What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it)
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Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 07/31/2013 23:10:35 MDT Print View

Okay, I've said a lot about how people don't need much when they hike.

So now I am finally hiking the JMT at my own pace and decided to put my list where my mouth has been for too long.
I'm going self supported so, I'll get stuff at Reds and Tuolumne.

I can take a few pounds off, but this will be a Fastpack.
I'm trying to keep everything as simple as can be and carry the least fussy items.


The Big 3 + food storage:
Pack ULA Conduit - 16.5
Shelter Homemade M90 Bivy- 3.0
Homemade Down Quilt- 18.9
Pad 1/4" (24"x 72" closed cell pads - 4
Cuben Tarp and 6 stakes (Groundcloth if not raining) - 6.5
Food bag and hanging line- 3ish
Total 46.0 ounces, 3 lbs 3 ounces


Cooking:
Trail Lite Ti 900- 3.8
pot stand, wind and mini bic 1.0
Long Ti Spoon- .2
Total: 5.0 ounces


Equipment Carried:
Homemade beane 1.0
Mid weight L/S Shirt - 8
Wind Jacket - Homemade M90 - 2.2
Fenix HL20 with battery- 2
Water 2 Gatorade 32 ounce bottles- 1.9
MP3- 1.0
Mosquito head net - 0.5
Total: 18.6 ounces

Consumables:
10 Esbits 5.0
Water Average 24 Ounces
Food 10 pounds
Total: 11 pounds 13 ounces

Others in Pack:

Maps Tom Harrison, cut down
ID, CC, Cash, Key
Phone and Charger
A little bit of Sunblock, Chapstick
Tape for Feet
Pills various
4 extra aaa batteries
3 extra aa batteries
T/P
Total: 12.5 ounces


Clothing Worn:
Rail Riders long sleeve
Hiking Pants
CEP Calf Compression
Hat with neck protection
Buff
Asics Scout
Injiji Socks and light layer over them
Fingerless Bike Gloves
Sunglasses

Total Start Pack Weight: (with 24 oz water)
17 pounds

Finish Pack Weight: (all consumables expended)
5 pounds

Edited by awsorensen on 08/30/2013 23:53:20 MDT.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 07/31/2013 23:16:02 MDT Print View

No rain jacket?
Not a criticism, just wondering if you plan on sheltering it out if it rains.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 07/31/2013 23:21:25 MDT Print View

HASH
Hike Aaron Sorensen's Hike.

Nice list though.



Edited: after OP was edited this reply makes little sense.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/01/2013 12:37:58 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 07/31/2013 23:22:16 MDT Print View

It rains in September in California?

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 07/31/2013 23:42:05 MDT Print View

I've only been backpacking in the southern Sierras a few times, so I wouldn't know.
It definitely doesn't rain anywhere I've been to in September.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 06:33:52 MDT Print View

"I'm trying not to criticize anyone, but the "hike your own hike" seems way too blown out of proportion."

Could you explain that please?

"(this is how you do it)"

So it is HASH.

Good thing ego doesn't need pack space. You'd need a much bigger pack.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 07:29:02 MDT Print View

No resupply between Red's and Whitney Portal?

And, how many miles per day for your "FastPack"?

Edited by greg23 on 08/01/2013 08:51:00 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 08/01/2013 07:49:19 MDT Print View

Which pack is the MLD Conduit?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 08/01/2013 08:18:09 MDT Print View

of course it never rains or storms in the Sierra (my recent horrific July storm experience not withstanding).

but your plan to combine just a bivy as shelter and then no rain gear is a bit brazen and a slap and a taunt at mother nature.

Andrew F
(andrew.f) - F - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it) on 08/01/2013 10:04:53 MDT Print View

Aaron, I'm surprised to see a stove and pot in your list since you've advocated no-cook in the past. I assume you are planning to do the trail in ~5 days... do you take the time to cook when you're on that pace?

Interestingly, your total pack weight is about the same as mine, but I am bringing more conventional stuff on the JMT in August (shelter, raingear, etc.). I'll have about 17 lbs with water when leaving MTR, with 4 days of food heading south. About 8 lbs base weight. However, I have the benefit of sharing gear with Manfred K. who will be carrying our bear can and a few other items. You must eat more than me if you have 10 lbs of food for the stretch between Red's and Whitney Portal.

At the risk of starting another raingear debate, Aaron has a number of things going for him in terms of weather:
-Since he is fastpacking, he has the advantage of an accurate weather forecast before his hike. I imagine if lots of rain/t-storms are forecast he would add back in a raincoat or change his dates.
-He has a polycro groundsheet, so if he starts getting rained on in his bivy, he can drape it over the top of himself. I have done this before and while I would not describe it as comfortable, I woke up dry and warm.
-Since he is hiking at a fast pace, he is much more likely to come across natural shelter that he could use in case the weather begins to turn.
-Again, since he is hiking at a fast pace, if things start to get bad he can be out of the mountains in ~4-6 hours from most anywhere on the JMT.

When are you hiking the trail? Might see you out there.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 10:04:54 MDT Print View

Ken,
Thanks
Yeah, didn't mean to come off that way.
I'm trying to emphasize more on the gear people seem to have to bring with them and why they can't go without.
That is what turns the hike your own hike, when so many people say something like "you don't need an extra this or that" and there is always a reason for them to bring it anyway. Then everyone criticizes the people trying to help them and the reply is "hike your own hike".

The way to avoid rain is a big tree.
You will rarely get wet sleeping under a tree in the sierras. This is the reason I feel the M90 bivy is more than adequate.
I can also throw the GG ground cloth over me if it is raining that hard.

A rain jacket will wet out anyway. I would rather have a synthetic jacket, but the Marmot is perfect for hiking in the cold. It keeps you warm, and wicks very well in and out.
If you have a rain jacket, you still need warm layer underneath. So 'll have a 10% chance of getting rained on, big deal.
I've hiked in the sierras more than 40 times and have never brought or needed a rain jacket.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/01/2013 10:15:59 MDT.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
cat stove? on 08/01/2013 10:15:06 MDT Print View

Pretty sure the Sierra is under a severe fire warning, meaning (among other things) that alcohol stoves are banned.

I'm sure you have your reasons for ignoring the ban.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: cat stovee? on 08/01/2013 10:17:10 MDT Print View

No, just didn't know there were no alcohol stoves allowed.
Switching to esbit.

