enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept.
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Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 10:00:27 MDT Print View

Hey BPL community I have some questions for you

The price of down is blowing up yet again and in Sept I will be forced to change prices to reflect this raw material price increase. I would like your input on my purposed changes and I would love a logic check to be sure i am staying true to what the market needs/wants

RevX is currently 30D nylon/850 down in KARO baffles w/20% overstuff weights 16oz-33oz $175-270 depending on sizes and temps

This is my biggest seller due to its low cost and high performance ratio (not the cheapest {cheapest quilt but not sleeping bag} or the highest performance but a good bend) In order to keep this ratio similar I am proposing the following changes, please give your thoughts about this change

RevX 30D nylon/750 down in KARO baffles w/20% overstuff weights 17oz-36oz $180-$290 (down is same price i pay now but it takes a little more so price goes up a tiny amount and performance down a small amount)

Im planning to keep the Revelation the same with 850 down in KARO baffles w/20% overstuff using 10/15D nylons with weights between 13oz-33oz with a higher cost of $250-$390 (quilt stays the same performance at a higher price due to down price only)

Im also designing a new down quilt that will use my same generous sizing but offer a sewn footbox and unique new baffles design which allows no overstuff (i'll do 5%). This quilt will be 10D nylon and 850 Downtek (might get 900 too). In 850 the weights will be 11oz-24oz for 40*-0* but with the sizes being 5'10" and 6'4" with my current REG and WIDE widths to start. Price on this will be more in line with what you expect from Zpacks and Katabatic at ~$360-$535 but this should be lighter.

I have a prototype of this design im currently testing that is 6'4" WIDE 50* (to test down shift in sew through baffles) that weighs 10.05 oz. A few small tweaks will be made to the production one and an option of more weather proof condensation stripes will be offered but the weight should be very very low.


Do these offerings make sense as a full line of entry level, med, and high performance down quilts at respective price and weight points? There is nothing i can do about the down cost but my thinking is these changes will keep me positioned with the most affordable higher performance quilts and I will once again be back in the running for highest performers with this new design

Does the Epiphany have a place in our lineup? New baffles with 850 Downtek could make it very light but allow us to go back to sewing the baffles for a more durable product with down that will resist the small amounts of moisture that can penetrate the liner. Thoughts?

Anything else i should be considering as I make these tweaks over the next month?

-Tim

Jason Mahler
(jrmahler) - M

Locale: Michigan
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 10:42:50 MDT Print View

Tim, your post alone is a great reason to use EE for your quilt needs. You not only let everyone know about a price increase well in advance, but you ask the people that are buying them what they want. I tried to answer a couple of your questions below, but am not that experienced, so may not be that helpful.

RevX - People buy this because they are looking for value, so I don't see why adding 1-3 ounces and keeping the price low would be that big of a deal. Looking at the market, I don't see much competition at these weights and prices, so I think you still have something with this one.

Rev - The new price point still seems like it is considerably below the market, but I have not compared weights that much. You may have already done it, but putting together a market study (products this line is competing with, price, weight, features, etc) could help you out in regards to understanding how this one will sell. One trick is understanding if your competitors will be increasing prices in the future as well or if they have some type of hedge against down prices (doubtful, but you never know).

New Quilt - I like the idea of you offering a super light weight downtek bag. I have read that 900 isn't that big of an improvement over 850, but not certain if this is legit. I like the versatility of a non-sewn footbox, so likely wouldn't want this. Could you get most of the weight savings by losing the zipper, snaps, and draw cord and go to a button style. You could fold the two lower corners under the quilt and button at the centerline. This would leave a point at the the end where you could button this under creating a footbox of sorts. It would reduce the length a bit, so may not work, but an idea.

Adam Rothermich
(aroth87) - F

Locale: Missouri Ozarks
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 11:03:59 MDT Print View

As someone who has been looking at the RevX 10* for the rare occasions I venture into cold weather, I wouldn't mind at all if you switched to 750 FP down (upping the final weight) in order to keep the price from rising too much. For me, the RevX is all about the value, not the absolute weight. I think you're making the right call on that.

Adam

Keegan D
(nageek18)

Locale: Bay Area
offer choices in down on 07/22/2013 11:28:51 MDT Print View

Maybe this isn't cost effective since I don't know anything about business, but why not just give them the option to choose which down to use so customers who want more premium down can pay the price increase and the ones who want more of a value product can get the cheaper down.

