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Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 17:26:54 MDT Print View

Of course I will ultimately do what I think I need to but since I value the opinions of the members here I always want to hear what they think before I make any changes

I have been considering 800 for sure for the X cost is right between the 750 and 850 price weight too but the weight increase of 750 was a lot less than I expected only 3oz on a 6'6" WIDE 0* is not really much for this price point and it holds my prices where they have been very successful for us so I've been going back and forth a lot for sure

I appreciate everyone's input and opinions on this.

-Tim

Edited by MarshLaw303 on 07/22/2013 17:28:10 MDT.

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: play the color option on 07/22/2013 17:40:04 MDT Print View

Of the email exchanges with people hunting the base model and learning about options or whatever, are there any 'wishes' they have expressed that could be incorporated ?

Other than higher FP :^)

Stuff that makes the base model more interesting to them or easier (although a quilt aint hard)... To be honest I can't think of anything myself.

Earlier, I suggested a choice of color. I think this would be really interesting for some people. Mmm, well, you do offer a choice, of course.

I have actually looked at your site. Quite often. I am sure I knew you offered a choice but forgot.

I might list color choice as a feature [It isn't a performance feature, but it is a fun 'I like my quilt' feature]. It is one compared to companies that offer no choice. Maybe have a picture of a red quilt or whichever. Little squares indicating the colors by the drop down boxes. People will read specs or look at graphics before checking dropdown boxes. I think. I associate olive drab with your quilts...

I know the dropdown boxes aren't hidden but remember the question 'how do I know which colors are M90 v2 or v3'... Be sure people get this info during decision making before they really key on the dropdowns to make a purchase. If the color info is listed somewhere other than the dropdowns, I apologise. Sometimes I find a snake. Sometimes it finds me.

I would offer to help with pictures... I think it might be something I could manage.

I hope this doesn't come across as any web site bashing :^0

Edited by Tan68 on 07/22/2013 17:45:07 MDT.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: play the color option on 07/22/2013 18:10:47 MDT Print View

Not having color pics is the biggest area I get feedback. I'm working on a big site upgrade and building a real photo station to get pics done right so I totally agree

I do have more color options than most other guys but it makes for a lot more stuff to stock but i Iook at is as a big part of making it more custom for my customers but still keeps it easy like building stock for me.

-Tim

Jeff McWilliams
(jjmcwill) - M

Locale: Midwest
RevX on 07/22/2013 19:35:53 MDT Print View

I have a 20 degree Rev X that I really love. It's my first quilt. Price/performance was definitely key criteria for choosing it.

When thinking about purchasing a lighter, more expensive quilt, I always ask myself, "Is dropping X ounces of weight worth Y dollars?"

I think the RevX is a great entry level quilt, so long as it actually represents an affordable quilt while still saving weight over a sleeping bag.

Not sure what to think about the duck down. How will it effect the feel, compress-ability, and weight of the quilt?

Thanks for making such great products.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: RevX on 07/22/2013 20:43:59 MDT Print View

I certainly won't use Duck down if it affects the quality negatively.

Most of us think of 550 fill when we think of Duck but 750 duck and 750 goose should be pretty similar in performance. Ill have samples shortly to compare. If the feather content is too high I'm not having it.

-Tim

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 20:54:58 MDT Print View

"SO while im at it let me test the new name out on you guys. ENIGMA"

Hmmmmm. It is my feet, wrapped in down booties, inside an enigma. No mystery there!

I like it. Looking forward to seeing your new design Tim.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Winter Quilts on 07/22/2013 21:36:52 MDT Print View

Eventually I will buy a revX winter quilt to use as an overbag. 750 fill vs 850 fill wont make a difference for me. Price will.

I really like the idea of holding the price down on the entry level quilt and offering distinct tiers with your products.

I also think you are right that offering choice of down will just lead to more questions from the average customer and drive no more sales to your product. Weight wise you will still be very competitive.

Also offering pink / purple in the RevX fabric would be great. My 2 year old loves her pink protoge, and you could sell another one to my wife with a pink revX as she wont replace her 3 lb sythetic without going to a pink bag.

Edited by GregF on 07/22/2013 21:40:41 MDT.

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
price on 07/22/2013 21:46:49 MDT Print View

I would add a drop down box with and choose which fill power to use. Let the customer have the option of spending more or less.

There's going to be people who don't buy because it's not 850, and some who don't because it's too expensive.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: price on 07/22/2013 22:04:33 MDT Print View

Looking for some new fabrics that might reduce the Revelation cost a little to close the gap some. Still really far off at this point but perhaps an option. Then you choose you fill by which product you choose and yes that fabric is still nicer than the 30d but the prices would get closer. Sourcing fabric for myself could be a game changer vs always going through a supplier. I'm starting the search well see where it leads.

-Tim

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: price on 07/22/2013 23:44:50 MDT Print View

> Then you choose you fill by which product you choose...