Andrew,
I gave myself 7 1/2 days for the hike.
Trying to average at least 35 miles a day and still get somewhat of a good nights rest each night. 35 miles is a piece of cake.
On my speed (FKT) attempts I did not bring any sleeping gear based on sleeping 1.5 hours before sunset and 1.5 hours after sunrise when it warmed up. That did not work at all. If the push for any more milage per day was happening, I would just bring my sub 10 ounce quilt for naps.

I have 10 pounds of food for 5 days to Reds.
Cooking for a warm dinner, coffee and oatmeal in the morning. I'm always cold so a warm meal should be worth the weight?
That is pretty impressive that while sharing a load, you'll be lighter than this.
Really wish Ursack would have gotten approved when they say they should have this year.
1.5 pounds off would be nice.

I'll be starting on Sept 8th.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/01/2013 11:07:53 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Better on 08/01/2013 12:25:42 MDT Print View

Nm

You edited your OP and now a few replies make little sense.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/01/2013 12:36:52 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Better on 08/01/2013 12:57:00 MDT Print View

Yea, still a little cooky though. I saw that.
I guess people see going 35 miles a day as cooky though.

Moving at a faster pace and more miles per day has every bit of being Ultra Light.
You are still essentially "hiking".
I have learned so much on this sight and even more going out.
You realize just what you need and use. There are also times I have gone out with 30+ pounds on my back for a 3 day trip and so many of the items in the pack were useless or at least could have stayed at home without any problems.

I've learned how to stay warm, dry and comfortable (for the most part) while moving and really like the experience of what you get from it.
I've also taken too little and been in situations where eventually the list above has been the sum of experience more than what you may need.

Hobbes 1
(Hobbes)
What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 12:57:18 MDT Print View

"I'm always cold so a warm meal should be worth the weight?"

Aaron, I've read your past accounts with great interest, so I know you know what you're doing, but, at the risk of sounding insulting, I think you're verging on the the realm of "stupid light".

For one, I didn't see a thermal layer, like an R1, on your list. Did I miss something? Also, a 10oz down vest is also key, especially for someone who gets cold. Depending on your direction and your planned bivies, night time temps will definitely start to dip below freezing.

A second instance is that M90 bivy isn't going to do you any good. For another 9oz (12oz total), you could take along a proper 6x8 silnylon tarp. If you don't want to take stakes, then you could use rocks.

A third example is the lack of rain protection. While I like the Frog Togs poncho, rain gear can be as simple as a large garbage bag.

Four, I hate air mattresses for two reasons: simplicity & lack of lightning protection.

The 4th point ties into the bivy/tarp question & (lack of) rain gear. You seem pretty nonchalant about hanging out under a tree, but that is perhaps the most dangerous place to be in the event of a T-storm.

I think you're really underestimating the risk of inclement weather, even in Sept. If the afternoon storms don't get you, a good monsoon flow can clean your clock.

Assume you get stuck during a T-storm somewhere "south of Forester". What are going to do? With proper equipment, perhaps weighing no more than 16oz more, you could:

- lay out a CCF pad & assume "the position" (no, not that position - the anti-lightning squat) amongst the trees, but definitely NOT next to a trunk - more out amongst the general canopy
- put on your R1 and/or down vest (remember, you're not going to be moving, so people can get hypothermia)
- put on your garbage bag and/or poncho

The above also applies to a storm developing overnight - if you got wet/cold and you could't move due to lightning, your trip is gonna be over pretty soon.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/01/2013 13:59:14 MDT Print View

Looks good to me Aaron.

I like the spartan approach Aaron is taking here and I don't doubt his ability to make this work one bit.

We can throw out hypotheticals here, but ultimately, Aaron's post isn't for feedback on whether or not we think he can be safe out there, rather this is his statement to how little he requires to move efficiently in the mountains.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 14:05:22 MDT Print View

Hobbes,
Oh, these reasons are all the more why I don't take them.

A down vest doesn't keep you warm in rain. This is what the 19 ounce quilt does.
With a warm enough quilt, you don't need the insulation layer you would to normally get you there with a bag or quilt that is not warm enough. The thermal layer is that the jacket is fleece lined vs just bringing a rain or wind jacket.

I have a 5.5 ounce TNF rain coat and a 5 ounce cuben tarp, but if the tarp goes and the bivy stays, then I have to worry about the quilt staying dry. M90 is pretty much waterproof. The bivy even helps with the dew accumulating each night where a tarp, no. So bring both, yes, if the weather cast gives a chance of "real" rain, not an afternoon shower, that just feels good.

"Assume you get stuck during a T-storm somewhere "south of Forester". What are going to do? With proper equipment, perhaps weighing no more than 16oz more, you could:"

I don't get this question.
If you get in this situation, (south of Forester), you don't stay put anyway.
How is setting up a tent and getting in supposed to help you in lightning?
You keep moving.

In the day, you get wet, at night, I wouldn't be south of Forester if it was going to rain.
There is so much emphasis on rain. A rain jacket is not going to keep you dry in a monsoon.
Mostly a rain jacket just doesn't breath when moving at a good pace. It becomes more of a hindrance than anything.
In solid constant rain, you have to slow down and I would have an Event jacket. In the sierras, a rain jacket while moving fast is about the same need as needing a gun for bears.

At least I don't put a down vest on that would get wet and then sleep in quilt that isn't warm enough without the vest. On top of that, your quilt gets wet???

Sometimes less is more.

I don't mind the criticism at all.
It's funny that I'm explaining why an item isn't needed. I would like some feedback for items that would make sense to bring in favor of ditching another heavier item to save weight.

On my speed attempt, I didn't need a bear canister. Asked the rangers and they said having sleeping gear implied "camping", where anyone can have food in a day pack and take a nap. I would love to ditch both the quilt and canister. It just did not work out with the sleep last time. I even brought a 9 ounce synthetic jacket and 6 ounce synthetic pants to take those naps in. Brrr... another 4 ounces for the quilt is well worth it, but then the canister goes.

