Forum Index » General Lightweight Backpacking Discussion » Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite


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eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Marmots on 08/26/2013 12:27:49 MDT Print View

Im gonna start killing all those darn marmots for chewing through my food

And lets not forget the neighbourhood dog for keeping me awake at night

Leave no trace except for the bodies of bears that need to make way for our enjoyment

;)

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 12:28:27 MDT Print View

Dean L said: "Paraphrase "Lets kill the bears rather than letting them have the audacity to interfere with my camping trip"."
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No. You can mock it all you want, but the bottom line is that this bear is going to be a danger to humans at some point. Is it man's fault? Yes. Should every effort be made to prevent bears from becoming habituated to human food? Absolutely. But placing the life of one bear over human safety is ludicrous. Note that I live in Alaska and don't camp in Yosemite. It's not going to affect my campout. But I don't want to read in the news later that some kid got killed because soft-hearted people felt it would be wrong to eliminate a problem bear. The bear will die then, for certain, and a person will have been harmed. When you add in the possibility of this bear teaching other bears how to do this, compounding the problem, there is only one logical solution.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 12:46:44 MDT Print View

I'm not willing to let a bear get killed just so you or I can recreate. I think you missed the point. I really don't care where you live. The ability of wildlife to live is far more important than your or my leisure time. If your daily life is so affected by the natural world, then perhaps you should move.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 12:52:36 MDT Print View

Maybe if you don't let humans into wild areas to recreate, then we won't appreciate the wild areas so in hte long term will allow them to be exploited and more adversely affected.

If there are many bears, then killing one problem bear won't affect their long term survival.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 13:00:40 MDT Print View

Dean L said: "I'm not willing to let a bear get killed just so you or I can recreate. I think you missed the point. I really don't care where you live. The ability of wildlife to live is far more important than your or my leisure time. If your daily life is so affected by the natural world, then perhaps you should move."
---
I think it's just that we have a different view on the value of animal life vs. human life. You seem to view animals as our equals (or possibly more important) whereas I simply don't see their lives as being as important as human life. I'm all for conservation, but with what I consider reasonable limits.

My daily life is positively impacted by the natural world. I am perfectly content living and recreating where I do and have only had positive encounters with wildlife. I do thank you for your concern, however.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
"Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 14:09:56 MDT Print View

I'm not sure that there's ever been a bear attack on a human in Yosemite. I could be wrong here. Or any in the Sierra that I've ever heard of.

Bear habituation is a huge problem around Lake Tahoe, where passions run high on how to deal with problem bears. But again, no bear attacks on humans, despite thousands of encounters.

"Problem bears" in Yosemite are not bears that maul people, they're bears that break into cars and steal unattended food from campsites.

so if you take "increased risk of death by bear attack" out of this discussion, does it change how people think about the issue? Now we're killing bears for stealing food, period.

And by the way I'm totally sympathetic with homeowners and others around Tahoe who want to eliminate problem bears. I'm not sure if push came to shove what I'd do in their situation.---Wait, if I had kids around, I know that I'd eliminate the bear.

But the orphan cubs are sad.

Edited by book on 08/26/2013 14:13:40 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Offing bears. on 08/26/2013 15:33:14 MDT Print View

"The correct solution is to remove all vendors from the park and blow up Hwy 120."

Maybe easier to just let the Rim fire burn itself out? ;0)

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 17:32:42 MDT Print View

No, Dena I place a higher value on animal life, rather than human recreation. I guess you don't.

This animal did nothing more than raid someones food, no injuries or deaths. As many here seem to think that that should result in this bears death, I disagree.

"The last word in ignorance is one who says of an animal or plant: What good is it?"

^quote by Aldo Leopold

If you don't know who Aldo Leopold was, then I guess we have little left to discuss.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 17:39:48 MDT Print View

So animal life is only validated by human appreciation? I think they exist for themselves. If it comes to their lives or my recreation,...well I guess you can "appreciate" my response.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 18:05:07 MDT Print View

Is it okay to kill and eat meat?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 18:07:20 MDT Print View

"Is it ok to kill and eat meat?"

That would be the next question, Jerry. I still have not fully figured that out yet...

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 18:51:26 MDT Print View

"... many here seem to think that that should result in this bears death, I disagree."


Hypothetical Question?

You would rather spare this bear, even though it might result it the taking of an untold number of bears in the future, if this bear does indeed directly or indirectly "teach" other bears?

Edited by greg23 on 08/26/2013 18:52:13 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 18:58:21 MDT Print View

If it was 75+ years ago that bear would be dead already. What if Yosemite bears started to associate humans with guns instead of food? Rubber bullets and guns for all in the backcountry. Would you rather pack that or a more robust canister?

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans in Yosimite on 08/26/2013 19:27:49 MDT Print View

""You would rather spare this bear, even though it might result it the taking of an untold number of bears in the future, if this bear does indeed directly or indirectly "teach" other bears?"

Brings up an interesting philosophical question beyond wildlife management. Do you do something that you believe is bad (shoot a bear, kill a person, fight a war etc.) in order to prevent something worse (more bear problems, rape, genocide etc). One side of the argument is that is better to shoot one bear to save others or that its better to shoot criminal to stop a rape or to shoot a dictator to stop a genocide.