Makes sense.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/23/2013 06:23:05 MDT Print View

Any thoughts on bringing back the epiphany in some form?

If I do it will use the new baffles(sewn on like the early days), have a sewn side drawcord bottom foot box for venting and use a large nylon stripe on the shell for lofting and drying. It would use 850 downtek to deal with any moisture caused by the VB

thoughts?

-Tim

David Alexander
(davidta) - MLife

Locale: New York City
The Return on 07/23/2013 06:25:13 MDT Print View

I would love to see that!

Jason Mahler
(jrmahler) - M

Locale: Michigan
Re: Re: price on 07/23/2013 11:15:29 MDT Print View

Sourcing yourself can make sense, but this will likely only be a benefit about certain purchase quantities. With your current business model that may have 4 styles of down and a couple dozen fabrics (denier and color), it might be tough to get enough of a price break to count for much.

As for offering 850 in a RevX, it seems like there would be little incentive to upgrade to Rev, which would reduce its market. Add in the fact that the Enigma will further reduce the Rev market and I am not certain there would be much left. Not a big deal if using similar materials as either low or high end products.

How much more weight vs cost reduction in going to 700 or even 650 for a RevX? This would provide a lot more differentiation and allow the Rev to be more of a midline product.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Duck Down on 07/23/2013 12:29:58 MDT Print View

Back in the day (like 40 years ago) Betsy and I had sleeping bags filled with duck down. We used them for a number of years, mostly in Oregon, until we bought some lighter goose down bags. I don't think they were 750, probably not even 650! But they showed no collapsing over the time we used them. We still have a duck down comforter on our bed that is about 25 years old and still doing fine.

Based on this experience, I would expect 750 duck down to perform decently, but...it might not be quite as endurable as goose, and there is the public perception to deal with.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Duck Down on 07/23/2013 12:52:48 MDT Print View

Duck down is good. It often weighs a bit more, ie doesn't loft as well, but don't forget eider down is still considered the best. Eider is a duck. All duck downs resist water slightly better than goose down. So you get the benefit of added security in a wet environment. Generally the down feathers are a bit smaller, though they are a bit "stickier." Overfill is usually not needed.

Unlike the 900fill goose downs, they maintain loft even when damp. The newer dri-down may do better, this is a question in my mind. Generally lower fill downs (750-800) do better on long (>3 week) trips. 900 fill down tends to loose loft when damp.

Kind of a toss up, which you should choose to offer, Tim. I lean torwards durability and pay for that an a few extra ounces of weight. 900 fills are good for a week or two under damp conditions. 800 fill downs are good for 2-3 weeks. After a month on the trail, you cannot tell the difference between 750 and 900 if you encounter rain three or four times.

Good down has a shorter life expectancy, also. The fibers are finer, easily damaged by rolling around on it. Again, more of a toss up. You could easily justify whatever decision you make.

Rocco Speranza
(Mechrock)

Locale: Western NC Mtns
My thoughts on 07/23/2013 15:32:57 MDT Print View

I've read though most of what was posted here. I really like the ideas shown. Having bought a 10F RevX and a 40F RevX I'm really happy with them. The one thing I could get my head around is how you made them so cheap relatively, but I see you are fixing that now. Of course me and many others aren't going to complain about that though. ;)

I feel a price raise is in order for your quilts, or if anything lower the material quality and keep the same price. I'm thinking 3 types of Down quilts. (Can Substitute with Synthetic I guess)

Quilt 1:
Have your cheap RevX with 750 fill and maybe a cheaper 40D+ fabric if that's possible. (Maybe not even offer higher than 30D to keep it simpler.)(Also maybe add the option for 850 water resistant down at a larger price premium than the other quilts or not at all.)

Quilt 2:
This will be like the Rev now. Default to lighter material and 850 fill down. Give the option for 900 fill down and water resistant down.

Quilt 3. Cuben quilt with ability to have hybrid material. Same additional options as option 2.


Universal options:
1. Sewn foot box with length(Probably more popular for winter quilts)
2. The Water resistant down.


Probably will edit this...

Edited by Mechrock on 07/23/2013 15:49:50 MDT.

Peter Nash
(nash.p@comcast.net) - MLife

Locale: West Michigan
Epiphany / Cuben option on 07/23/2013 15:41:03 MDT Print View

Tim, somebody should sell Cuben fiber quilts. As far as I know, you were the only source other than MYOG. Cuben is the ultimate choice for a technical, high-end quilt option. But Cuben fiber cries out for the highest fill power available. If someone is buying Cuben they will not mind paying for the highest fill power down.

After I acquired an Epiphany earlier this year I was immediately sold on Cuben fiber quilts. (In fact, your quilts inspired me to make my own. I just finished my 2nd one, a 19 oz. three season quilt, after having made a 10 oz. summer one a month ago.) Whether you use 850 fill power or 900, downtek or not, count me as a strong vote for bringing the Epiphany back.