So maybe a warmer jacket and pants? I mean as long as it's less than the sum of the canister?
Oh, I'm such a baby and need sleep.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/01/2013 14:19:50 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Your post on 08/01/2013 14:11:51 MDT Print View

No , 35 miles a day is not cocky, it's just great mileage.
Writing that" this is how you do it" and HYOH is overrated and you know better- that is cocky.
Could just have posted your list and the replies would have been different. At least you changed it around a little.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 14:43:51 MDT Print View

Hike your own hike, putting one foot in front on the other for 35 miles a day on a trail does not sound fun at all to me. I enjoy the scenery, exploring around off trail, relaxing and fishing at a lake, getting plenty of sleep, ect. You must get the most enjoyment out of pure physical exertion.

I suppose if you are hiking fast and steady your fleece lined windshirt will keep you warm while wet. I often go hiking in the rain without a rain jacket, just a fleece or wool sweater under a windshirt. I just get way too hot in a rain jacket unless its real cold and raining.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/01/2013 17:49:46 MDT Print View

"Asked the rangers and they said having sleeping gear implied "camping", where anyone can have food in a day pack and take a nap."



Code of Federal Regulations
Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public PropertyVolume: 1
Date: 2007-07-01Original Date: 2007-07-01
Title: CHAPTER I - NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Context: Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property.

"Camping means the erecting of a tent or shelter of natural or synthetic material, preparing a sleeping bag or other bedding material for use, parking of a motor vehicle, motor home or trailer, or mooring of a vessel for the apparent purpose of overnight occupancy."


So -
If you walk thru the night and nap during the day, you are not camping.
If you are not camping, a bear canister is not required.

I assume the same of true for National Forests.

Very Interesting....

Edited by greg23 on 08/01/2013 17:53:35 MDT.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Minimalist hiking on 08/01/2013 18:10:30 MDT Print View

Aaron,
I love this debate. I think some of the reaction you are getting is do to the nature of your hiking. Many cant realize how insulation layers really aren't needed when you are constantly moving at a brisk pace. As far as rain gear your ground sheet can provide protection in the event that you need o be wet and warm vs. wet and cold. I have employed this tactic on dozens of Sierra trips. The worst case was huddling in a hailstorm on the High Route covered in my ground clothe. It worked fine.

Finally, as far as canisters. If you look at the map where they are required could you out hike the mandatory areas. Yosemite in a day wouldn't be that tough especially SoBo. The area from Pinchot over Forester looks pretty straight forward as well. I haven't followed up on any additional areas that may need a canister over the last few years but these two could be hiked through with a long but very doable day.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Minimalist hiking on 08/01/2013 18:13:12 MDT Print View

The reaction he is getting is not due to the nature of his hiking, but to the tone of his original post, very edited by now.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/01/2013 18:14:05 MDT.

Katy Anderson
(KatyAnderson) - F
rain gear and shelter on 08/01/2013 18:18:45 MDT Print View

Leaving rain gear and shelter at home and encouraging others to do the same is bad practice in my book. We all get wet, cold and tired at times and then it is crucial to have a shelter. Your gear list, svelte as it is, still includes some extraneous items such as iphone charger and extra batteries. Leave those at home and bring your cuben tarp along instead.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
"What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (this is how you do it)" on 08/01/2013 19:00:23 MDT Print View

"Mostly a rain jacket is just a hindrance; it won't keep you dry anyway...I have a 5.5 oz North face jacket..."

Is that the Triumph anorak? I own that jacket. It doesn't breathe for crap. It will wet out from the inside if you wear it while hiking. But a decent event jacket will do much, much better. I reaffirmed this fact last June when all of the weather reports were wrong and a major system moved in. My Rab Demand didn't wet out at all in many, many hours of sleet/rain. No inner wetness either, although admittedly the temperatures were cold. I would have been in trouble in that Triumph anorak: hypothermia.

Here's a possible scenario: you need to make 35 miles a day. Your food rations and mindset require it. Here comes an actual two day rain storm, or one day. In your plans, you're going to hunker down and wait it out; in reality, you're going to press on. And get very cold on those sleeting passes, which take a lot of time to climb over, especially when you're cold. Know thyself: will you really hunker down? If not, bring a real rain jacket.

Edited by book on 08/01/2013 20:55:44 MDT.

M G
(drown) - F - MLife

Locale: Shenandoah
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/01/2013 19:10:31 MDT Print View

I don't disagree with those who say you can stay warm while moving fast. Problems arise when you get hurt doing so, especially if the weather is bad when you hurt yourself or turns on you while you are immobile unable to quickly escape to a trailhead or lower elevation. All of a sudden you can no longer maintain that speed with a severely sprained ankle. You get soaked, cold, hypothermic etc... It's easy to think that being fast and in good shape equals safe and indestructible. It's just as easy to slip and f-up.

That's when you want enough gear to shelter yourself and stay warm with. I hope you have enough.

In your shoes I would consider a cuben poncho tarp and an additional warm synthetic layer to wear underneath. It will be hard to keep record setting pace in a poncho but If the weather goes poop you'll probably bail anyways and a poncho tarp would allow you to do so more safely.

Other questions on the gear list:

1. Besides foot tape, no other first aid items? Pain killers?
2. Water treatment?
3. Soap or sanitizer to wash hands, would suck to get diaorrhea from poor trail hygiene
4. Wouldn't an extra pair of socks be nice to change into at some point?

Not sure when you are planning your hike. I'll be on the southern part of the JMT in the second half of September. Hope to see you see on the trail. And I also hope it doesn't rain (but snow would be fantastic).

MG

Edited by drown on 08/01/2013 19:12:51 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/01/2013 21:23:23 MDT Print View

Oh, just found the map at.

http://www.sierrawild.gov/bears/food-storage-map

I can easily get through those areas as long as I get sleep before going into Vidette and at Reds.
The canister gets to be taken off the list.
Not sure what the weight of the bag and hanging items will be yet.


1. Besides foot tape, no other first aid items? Pain killers?
2. Water treatment?
3. Soap or sanitizer to wash hands, would suck to get diaorrhea from poor trail hygiene
4. Wouldn't an extra pair of socks be nice to change into at some point?

1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No

If I hurt myself which is just packing an insecurity with extra gear that then makes you hurt yourself.

I'll be starting Sept 7th.

It seems everyone see's it that it is a must to bring a rain jacket.
I guess I wil just bring my 9 ounce synthetic jacket. It will stay warmer when wet and is much more water resistant.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/01/2013 21:54:23 MDT Print View

You only need a canister in YNP, Pinchot to Forester, and on the east side of Whitney, IF you are "camping" in those areas. If you are just "passing through", no canister is required.

