Forum Index » Philosophy & Technique » How do you pack your fuel?


Display Avatars Sort By:
Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
How do you pack your fuel? on 07/27/2013 21:02:37 MDT Print View

Being one of the heavier items in the pack, fuel would ideally ride mid-to-high in your pack and next to your back, and (in theory) also next to your water supply which would be your other "super heavy" item. But packing fuel INSIDE my pack, next to my water, and above my bag...? Unsettling. Putting it in an outside pocket would be safe but (1) uses up a handy pocket for something I don't access but twice a day and (2) would not be placing a heavy item in an optimal position. What to do? Do you wrap your fuel bottle in a plastic sack for double security? Or other tricks of the trade?

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: How do you pack your fuel? on 07/27/2013 22:25:21 MDT Print View

This speaks to my day job - cleaning up petroleum-contaminated soils and groundwater.

For the ULer, there's no concern in my mind. Butane and propane are highly, highly volatile. If anything leaks and you light a match, you might blow up or burn your mustache off, but no toxic compounds will get into your food or drinking water. They will waft away in the breeze AND those low-molecular-weight compounds aren't very toxic or carcinogenic. Ethanol isn't toxic unless you swill many ounces of it. The methanol used to denature ethanol IS toxic, but I'm more concerned about your exposure during use (sit UPWIND of your alcohol stove! and have a lean, not rich flame!) than during storage. Leaks of methanol will evaporate quickly and while there may be some damage to coated fabrics, it wouldn't permeate your food or drink that are in a different container.

If, however, you are packing white gas, it does have some benzene (a known human carcinogenic) and other, related compounds. And, as a nominal liquid, it doesn't volatilize away as quickly as a butane or propane. My suggestions:

- Buy a new gasket for your fuel bottle every 2 years. Those gaskets often last 4 or 6 or more years, but if you're worried about it, splurge 75 cents and get a new gasket.

- Crack open the fuel bottle after your last use of it, to relieve pressure.

- Pack the fuel bottle upright.

- an outside pocket is better than in the main pack bag.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: How do you pack your fuel? on 07/27/2013 22:51:57 MDT Print View

My fuel is carried in the same red and white cardboard box that in came in, and it is impossible to leak or slosh.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: How do you pack your fuel? on 07/27/2013 22:59:04 MDT Print View

"My fuel is carried in the same red and white cardboard box that in came in, and it is impossible to leak or slosh."

;)

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: How do you pack your fuel? on 07/28/2013 04:56:20 MDT Print View

For WG, I always use a simple soda bottle. I mark it fuel, and use a different type bottle than my drinking water (gatoraid bottles.) I also expand them with a touch of heat to make what I call a fuel cell. The bottle typically weighs about 1 ounce, give or take. I make a seperate cap with a piece of vinal from stripping some 12ga household wire. This is great for priming and for filling. A slightly smaller hole is needed then carefully the tube is heated in hot water and worked through. Dry thuroughly with some TP, and superglue it in. No, the superglue does not stick all that well, but it hardens the whole joint some. I tried epoxy, but this comes loose after about a year.

These bottles are tough. I have jumped on them and they do NOT break. Under extreme pressure, you might blow the top off by jumping on them. I have one that has had fuel in it for over 5 years. Note that Auto Gas has additives that *can* soften/disolve the plastic. I rarely use it, anyway. In a different thread, a gentleman also uses these for pumping and feeding his Whisperlite. I use a SVEA, so I never tried that. (I get around 10g fuel per liter. Boiling water is slightly less but I also simmer/cook a bit.)

The same bottle also works for Alcohol. The tube is a great filler, AND, it sucks up excess fuel out of a stove. Note that the higher water content, if any, is easily diluted in the rest of the bottle.

