there is no way we can solve pollution issues.

I would argue that government is antithetical to a clean environment because it destroys property rights. Do you go around cleaning other peoples yards? Precisely because government property is not owned by an individual, noone is responsbile for its caretaking. Try to plant a garden on government owned land, watch what happens, you just might get swatted. The only way to take care of the environment is with the incentive of suing, if somone owns land that someone(or a company) pollutes, then the polluter can be sued. If the land is owned or quasi-owned by a governmnet in the way it distorts property rights, there is noone to sue for damages.

The state nukes the planet, destroys massive amounts of resources in war, pollutes with war, and PROTECTS CORPORATION FROM LIABILITY for thier pollution. In a free market where people actually had property rights, corporations would be held responsible, they wouldn't have the gun of the state to protect them from liability-such as with government contracts.

In a free market where prices are not manipulated, spontaneous market structures provide local-level communication to supply and demand networks, providing people with a better understanding of which resources are in short supply FAR better than any centralized plan would. Simply due to the fact that the centralized planned version of life will never be as responsive or accurate as the spontaneous-based on immediate market needs and demands version of life would be. The market would provide automatic incentives for the protection of resources, because if i was a producer i would want to ensure my resource remains. Take a food product that is banned from private production, say bald eagle feet(as a hypothetical). Say i am a producer of bald eagle feet, does it benefit me to go out and catch all the bald eagles or build a structure and start producing my own bald eagles? Would it benefit me to catch so many bald eagles that there are no more left? Of course not, I want to maintain my supply and safeguarding it is the best way to do that. The market has natural incentives for ecological protections and resource management.

"As long as every one else drives a less polluting car, it doesn't make any difference what I drive, I may as well drive a cheaper, more polluting car"

You do realize that cars like the prius cause way more damage to the environment because of the production methods that go into making them than do typical cars? Drive any car you want, driving a car is not an act of aggression.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 15:01:22 MDT Print View

And they all must enter the market with government permission. I would say they are entering because of the massive demand for better cars, how long have people been clamoring for more fuel efficient cars and we keep getting the same crap. I wonder which government skids they had to grease to get into the market. If they are being let in it is because the state sees some benefit(more stolen loot) to them getting in, the only time they would allow competition is if it would benefit them in some way. It is not in their interest to do so. Just wait, if they start cutting to deeply into the pockets of the established fascist corporations, some lobbyist will introduce a law to slow them down or shut them down. Just like those taxi companies in chicago and new york, i can't remember their names.

"How many new companies are successful with an anarchist employment arrangement ?"

I don't know what this means. There would be no barriers to entry other than natural ones in an anarchist society-like cost, R&D, etc. There would also be no intellectual property so that would remove a huge barrier.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 15:03:39 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
keep it goin on 08/29/2013 15:20:52 MDT Print View

1


2

3

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 15:24:18 MDT Print View

"So because there are certain problems its ok to have some evil?..."

No, there are some problems that require making everyone comply. That is not evil. Doing nothing is evil.


"if somone owns land that someone(or a company) pollutes, then the polluter can be sued"

yeah, at the government court


"You do realize that cars like the prius cause way more damage to the environment because of the production methods that go into making them than do typical cars? Drive any car you want, driving a car is not an act of aggression."

Cars, on average, have better fuel economy because of government standard. This is a good thing.


You and I agree that big companies and super wealthy people have bought the government which then does immoral things. Your solution is to get rid of government. Mine is for people to demand the government listen to them instead. Sort of like what happened in 1930s. I argue that government subsidized eduaction from 1940 to 1990 (or whatever) resulted in all this high tech stuff which I think is a good thing.


hmmm - misspelling education doesn't make my point

Edited by retiredjerry on 08/29/2013 15:28:17 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 15:59:04 MDT Print View

"No, there are some problems that require making everyone comply. That is not evil. Doing nothing is evil."

Why do you want to make everyone comply with what you or a group of people want? Shouldn't everyone be free to live as they see fit. Why should they comply with what you want? Seems kind of controlling of you.

How can you do evil by doing nothing? DOING EVIL implies action, what you said makes no sense.

I have pointed out to you repeatedly why government is evil, it takes by force against an individuals will then forces it's arbitrary will upon peaceful people. I have given you market solutions to pollution(the ocean thingys), i have shown you why government is the biggest polluter, i have shown you why the government has no incentive to care about pollution, i have discussed why property rights are the only way to prevent pollution or have a penalty for it, yet you still just parrot the same response. What is the point of me offering solutions if you just ignore them and say that we need government. Clearly this is some kind of mental block for you, until you want to have a conversation and actually discuss things i dont see the point in responding to you. What if you told me the solution to darkness is to buy lightbulbs and install them in your house, and i said but without government i cannot get lightbulbs. And i said that over and over and over. What would you think of me?

"yeah, at the government court"

Private dispute resolution organizations can do that without the government. Yes i know its hard to believe, but courts actually exist RIGHT NOW that are private.

"ars, on average, have better fuel economy because of government standard. This is a good thing."

The market was demanding better standards way before the government ever did anything about it. The governmnet did the same thing with the civil rights movement, the movement sprung up organically from the grass roots and people changed society, then the government ran infront of the parade and said: "LOOK WHAT WE DID, SEE THE SYSTEM WORKS."

Again, using stolen money and FORCE to change society is no worthy change at all and it is immoral. Stealing is immoral period, force is immoral period, there is no time when that is not true. I would also argue that changes created as a result of the use of force are a sort of false-accomplishment and not a reflection of people changing organically of its their own accord.

"You and I agree that big companies and super wealthy people have bought the government which then does immoral things. Your solution is to get rid of government. Mine is for people to demand the government listen to them instead. Sort of like what happened in 1930s. I argue that government subsidized eduaction from 1940 to 1990 (or whatever) resulted in all this high tech stuff which I think is a good thing."

You actually think politicians REPRESENT you? You think they care what lies they sell to people to get elected? Didn't barack obama run on transparency and peace? Now we see the opposite. The idea that government represents you is obviously false, if you don't want to believe that it's because you have some emotional connection to the issue.

How can you demand that the person using force and violence against you listen to you? That's like getting beat by a robber and screaming: "hey listen to me" "hey listen to me". The government is a monopoly of FORCE, they could care less what the people have to say.

So now the government is responsible for technology...people are responsible for technology. Government education is the surest way to create a submissive population just smart enough to run the factories and keep voting without thinking too much.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 16:03:17 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 16:13:47 MDT Print View

"Why do you want to make everyone comply with what you or a group of people want? Shouldn't everyone be free to live as they see fit. Why should they comply with what you want?"

The resources of the planet are finite. Just letting people do what they please will result in a degraded planet adversly affecting me and my relations and friends. Recognizing that and doing nothing is evil.


"So now the government is responsible for technology..."

Yeah!

Computers and integrated circuits were developed to calculate artillery tables and break codes during and after WWII.

The GI bill paid for millions education.

I got my education in 1960s and 1970s. Heavily government subsidized.

If there wern't government programs we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 16:22:23 MDT Print View

"The resources of the planet are finite. Just letting people do what they please will result in a degraded planet adversly affecting me and my relations and friends. Recognizing that and doing nothing is evil."

So because the resources of the planet are finite, we've got to have an oranization which has no stake in the matter, take responsibility of ALL the resources to safe guard them.

"Just letting people do what they please will result in a degraded planet adversly affecting me and my relations and friends."

You dont know that. You are commiting the fallacy of false dichotomy, you are saying it can only be one way or the other and there can be no other third way or other options. I have repeatedly pointed out alternatives to force and violence to you and you have ignored all of them.

"Computers and integrated circuits were developed to calculate artillery tables and break codes during and after WWII."

Wrong, Konrad Zuse invented the first computer. It was invented by a man not a faceless government that exists only in the minds of its believers. All things have been invented by men not states, states are religions and like other religions, they exist in the minds of their followers. Individuals do things, government is not embodied.

"The GI bill paid for millions education."

Not without first stealing the money from someone else who could have used it for their education. If contracts were made to soldiers, i am sympathetic of those contracts but they were still illegitimate since no one can make a contract with someone elses property as the payment.

"I got my education in 1960s and 1970s. Heavily government subsidized."

i can tell.