Inyo requires "storage designed to protect food from bears", or some phrase like that...
Inyo was fine with Ursacks last year. Don't know what has changed for this year.

Per "Sierra Hikes -

Happy Isles to Donohue Pass is 37
Pinchot to Forester is 28

..although I thought Pinchot to Foresters was closer to 32.

I've done it both ways.(From Whitney to TM.)
Personally I found a canister to be conducive to "stop and sleep anywhere" with minimal fuss.

Obviously "Your Mileage Will Vary".

Good Luck.
Have Fun. (Type III, I believe)

Edited by greg23 on 08/01/2013 22:14:10 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/01/2013 21:58:09 MDT Print View

Aaron will be fine. He is going to have almost 13 hours of sunlight per day. If he is in good shape he can average around 3 mph, most of us can't on that trail. He can hike during poor weather at night to stay warm -- most of us would retire to a shelter. He relishes these kinds of challenges, most others don't.

Hobbes 1
(Hobbes)
What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/02/2013 07:18:44 MDT Print View

Aaron, since I know you're capable of getting yourself out of trouble, I'll reply to your points with the intention of perhaps informing others.

"A down vest doesn't keep you warm in rain. This is what the 19 ounce quilt does."

I also have a homemade 19oz down quilt built from the TH kit, including an M90 shell. While Paul makes some strong claims about M90, I wouldn't trust it as a bivy. That's why I take along a silnylon tarp - an extra 10oz. Last year, I was between Langley & Whitney under perfect skies @ around 11.5k, but decided to stay in a clump of (stunted) trees, rather than push on 400 yards to exposed granite. I still put up my tarp, even though I like to sleep out. In the middle of the night, some monsoon flow hit with all the works. Lesson: always have the tarp at least ready.

However, my quilt is typically wrapped up tight in my (homemade) compression sack & shoved into the bottom of my pack, with my BV450 sitting on top, and then the rest of my clothes wrapped in a turkey bag at the top of the pack for quick access. I can't think of a situation where I'd want to be digging through all that to get my quilt to keep my warm if I was holed up for an hour or so waiting out a T-storm. My layering system would then be: vest, windshirt (I have a Houdini), then poncho/garbage bag.

It might be me, but I'm getting colder these days as well, so even though my quilt is good down to 30, the vest helps had another 5 degrees or so. My down vest weighs 10oz, extra weight I don't mind carrying. So, now I'm up to 20oz extra, but I'm pretty confident I can comfortably hold out against wet & cold, night or day.

"If you get in this situation, (south of Forester), you don't stay put anyway.
How is setting up a tent and getting in supposed to help you in lightning? You keep moving."

Maybe I'm just sensitive to lightning. If you can stay warm & keep moving, then go for it. But the chance of getting hit doesn't leave any margin - it's pretty binary, yes/no. So, the idea is to find some cover, pull out your pad, put on your poncho/garbage bag, and wait it out.

As for the comment, "stupid light", it really is apropos in the big scheme of things. Here's a for instance: as everyone knows, we had another low snow winter in the Sierra this year, so a lot of water sources are either dried up or highly suspicious. Typically, I've just drank straight up without filtering, but sometimes used tablets.

A few weeks ago, I was using full tablets between two 20oz gatorade bottles just to make sure each bottle had enough time to do its thing. So, instead of carrying 1 container of 16-20oz of water, I was now carrying another 20oz at all times. There's my tarp+quilt weight. Even worse, I took along an empty 1L platypus that I actually ended up using through some sections where there weren't any (good) water sources. So, know I'm carrying 2-4 lbs of extra water, which is blowing out all my SUL attempts.

Last, but not least, even though I'm extremely careful planning my food, I still had at least 16oz *too much* food. Add all this up, and I'm carrying somewhere between 4-5lbs of extra weight - in this context, trying to save a few ounces on important weather gear seems futile. But the funny thing is, I really didn't notice carrying the extra weight. It's not like it's question between 45lbs+; rather, it's the difference between 15 and 20lbs, 4lbs of which is nothing I can control due to the water issue.

Stupid light: skimping on stuff that has a very high utility to weight relationship.

Edited by Hobbes on 08/02/2013 07:20:17 MDT.

canyon steinzig
(myparka)
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/02/2013 11:56:49 MDT Print View

just finished my second JMT this summer.
I feel strongly that a tarp should be taken. You should count on rain/hail/sleet and snow. If you don't get ANY then be stoked you were smart enough to be properly prepared for that.

I'm ok with no rain jacket although the weight savings at this point is negligible. It seems more conceptual than practical.

I'm happy your cooking with esbit because the fire they start in a protracted cold rain might save you some real suffering.

Lose the inflatable in exchange for closed cell for sure. Multi-use and safe.

Down vest? I would never go without at least that level of insulation in that country (brought FF Hyperion) but you could if you had a tarp to keep your bag dry.

A Must have for a fast packer is a thin warm (microfleece/marino to go under a wind-shirt
Again I'd take a 50z rain jacket (mine is sil-nylon) mostly because the vapor barrier warmth factor is so much greater that in a wet wind-shirt.
I've found that I can maintain warmth moving in wet down to 40's (ie 50 and windy) if there is a vapor barrier.
If I warm up I strip to wind-shirt.
My down insulation does me no good hiking in rain because it's in a compactor bag waiting save my butt

BTW, your assessment about sleeping under a tree is probably/often correct.
However the scenario (in my experience) is often as follows:

You are just below a pass and the sky opens. Your forced to wait for hours (I spent 12 below Muir) where I was cozy under my tarp in my bag. You would be unhappy and wet. Then if the storm goes from bad to worse instead of clearing (which it will do in the Sierra)you get to build an illegal fire dry things. Dangerous and not particularly effective.

All this points back to a tarp, any tarp from $10 blue to Cuban. Sil for me.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/02/2013 13:40:40 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by greg23 on 08/02/2013 13:41:38 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/02/2013 13:41:19 MDT Print View

My main reason to ditch the tarp in favor of the drop cloth was in favor of not bringing hiking poles.
I like hiking poles but the pack weight doesn't justify bringing them. They then just get in the way, even when fastened to the outside of the pack. When I'm tiered I also seem to leave them behind about once a day and have to go back to pick them up. The JMT is also technical enough that they get in the way while using them at times. My brain is crap when I'm tired.