The density for WG is around .78. So, .78 * 12floz is about 9.36 oz (weight.) Adding in about 1 ounce for the bottle is 10.36 for a weeks supply of fairly high density fuel. (Roughly WG is ~20,000BTU/lb, Butane is ~21,000, Methanol/ethanol blend is about 10,500. Butanes need a pressure container, about 3.7oz/4oz fuel to transport, though, making only slightly better than alcohol. WG/Alcohol just needs a 1oz bottle for 10oz weight. However stoves for WG are *heavy* and most are not very efficient. Esbit is about 13000BTU/lb, but does not simmer, nor, is it easily adjustable and it leaves a residue like wood.)



For 7 days out



A stove and fuel is one luxury with camping I ALWAYS have.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you pack your fuel? on 07/28/2013 06:48:19 MDT Print View

4oz canister inside my .7l pot. i always hated worrying about leaks, spills etc with white gas.. then alcohol so i'll take a few oz for convenience.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Inside? on 07/28/2013 09:30:12 MDT Print View

Interesting replies, thanks. When carrying alcohol (denatured ethanol), does that still warrant being carried outside the pack? Or can a poly bottle, inside a plastic bag, be stored inside the pack?

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Inside? on 07/28/2013 12:16:41 MDT Print View

In about ten years of using them, I have never had one leak. Still, I pack it in the outside pouch.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
fuel on 08/04/2013 07:27:40 MDT Print View

Fuel is not heavy.

For me, 8 days fuel weighs 3.8 oz.

It always goes in outside pocket.

Even if I had a bottle of white gas, it would go in the outside pocket. Not ideal, but the best place for it. It could go next to water bottle in side pockets, but would aggravate me getting/replaciing water bottles.

Edited by livingontheroad on 08/04/2013 07:32:37 MDT.

Daniel Collins
(Diablo-V)

Locale: Orlando FL
fuel containers on 09/02/2013 05:03:57 MDT Print View

Nice to meet another SVEA owner.
Why mess with trying to glue PVC wire insulation to HDPE bottle caps when you can simply swap for a flip spout cap that works every time ? I'm talking about the caps used for solvent bottles such as gun cleaning solvent, widely available from companies such as Tipton. I would not trust them for storage/transport, but would use the standard cap for that. You can extend the flip spout with a bit of slip on silicone tubing, self sealing to the spout.

Auto fuel contains toluol/tolulene which can attack the polycarbonate plastic of water bottles.

My Go-To UL fuel container is a leftover 8 OZ poly oval squeeze bottle with a flip cap that never leaks. I have a few and can get more if you need one. They are 1.1 oz empty with cap. They are from Sherlock Gas and Air Leak detector, Type 1, used in the aerospace industry. I don't know how to post photos here .....

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: fuel containers on 09/02/2013 06:47:37 MDT Print View

Daniel,
Yeah, Toluene, et al can eventually ruin a plastic soda bottle. I don't really try to glue the tubing to the cap. More to harden the joint so it remains fairly stiff. Last time I made one (a few weeks ago,) I used an old ink container from a Bic pen. The small tube seems much stiffer than the vinal from the wire. It also seals the hose against any leaks.

The SVEA is a good little stove. Many people don't care for them. They ARE heavy for what they are...heavier than others, even including an external pump. But, over the course of a week or two, they break even because they are just very efficient with fuel. They are simple...no moving parts 'cept the valve...durable, reliable and compact. I use a windscreen around mine for the shorter 1L burns. I have tested it to .23oz per liter, but in the field it is closer to .27-3oz per liter, including priming. Or, about 8gm per liter boiled. Because I cary the fuel in a soda bottle, it is much better than a canister at about 50/50 weight fuel/can. One of these days, they will decide an all aluminum or Ti one will be much lighter.

Roger Caffin is making some custom canister stoves that work as well. I have one on order and will try that with a couple canisters. It might be better, because the stove is so light and you can still use a full windscreen. But I have to get about 5-6gm/per liter to make it pay over the SVEA. We'll see...