"If there wern't government programs we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now."
False dichotomy fallacy, you don't know that.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 16:25:42 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Issue on 08/29/2013 16:36:19 MDT Print View

I get your issue, everyone has one or two issues they are holding on to that they think only a violent monopoly could provide. You think without a state, land you cherish would be ruined and this is a very important issue to you.

I can tell you for certain, if you truly think that land should be protected, then I am sure lots of other people do as well. If there is a market demand for the land to be prOtected it will. You should explore voluntary ways of getting it protected, like raising fund and buying it, that way it is owned. I'm sure environmentalist billionaires would be happy to buy land to preserve it, millions of contributions from ordinary folk would go along way as well. Consider that tr Appalachian trail is a great example of anarchy and voluntary human interaction. It is completely maintained without th use of force, imagine that-people work together to preserve what is important to thm, I believe they call them trail angels. We don't need force and violence to protect that whih we love, persuasion is superior to force and violence.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 16:42:39 MDT Print View

"How can you do evil by doing nothing? DOING EVIL implies action"

German citizens, Holocaust.






Or does a Godwin have to directly compare someone or something to Hitler? Is the Godwin nullified if attempted in deliberate self-awareness? I have no energy to look up the specifics, this thread has drained my will to live.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 17:01:21 MDT Print View

If a thread drains your will to live, see a doctor and stop reading it.

I disagree that all German citizens are somehow responsible for the holocaust, you are cOllectivizing people. By your logic, i would be responsible for the children Obama blew to hamburger because I pay federal taxes-under threat of imprisonment and violence. What about the people who do not vote, are they responsible for it. Can te people who vote be responsible? If they truly belIeved that the politicians were telling the truth and did not know what government is then I would say no, but I'd they knew that government is a criminal gang and voted anyway then they would be responsible. To say that we are responsible for what politicians do implies that politicians do what we want them to.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 17:08:07 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 17:09:03 MDT Print View

I'm not sacrificing five minutes of my life to read through this thread to see if this question was answered elsewhere.

Why do you randomly capitalize letters? By no means am I a spelling nazi (wait did I just lose?) but I've noticed that you like to do this and wasn't sure if I'm supposed to take all of the capitalized letters, decode some sentence, and then figure out where the Free Masons hid Hoffa's body or what.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Capitalization on 08/29/2013 17:12:02 MDT Print View

The dang iPhone is responsible for that and many other misspellings. Are you calling me a conspiracy theorist?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 17:12:23 MDT Print View

"If there wern't government programs we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now."
False dichotomy fallacy, you don't know that."

We do know that technology was developed with heavy government spending.

We do not know what would have happened without government spending.


"I got my education in 1960s and 1970s. Heavily government subsidized."

i can tell."

ha, ha, ha... my education was electrical engineering and since we haven't talked about that, you wouldn't be able to assess the quality of that education : )

when you have run out of logical arguments, you have to sling personal insults


... faceless government that exists only in the minds of its believers ...

The government is us. We elect politicians. If we don't like them, throw the bums out. It doesn't seem to be working very good right now but it's better than alternatives.


Now if we could just agree with that cartoon, that the intersection of Occupy and Teaparty is that companies have bought our government, maybe we could demand that this be fixed. Maybe fix constitution to say that companies don't have free political speech rights.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: if I Godwin this thread, will it end? on 08/29/2013 17:20:44 MDT Print View

"this thread has drained my will to live."

That produced a very healthful gut laugh, thanks, this thread has proved useful


Does the Godwin rule apply if you compare someone to Hitler that has nothing to do with Hitler, but if you mention that Zuse was funded by the Nazis then the Godwin rule doesn't apply because he was funded by the Nazis?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Capitalization on 08/29/2013 17:31:43 MDT Print View

"The dang iPhone is responsible for that and many other misspellings. Are you calling me a conspiracy theorist?"

I hear you. I do the same thing all the dang time. My ability to edit is usually a few minutes slower than my ability to hit send/enter/whatever.

I honestly didn't know if this was a new thing or not. I'm not on Readit or whatever it is you crazy kids do these days and I'm pretty out of touch. Someone had to explain the term "Cougar" to me a couple years ago; I had no idea that it was a colloquialism for a middle aged woman. The good news is that I learned of it before my then 10 year old daughter had to do a presentation on mountain lions so I was very careful with our internet searches.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Bawhahaha on 08/29/2013 17:36:36 MDT Print View

An Anarchist with an iphone. Oh man, the irony is just dripping.

Snort.

Sorry, MUST quit laughing.

Corporations are evil, but darn it, I HAVE to HAVE my hipster smartphone!!!!! Who cares if it is made by slave and child labor!

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
German citizens! on 08/29/2013 17:38:36 MDT Print View

"German citizens. Holocaust."


Wow.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Conversation on 08/29/2013 17:57:27 MDT Print View

This could be just a stimulation conversation. Someone calling for a shift of paradigm ought not to be a threat.
I just find it interesting and worth discussing. What harm can come of that?

I have no idea how or if this would work, but I like to hear about it.
I recently argued with someone with Ike's views about water, and how that would work if not regulated. How do you see that working out Ike?
Also, medical research and the resulting advances?



Vaguely related..
I am currently reading a book about Switzerland and how and why it is what it is.
The Swiss escaped the full consequences of three characteristic European trends: the trend toward rational centralization, the growth of nationalism and the violence of religious conflict.
Nationalism. How's that working out worldwide?



Edited for spelling.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/29/2013 17:58:02 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Bawhahaha on 08/29/2013 18:02:07 MDT Print View

Corporations are a legal creation of th government. Are every one of your clothes made by non-slaves? They are as much victims of statism as we are.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 18:04:11 MDT Print View

and now memes.


It's almost over

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: gubmint on 08/29/2013 18:16:05 MDT Print View

"We do not know what would have happened without government spending."

Government spending is a code word for stolen loot. Exactly, we do not know what the world would be like with a free market in technology. I would take a guess that we would not be driving cars. Imagine if the horse and buggy guys could have used patents and ip law to block the release of the car for years and years. I think government has a negative impact on technology in that it is hijacked by corporations and used to prevent innovation. This is why apple spends more on litigation than R&D.

"The government is us."

So you bombed Afghanistan? You re not the government , you don't have a right to go to your neighbors house and demand a portion of his income. You hallucinate that you are the government but that is the extent of you actually being it.

"It doesn't seem to be working very good right now but it's better than alternatives."

Changing who robs and rules you makes no difference. Removing the double standard that allows one group of people to rule, rob and dominate everyone else-effectively making them equal, is going to change things.

Lysander spOoner said th constitution has either authorized the government we have or been powerless to preent it, either way It is unfit to exist. I would agree with that, befor the ink was even dry, Washington was lying to create an army to kill tax protestors and establish his semi-monopoly in the whiskey industry. It was failed before it ever began.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: German citizens! on 08/29/2013 18:19:47 MDT Print View

"Wow."

Well, clearly it did not end the thread, so the hyperbole was for nothing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Capitalization and Cougar on 08/29/2013 18:21:45 MDT Print View

Ian. A Cougar IS a middle aged woman, but one looking to date younger men.
Just making sure those kids explained it correctly.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Impressive on 08/29/2013 18:31:31 MDT Print View

Wow that is amazing that you can type such a lengthy posts on such a tiny screen. I'd lose my place.

Thanks for the entertainment.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Capitalization and Cougar on 08/29/2013 18:33:27 MDT Print View

Cougar is a middle aged woman if you're a younger man

If you're a middle aged man, then Cougar is an older woman

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Water on 08/29/2013 18:36:04 MDT Print View

As far as water goes, it is no different than any other resource and as such is not immune from economic reality or truths. People care for that which they own, if no one owns it, you get the island of trash in the ocean. When you remove the incentive to care for th environment by collectivizing it you get exactly what would be expected by unowned property, it gets trashed.

Companies who benefit from selling products that purify water would help to keep it clean as well. If commercial drone traffic were legalized there could be trash drones that pick up trash. If a river ran through your prOperty and someone downstream polluted it and it affected you, you could sue them. Without private property there is no one to be angry and no one to sue.

