Bill's SUL Gear List
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Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Bill's SUL Gear List on 07/08/2005 17:54:57 MDT Print View

Making a few of the items myself I have been able to reduce the weight of the "overnight hike weight" to something real close to the one pound mark. For an overnight hike I would carry 3 Ebsit tablets and find a couple of stones to support my cook pot. The items listed Home-Made would be made by me. The big difference in weight is from a much lighter fabric I use. I would make a new pack bag sort of like the G6 but at less than 2oz total weight. I have already made a pack bag bigger than the G6 with side mesh pockets and a full front mesh pocket that weighs 2.10oz. Finding a way to drop another 4 ounces to get to the 1 pound mark is going to be hard. I think I have 2 ways this might happen:

1. I will have to modify my clothing so I can add down baffles at night to both a shirt and a pair of pants to take the place of the Down quilt. When I can do that 1 pound will be easy to get under. My Down Baffles are 3.5" around by 78" long with 1oz - 800+ Down in them and weigh less than 1.5oz
each. I don't need 1oz of Down in the Baffles for summer.

2. I think I can make a Pack Bag at or just under 1oz. This would give me a 1 ounce drop. Then adding this to a way to turn my clothes into some type of structure for a Down Quilt at night should give me a 3oz drop more or less.

I have just gone with another "clothing worn" list for awhile. I would use one of my home-made trekking poles at 2.8oz and my trail runners. I would add my light weight digital camera.

I will work on a new Pack Bag first and then see how much weight I still need to drop.

1 • Home-Made G6-Clone-Pack Bag 2.00oz or less
2 * Home-Made mesh kitchen bag- homemade 0.10oz
3 • Home-Made - bag 0.30oz
4 • Home-Made small stuff sack- shelter 0.12oz
5 • Home-Made Poncho/Spintarp x-lite 2.00oz
6 • Home-Made ground cloth- small 0.60oz
7 • 6 Vargo Shepherd's Hook Ti stakes- 1.20oz
8 • Bozeman mountain works aircore spectra 1- 40’ (.16 oz) 0.16oz
9 • Home-Made Down Quilt 9.00oz
10 • Rocks used for pot stand 0.00oz
11 • Ebsits to cook 3 meals using rocks for a pot stand (3 Esbits) 0.00oz
12 • Waterproof matches w/ trick relighting birthday candle 0.30oz
13 • Sterno Can Cook Pot 0.38oz
14 • Homemade foil lid 0.10 oz
15 •Taco Bell plastic spork 0.10oz
16 • Homemade u.l. first-aid kit (1-1.5 oz) 1.50oz
17 • Deet in BMW small dropper bottle (.15 oz) 0.15oz
18 • Home-Made Balloon Bed-w/balloon pump 0.60oz
19 • 2 Home-Made 1L Water Bags 0.80oz
20 • Katadyn M1 tablets- 6 (.18 oz) 0.18oz
21 • 1 pair golite classic socks (1 oz) 1.00oz

4.44oz+15.20oz=19.64oz
Total weight: 19.64oz (minus food, water & fuel)

Items Worn on Body:
• ACR Emergency whistle (.2 oz)*
• Photon micro light (.2 oz)*
• Small pocket knife (.5 oz)*
• Tilley Hat
• Golite c-thru s/s shirt (4 oz)
• Golite mens boulder shorts (5 oz)
• Golite classic socks (1 oz)
• My trail runners weight 28oz per pair
• GoLite Wisp pullover (2.5 oz)
• Home-Made trekking pole 2.8oz
* Digital Camera

Edited by bfornshell on 07/09/2005 15:39:56 MDT.

Thomas Laepple
(tlaepple) - F
Re: Bill's SUL Gear List on 07/08/2005 19:37:14 MDT Print View

home made down quilt 0.9 oz ??
I don´t understand

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Bill's SUL Gear List on 07/08/2005 19:53:45 MDT Print View

Thanks, I wondered how I got below 1 pound so easy. That should be 9oz though for summer it may be less. I changed the main list.

On a lighter side I am using a type of Down called Cuben Snow. It is so light it is hard to keep on a scale.