Daniel Collins
(Diablo-V)

Locale: Orlando FL
SVEA on 09/02/2013 07:47:50 MDT Print View

I keep my SVEA because it is an industrial masterpiece in the context of the time period in which it was designed and even now. I would only take it snow camping where I need the efficiency of WG, or motorcycle camping where a few extra ounces is not an issue. With the optimus mini pump it is very simple to use. A titanium SVEA would be brilliant, but the tech to weld titanium is far above that to silver solder brass, ditto for the machining, but I would pay any price for one. Kickstarter anyone ?
I have two cannister stoves,the SVEA, and a Trangia 28T, but I am planning on a Caldera Tri-TI system soon.
Oh yeah - I guess the titanium SVEA would still need the brass burner to conduct the heat to the tank eh ? Being the poor conductor that titanium is. Not sure how those two metals get along.....

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
SVEA on 09/27/2013 16:09:43 MDT Print View

The current SVEA design relies on the metal it's made of to make it work. If you change the metal you have to change the design. I don't know the details, but it is my understanding that making it out of TI would require to large of a change.

Edited by Hitech on 09/27/2013 16:45:54 MDT.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
SVEA 123 for a new generation? on 09/27/2013 16:25:59 MDT Print View

>"The current SEVA design relies on the metal it's made of to make it work. If you change the metal you have to change the design. I don't know the details, but it is my understanding that making it out of Ti would require too large of a change."

The brass burner assembly conducts heat down the assembly to pressurize the tank. And then the tank needs to conduct heat from its top to its sides where it touches liquid fuel. Titanium has 1/4 the thermal conductivity of brass, so you need a "pipe" of four time the cross-sectional area. Titanium is about half the density of brass, so the weight would be twice as much. Aluminum is lighter than brass AND more conductive, but not good at the high temps of the burner head. Potentially an aluminum tank could be part of a solution, though.

When low-cost 3-D printing with titanium becomes available, we're all going to line up, aren't we? Before tweaking burners, through, I'd get HX pots up to 80% heat recovery up from the current 30% for plain pot and 50-55% for available HX pots.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
3D Printing... on 09/27/2013 16:48:44 MDT Print View

"I'd get HX pots up to 80% heat recovery up from the current 30% for plain pot and 50-55% for available HX pots."

Let me know when you do so I can get one too!

Alpo Kuusisto
(akuusist) - F - M
Re: SVEA 123 for a new generation? on 10/01/2013 02:13:32 MDT Print View

>"The brass burner assembly conducts heat down the assembly to pressurize the tank. And then the tank needs to conduct heat from its top to its sides where it touches liquid fuel. Titanium has 1/4 the thermal conductivity of brass, so you need a "pipe" of four time the cross-sectional area."

Or you could shorten the pipe, but then the design and feel wouldn't be the same as with original Svea.

>"When low-cost 3-D printing with titanium becomes available, we're all going to line up, aren't we?"

Already packed the gear to sleep in the queue for a few days. Tell me when you find out where the store opens please?
Some stuff, like silent buner caps could maybe already be printed quite cost effective, but then the design and feel wouldn't be the same as with original BernieDawg.

Edited by akuusist on 10/01/2013 02:15:03 MDT.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
SVEA 123 for a new generation? on 10/02/2013 14:03:53 MDT Print View

Get the fuel cap that allows use of an external pump, then no matter what, you can pressurize the tank. Although, with the 123's design, you'd need a midipump that is angled to allow it to attach to the cap while the windscreen is in place. Gary's burner caps fit a number of stoves. The mini will work on my 123's, all the 8's, 8R's, 80, 71 so forth. The midi cap will work on MSR "X" stoves. The Dragontamer on the MSR DragonFly.
Duane

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: SVEA 123 for a new generation? on 10/02/2013 14:37:22 MDT Print View

"Gary's burner caps fit a number of stoves."

Who is Gary?

--B.G.--

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
SVEA 123 for a new generation? on 10/03/2013 19:13:53 MDT Print View

Bob,
Gary is the personna behind Berniedawg (BD) caps, he has a large variety of stove caps on the bay of evil. I have three of his caps, I've also camped with him and a few other stovies at a stovie camping trip to OR two years ago at Diamond Lake.
Duane