Government is antithetical to environmental stewardship. The only way to safeguard the environment is by recognizing property rights, and the right to sue for damages. It is government that bombards the planet with nuclear and conventional weapons, operates the most fuel-inefficient vehicles, and protects corporations from liability for their actions. Governments also distort the market's natural rationing mechanisms through price controls, subsidies, and irrational regulations.

In contrast, a market with a manipulation-free price structure provides a distributed grassroots information network to signal supply and demand accurately, to better allow people to understand the availability of goods and services, and to provide automatic incentives for conservation or for exploration for new resources.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 18:39:38 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Capitalization and Cougar on 08/29/2013 18:37:38 MDT Print View

I like wealthy cougars, would be quite the business in a free market. Too bad I"m married.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
stimulating, no! on 08/29/2013 18:38:22 MDT Print View

I see no possibility for productive conversation here. As I said earlier I have sympathies to the philosophy so this is not a conversation I am averse to, nor ignorant on the subject for that matter, but this is the rant of an ideologue. Statist, statist, inane comparisons, ignorance of history, wilfull disregard of everything we know of human social behavior. OP makes anarchists look crazy.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
What the heck I'll bite on 08/29/2013 18:42:40 MDT Print View

I have to be honest. I've tried reading what you have to say. I really really tried but I just can't do it.

I did read some.

So riddle me this.

Theoretically the U.S. has adopted your anarchy system. The date is August 29, 1949. What do you think our chances would have been when the Soviets came knocking to impose their political system on us?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Water on 08/29/2013 18:46:04 MDT Print View

I was more asking about how would poor people even get any, if someone just bought the source and the land?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: stimulating, no! on 08/29/2013 18:49:42 MDT Print View

Must be somewhat because you are still engaging. I am not asking that you don't by the way.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What the heck I'll bite on 08/29/2013 18:54:43 MDT Print View

"Theoretically the U.S. has adopted your anarchy system. The date is August 29, 1949. What do you think our chances would have been when the Soviets came knocking to impose their political system on us?"



I know this was not meant for me...but I don't think it is feasible for any single country to just adopt this "anarchy system". If nothing else I see this thread as a push to look beyond some of the ideas that we think are just set in stone.
I am not hoping for a rogue society; I do think that maybe some day we could reconsider nationalism, borders and all that we have built to defend that.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: stimulating, no! on 08/29/2013 18:58:00 MDT Print View

Oh I have been following it all day. Trainwrecks are hard to look away from. Given what I could be saying I think my level of restraint has been admirable.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: stimulating, no! on 08/29/2013 19:01:00 MDT Print View

So by your own logic, humans are bad and unfit to be free, so if they can't handle freedom how could they possibly handle dominating others through a state? If humans are good we dont need a state, if humans are bad we cannot have one becaus the bad humans will simply seek power and dominate us all as is the case almost everywhere on this planet.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 19:06:54 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: What the heck I'll bite on 08/29/2013 19:02:16 MDT Print View

Anarchy is NOT a system and it is definitely not my system, it is the absence of systems-that is the point. If the soviets came to impose their system on us they would meet their end, here are too many guns here.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 19:03:21 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Water on 08/29/2013 19:05:29 MDT Print View

There are millions of water sources, not to mention the sky. The poor would get water the same way thymes do now, from charity, from local sources and from businesses who make a profit by bringing into thm: think how much more charitable people could be if they were 2-3 times as rich as they are now.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: stimulating, no! on 08/29/2013 19:05:32 MDT Print View

I haven't said enough in this thread for you to know my thoughts, much less the logic by which I came to them. I'll go back to lurking now.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: What the heck I'll bite on 08/29/2013 19:06:16 MDT Print View

"I am not hoping for a rogue society; I do think that maybe someday we could reconsider nationalism, borders and all that we have built to defend that."

I think that would be ideal but problematic with Mexico. I could live in Canada or the U.S. with equal contentment.

The US' government has big problems. There's no denying that. As bad is it is up here it's a million times worse in Mexico. Like Nigeria and Venezuela, there is a negative relationship between human & natural resources and their quality of life. There is no reason for Mexico to not have a thriving middle class except for the government which has betrayed its people time and time again.

Please do not try to use that as an example of why anarchy should be implemented here. There is no way you can travel the world, especially in Latin American and most of Asia, where you can come back and bellyache about our lifestyle. Just ry having this discussion (or whatever this is) on the internet in China.

People on this thread may not like cops but at least here in the U.S. we’re not afraid to put the police in jail. Good luck with that south of the border.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Parasites on 08/29/2013 19:14:33 MDT Print View

The reason things are so much better here(or were) because we had a period early in our history where there was mostly economic freedom. The problem is the more freedom you have, the more prosperity, the more prosperity the more th parasite political class drains off the producers. The state has become so large here that it is cosumig something like 40-50% of the economy. When that happens things will never get better, the parasite is draining the producer. Government produces nothing, it only takes.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Quote on 08/29/2013 19:18:04 MDT Print View

I took this "wilfull disregard of everything we know of human social behavior" as implying that we need government becaus people are bad, since that was the drift of most of th statists here.

I called people statists because they are statists, if you believe in the state that makes you a statist, simple.

You said i am wrong about human behavior, please expla that. Otherwise your just making statements.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: What the heck I'll bite on 08/29/2013 19:19:27 MDT Print View

"Anarchy is NOT a system and it is definitely not my system, it is the absence of systems-that is the point. If the soviets came to impose their system on us they would meet their end, here are too many guns here."

Guns don't work all that great against T-54s. So I'm guessing that we'd collectively have to agree without being forced to agree that we'll need to build some tanks and fighters to defend ourselves from the T-54s, bombers, etc. How would we accomplish this with our newly adopted non system of non-government?

Yes the Molotov cocktail enjoyed some success in 1956 Hungary. Yes the Soviets were victorious. Yes even though the Soviets disrupted the revolution the uprising served as a prologue to the demise of the Soviets. Let’s go ahead and acknowledge all that.

How would non system anarchy survive in those conditions?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Water on 08/29/2013 19:25:02 MDT Print View

So say that society would be better off in your scenario, say that with time we could get there .The transitional period in the kind of shift that you would like to see would be very problematic, in my opinion. It could take a long time !! and the loss of many, many lives. I just cannot picture how it would not have to get extreme and violent before it could settle again. Would it be worth what many generations of people would go through, if after that, in the future things would be much better?

Edited because my writing is convoluted!

Edited by Kat_P on 08/29/2013 19:26:31 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 19:27:12 MDT Print View

In that case I'm certain private defense agencies would Join with citizens in a cause that is mutually beneficial to both and shoot th planes down with missiles.

You are creating a scenario that fits exactly what you want to happen. That is called begging the question. I don't need to have all the answers because I am not the anarchist central planner, those don't exist in anarchy. There may be leaders in communities and organizations, but thy don't have monopolies orleans violence. If there is a demand for defense against statist aggressors, the marke will meet that need.

Notice that all the weapons you named were creations of collectivist statist, for there is practically no need for an individual to have such weapons. Only statist who aggress against others would have duh reds for such weapons as nukes and bombers. For only in collectivizing an entire nation would you have the need to bomb such. It's always one nation vs another, note that joe smith need had a beef with German Hans vogelschmidt, no it was American vs nazi(collectivism).

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/29/2013 19:31:17 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Parasites on 08/29/2013 19:43:27 MDT Print View

"The reason things are so much better here(or were) because we had a period early in our history where there was mostly economic freedom. The problem is the more freedom you have, the more prosperity, the more prosperity the more th parasite political class drains off the producers."

Things were better for who? I'm not sure what historical period you're talking about.

Are we talking about the industrial revolution when factory workers were treated worse than animals worldwide and literal slavery was still legal in the U.S.?

Turn of the century? The U.S. was hardly an economic superpower then, middle class was decades away from reality, and the very large majority of urban America fell into the “have not” category.

Post WWI Roaring '20s perhaps which set the stage for the '30s and great depression?

Post WWII? I'll give you that until we whored our production capabilities overseas.
Edit Actually I won't give that to you since the GI bill and other publicly provided benefits help build the middle class.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/29/2013 19:45:04 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Water on 08/29/2013 19:44:26 MDT Print View

The state has already killed hundreds of millions, maybe billions of humans. The state is the true enemy of mankind, it will destroy us if we do not evolve beyond it. States have nukes now, what will it be next? Black hole generators or anti matter devices? If we dont reject statism, the initiation of force and embrace liberty, I think we have no future.