Now does anyone know what Cuben Snow is?

Edited by bfornshell on 07/08/2005 20:08:43 MDT.

Jordan Calicott
(ShortmanCal) - F

Locale: Arkansas!
Cuben Snow on 07/08/2005 20:10:37 MDT Print View

Bill,
Do you know where I could get some of the Cuben Snow down?

Al Shaver
(Al_T.Tude) - F - M

Locale: High Sierra and CA Central Coast
Cuben Snow Down on 07/09/2005 05:14:54 MDT Print View

Only rarely manufactured, sporadically distributed and quickly and quietly snatched up by cognoscenti, Cuben Snow Down is produced by infusing Ice Nine with high pressure Argon gas and then feeding it to Northern Ukranian Snow Loons. Birds don't start producing until their fourth year and less than 5 grams of top quality down clusters are produced by each loon per year.

Fortunately, with a fill power of over 3000 cubic inches per ounce (as verified by BPL scales) it only takes a few birds to produce one 8000 Meter Parka or 20 degree sleeping bag.

As this product is virtually never available there is no known market price. The only people I know of with suffient cash and connections to purchase products made with this material are the Casino betters who bankroll Team Laurel Mountain Designs' annual effort to prevail in Le Monde Monte Carlo Remote Adventure Survival Race Of Death. See <mountainlaureldesigns.com>

For more information on Ice Nine, refer to Kurt Vonnegut Jr.'s technical paper on the subject entitled "Cat's Cradle".

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Cuben Snow Defined on 07/09/2005 14:43:30 MDT Print View

Let me start with Alan's comments:
------------------------------0-----------------------------
1. Only rarely manufactured, sporadically distributed and quickly and quietly snatched up by cognoscenti, Cuben Snow Down is produced by infusing Ice Nine with high pressure Argon gas and then feeding it to Northern Ukrainian Snow Loons. Birds don't start producing until their fourth year and less than 5 grams of top quality down clusters are produced by each loon per year.

2. Fortunately, with a fill power of over 3000 cubic inches per ounce (as verified by BPL scales) it only takes a few birds to produce one 8000 Meter Parka or 20 degree sleeping bag.

3. As this product is virtually never available there is no known market price. The only people I know of with sufficient cash and connections to purchase products made with this material are the Casino betters who bankroll Team Laurel Mountain Designs' annual effort to prevail in Le Monde Monte Carlo Remote Adventure Survival Race Of Death. See <mountainlaureldesigns.com>

4. For more information on Ice Nine, refer to Kurt Vonnegut Jr.'s technical paper on the subject entitled "Cat's Cradle".
--------------------------0--------------------------------

Alan: Just so the folks in the "MLD Black Helicopters" don't come looking for you I will only say you were closer than you want to be on a couple of ideas in pare 1 - 2 & 4. As for pare 3 all I can say is that "Professor Fate" aka Ron Bell? is after it but has been foiled at his attempts to get the secret of Cuben Snow so far by Leslie and his man Hezekiah.

Several years ago the Russian Space Industry built a module for the new Space Station. They had to insulate the walls but didn't have the money to used the type of insulation the US modules used. NASA had a super insulation created and the machinery to produce it. The Russians did not have the money for this type of insulation. The Russians had to come up with something just as good but more "home-made". They had to go back many years to WWII when the solders of the USSR were issued a pouch of sorts to wear over there private parts. This kept them very warm and their were able to handle extreme cold weather. This pouch had been but knitted by Russian Peasant women out of the Down of the, you guessed it, the Great Northern Ukrainian Snow Loons. They had learned to spin this special Down into a fiber. This technique had been a long kept secret but now it had to be revived. Quite by accident the Snow loon keepers discovered that they could accelerate the growth of the Loons by feeding them food rich in Cuben tobacco leaf. This is where the nick-name "Cuben Snow" came from. The flock grew fast and by the time the insulation was required enough Down had been produced and turned into the necessary insulation. The spinning of the Down is still a closely guarded secret. This unique insulation was mentioned in a PBS Special made about the Russian Module. The TV Special talked about how the insulation was made by hand by a group of very old Russian women but didn't cover the real story. How the Down was processed. I saw this TV program and just thought how interesting.