I do think that the baffles should not be sewn to the liner because it would detract from the vapor barrier benefit of the Cuben fiber. In fact, arguably downtek would be less indicated for a taped cuben quilt because there would be little chance for vapor to get inside.

I like the name Enigma alot, and I like the radically light weights you're aiming for. I also prefer sewn footboxes over drawcords.

It doesn't make sense to confuse your product lines by offering higher fill power as an option on the RevX. From both a production and marketing standpoint I think your instincts are right. Offer only 750 down on that line.

I'm keen to see your Enigma.

Rocco Speranza
(Mechrock)

Locale: Western NC Mtns
I think you are right. on 07/23/2013 15:47:44 MDT Print View

I'll change my post above. I think you should stick with the 750fill for the low end as well. Make people upgrade if they really want that extra weight savings and there will be a larger weight gap between the models then.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
Enigma inspired design for the Prodigy? on 07/25/2013 05:18:46 MDT Print View

Hi Tim (and BPL),

Have you thought about using an efficient Enigma-type design (i.e. sewn footbox with less material) with the Prodigy line? Due to weight, people usually dismiss synthetics, no questions asked. But I think you could change this, or at least have people give synthetics a second thought. To my knowledge there is no option for a synthetic quilt that can come within 2-3 ounces of its down alternative in weight. But Tim, I think you can change this, close the synthetic-down gap, and revive the synthetic market. Okay, maybe thats a little ambitious but here's my logic why:


Creating demand: A real option with synthetic quilts

A 40*F quilt is an essential temp rating to have in almost everyone’s sleep arsenal. At this temp rating, the weight disparity between down and synthetic is minimized. Below are the weight differences (and prices) between the 40*F Prodigy, Revelation, and new Enigma.

A. 40* Prodigy = 18.5 oz, $190 (6’ Slim, which is generously wide at 50”).
B. 40* Revelation = 14 oz, $240 (6’ slim, but likely jump to $260 ish in sept).
C. 40* Enigma ≈ 11oz, $350 ish (5’10” reg size)

The current Prodigy is 7.5 oz heavier then the new Enigma, but only 4.5 oz heavier then the Revelation. Due to the high cost of the Enigma (and Z packs) the reality is that the majority of people can’t afford it. So now it’s only a comparison between the Revelation and the Prodigy, thus a 4.5 oz difference. BUT if you could re-work maybe 2 oz off the Prodigy with a re-designed foot box (16.5 oz total), then its only 2.5 oz heavier than its 850 down alternative.

So why would you want to sacrifice 2.5 oz and rock synthetics??? Three reasons.

1) This “new” Prodigy would be $70 cheaper than the revelation.
2) The increase in versatility of synthetics over down. Wet down is useless, wet hydrophobic down is less useless but still not really useful, wet synthetic is still very useful.
3) Using a synthetic quilt can change your entire sleep system to match, and overcome this 2.5 oz difference. Without having to be cautious about wetting your down, you could use that 3.7 oz Wasatch bivy and not have to worry about condensation from the less-than-optimal breathability. You could use a smaller tarp because you don’t need the extra protection from rain’s backsplash. A 5.5’ x 9’ tarp is now a 4’ x 8’ tarp. For silnylon tarps, that’s about a 2-3 oz difference alone. OR, you could not bring a tarp (stakes and guylines) at all and rely on natural cover when it rains.


Market domination:

You could own the synthetic quilt market because it seems like there are just two major players in synthetics: you and MLD spirit quilts, which have almost identical specs (considering sizes and temp ratings) to your Prodigy line. Right now, there is really nothing separating you and MLD except for some minor size differences (which I guess could be a big deal to some people).

This argument holds less weight if someone introduces a 40* F, 11oz down quilt for around $260 instead of $360. I think (hope) this can happen, but it wouldn’t destroy the demand for the new UL Prodigy since synthetic will always have its niche, and you would still be the lightest option.

Those are my thoughts. I’d be interested to hear what you (and BPL) think about this. Thanks!

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Enigma inspired design for the Prodigy? on 07/25/2013 08:27:46 MDT Print View

I appreciate everyone's input. I'll be weighing your comments against samples and numbers to come up with what i hope is the right balance for each product.

Greg, I will most likely offer something with a closed footbox in synthetics down the road after i see the merits of it in the Enigma line first.

The issue is the footbox will be harder to do right in synthetics, not impossible but harder. It also wont be as big of a weight difference as the Down one changes footbox and uses 15% less down due to the increased baffle efficiency so two parts are at play but certainly a lower weight would still be gained from the footbox.

The biggest problem with synthetics isn't weight but bulk. The sewn footbox will reduce overall quilt length and therefore bulk but not in a significant way. They are still very bulky when compared to down and thats tough.

Synthetic above 45* has always been my preference, until my new Enigma was born. I'll be playing with that now at 10.05oz i cant get that low in a 50* prodigy of the same size even with a sewn footbox, im still around 13.5oz in that

-Tim