Corbin Camp
(heycorb)

Locale: Southeast
Quilts on 07/22/2013 12:58:44 MDT Print View

+1 on letting your buyers weigh in. I couldn't be happier with my Rev 40. Being able to tweak it here and there when I ordered it coupled with the price is what drew me in and will be what brings me back (will need a Prodigy soon). Offering different types of down would give more customization options (if feasible).

Eric Lundquist
(cobberman) - F - M

Locale: Northern Colorado
Re: offer choices in down on 07/22/2013 13:23:30 MDT Print View

I'm with Keegan on this, you already give the option of size, width, inside/outside fabric. I don't think it would be too difficult to implement a choice of down and would be really nice to select as a customer. I understand keeping the necessary inventory of down/fabric/etc could get burdensome though.

tyler marlow
(like.sisyphus) - F

Locale: UTAH
interested in the new design on 07/22/2013 13:39:32 MDT Print View

I've been interested in a closed footbox version of your quilts for a while.

Ive just started looking around for a new quilt for doing fall trail work in Colorado and may wait for this new design.

If youve got any prototypes for sale, I'd be real interested!

As per the RevX I say up the price a bit and keep with the high quality down, still the best quilt deal around. Maybe set a max price at $200 and use the best quality up to that cost?

Edited by like.sisyphus on 07/22/2013 13:40:08 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 14:32:47 MDT Print View

See, Tim...I told ya' :)

Matt

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 14:58:38 MDT Print View

Offering a choice on down is a good idea in theory, I'll have to think on it as i'm nervous how it would work in practice. I'll have 750, 850 and 850 Downtek (and maybe 900)but for the Revx i could only offer 750 or 850 i wouldn't put the highest end down in the lowest end product, gotta force that upgrade :)

Assuming i go the 750 Route (even if i still offer options) and the quality is equal how do you guys feel about ducks vs geese. Today i confirmed a source for 750 Duck and have a sample on the way. I'd never considered duck because its always low end but the price on this is enough that I wouldn't have to raise prices at all and 750 is the fill number i was keying in on already. The goose down is 90/10 and the Duck 85/15 but know i won't choose either unless they meet my quality expectations. I'm testing some samples of 750 and 800 goose this week.

One of my biggest concerns with offering both downs in the RevX is since its THE entry level down quilt on the whole market most of my customers on that product aren't BPL savvy gear head types. I get tons of questions about things like what does the D mean next to the 30D. Offering 2 downs on this lowest cost product is sure to sell me a few more but get me a thousand more emails like that. "Which down should i choose" type questions i can already see them flooding in :)

-Tim

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 15:03:05 MDT Print View

I don't really like to camp in warm weather. A closed footbox is okay with me. If the zipper/closure goes down quite close to the end of the quilt, it is still easy to slide feet out...

I think your plan better differentiates your models.

- - Other gratuitous stuff: Sounds like you have the design in mind. I made a square/perpendicular footbox for my quilt. Doing it again, I think I would angle the top of the quilt out. This would be a way to add a little effective length without much extra material. A bit like a Korean War Sabre. Maybe...

Isn't there a quilt called a Burro or Burrito..?
Maybe name yours Scabbard :^)

Added: Eider..?
I agree that duck doesn't have the cachet
I might keep the base model simple...

Edited by Tan68 on 07/22/2013 15:06:00 MDT.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 15:18:31 MDT Print View

I can't find any source that posts fill power claims for Eider down. Maybe i haven't looked hard enough but i won't be spending the crazy high price for it without a fill power guarantee. In my mind its just not realistic. If i got it and started selling it like crazy they'd just jack the price on me anyway:)

As to the footbox, im looking at a more simple sewn footbox like i used on my summer blanket and like Zpacks uses. Just a simple sewn end. My testing on it has been great so far. It saves a lot of weight not by cutting the zipper out but by making the quilt 6" shorter. My 6' template make a 6'4" quilt in the new design.

SO while im at it let me test the new name out on you guys.

ENIGMA

it keeps a similar direction as my current naming scheme and since everyone is going to be asking me how i did it, crazy light weights and new innovative baffle design, i might as well just embrace it.

-Tim

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 15:37:48 MDT Print View

I am interested in the baffle design...
I volunteer to be the mystery inside an Enigma.

Yeah, I only know what Eider is from a book I read. Maybe it was Journey To The Center of The Earth.. Anyway, I haven't ever come across it on the market; I don't [can't..!] shop at those kinds of places.