I don't see how honkering down with a tarp and staying dry is any different than having my drop cloth over me and staying dry?
Again, I've been up in the sierras many times and even in rain, this is not an issue. If I do have to stop, I would just go to sleep anyway.
If it calls for some rain, I'll just bring the large size 8x6 ground cloth.

I changed my top to a synthetic jacket, so being cold is no longer an issue. This jacket has a dual 5 oz layer in the front and single on the rest, (it is warm).


Funny, everybody is telling me that I need a rain jacket then when a 1st timer posts his JMT list, he gets tis reply:

"Clothing: You really don't need your Cap 4 pants. Not that cold in Aug. The Houdini pants are also unnecessary as is the rain gear. Rain storms are short and warm in the Sierras. The Houdini jacket should provide plenty of rain protection and wet legs probably won't kill you. I'd also leave the Polar Puff at home. The down vest is also overkill but a fleece probably weighs about the same. Either will be plenty when layered with the Houdini."

I would not even tell a first timer that.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/02/2013 14:30:29 MDT.

Kevin Garrison
(kgarrison) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area
Klymit on 08/03/2013 22:43:36 MDT Print View

I took the Klymit Airbeam on my recent JMT thru-hike and it lasted exactly 3days before it punctured. I used it with a Borah Stealth pack. I'm not sure what punctured it but I think it may have been my bearikade weekender. I also found the location of the inflation bulb to be a hassle. It was great while it lasted but I was extremely disappointed by its performance. You may have a few uncomfortable nights sleeping if your ha e a similar experience.

Overall, I love your gear list. You definitely have a good feel for what it will do for you and the safety margin that it provides. Enjoy the time.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Klymit on 08/03/2013 22:49:57 MDT Print View

"I took the Klymit Airbeam on my recent JMT thru-hike and it lasted exactly 3days before it punctured."

How did you recover?

--B.G.--

Kevin Garrison
(kgarrison) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area
Klymit Recovery on 08/04/2013 10:42:38 MDT Print View

I used my puffy to create some padding in my pack. A Bearikade on the spine is not a lot of fun. For those wondering, I did not carry a patch kit. Making due without the Klymit made me realize that it wasn't necessary to begin with. Unfortunately, I still had to carry it for the next 10 days with zero value. I was jealous of the PCT hikers with their GG sit pads. Not for the extra padding but for the ability to have an easily access pad to sit on during extended breaks.

I should note that GG offered to exchange the pad as they said that neither they nor Klymit had seen a failure. I'm more than a little suspect as the Airbeam pad uses fairly fragile material for something that is stuffed into a pack. I have not bothered to return it however as I don't see spending more money to ship it back when I now consider it to be an an unnecessary luxury item.

Edited by kgarrison on 08/04/2013 10:44:33 MDT.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
rock on Aaron on 08/05/2013 17:15:41 MDT Print View

List looks fine to me.

I just want to know what fastpacking is. Sounds like a lame attempting at making backpacking less fred-like than it always will be.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: rock on Aaron on 08/05/2013 19:20:00 MDT Print View

David,
Just in case you missed it -

Dennis Ahern on the JMT

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: rock on Aaron on 08/05/2013 20:39:41 MDT Print View

Thanks for that link Greg. Loved the Bach, and especially the pole cam. :-)

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
fastpacking on 08/05/2013 21:06:21 MDT Print View

To be a fastpacker do you have to wear a pack a size too small?


In all seriousness, very nice backpacking trip.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
David Chenault: watched him naked while wearing his pack? on 08/06/2013 13:16:25 MDT Print View

I'm no expert, but can you really tell his pack is too small unless you (1) see him naked while wearing the pack or (2) feel under his pack hip belt while he's wearing it? I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I've ben told the hip belt should go OVER the pelvis bone, not above it and not below it. How can you tell where it is?

His shoulder straps seem to go up and over his shoulders, forming an upside-down "U" shape, which they tell me means the pack is not too long.

rOg w
(rOg_w) - F - M

Locale: rogwilmers.wordpress
deleted on 08/06/2013 13:46:17 MDT Print View

deleted

Edited by rOg_w on 09/08/2013 18:00:07 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Thread drift on 08/06/2013 14:12:25 MDT Print View

Hmmm... I am sure his TOTAL pack weight was pretty light. Probably doesn't matter.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Thread drift on 08/06/2013 15:59:40 MDT Print View

"Hmmm... I am sure his TOTAL pack weight was pretty light. Probably doesn't matter."

+1

Plus I think it is unworthy to be snippy about a guy who can do that many miles per day! The East German judge deducts 0.5 points for bad style.

Edited by millonas on 08/06/2013 16:03:08 MDT.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: Thread drift on 08/06/2013 18:58:34 MDT Print View

Dennis Ahern JMT 2012 Fastpack Gear

Starting weight was stated as 30#, including clothes worn, but not water.

When he pulled out the bear canister with food his pack came in at 19.5#

And I noticed that between the weigh-in and the hike the pack changed.

So, +/- on the weights, but still, surprisingly heavy.

Edited by greg23 on 08/06/2013 19:00:58 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thread drift on 08/06/2013 19:17:19 MDT Print View

While hiking in sierras this year I came across the very first PCT hiker and the very last PCT hiker.

The last was by a guy named Oxen.
He was consuming over 5000 calories a day and had two full canisters and was carrying over 100 pounds for up to 8 days oh hiking.
Since everyone says hike your own hike; Well you can have that hike.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/06/2013 19:37:00 MDT Print View

I think you can cut more weight and Items out of your system.

- T/P - you don't give a wait to it but 5 days of Toilet paper is at least 3 oz and can easily be left behind by bring a 1/2 ounce of soap.

- MP3 Player - 1oz - this is a pure luxury item
- Water - there are lighter but less durable options for water. You could probably save 1/2 oz
- Phone and Charger -- Luxury Items

Air beam and pump. Even at max weight of 15lbs on your back I don't thing you need a pack frame so adding the pump seems like dead weight. Would a 1/8 pad provide better padding for sleeping and stiffnes for the weight?


I like your no rain jacket, no extra insulation philosophy. If there is no around the camp time that extra insulation isn't needed and your ground sheet works as an emergency tarp / Poncho.

The only item I might add is a big black garbage bag as if you did get injured this item would allow you to hike slowly out in the rain at the cost of less than an ounce. Although your Polycro ground sheet might allow you to do the same.