It's true that it will be hard to transition to a free society, and many will suffer in the short term, but many more will suffer in the long term from the effects of statism. What is happening with Detroit where private companies are taking over where the government has failed-and it naturally will since socialism is doomed to failure-is good. I think the gradual replacement of government with private competitive services will be the way to go. Reduce the demand for a state by out competing them to where people can actually begin to see that volluntary human action can provide everything they think they need a state for. Already this is happening in Detroit.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 19:51:50 MDT Print View

"You are creating a scenario that fits exactly what you want to happen. That is called begging the question."

That makes no sense. Why on earth would I want that to happen? Don't get me wrong, I loved the original Red Dawn and would love nothing more than to shoot an RPG while screaming "Wolverines" at an invading commie but seriously, why would anyone want that to happen?

I study history. I see that it is cyclical. I understand that to predict the future I need to look to the past. I see nothing in history which would argue that your theories have a snowballs chance of working in the real world.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 19:58:50 MDT Print View

"If there is a demand for defense against statist aggressors, the marke will meet that need."

Same scenario I provided above. Soviet statist aggressor at the dang door. Everyone from coast to coast wants them gone. How does a society (can I still call it that?) fund the billions of dollars needed to defend itself from tanks and bombs? Run a special at the local Piggly Wiggly that for every Pokemon card you buy, $.50 will go to a new tank?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:12:23 MDT Print View

Oh Hell.... just for feces and giggles lets say that the Piggly Wiggly Pokemon Card sale is a complete success everywhere in the non-united land of America, with the exception that there is a recession in Oregon because Retired Jerry started a coup d’état because Voodoo Donuts discontinued the bacon maple bar....

So the territory once called Oregon cannot raise enough money to buy tanks and the Soviets have landed in Newport. Since we are all individuals and there is no central government, how does the land once known as Oregon defend itself from genocide?

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/29/2013 20:12:58 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:25:48 MDT Print View

The Soviet threat was always exhagerated to justify giving money to big companies and so politicians could get re-elected. The "military industrial complex"

And the Soviets did the same thing. Vicious cycle with Soviet and U.S. right wingers.

Same thing with Iran - they say they're going to destroy Israel and that the holocost never happened because it appeals to their right wingers so they'll stay in office. Our right wingers say equally obnoxious things about Iran.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:27:32 MDT Print View

Oh what the fig freaking newtons....

Let’s just say that it's 1950. There is no government. There is no system. The Soviets have decided that while they've invaded the Iron Curtain countries, and were really really pissed at us for not invading Japan with them so they could occupy some of that country as well.... they are just going to leave us alone because it would be really really mean to do so...

Let's just take national defense out of the picture all together.

Assuming the land mass that was once the U.S. continues on its current trend and a woman is sexually assaulted every two minutes. How would the perpetrator be brought to justice? Would all conflict be dealt with with vigilante justice?

Same scenario but totally different.

Now your son goes on a date. He's a perfect gentleman and never lays a hand on his date. She later finds out that he's not interested in her and has started dating her best friend. To seek revenge, she tells the paid security officers in her neighborhood that your son raped her. How would your son prove his innocence to the angry mob?

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/29/2013 20:40:01 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 20:33:59 MDT Print View

"The Soviet threat was always exhagerated to justify giving money to big companies and so politicians could get re-elected. The 'military industrial complex'"

You can't be serious. Are you really proposing that the Iron Curtain, East Germany, Berlin Airlift, the millions who died due to starvation and murder under Stalin was just propoganda so we could fund the military and related companies?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
For the record on 08/29/2013 20:40:57 MDT Print View

The OP is "Ask an Anarchist" so I'm asking.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 21:05:45 MDT Print View

"You can't be serious. Are you really proposing that the Iron Curtain, East Germany, Berlin Airlift, the millions who died due to starvation and murder under Stalin was just propoganda so we could fund the military and related companies?"

No, I'm saying that the Soviet nuclear capability was exhagerated.

And the "domino principal" rationalization for war with Viet Nam.

After WWII, the Soviets lost 10s of millions of people to a country that attacked them, so they took over a bunch of East European countries as a buffer. And Stalin was a horrible monster. I'm not saying there was anything good about that, but I don't think there was ever a risk that the Soviets would gradually take over the world, country by country.

Rather than using the miltary to end the Soviet Union, it's better to let culture and consumer goods do it. Like the kids were into The Beatles and other popular culture which they wanted to take part in. Or the Soviet propoganda people showed pictures of slums in Mississippi or wherever, but in the background was a TV screen, so the reaction of the propogandees was "wow, they even have televisions in slums".

Like Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex having undue inluence on the government. Or Smedly Butler who said war is a racket. Or Colin Powel who said if we have a war we should have a well defined mission and quickly get out. Listen to the military leaders who have experienced the horrors of wars.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:05:39 MDT Print View

Ahem, hipster boy-o, how is all that China made tech equipment working for ya? Oh, what? You only reply back when it is applicable? Snort.

PS: Trying to compare clothing to iphones ain't cutting it. Sorry, but a lot of fabric is still made in the US and it is pretty darn easy to sew your own clothing. A wee bit harder to assemble a smartphone. Back in the day (since I am fast approaching cougar age and all), I sewed all my clothing while following the Dead. I even sold clothing to support my lifestyle choice.

I knew a lot of "anarchists" who I preferred to call lazy, overly privileged children of middle class whities. They lived a certain lifestyle, squatting in buildings and being mooches - yet never turning down anything from Mummy and Daddy when offered. Had a roommate in college who showed up one day with all her squatter friends and moved them into OUR place. I went to work 5 days a week to have a roof over my head, not to support their bum lifestyle. These same mooches were involved later in the WTO riots in Seattle.

Hows about instead of preaching anarchy you instead go off the grid and be sufficient? It is possible.

But first you'd need to destroy your iphone. And all technology you have. Crazy talk, eh? Cause that internet ain't going to exist without governments to govern it.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:29:55 MDT Print View

Oh yeah, the government created the internet.

That is, they developed darpanet for the military, then Al Gore pushed to make it public and they passed some bills to do some funding to transfer the technology for the public.

You will now hypothesize it would have been done faster by private people rather than those evil government leaches.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:44:26 MDT Print View

Goodness Sarah.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:53:12 MDT Print View

"Goodness Sarah."

Touched a nerve?

I don't think Sarah's anarchists have much to do with Ike's

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 22:56:55 MDT Print View

"Touched a nerve?"

I guess so.

Jerry, you have disagreed with the OP, but have done so without insulting and by making your case. ..
Feeling entitled to just insult because one dislikes another's view point is wrong in my opinion.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/29/2013 22:58:08 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:01:59 MDT Print View

Since we're transitioning from the absurd to a serious conversation....

Jerry,

We're mostly in agreement with the exception of the Soviet Union's desire to expand. And even then I'm not in total disagreement with you. We were not just trying to contain the Soviet Union, we were trying to contain communism in general.

As far as the Soviets are concerned, they made plans to split Poland with Germany at the time they signed the non aggression pact before WWII. The Iron Curtain speaks for itself. Czechoslovakia and Hungary were invaded by the Soviets. East Germans were held captive behind a wall. The Soviet Union toyed with Turkey and carved off a piece of Iran for oil rights.

As we watched the Soviets and tried to figure out their next move, Mao & co. established the PRC in 1949, the Korean War shortly thereafter, one million card carrying communists almost won power in France, no one had any idea what the two million communists in Italy were going to do, Greece had a thriving communist party, etc, etc.

So we dug our heels with our containment policy with Vietnam. You are absolutely correct. I had a History of the American War in Vietnam prof. who spent a couple tours in Vietnam as a soldier and a few years afterwards as a CIA officer; he said the same thing as you, "Instead of bombs and grunts, we should have invaded Vietnam with Cadillacs and Lincolns." I think after being invaded by China, French Colonialism, Japan, only to have us liberate them from Japan and then turn around and deputize the Japanese to police Vietnam... they were looking for anything which would allow for them to live as an independent nation and the banner of communism offered them the most hope.