I am a hand spinner and weaver though I don't do a lot of spinning anymore. I was in a Spinning Workshop presented by a noted New Zealand artist a few years ago and three of the other workshop members were Russian women. Two younger and one old. It turned out to be Great-Grandmother and Granddaughters. They had been in the US for a few years. The younger women spoke very good English and had been English teachers in Russia. They told me there Great Grand Mother had been given a large amount of money for working on a special Space Station Project and she used the money to immigrate to the US with them. I said Oh was she one of the group that made the insulation for the Russian Module? They about fell off their chairs. They were stunned. I told them I only said that because I had seen a TV program about that. The Great Grand Mother wanted to know how much they told about the insulation and I said "nothing". She then told me the story of "Cuben Snow". Over the next several months the four of us became very good friends. When she taught me how to process and spin the Cuben Snow she just said she would trust me to be careful about who I shared the technique with. She had gotten a small amount of the "Cuben Snow" out with her by stuffing it into home-made pin cushions and children's stuffed toys.

The Down was truly amazing stuff. Its loft was almost unbelievable.

The end result is a "woollen" style yarn that has really great loft. If you understand the different ways wool can be spun you will understand the term "Woollen". This is then knitted or woven in a lose sort of way to allow the yarn to loft to its full size. The main reason for using the Down in this way was to gain full advantage of the Down insulation but use much less Down to achieve the same loft. You also have a control over the Down yarn that you don't really have with lose Down in Baffles. The insulation quality of the Down from the Great Northern Ukrainian Snow Loons was so great that a small amount of Down went a long way. Out of necessity this technique developed. The spinning technique made It possible to take full advantage of this type of Downs great insulating ability and use no more Down than necessary.
Since they could not produce more birds back then they could make more things out of a smaller amount of Down.

The flock of Great Northern Ukrainian Snow Loons from the Space Module Project were released back to the wild after the Space Module was lunched into space. There are rumors from time to time that a small flock is being garthered deep in Sibera and there is a search on for anyone that knows how to process the Down. It seems there is another nation with space plans that is interested in the technology.

Edited by bfornshell on 07/09/2005 22:41:47 MDT.


(Anonymous)
Cuben Snow-- the real story on 07/09/2005 19:17:14 MDT Print View

I think you guys have been using a little too much Panama Red.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Cuben Snow Defined on 07/10/2005 11:59:00 MDT Print View

I am not sure what Panama Red is but I guess I should have posted these pictures of "Cuben Snow" that I took a few days ago. They are taken with a black background for the best contrast. The pictures show full loft and partial loft. It is a shame that more of this stuff isn't available. This is the main reason I make everything in a way that I can move my Down Baffles from item to item.
Image hosted by Photobucket.comImage hosted by Photobucket.com

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
cuben snow on 07/10/2005 13:30:57 MDT Print View

so that's what they use in fireworks

I believe the earlier poster felt that somebody was smoking something funny, high priced, and full of THC.

Edited by kdesign on 07/10/2005 13:37:21 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Bill's SUL Gear List on 10/23/2005 15:45:34 MDT Print View

Edit from below.

Edited by awsorensen on 10/23/2005 15:53:39 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Bill's SUL Gear List on 10/23/2005 15:52:37 MDT Print View

Hey Bill,

I am new to this site and have already learned enough to get to sub-5#. I know this post is pretty dead but I'm just keeping it alive because it does't appear that you have resolved the issue of loosing the 4 ounces that you are trying to.
There are a few items on your list that you could really cut down on. Some are skeptical but like you say "It doesn't have to be comfortable".

1. The Knife.
I mean come-on who really needs a knife that weights a 1/2 once when you're trying to go sub-uber. My knife is a small plastic razor knife that has breakable blades. I broke the blade so that only the last 1/2 inch sticks out then cut the knife in half to were it works when the blade is inside it's handle. Last I drilled holes throughout the handle. Finished weight - 4 grams or .1 ounces. You could even take the inner piece that holes the blade and make your own lighter handle for it and find something to cover the blade that would cut the overall weight down to about 2 grams (about 1/10 of the weight of your knife) and it still serves the same purpose yours does.