On the other hand you could say "I'm not responsible for what other people or bears do, that is beyond my control. I do draw the line at shooting bears, shooting criminals, fighting a war etc. I will behave morally in situations I can control and hope for the best."

Principled people have taken variations of both positions but few hold position with complete consistency. Some situations are so morally screwed up I'd prefer not to take part. For example whose side would would you have taken when Stalin and Hitler where fighting each other? How do you pick between genocidal dictators? On the other hand I do like having police I'm glad we defeated Nazism (even though that meant working with good ol Stalin).

How does this connect to bears, I lost track.

Edit - I meant Hitler and Stalin in World War II good catch Tom.

Edited by Cameron on 08/26/2013 20:19:03 MDT.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: "Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans at Yosemite" on 08/26/2013 19:32:26 MDT Print View

Dean L brought Leopold to this discussion If you don't know who Aldo Leopold was, then I guess we have little left to discuss.

Those who don't know but are curious could start with A Fierce Green Fire.

There is a documentary film with the same title but like most film adaptations it might have more emotional punch than the book but less meat.

Here is an interview with the author of that biography. That is part 1 of a three part interview and contains links to the other two parts. Part 2 includes questions about Leopold's complex relationship with hunting. I find it interesting to speculate if we'd have the Leopold we know without him being a life long hunter (and I normally avoid speculation like the plague!).

After that introduction one could progress to Leopold's writings

Edited by jcolten on 08/26/2013 19:34:21 MDT.

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: bear boxes on 08/26/2013 19:46:51 MDT Print View

"I'd like to see steel storage boxes (discretely) positioned in all camping locations in problems areas of the Sierra."

One bear in Kings Canyon actually found a weekness in the steel storage boxes and amd managed to get food out of them. The park had to modify all the boxes. I have not heard of any other problems with them since.

As to bears dropping a canister over a cliff there are 3 sollutions other than killing or relocating the bear.

1 don't but the canister near a cliff. Bears cannot carry the canisters. They can toss them or push them to the cliff.

2 Place the canister in a narrow gap between several rocks so that the canister can only be moved by lifting it out.

3. Secure it to a tree with a light weight cable or strong rope.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re Re Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans in Yosimite on 08/26/2013 19:56:38 MDT Print View

"For example whose side would would you have taken when Stalin and Russia where fighting each other?"

Uh...I'm confused.

"How do you pick between genocidal dictators?"

Go after the one with the smallest army. Better yet, mind your own business unless you and yours are the intended genocidees.

"or to shoot a dictator to stop a genocide."

That would be an easy question to answer if you only had to shoot the dictator. Trouble is, they usually have an army you have to deal with first, and then lots and lots of people get shot, including a bunch of your own. That's a problem we generally seem to have trouble figuring out, but at least we had the sense not to mess with Good Ol' Joe, who had an army of about 10 million at the end of WW II. And he had the sense not to mess with us. All in all, a decidedly moral decision on both sides, given the likely outcome.

"Principled people have taken variations of both positions but few hold position with complete consistency."

Probably because a lot of situations like the ones you describe are extremely complex and involve a lot of contradictory moral principles. In general, I would say it is better to avoid killing in all but the most extreme situations, but I doubt I could apply that principle in all cases.

"How does this connect to bears, I lost track."


From the bear's perspective, if we're arguing amongst ourselves, we're not shooting at him. Which is probably why I'm jerking your chain a little. ;0)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re Re Bear learns how to crack Garcia cans in Yosimite on 08/26/2013 20:15:33 MDT Print View

As long as we're distracting us from shooting bears

I don't think wars have much to do with genocide

I think they have to do with getting political power to the leaders so they can pillage the economy. Sort of like Smedly Butler talked about - who the right wingers tried to lead a coup against FDR but Butler ratted them out instead.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Arguements on 08/26/2013 20:42:23 MDT Print View

Tom I cleared up the dumb typo, yeah those are complex issues. Most moral questions seem to involves some version of "Whats pragmatic" vs. "What's principled." My guess is because no one has the ability to create a perfect solution.

Getting back to the bear here would be my questions

1. What actually happened to the canister? If the bear got his mouth in a half opened canister as suggested we don't have a super smart bear we just have dumb campers, nothing new there, similar things have happened before and the officials can manage that.

2. If he really did break a canister how? If he pushed it off a cliff that's manageable to some extent. If he side swiped it into a tree and smashed it we have a bigger problem.

Edit - I'd be fine with Nick's idea of blowing up Hwy 120, can we blow up the Blue Ridge Parkway too?

Edited by Cameron on 08/26/2013 20:43:31 MDT.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Cracking cans on 08/27/2013 00:16:36 MDT Print View

According to my students, the person hired to monitor and tag the bear aid it was knocking them over a cliff, then going down to eat the contents. Nothing half opened to begin with.

FWIW, the bear recognized the lady with a rifle, and took off when it saw her. Some negative reinforcement has been done, but not enough to stop the canister predation.