Have fun, I have only ever done overnighters with an SUL kit

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/06/2013 20:16:39 MDT Print View

Greg,

Thanks for the insight.
I always wipe with nature first and depending on how bad, 1 TP wipe usually works, so should be less than an ounce of TP.

Yes the MP3 is a lux item.
The phone is for both pictures and just in case something happens and my car is at Whitney Portal (hence the charger).

I will change the poly to a large sheet, 3.65 ounces as a just in case item and can also take the place of the trash bag.
Trying to get a 40" width poly sheet to cover you isn't that fun.

Lighter options on water yes, but none with a wide mouth.
Have no idea why they can't make soft bottles with a wide mouth.
Sure there are zip-top ones but they weigh a lot more than a gatorade bottle.

I have heard of someone doing the JMT with just a straw. Hmmm...

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike on 08/07/2013 16:29:56 MDT Print View

I totally get your fast-pack philosophy and what you're going for. It's not meant to be "comfortable". I wish you good weather and good times. I'll be in the region (slow-packing) a few weeks before you.

Someone previously quoted the regulations for the area, and I'd like to add an opposing opinion on their conclusion:

Code of Federal Regulations
Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property Volume: 1
Date: 2007-07-01Original Date: 2007-07-01
Title: CHAPTER I - NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Context: Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property.

"Camping means the erecting of a tent or shelter of natural or synthetic material, preparing a sleeping bag or other bedding material for use, parking of a motor vehicle, motor home or trailer, or mooring of a vessel for the apparent purpose of overnight occupancy."
They concluded that, "If you walk thru the night and nap during the day, you are not camping.
If you are not camping, a bear canister is not required."

I think that's a slight misunderstanding of the language of the reg. -- in law, commas used in a law/reg. are generally interpreted as an "or", rather than an "and" -- which means that is you erect a shelter OR prepare bedding material -- you are "camping" in the sense of the reg., regardless of whether it's day or night. A NAP would mean that you're just lying down temporarily (without bedding or shelter).

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
agreed. on 08/07/2013 17:49:06 MDT Print View

> If you walk thru the night and nap during the day, you are not camping.
If you are not camping, a bear canister is not required.

"...preparing a sleeping bag or other bedding material for use... for the apparent purpose of overnight occupancy."


I'd say if you head into the backcountry overnight and plan on sleeping at some point, I think you are camping. Definitely don't agree with the interpretation that if you walk at night and sleep during the day for several days, somehow you aren't camping.

Edited by DaveT on 08/07/2013 17:51:43 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: agreed. on 08/07/2013 22:13:41 MDT Print View

The one thing I can say about this is that the 2 rangers I came in contact with were in areas where you can hang.
I'm pretty sure I told him I'm hanging and just hiking strait through the areas where the canisters are required.

I was also using a striped down 1200 ci pack, so it wasn't like I could hide the face that I didn't have a canister.
Both rangers did tell me the same thing though and had zero care that I didn't have one.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Re: agreed on 08/08/2013 11:30:04 MDT Print View

Aaron, I am with you that we have to remember the PURPOSE of the bear-proof container rules. If you're not going to stop and sleep in the areas where containers are required, then you're NOT required to have a container! But the rule is there to prevent bears from finding UNATTENDED food belonging to a sleeping hiker (regardless of whether the person is sleeping during the day or at night), and to discourage bears from associating "campsites" with yummy, easily-available treats. Clearly, what you are planning to do is not going to result in your food being unattended...and no bears will be harmed in the process! :~)

Bradley Attaway
(AttaboyBrad) - F

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Too much philosophy on 08/08/2013 15:11:31 MDT Print View

Legal interpretation and philosophical purpose are well and good until you're dealing with the enforcement of that law, which is essentially up to the rangers. I no longer hang my hammock in SF city parks not because the law prohibits it (which it certainly does not) but because the Park Rangers will cite me regardless if I don't take it down because that's what they've been told to do.

I likewise carry a bear canister when I do to protect myself from citations much more so than bears.

Call ahead. Ask the Park Rangers if hiking straight through is adequate excuse to travel without a bear canister. If they say it is, ask to get it in writing or at least for a name that you can cite if you get hassled. The fine for not having one is pretty hefty, and they're a pain to fight even if you're in the right.

If you don't, I hope your moral victory is worth more than the fine you'll have to pay or fight ;-)

Edited by AttaboyBrad on 08/08/2013 15:22:07 MDT.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Squat on foam under a tarp or inside a tent? on 08/08/2013 15:48:55 MDT Print View

Aaron said: “How is setting up a tent and getting in supposed to help you in lightning? You keep moving.”

Previously, Hobbes said: “…lay out a CCF pad & assume "the position" (no, not that position - the anti-lightning squat.”

Could you combine the two and assume the squat on a foam pad under a tarp or inside a tent? In both cases, the shoe soles are providing protection from a lightning hit, but with a squat, the foam pad adds another layer of protection.

Randy Martin
(randalmartin) - F

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/08/2013 17:14:08 MDT Print View

@Aaron "Have no idea why they can't make soft bottles with a wide mouth." Nalgene Canteen but reviews on REI unfortunately seem to indicate they are not very durable so maybe not the best option.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (simplicity at it's best) on 08/08/2013 17:21:40 MDT Print View

"Have no idea why they can't make soft bottles with a wide mouth."

Because typically the seperate lid needs to be a rigid plastic because of screw threads and openings. If you put a rigid plastic lid on a soft bottle, and then if you squeeze it, the lid pops off and lands on the trail. You can beat that problem, but it requires reinforcement to the top of the bottle around the screw threads, and that adds expense to the manufacturing process.

--B.G.--

Joshua Ellis
(jbaysurfer) - F

Locale: West Coast
Sierra has no plural... on 08/20/2013 20:02:49 MDT Print View

LOL..I wrote a whole huge post but felt bad after reading it.

Just drink with a straw, leave the electronic bling behind along with the chargers and spare batteries and carry some painkillers so there's a reduced chance of SAR being required for an extraction.

That'll save you some weight, and yeah, it rains in September. And snows. ;-)

Edited by jbaysurfer on 08/20/2013 20:06:19 MDT.