2. Wind Shirt
Get The lightest pertex wind-shirt that breaths better and is lighter than the go-lite. Cut the sleeves and make it so you can velcro them back on. This will be your normal hiking shirt and will still work for what is designed for with the sleeves velcroed on.

3. Shirt
Now make a super-lite camp shirt out of some of that light weight silk you have.

4. Whistle
There is one side of the ACR Emergency Whistle that is louder than the other. Just cut the thing in half toss the useless side and finish cutting the lanyard holder off the end. Finish weight - 3 grams or .1 oz

5. 1st-Aid kit
Does your 1st-aid kit really need to weigh 1 - 1 1/2 oz for a short weekend trip? That's a lot.

6. Matches
They don't need to be water-proof if there sealed. Strike anywhere matches are much lighter. You can also cut the matches in half. It doesn't take much to light a candle. Also I don't think it would take a whole candle over a weekend trip? This will cut the fire-kit weight in half.

7. Balloon bed and pump
Just blow the balloons up once at home and you can easily blow them up. Then you can ditch the pump. I got a cap off of the little Hammer Gel bottles and plugged it so I can inflate the balloon, put the cap on so it doesn't leak, then twist the end and use one of the rubber band used for braces to keep it from leaking over night. Now take the Hammer Gel cap off and move to the next balloon. Now you can reuse the balloons for 3 or 4 nights before they eventually stretch more and more with each inflation and pop. My balloon bed holder is just a bottom and sides with 3 strap pieces going across the top. Mine weighs 1oz with the cuben fiber it would weigh about 1/2oz and the total weight of your balloon bed with a few extra balloon would be less than 1 1/2oz.

8. Hiking Poles
You can take off an easy ounce just by ditching the pole and using the lightest carbon tent pole you can find.

Hardly any of it helps with the pack weight but by putting these into effect it will have a little bit of help with your over-all "overnight hike weight".
Just calculating it in my head it would come out to about 6 1/2 ounces.

Edited by awsorensen on 10/24/2005 13:29:38 MDT.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Bill's SUL Gear List on 10/23/2005 16:11:24 MDT Print View

Aaron,

>>" find something to cover the blade that would cut the overall weight down to about 2 grams"

just in case you are interested, pretty much any knife blade should be able to be made safe by covering the cutting edge with tape - even Scotch tape will do the trick. I'm not recommending Scotch/"Magic Tape" for backpacking (duct tape might be better), just stating that even a very thin, relatively fragile tape like Scotch tape can be used. Scotch tape is frequently used in Philipino Martial Arts training to cover the cutting edge of a Balisong or other type of knife for training purposes - to avoid some type of injuries when training. In my experience, it works very well. Obviously, the tape needs to removed for use - hence duct tape being a better choice for backpacking.

Edited by pj on 10/23/2005 16:18:05 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Bill's SUL - Ultimate AT Dream List on 10/23/2005 16:49:21 MDT Print View

Aaron, Thanks for taking the time to suggest so many items. I have been busy on a few other things and haven't been able to get back here. One of the things I am working on is the "Ultimate - SUL - Dream Gear List" - for an AT Thru-Hike. The timing for the Thru-Hike would be more or less April to Sept. Re-supply would be planned for 3 to 5 days and a hoped for mileage that would allow for an average of more 3/4 day resupply stops The list would be very flexable and planned to allow for adjustment as the weather dictates.

Some items that make the "list" maybe still in the "virtual reality" dream zone. This is OK since if we can think of new stuff we would like to have - we/I/someone - may be able to make them.

I expect to make/test most of the fabric related gear out of Cuben material and light weight Silk. Most everything should be multi-use. Cleaver design is the key.