Even after we enacted the containment policy the Soviets kept us on our toes. They obviously had our attention during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

In light of all this, I don't think our fears were unfounded and our investments in our defense to be unwise. Don't get me wrong, I spent a decade in the military and was sickened to see KBR and other companies run off with truck loads of money but I don't think the Cold War was invented to fund a DOD good ol' boy system. Would the Soviets have ever launched a nuclear missile at us? Dunno but I think M.A.D. helped to hedge our bets.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/29/2013 23:05:23 MDT Print View

I think that anyone that starts a thread defending being an anarchist must enjoy being insulted

masochist?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:09:36 MDT Print View

Two disclaimers.

1) I'm not calling anyone a cougar. I just barely learned what that means a couple years ago and I'm not entirely sure I would use it in the appropriate context.

2) Not too many people I know who remember or were around for the WTO riots are willing to cut the Anarchists much slack. Shameful cowards.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:13:06 MDT Print View

"Cadillacs and Lincolns"

or hospitals and schools

we'll never know the half of what all has happened

I think the "military industrial complex" took advantage of any real communist risk and exhagerated that risk to make a bunch of money

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:28:01 MDT Print View

"I think the "military industrial complex" took advantage of any real communist risk and exhagerated that risk to make a bunch of money"

That's the government and government contractors across the board. Everyone is trying to protect their budget and their little fiefdom.

I'm certainly not saying it wasn't a factor and didn't somehow exacerbate the problem, I'm just saying that there were legitimate fears of the Soviets and communists in general. If you think about it, the US wasn't much of a superpower before WWII. We had dabbled in isolationism prior to WWII but Pearl Harbor forced our hand.

Suddenly the war is over, our European allies are trying to rebuild their infrastructure, we're trying to rebuild Germany, the Soviets are still pissed about the fact that we have the bomb and didn't bring them into the fold when we dropped them on Japan, they react to their insecurities, we react to ours.... a few proxy wars and trillion dollars later here we are parking our boats near Syria playing the world's 911 service.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/29/2013 23:30:26 MDT Print View

"Seven new companies are getting into the auto market.

Coda, wheego, Tesla, Tango, BYD,GEM, SABA, plus Fisker, Think, and Venturi are expanding into the US market. "

Don't forget Elio!

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:31:18 MDT Print View

" a few proxy wars and trillion dollars later here we are parking our boats near Syria playing the world's 911 service"


And where are the protests now? I don't see any. I wish I did !

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/29/2013 23:58:35 MDT Print View

"And where are the protests now? I don't see any. I wish I did !"

At least this won't be a prolonged war like Afganistan or Iraq

I don't see the big deal, 100,000s of people have been killed with conventional weapons. 100s with chemical weapons.

When Hussein was using chemical weapons against Iran, he was our buddy.

Lobbing some cruise missles probably won't help things

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 00:41:12 MDT Print View

Ike, I agree with some of your principles and ideals as some make sense to me.

A few general thoughts about all this. When we start to think of ourselves and label ourselves as this or that ("I'm a______"), it's often an indication that we have bought into a certain belief system. By their very nature, belief systems tend to be narrow in scope and separative in nature. Ideologies are no substitute for the very complex, mysterious, fluidic, and multifaceted nature of life or even of humans and our evolution. Somehow, when we think we have it all figured out in the specifics, we often have missed the mark.

I've had and continue to have some odd experiences in life, things that don't fit the mainstream paradigms, and speaking from that space, i can tell you that to some extent, i DO see your idealized civilization form and not as far off as some may think (speaking in terms of probabilities only though, freewill is quite the wild card at times).

However, it won't happen primarily from people passionately and logically speaking to others about a belief system and ideology, but rather in response to collective severity and challenge. To make a parable of sorts. Humanity is akin to a feuding, bickering family wherein selfishness and disharmony is prevalent, and so people within the family suffer though all in the family have the same basic wish, to be happy. One day, Grandma, whom happens to be beloved by all in the family, gets sick and goes to the hospital. This difficult event becomes a catalyst to the family, and the different disparate parts pull together in a greater unity to rally around Grandma, whom they all care about and want to see get better. In trying to help Grandma and working together for that common, positive goal, they begin to forget about their petty differences and selfishness some. The more they do this, the happier they become, and the happier they truly become, the more they really like it and desire to be healthy and whole in a consistent sense.

The change that can and will likely happen will and has to be a basic spiritual change. A change within primarily hearts and ideals--not so much ideas and intellect. We can have different ideas and beliefs, but it's important that we have the same ideals. Our grandma, is our basic survival. Some very difficult things are likely and to some extent scheduled to happen in the nearish future. Essentially a collapse of civilization as we know it.

It will be this catalyst of world wide recognized necessity that potentially will be the catalyst to wake people up to the reality and importance of Oneness/unity, which Love is the active livingness and recognition of the balance and interplay of Individuality and Oneness in a balanced, constructive manner. In having to work together for our basic survival, we will finally start to get beyond these various ism's, belief systems, ideologies, separations and unimportant differences, and live the truth of the core of reality. And we're going to have help in this, from different beings and areas of consciousness--especially once we show them we're really serious about growing up.

I hope Ike that you will be one of those important parts of helping this to come to fruition when the time comes, but please realize that truth cannot be foisted upon anyone, not intellectually and through words so much as by example and livingness of truth. Yes, it's important to get certain messages out there, but the real change happens by and from emptying self of hindrances and attuning to that which is Creative, Constructive, Positive and Expanding in nature, and eventually your very "vibe" will tend to have an influence, especially when backed by positive actions and example.

And people like that, very well may get killed by others not ready for this and to whom the Light reveals their painful darkness and in that pain they lash out trying to get rid of those channeling that offensive and glaring Light in which nothing is corrupt. Have no fear, the real you, cannot be harmed in this manner anyways.

I recommend meditation and prayer combo as an aide, seeking to be led within by that which is purely constructive and spiritually helpful in nature. There are consciousnesses which are far, far, far more aware and wise than most of us humans, and they would like to help if we would only listen--but the intent, the desire to connect ONLY to these, the most helpful, most loving, most aware, creative, etc is quite important. And they don't care about or really use names per se, but some well known human ones are very much among them.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 02:24:26 MDT Print View

Sarah, I know this is chaff, but wow you are making yourself look stupid. Why are you comparing the OP to some lazy bums you met?
He has been nothing but reasonable in debating his beliefs and you use empty insults and generalize someone you've never met.
The OP is an capitalist anarchist, he isn't trying to take down the economy. I see no reason why he should be called a hypocrite for owning an iphone.
There is nothing about anarchism that forces you to be self sufficient.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 07:48:44 MDT Print View

Justin et al,

I can't speak for Sarah. Before 1999, I figured Anarchy was a punk band and something the skaters like to paint on their boards. When they trashed Seattle, any hope they had to be taken seriously (which I doubt they ever would) evaporated overnight.

I ready a lot of Ike's theory on Anarchy but there's a lot to wade through. Anarchy is not feasible for many of the same reasons true communism was unobtainable. Human nature is that we are dbags and will not hesitate to exploit each other. Throughout history, war has been the rule and not the exception. The world will need to collectively rise above human nature before this conversation can even be put on the table.

As I mentioned before, every two minutes a woman is sexually assaulted here in the U.S. Many of those assaults are from a person of trust or a family member. We need a justice system. We need competent detectives to investigate these cases. Furthermore, we need cops to keep drunk drivers off of the road, EMTs and Paramedics to scrape us off the road, Firefighters to fight fire etc.

Let's just use the Ambulance as an example. I worked on one for a private company for a few years while I was going to college. We were a nonprofit company, we had some tax support from the local communities, and we billed the patients. Our collection rates from the patients was less than 60% and our tax base did little to take the edge off. We were broke and couldn't pay our staff a living wage. We had ambulances break down because they were kept on the road too long.

That was with some tax support. Take that away and we would have been a defunct company. There are some private fire departments here in the U.S. If you don't pay into the system, they will protect your neighbor's house as they watch yours burn to the ground. Sorry but I can't do that. What Paramedic is going to watch a kid die from a diabetic emergency because the parents can't pay?

I don't like everything about my government but I work to make it better. Complaining doesn't help and pontificating about magical nonpolitical systems isn't all that productive.