Dan D
(TXBDan)

Locale: Boston, MA
Re: Sierra has no plural... on 08/21/2013 13:35:12 MDT Print View

I hope you guys know that the idea that rubber soled shoes will protect you from lightning is false.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Lightning protection on 08/21/2013 16:02:33 MDT Print View

I wrote: "...assume the squat on a foam pad under a tarp or inside a tent? In both cases, the shoe soles are providing protection from a lightning hit, but with a squat, the foam pad adds another layer of protection." I did NOT say that shoe soles provide COMPLETE protection. Otherwise, why bother to add another layer of protection? I meant that they provide SOME protection. Being inside a fire lookout with multiple lightning rods MAY come close to complete protection. Not all hits are direct hits, and not all are totally devastating. My points are: (1) getting foam between you and the ground is better than not doing so, and, (2) why not be protected from the rain by being under a tarp or tent while you do the anti-lightning squat?

Scott Bentz
(scottbentz) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Calories on 08/22/2013 12:08:14 MDT Print View

Aaron,

My son is planning on a 7day JMT trip and was wondering how many calories you are alloting per day. This post has been pretty helpful. What type of canister are you taking?

Thanks,

Scott

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Calories on 08/23/2013 18:35:36 MDT Print View

Scott,

No canister.
Here is the map of where you have to have a canister.

http://www.sierrawild.gov/bears/food-storage-map


I am going to sleep before the cut at Bubbs Creek.
And then only sleep at Reds or Tuolumne towards the end.
I'll keep all the food scent completely separate to keep the sent off the pack.

I don't really count calories, just bringing 10 pounds of high calorie food.
I'll do about 30% of my calories mixed in water with Hammer Jel Heed.
The Heed helps more with electrolytes and potassium and would rather drink some free calories even though Heed isn't that calorie dense.
If I'm going fast enough it will last to the end. If not I will resupply at Reds and/or Tuolumne.

The two things with food.
After 2 days, you cannot stomach gels, and eating solid foods like trail mix becomes really hard after a few days when you are exhausted. You have to chew each mouth full forever to get it down.

I have also ditched my synthetic jacket for my Montbell Ex Light. and brought my 2.2 ounce homemade wind jacket.
I will never wear the synthetic while hiking and the down jacket is just as warm and the same weigh (with the wind jacket).
The wind jacket can be used in the rain as well, and I'll actually wear it while hiking.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
bear can on 08/24/2013 11:17:17 MDT Print View

For me, hiking thru Yosemite 37 miles in a day to avoid a bear cannister, would negate the reason for going there at all.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: bear can on 08/24/2013 12:13:47 MDT Print View

I plan on hiking a lot more than just 37 miles a day.
To me, this is "fun".

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: bear can on 08/24/2013 14:57:21 MDT Print View

"I plan on hiking a lot more than just 37 miles a day.
To me, this is "fun"."

That is the bottom line for each of us. Enjoy your trip.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
yep on 08/24/2013 15:27:04 MDT Print View

I agree, thats why I said "For me"

I frequently hike long days, even some night hiking, I have harbored ideas of just hiking all night long before too. But I dont miss the scenic parts of a trail to do it, because that is why I go. If Im in a green tunnel, then dont care.

And there are those that start at 10am,stop at 3pm, carry 50lb packs that think Im a nutjob.

Different strokes for different folks.

Assuming sobo, 7700 ft elevation gain the first day might be a beeyatch though needing 37+ miles done.

Edited by livingontheroad on 08/24/2013 15:38:39 MDT.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: yep on 08/25/2013 17:33:10 MDT Print View

"I agree, thats why I said "For me"


then why post it? other than to knock his trip and make yourself feel better somehow?

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
post on 08/25/2013 18:18:13 MDT Print View

"then why post it? other than to knock his trip and make yourself feel better somehow?"

Why did you post this, to show your a jerk?
Well done.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: post on 08/25/2013 18:21:09 MDT Print View

Why did anyone post anyway, one could ask..
Nothing was asked here; OP was showing us how it's done.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: post on 08/25/2013 18:22:13 MDT Print View

there are dozens of JMT list threads to post about hiking gently through Yosemite.. why post in the one where the guy is running it with certain goals that have nothing to do with you or what you think is fun. I'm pretty sure he's said that he has done the hike multiple times and others in the area so he's seen it.

Aaron did you post when you are leaving? I'm psyched for this trip report.

Edited by JakeDatc on 08/25/2013 20:39:38 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (all packed up) on 08/30/2013 23:39:52 MDT Print View

I have made a few changes due to the large amount of rain recently in the sierra's.
I'll update the list of what's in the pics in a bit.

I am at just over 16 pound pack weight with just a few caffeinated gels and some cheese to add.
Items that are not pictured that are in the list are in the bags.qwe

I am really happy with what I have. It all fit easily in the pack.
I need a narrower smaller pack that still fits as good as the ULA and still transfers weight to the hips.er

I have way too many packs that fit the bill but all my smaller packs have waist straps that go around your stomach, so all the weight is burdened on your shoulders.ty

I've broken my right arm and my left clavicle, so the small pack do not work unless I am SUL.df

It will be nice having a pack that is easy to be able to grab stuff on the go.xc

I'll be starting early Sept 8th.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/30/2013 23:42:52 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: What I'm Taking on my JMT Hike (all packed up) on 08/31/2013 17:15:00 MDT Print View

Arron,

Repackage the oatmeal, instant potatoes, and Mountain House food in zip-locks or freezer bags to save some weight and volume. Plus you can cook the food in a freezer bag.

Shawn Peterson
(afterdarkphoto)

Locale: Nor Cal
esbit on 09/01/2013 16:54:31 MDT Print View

i didn't read on all 4 pages...but beware of alcohol stoves and esbit....not allowed this year in parts of the JMT....getting caught could be an expensive venture and there were plenty of rangers out and about in the southern half two weeks ago

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: esbit on 09/01/2013 17:06:46 MDT Print View

Thanks

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/01/2013 20:09:48 MDT Print View

Actually I just finished the JMT two weeks ago and alky and esbit stoves ARE allowed. I asked over and over and over, every single ranger I came across, all along the trail. Not one of them thought the fire restrictions had anything to do with what type of stove you could use. The signs all over Kings Canyon actually said "no fires at any elevation. Stoves ok."

When I brought up the definition of a stove, and whether or not alky/esbit stoves counted, not a single person of importance had any idea what I was talking about.