The "Dream List" will be open to any imput as the more brains involved in the ideas/items stage the better the final list will be. Current or announced gear when it seems to be the best item is also good. We don't need to reinvent the wheel but there is never anything wrong with a better mouse trap or lighter.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/26/2009 20:09:12 MST.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Bill's SUL - Ultimate AT Dream List on 10/24/2005 13:32:37 MDT Print View

At first I thought this was a list for a weekend trip. If your thru-hiking it, I guess a 1 1/2oz medical kit would be neccesary. Can't wait to see what the list works its self down to.

Edited by awsorensen on 10/24/2005 18:00:45 MDT.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
cook pot on 10/25/2005 19:36:09 MDT Print View

my scale at home is only accurate to a tenth of an ounce so this weight may not be correct,but tonight I made and tested a 8fl oz cookpot out of a sprite can. I cut it about 4 inches from the bottom and on my scale turned out to be .3oz. I tested with the rock suport and esbit as well as with a mini zen stove with pot extention. It boiled faster with the alcohol stove but that adds weight so is not for you.I found that if I chose the right rocks they could act as a wind barrier. there is about 3/4 of an inch from the 8oz mark to the top of the pot so it dosent boil over.
Good luck with your thru hike, take care.
RyanF

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
a little lighter on 10/25/2005 20:26:00 MDT Print View

you may be able to cut some weight if you make your own stakes using the latest product in the gear store
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/titanium_rod_stock.html

you should also start working on the contest. Im sure you will find something to make with theese rods :)

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
SUL Cook Kit on 10/25/2005 20:50:00 MDT Print View

Curret lightest Cook Kit: Everything you see except the Band-Aid can weights 0.98oz. The Sterno can stove with a 1/2oz of HEET will boil 8oz of water in 3.5 minutes in my kitchen. Water starting out was 70 degrees F. This was a really hard rolling boil that was shaking the cook pot.









Edited by bfornshell on 10/25/2005 20:51:47 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Pot Lid on 10/25/2005 20:59:49 MDT Print View

Hey Bill,
What are you using for the pot top. I want one.
My guess is it's cut from the top seal piece that you peel off of a coffee container.
Nice pics! The 2nd to last picture looks like the pot is getting ready for take off.
I also want to see you start working on the contest. It would be a nice winter project and will get you reved up to make the last few pieces of gear for it, and I still have a ton more ideas that may help.

Edited by awsorensen on 10/25/2005 21:12:21 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Pot Lid on 10/25/2005 21:47:57 MDT Print View

"Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen ) SUBJECT NEW Pot Lid ON 10/25/2005 20:59:49 MDT POST REPLY
Hey Bill,
What are you using for the pot top. I want one.
My guess is it's cut from the top seal piece that you peel off of a coffee container.
Nice pics!
I also want to see you start working on the contest. It would be a nice winter project and will get you reved up to make the last few pieces of gear for it."
===============================
It is a "top seal" that is a good word for it. It is from a NESCAFE Brand - Cafe' con leche Instant Coffee. I drink a couple cups of this most everyday and now that it is getting a little cooler I expect to drink more. I have saved a stack of the seal things. You need to pull a little in each direction and get it started or they sometimes tear. I find this product at Wal Mart in the Latin or Mexican food area. The bar code number is 0 28000 45000 7. If you don't find it ask someone to put the bar code number into their computer and see if they sell it. The seal thing is just a little over 3.5" across and I used just as it came off the can.

The picture shows a wood stove I just made using one of the empty Nescafe cans from this coffee so you can see what the can looks like. The stove works really well without a fan. I am about to make version 2.

I also just saw the add for the titanium rods and contest. I am sure I will be ording some of the ti rods. I first used Ti bike spokes with the stove stand in the above pictures. I went to Aluminum rod as they were a lot lighter than the Ti spokes. I think these Ti rods Ryan is selling are about as light as the Aluminum rods I used and the Ti should be stronger.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/25/2005 21:55:20 MDT.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Steel Can & Fire Grate? on 10/27/2005 10:45:07 MDT Print View

Bill,
More inspirations from our friends in Japan?
Does that use the 'tordnado' principal?
And is that a 'vorticized' brasslite?

Edited by jdmitch on 10/27/2005 10:46:56 MDT.