The good news is that I'm happy and satisfied with my life. I do object to the OP insisting that my happiness is a result of me being brain washed and a slave to the system. My academic background is political science and criminal justice; I have had a few opportunities to think these things over. Taking a position that those who disagree with you are brainwashed just cheapens your argument even further.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
respond on 08/30/2013 08:13:54 MDT Print View

i was off yesterday everybody, im on break right now, i will get responses for everyone when i have time.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:17:23 MDT Print View

"That makes no sense. Why on earth would I want that to happen? Don't get me wrong, I loved the original Red Dawn and would love nothing more than to shoot an RPG while screaming "Wolverines" at an invading commie but seriously, why would anyone want that to happen?

I study history. I see that it is cyclical. I understand that to predict the future I need to look to the past. I see nothing in history which would argue that your theories have a snowballs chance of working in the real world."

I wasn't saying you wanted that to happen i was saying you were begging the question, you were assuming that x would be a certain way in the absense of a state without being able to know that and settup up your question so that x is assumed in the question already. That is called begging the question, it is a logical fallacy.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:25:11 MDT Print View

I think that things are slowly getting better with the existing system.

The (U.S.) Civil War was horrible. WWI and WWII not as bad. Vietnam not as bad as those. Afganistan and Iraq were mere skermishes. At the rate we're going, maybe we'll quit having wars.

We used to routinely support corrupt dictators if they'de sell us their resources, like Shah of Iran, other Middle East countries, South American countries,... Now we're at least talking about supporting democracies. It'll be interesting to see what happens in Egypt, at least Egyptians are the deciders rather than us.

Cold war with Soviets is gone.

A lot of countries have fairly good standard of living from Europe to Japan and Korea. China and India are getting there.

U.S. spending as a percent of GDP bounces around but it's been a little over 20% for decades:
usspendingvstime

That's from wikipedia "government spending". doesn't show Obama very good, but if you've noticed, with the wars ending and the economy improving we're going back from higher levels to more historic average.

Lots of diseases have been cured and others are on the way.

We don't need revolution, we need evolution. Like you right wingers that filibuster anything that's not just what you want need to wake up out of your hysteria : )

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:25:21 MDT Print View

"Same scenario I provided above. Soviet statist aggressor at the dang door. Everyone from coast to coast wants them gone. How does a society (can I still call it that?) fund the billions of dollars needed to defend itself from tanks and bombs? Run a special at the local Piggly Wiggly that for every Pokemon card you buy, $.50 will go to a new tank?"

You are inferring that without a state there is no soceity. This is one of the greatest mistake that statists make. Also, you are essentially arguing from fear which is no argument at all. If you feel threatened by people leaving you alone(anarchy), then say so, don't project your fear unto everyone else.

So essentially you are afraid that a russian state will take over and force russian statism on us, what you fail to realize is we are already taken over and under statist rule as of right now, it is called the United States. Tell me, what is so different about being a slave to the russian system than being a slave to the american system?

The hope is that a free society will survive though education and distributed force—there are no prohibitions on building, importing, or trading arms—and be able to repel invasion from without and enslavement from within; but it is certainly possible it could fail… a guerrilla war might be fought to defeat the new tax-eaters; there are many possibilities.

"The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State." —Murray Rothbard

You falsely confuse "society" with the state. They are different; the state does not build society, but people do, of their own initiative. The state frequently interferes, by coercing people on their own land, and extorting them, but it is not "society"; it is the disease that infects society. Society and government cannot be merged; one is voluntary, the other force.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:35:33 MDT Print View

"Ahem, hipster boy-o"

I am not a hipster, i will be an anarchist/voluntaryist until the day i die.

"how is all that China made tech equipment working for ya? Oh, what? You only reply back when it is applicable? Snort."

I replied to someone who made a similar comment as you, may have been you. Either way, am i supposed to build my own cell phone given that ALL the options are made with slave labor. Am I somehow responsible for the fact that government has granted corporations so much power due to their status as the governmnet created legal entity that they are in the situation they are in?

"I knew a lot of "anarchists" who I preferred to call lazy, overly privileged children of middle class whities. They lived a certain lifestyle, squatting in buildings and being mooches - yet never turning down anything from Mummy and Daddy when offered. Had a roommate in college who showed up one day with all her squatter friends and moved them into OUR place. I went to work 5 days a week to have a roof over my head, not to support their bum lifestyle. These same mooches were involved later in the WTO riots in Seattle."

Voluntaryists are non-violent anarchists, libertarian anarchists are non-violent anarchists. Property damage is against our main principle: the non-agression principle. By lumping ancaps, voluntaryists and libertarian anarchists in the same category as moltov cocktail throwing window bashing moochers clearly shows you have no idea what voluntaryism, anarchocapitalism or libertarian anarchism is and you make yourself look foolish.

"Hows about instead of preaching anarchy you instead go off the grid and be sufficient? It is possible."

I've already done that, but still on the grid in a sense. Why do you assume to know so much about me. For a grateful dead fan, you sure are judgemental of someone you know nothing about.

"But first you'd need to destroy your iphone. And all technology you have. Crazy talk, eh? Cause that internet ain't going to exist without governments to govern it."

The internet would not exist without governmnet to govern it...Ever heard of mesh net? It seems to me that governments are the ones destroying the internet with censorship and law making. You really have faith in governmnet don't you?

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:37:09 MDT Print View

"I think that anyone that starts a thread defending being an anarchist must enjoy being insulted

masochist?"

I'll rephrase for you:

"I think anyone who starts a thread defending being an advocate of non-aggression and property rights must enjoy being insulted"

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:41:52 MDT Print View

"A few general thoughts about all this. When we start to think of ourselves and label ourselves as this or that ("I'm a______"), it's often an indication that we have bought into a certain belief system"

Unfortunately the only way for many people to understand where you stand is to label myself. I stand for peace, the non-initiation of force and property rights. I find this to be natural to the human.

"I hope Ike that you will be one of those important parts of helping this to come to fruition when the time comes, but please realize that truth cannot be foisted upon anyone, not intellectually and through words so much as by example and livingness of truth"

Of course, i agree 100%. That's why i've made changes in my life and lots of people are doing the same in the liberty movement. There is a whole mass of people moving to new hampshire for the free state project. There is alot happening in the liberty movement.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:46:08 MDT Print View

I've provided real scenarios which have happened to other countries throughout history regarding being invaded. You cannot provide a solution to those problems with anarchy other than to call me a slave to my fears.

I've provided real scenarios which are happening at this very moment regarding crime. Your solution is mall cops for hire.

I'm willing to discuss this from a historical perspective, sociological perspective, public safety perspective, and discuss every aspect of those perspectives. From the best I can tell, you are daydreaming out loud with no data or example of how anarchy could work. Furthermore, if anyone disagrees with you, you are so certain of the superiority of your opinion that you resort to calling them slaves who live in fear.

I've had to keep the peace around the world. I've studied these topics in depth. My opinions aren't a product of pondering the meaning of margarine in a coffee shop.

You keep talking in circles without adding anything to the OP you created. If you have something to add then I'll be happy to respond and debate but I suspect this conversation was over long before it started.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Ask an Anarchist on 08/30/2013 08:46:25 MDT Print View

The return to mining our money from the ground will be a refreshing break from the stability of a government backed fiat currency.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 08:52:26 MDT Print View

"Human nature is that we are dbags and will not hesitate to exploit each other. " "

Which is exactly why we cannot have a state. It gives the exploiters an army, nukes, the ability to steal and initiate force against everyone else. Exploiters gravitate to position of power.

"The world will need to collectively rise above human nature before this conversation can even be put on the table. "

The state is merely the WORST PARTS of human nature codified into a collective beast that has killed more people than any other force on this planet.

"We need a justice system. We need competent detectives to investigate these cases. Furthermore, we need cops to keep drunk drivers off of the road, EMTs and Paramedics to scrape us off the road, Firefighters to fight fire etc. "

You don't think people who are actually WORKING FOR YOU could do this? Do you think a monopoly system provides good service? What if walmart was the only department store, do you think they would do a good job or have low prices? We can have cops, EMTS and paramedics in a free society. We can have a justice system. You claim to have done lots of research into anarchy, but you have no knowledge of how services could be provided without violence and theft. Goto stefan molyneuxs channel on youtube and do some research, you would fail the preschool anarchy exam.