Bring whatever stove you want.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: " Alky/esbit on the JMT" on 09/01/2013 20:34:35 MDT Print View

Jenn, while I have no doubt whatsoever about what the Rangers told you, and I see the same thing here in Colorado and Wyoming about the Rangers not understanding the fire bans (and there is really no excuse for that), alky stoves are specifically banned currently in Yosemite/Seqouia/Kings Canyon. Esbit stoves, which I personally think are the safest, aren't mentioned but the allowed stoves statements doesn't include Esbit. There's probably a low chance of being fined for using an alky/Esbit stove, since the Rangers don't even know the rules, but you can indeed be fined for it.


Yosemite:

Fire restrictions:

No smoking and no building, maintaining, attending, or using a fire, campfire, or cooking fire (including charcoal fires) within Yosemite Wilderness or at the High Sierra Camps. Portable stoves using gas or pressurized liquid fuel are allowed. Alcohol and "Sierra" stoves may not be used in wilderness under these restrictions.


Sequoia/Kings Canyon

Stage 2

EXTREME

No wood or barbecue fires permitted at any elevation. Gas or propane stoves are permitted at all elevations. Alcohol stoves are prohibited.

Scott Bentz
(scottbentz) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Thanks Aaron on 09/02/2013 10:34:01 MDT Print View

Aaron,

Just want to thank you for your interest in my sons JMT hike last week. I have been a member of BPL I think since about 2008 and it has enabled me to take my friends and family on some awesome hikes doing decent miles per day on often limited time schedules. I hiked 27 miles with my wife and daughter in order to finish the HST early to pick up one of our group that had an overused IT band. I often hike with family 20 miles a day. This is all due to BPL and the back and forth we find on this Forum.

So, as you know, and I didn't know at the time he left, my son actually had his mind on finishing in 5 days more or less. I think he saw Mark Davis' trip report kind of stayed close to it. He left the top of Whitney at 3:00 pm Monday and hit the Happy Isles sign at 5:00 pm. Saturday. He has a trip report almost done but is driving up to Utah right now to start his fall classes. He said he'll post it soon.

I kind of get a kick out of his effort as he really didn't put too much thought into it. He told me a few days before he left that he was going to do it. He got lucky with weather with only a few drops here and there and had to deal with smoke from the Rim Fire as he entered into Yosemite. I think up until then the smoke had been heading north. He also passed people we had passed the week before as we were on a North Lake South Lake hike. They were JMT hikers and we saw them at the Paiute bridge. He met up with them again 10 days later between Forester and Tyndall.

Thanks again for your help and interest.

Scott

Shawn Peterson
(afterdarkphoto)

Locale: Nor Cal
Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 17:05:04 MDT Print View

Careful on giving advice when there is disparity. My reason for bringing this up Jenn was for him to be aware that some areas they absolutely were NOT allowed.

True there are some rangers that aren't aware of all the new rules...some of them are seasonal...but as Aaron posted...they were not allowed in certain parts of the trail and it is a FAT fine and a possible permit pull.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 20:59:29 MDT Print View

I guess I myself am just way confused as to where this regulation comes from. Where I picked up my permit in Yosemite? All three rangers there unequivocally said the fire restrictions do not apply to stoves. The rangers we saw along the way? All unequivocally said all stoves were fine. There was no confusion in their answer, they knew what alcohol and esbit stoves were...and they said absolutely they were allowed. The hand-written signs throughout Kings Canyon? " no fires at any elevation. stoves ok."

Where did you find the regulation you posted?

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 21:19:42 MDT Print View

YNP , at the bottom

SEKI


It doesn't make sense that issuing rangers would not know, or that backcountry rangers would not know, but I am not surprised.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 21:23:53 MDT Print View

Jennifer, SEKI made a press release on June 27 which took effect on July 1. In the backcountry, wood fires were specifically banned, and gas stoves were specifically allowed. However, that left some categories in limbo, namely Esbit and alcohol. Due to that confusion, I contacted SEKI and they replied that Esbit and alcohol burners were prohibited as well. It's too bad that they did not make it clear in the press release.

So, a backcountry patrol ranger may not have email access, so he may not have been aware of the clarifications.

--B.G.--

Shawn Peterson
(afterdarkphoto)

Locale: Nor Cal
Re: Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 21:35:52 MDT Print View

http://www.nps.gov/seki/naturescience/fire-restrictions.htm


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=79602

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 21:42:47 MDT Print View

Even the YNP page makes no sense. What restrictions?


Trails and Wilderness

Trails in Yosemite may be closed when there are hidden hazards or when they are impassable due to rock fall, snow, ice, or fire. Open trails aren't necessarily free of hazards--by entering the wilderness, you assume responsibility for your safety and must use good judgment. Trails not listed below are open, but may be snowy and very difficult to find from about November through May/June (and may have other hazards).

Trails in the northwestern part of the park, including the Hetch Hetchy and White Wolf areas, are closed due to the Rim Fire.
The Half Dome cables are up through October 14. A permit is required to hike to the top of Half Dome when the cables are up.


No smoking and no building, maintaining, attending, or using a fire, campfire, or cooking fire (including charcoal fires) within Yosemite Wilderness or at the High Sierra Camps.

Portable stoves using gas or pressurized liquid fuel are allowed. Alcohol and "Sierra" stoves may not be used in wilderness under these restrictions.



(This does not affect picnic areas and frontcountry campgrounds.)

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 21:48:03 MDT Print View

What's a "Sierra" stove?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/02/2013 21:49:11 MDT Print View

"What's a "Sierra" stove?"

I suspect they mean a Sierra Zip Stove which uses twigs as fuel.

--B.G.--

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/03/2013 10:26:42 MDT Print View

IM JUST SO CONFUSED..........

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Alky/esbit on the JMT on 09/03/2013 10:31:14 MDT Print View

"No smoking and no building, maintaining, attending, or using a fire, campfire, or cooking fire (including charcoal fires) within Yosemite Wilderness or at the High Sierra Camps.

Portable stoves using gas or pressurized liquid fuel are allowed. Alcohol and "Sierra" stoves may not be used in wilderness under these restrictions.


(This does not affect picnic areas and frontcountry campgrounds.)"

IM JUST SO CONFUSED..........




You said it!

There is nowere in the above rule that has anything to do with esbits.
Although someone else posted it, now I am see 2 seperate rules.
So which one applies/

No wonder the rangers don't know what to enforce.