"Let's just use the Ambulance as an example. I worked on one for a private company for a few years while I was going to college. We were a nonprofit company, we had some tax support from the local communities, and we billed the patients. Our collection rates from the patients was less than 60% and our tax base did little to take the edge off. We were broke and couldn't pay our staff a living wage. We had ambulances break down because they were kept on the road too long."

"I don't like everything about my government but I work to make it better."

You are not the government, the government is not you.

Because your NON-PROFIT company failed does not mean other companies will fail. Precisely because it was a non-profit is likely why it failed but i cannot assume to know since i know nothing about it. If it had a profit motive it may have succedded. Do you think government systems are sustainable? Systems with no profit motive and no incentive to provide good service? What happens when the government services cannot balance their check book, they just get more money from the people through theft or print more and steal through inflation. Do you see why this is doomed to fail? You cannot assume that because a NON-profit you worked for failed that some how all for profit services would fail in a free market, that is lunacy.

"The good news is that I'm happy and satisfied with my life. I do object to the OP insisting that my happiness is a result of me being brain washed and a slave to the system. My academic background is political science and criminal justice; I have had a few opportunities to think these things over. Taking a position that those who disagree with you are brainwashed just cheapens your argument even further."

Are you a prosecutor?

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anarchist survival on 08/30/2013 08:57:40 MDT Print View

"I've provided real scenarios which have happened to other countries throughout history regarding being invaded. You cannot provide a solution to those problems with anarchy other than to call me a slave to my fears. "

And i provided you answers, read above.

"I've provided real scenarios which are happening at this very moment regarding crime. Your solution is mall cops for hire. "

My solution is personal responsibility and defense organizations which would have the same power to affect crime that cops have now. However, they would not have the power to aggress against peaceful people because there would be no profit in that for them. Where as now, the cops are incentivized to aggress against people for non-crimes. Please tell me where i said "mall cops", because your a liar in that regard.

"calling them slaves who live in fear. "

I never said they were slaves who lived in fear, i said they were slaves. We are all slaves fight now, if you are in delusion that you are not a slave i encourage you to watch this:

Stefean Molyneux - the history of your enslavement
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

If you can refute that video, please do.

"I've had to keep the peace around the world."

How so? We're you a hired mercenary trigger puller for the state?

"You keep talking in circles without adding anything to the OP you created."

Please see all my previous post where i wrote lengthy replies to you, gave alternatives of how things would work in a free society and explained why you were wrong.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/30/2013 09:06:42 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 09:05:43 MDT Print View

"I think that things are slowly getting better with the existing system."

i think you have strong FAITH that things are getting better but the truth is, things are not getting better. Check out this video to see what i mean:

There will be no economic recovery:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYkl3XlEneA

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Not that difficult to comprehend really on 08/30/2013 09:05:55 MDT Print View

Per Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

1a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government
2a : absence or denial of any authority or established order b : absence of order : disorder

If you and yours want to redefine it then don't place unrealistic expectations that the civilized world and reputable/scholarly sources will accept it.

I've actually had to keep the peace in a lawless society. They were still exhuming mass graves and trying to clean up the land mines when I left. Ah... that's my inner slave talking.

I'm not a prosecutor. I'm a plus sized underwear model.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Not that difficult to comprehend really on 08/30/2013 09:08:22 MDT Print View

In what capacity did you "keep the peace?" Who created those mass graves?

Voluntaryism (or sometimes erroneously voluntarism), is a libertarian philosophy which holds that all forms of human association should be voluntary.[1] The principle most frequently used to support voluntaryism is the non-aggression principle (NAP). It is closely associated with, and often used synonymously with, the anarcho-capitalist and individualist anarchist philosophies.

If you don't want to believe your a slave, thats fine. But there are only two options. Either you own yourself or someone else owns you. Since you can be arrested for ingesting unapproved substances, since you are not allowed to own land, since you are not allowed to travel without a license, since must pay a portion of your earnings(to be decided by the master) to the state, since your "propety" can be seized at any time by the state, since you must submit to the thousands of laws your political overlords create, yes, you are a slave. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can work on being free of the chains. Based on just these facts that i can remember from memory, i'd say someone else is laying claim to your body.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/30/2013 09:12:09 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Not that difficult to comprehend really on 08/30/2013 09:12:12 MDT Print View

"Please see all my previous post where i wrote lengthy replies to you, gave alternatives of how things would work in a free society and explained why you were wrong."

Day dreaming out loud? Yes. Gave alternatives? Yes. Gave examples of your theories working anywhere in the world at any time in history, and I mean from the stone age to 15 minutes ago? No.

If by paid mercenary you mean professional soldier who put himself in harms way to secure a peace in the Balkans then yes. Oh wait... we were in Bosnia for the oil.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Balkans on 08/30/2013 09:14:58 MDT Print View

I don't claim to be an expert on the balkan war, it was before my time. But history has shown that every military intervention the united states has been involved in has been to increase it's own power or benefit the war profiteers. I defer to the most decorated man in military history, general Butler; "War is a racket"

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Balkans on 08/30/2013 09:17:50 MDT Print View

Ike,

I say this with no malice. You can't study politics without studying history. We don't agree and that's fine.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
slavery on 08/30/2013 09:26:55 MDT Print View

1

2

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Balkans on 08/30/2013 09:28:41 MDT Print View

"I say this with no malice. You can't study politics without studying history. We don't agree and that's fine."

How can you conclude from my comment about the balkan war which is one event, that i have not studied history at all?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Balkans on 08/30/2013 09:34:59 MDT Print View

"How can you conclude from my comment about the balkan war which is one event, that i have not studied history at all?"

Not going there. I'm done. Good luck.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Balkan war on 08/30/2013 09:35:38 MDT Print View

Given the past history of US imperialism, i would be willing to bet money that the reason the US went to war in the balkans had nothing to do with keeping the peace. I could do research and get back to you.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Hey, I never got an answer on 08/30/2013 09:57:41 MDT Print View

59 minute video of some zealot with crazy ideas? no thanks

I remember "Ruff Times" and other people that predicted doom. There are always doom predictors.

One thing that has gotten progressively worse since WWII is that corporations and super wealthy have gotten more control of the government. For example, corporate tax rate:
corpeff

I think if people woke up, maybe this could be rectified.

If you look at the "Tea Party" politicians, what they vote for is making abortion illegal (which is just political to keep support of their base), repealing Obama Care (get rid of a program that benefits average people), and not removing any of those tax loopholes that benefit corporations and super wealthy.

The "Tea Party" leaders are not going to fix the problem of corporations and super wealthy having undue influence.

Voters that call themselves Tea Party may actually be part of the solution but their organizations have been subverted.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
tax rate on 08/30/2013 10:21:14 MDT Print View

you can conclude opinions of the video author after you watch it not before, otherwise you would misinformed and judging with no evidence.

The jones plantation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8Rj5xkDPk

SO your solution is to steal more money. moral solution, too bad it will not fix the problem which is systemic, the problem is the idea that some people can steal and commit aggression and others cannot. Governments are not immune to the laws of economics, i think people will find that out soon enough as what detroit is curretly experiencing gets worse and spreads across the country. Governments will always need more, their apetite can never be satiated. What happens when the producers have nothing more to give?

There are always doom predictors, but this time they are right. They are not fools in basements.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 08/30/2013 10:46:02 MDT.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: WTO on 08/30/2013 11:00:55 MDT Print View

For those o-fen-d-ed by my comments, I have my reasons why I look down on Anarchists. Thing is, I was in my 20's and could have been a prime person to engage in the WTO riots. But then, smashing and looting corporate stores just has never rung as right to me.

The WTO left a pretty sour taste in me. So has my experience with every so-called anarchist I have met (and I have met quite a few). They were not into the lifestyle for warm fuzzies and to have a better life. Every single one of them was into it to get something for nothing - and to not have to hold a real job - and to be off the radar of the gov't. Had they all been off in teh foothills, living off the land, I might have a better view. Instead, they lived in cities and large towns, existing on the shadows - and often using things put in place by local gov'ts to help the homeless and below poverty levels, such as food, shelter and other services.

The reality is, while many will live happily together, for the better of society, without law and leaders, society cannot exist. There will always be those who seek to corrupt and destroy. And to take advantage of the weakest.

And might I add something to back on page 1: that drugs don't hurt anyone except for the one doing them. You really believe that BS? Seriously? Illegal drug use hurts many people - from children stunted by user parents (ignored, abused, abandoned, underfed, exposed to chemicals) to the drug cartels selling the drugs, that run countries illegally, killing anyone in their way (ooh, how does that anarchy work?). Legalizing it isn't much better either. Yeah, it cuts cartels out but it doesn't repair lost lives and families destroyed.

I am entitled to my views as much as you are. Unless of course, you are setting the rules, under a dictatorship, in a power struggle. Like so many countries have seen when gov'ts fall.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: tax rate on 08/30/2013 11:13:55 MDT Print View

My solution is for people to become more aware that corporations and super wealthy have bought our government and vote for people and call them to get them to remove loopholes.

A problem is that medical expenses have continuously expanded to the point it's crippling the economy because we're spending so much. The red part of that graph keeps getting bigger so it's now the biggest piece. State and local governments, companies, and individuals are similarly effected.

Take for example the formula for a successful pharmaceutical company. Create a "blockbuster drug". Tweak an existing drug that was created by government research. Create some questionable data that shows it's slightly more effective. Bug doctors to prescribe it. Run ads on TV. Charge a lot and get lots of people using it. They have bought off the government to allow this. We have to fix this.

Obama Care has made some minor fixes, but it's so toxic now, it's impossible to make much progress. Again, the "Tea Party" fillibuster prevents much progress.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: WTO on 08/30/2013 11:24:21 MDT Print View

Yes, everyone is entitled to their views. What they are not entitles to is attacking others with name calling and belittling comments. One can still do that, but they lose respect from part of the community.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Slavery on 08/30/2013 11:26:21 MDT Print View

I surfed some really fun waves this morning, ate a great breakfast, and just finished lecturing two morning classes on ceramics. A great day all around. I'll finish work, drive home, hang out with my kids, probably take them out for an ice cream tonight.

I'm am not scared about bombs falling from the sky, a militia rolling into my neighborhood tonight and raping the women and killing the men, or my children dying from bad drinking water.

In the face of all of this, sitting around speculating on computers and sipping coffees..I find that to assert that "we" are all slaves is disingenuous to the extreme.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Slavery on 08/30/2013 11:57:08 MDT Print View

So Craig, what I hear you saying is:

"I enjoyed my slave eggs, surfed some sick slave waves on my slave board, and indoctrianted young slaves in my camp of lies."

I'm not sure if I was on the high road before but I'm certainly not on it now.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Slavery on 08/30/2013 12:26:12 MDT Print View

Yeah, that's pretty much it Ian.

I'm going to politely walk away from this now and go enjoy being a benefactor of Statist Empire.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: WTO on 08/30/2013 12:54:55 MDT Print View

"Yes, everyone is entitled to their views. What they are not entitles to is attacking others with name calling and belittling comments. One can still do that, but they lose respect from part of the community."

True but I suspect that if every dissenting opinion was responded to with something other than "you are a (edit: brainwashed) slave and lack the mental faculties to understand how wrong you are about a system that has never existed," this discussion may have gone another direction.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/30/2013 12:55:34 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: WTO on 08/30/2013 14:27:35 MDT Print View

True Ian.

Yuri R
(Yazon) - F
Lost cause on 08/30/2013 14:29:13 MDT Print View

i know you think you got it all figured out and the rest of the people are deeply lost and mistaken in their world views and believes. There is little if anything anyone can do here to show you otherwise. And it is not due to lack of argument, but because you are willing ignoring the arguments others are making.

When someone puts an argument in front of you - you just claim that they are rambling and start posting pictures with slogans. Believe it or not, but i bet majority of people here would agree that you are the one who is rumbling and making little sense.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Lost cause on 08/30/2013 15:18:05 MDT Print View

For anyone who's interested, I'd recommend reading Five Years to Freedom.

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Years-Freedom-Story-Vietnam/dp/0345314603/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377896302&sr=8-1&keywords=five+years+to+freedom

This is an interesting book about a Green Beret who spent five years as a POW in Vietnam. There's one part where Lt. Rowe was being "educated" by one of his captors about the superiority of the communist political platform. Lt. Rowe asked the most basic of all questions, if Communism is so great, why are GDR and Soviet Union Citizens risking life and limb to escape their countries? His captor could not provide an answer and had to consult with his superiors to craft an answer.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:31:36 MDT Print View

So Ike have you ever been bull-whipped? Or had your child taken from you and sold? Or worked all day in the fields while wearing shackles?...I think not.

To conflate slavery with what is likely your very comfortable existence while posting hyperbolic messages Ad Nauseam is a disconnect from reality. Notice there is hardly a speck of sympathy for you or your position. I suspect that you are young, perhaps when you have a some more years added and fully develop your senses you can make some informed and debatable observations. Until then it is just endless circular recycling of talking points.

Talk about.. what is the term you like so well.. logical fallacies?




ITYMST-wait for it

Edited by AldoLeopold on 08/30/2013 16:37:58 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:33:27 MDT Print View

When you say "Ian" do you mean "Ike"?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:35:16 MDT Print View

"So Ian have you ever been bull-whipped? ?"

Hey it's America man! What me and the missus do in our free time...

(Well now this doesn't make much sense at all.)

Edited by IDBLOOM on 08/30/2013 16:39:25 MDT.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:41:32 MDT Print View

IAN-sorry and corrected :)

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:46:27 MDT Print View

No worries man. I felt that the only thing this thread was missing was a dozen more memes. Specifically, a dozen more S&M memes.

So I googled S&M memes...

....what has been seen cannot be unseen.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:54:45 MDT Print View

"IAN-sorry and corrected :)"

But now the posts following that make no sense...

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: slavery on 08/30/2013 16:58:53 MDT Print View

....what has been seen cannot be unseen.


"MY EYES..THEY BUUUURNNN"

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Sacrifice on 08/30/2013 18:04:45 MDT Print View

Thanks Ian for taking one for the group.

"....what has been seen cannot be unseen."

So true.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Sacrifice on 08/30/2013 18:14:54 MDT Print View

Ken,

There's stuff out there that I didn't think was humanly possible. Don't go. Stay in the light.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/30/2013 18:31:16 MDT Print View

Ike,

Has there ever been a sizeable group of people who lived under the non-system that you discuss? Seems that with 100 billion people born in the last few thousand years this has surely been attempted? I'm honestly asking here, not trying to goad you. Sorry If this has already been discussed somewhere in this thread.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 08/30/2013 18:32:14 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 08/30/2013 18:45:19 MDT Print View

"Has there ever been a sizeable group of people who lived under the non-system that you discuss?"

When Pinochet did a coup in Chile in 1973, he then instituted economic policies from "the Chicago School" that included a bunch of Libertarian ideas some of which are the same as Ike's Anarchism

The fact that they were instituted as part of a coup that was supported by the CIA doesn't start out very good

For a number of years, they were arguably somewhat successful

In the end, Pinochet was accused of embezzlement and human rights violations. He had amassed $28million.

You could say this shows that libertarianism doesn't work

or you could say they just didn't implement it correctly, but then we're back to no one has ever made this system work

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Ask an Anarchist on 09/01/2013 22:37:36 MDT Print View

Do you watch Stefan Molyneux's videos?

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Privately owned nuclear weapons - Freedom 101***************** on 09/08/2013 08:51:20 MDT Print View

For those of you who don't understand freedom, this is a good introduction.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/FreedomainRadioVolume6/~3/34_UolhF9XA/FDR_2475_Privately_Nuclear_Weapons.mp3

Alot of those questions like who will build the roads, what about pollution, what about the sewers, how will the we have protection from criminals AND other invaders, etc, are answered here.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 09/08/2013 09:04:08 MDT.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Molyneux on 09/08/2013 08:52:04 MDT Print View

Yes i do follow what stefan produces.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Re: Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 09/08/2013 08:52:59 MDT Print View

Someone instituting something is not anarchy.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ask an Anarchist on 09/08/2013 10:09:58 MDT Print View

The first rule of Anarchy Club is there is no Anarchy Club.