I do think duck would be a harder sell. Just because.

I thought about different weights in the base model... I would buy a base model because the difference in weight isn't that great and it is a good price. I am weight conscious but apparently fall into the market for a base quilt :^)

My thoughts when buying the quilt with the 'cheaper' material is feel. Will the more expensive quilt feel better. If it feels just as good, let me/customer know.

If I were going to fracture anything (fork, I guess for the penguin ppl), I would consider a color choice for the base quilt. Either way, you got a stocking thing to consider... It may be that 'customizing' color a little is just as interesting [as choice of weight] to that group of people...

I decided to sew in a footbox because it weighed less. For my synthetic quilt it made a pretty noticeable difference!

I think keeping a zipper or some way to open the formed/shaped box is a good idea.

Edited by Tan68 on 07/22/2013 15:40:34 MDT.

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 15:39:39 MDT Print View

I love the enigma name.

I agree with the sentiments above to allow the choice between 750 and 850 down. I know when I was looking at your revx I was sold on the 850. I was seriously considering paying the upgrade price to katabic, but everything was so close, except price, that I was sold.

I am not too nuanced, so I wouldn't care what kind of bird you pull them feathers from. You are trying to keep the revx as competitive a price as possible, so it makes sense to use the cheaper down if performance isn't taking a hit.

Edited by bzhayes on 07/22/2013 15:40:12 MDT.

Cole Crawford
(CDC43339) - F

Locale: Omaha
Wonderful work on 07/22/2013 15:43:50 MDT Print View

I haven't taken the plunge on a quilt yet, but I love the customer facing you're doing here. If more companies focused on treating customers this way - from beginning of production all the way to delivering a product - they would get rave reviews and repeat customers. Offering lots of choices - down FP, different models, different color choices - is a great way to customize the product, which I love. Just don't let it become too confusing or time-consuming for you!

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 15:55:50 MDT Print View

When I was younger, I was all about the horsepower.

I ordered a car with the engine and transmission I wanted. Chevrolet sold the base model with the typical drive train options and they sold the performance model with the high HP engine.

Most people were happy with that, I guess. However, there is always someone that wants a base model with the engine (V8 Vega or 390 Gremlin, etc.). I wanted to pay base price and get my HP as well...

You had to make your own V8 Vega and the 390 Gremlins weren't a regular stock. Chevrolet allowed me to make my order.

Anyway, there is always a market for base + HP-whatever. If AMC stocked 390 Gremlins on the floor and they didn't cost much more, that would really blur product lines.

Then again, maybe AMC aint the best example.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 16:16:55 MDT Print View

Yeah,

It gets tough because 850 Down in a RevX is a screaming deal, really always has been. I was going to move to 750 last year actually as the markup on this product is so low i don't make much off it but its 80-90% of my sales. After sept it would be $200-$345 for the RevX in 850. This keeps it one of the best deals out there still compared to Kat and Zpacks but my Rev at $250-$390 is still a hell of a deal compared to theirs with similar fabrics and down. So if the RevX is right there in weight why do people buy my standard Rev? Ive always had this issue and i think 3 distinct quilts will fill 3 distinct roles in the market. I get that everyone always wants the very best for the very least but I think at every price point i will still have that going for me. I gotta think :)

The 3 roles i need to fill:
1) most affordable quilt-RevX-beats JRB, Hammock gear, and UGQ prices for similar fabrics and slightly more weight due to larger better coverage sizing and lower fill 750 down, also only one really made for ground sleepers without ordering custom

2) Competitive performance quilt-Rev-similar fabrics to Katabatic and Nunatak with better coverage due to larger sizing and still killing them on price right behind on weight

3) Maximum performance-Enigma-Jumps right next to Zpacks for lightest weights and still keeps the price in the range the high end user is used to dealing with while using the best water resistant down of any cottage brand hands down.

Im having a hard time thinking i should blur these lines too much by offering 850 in the RevX or Downtek in the Rev

Still thinking

-Tim

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 16:21:12 MDT Print View

Tim,

I would just go with you think is best, I think I can speak for most people on here that we trust your judgement :-)

Ross L
(Ross) - MLife

Locale: Beautiful BC
Re: Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 16:57:02 MDT Print View

Tim

How about 800 fill down, same as Montbell uses in their Spiral Down bags. They seem to have reasonable pricing on many of their down products too.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 17:05:08 MDT Print View

Agree with Stephen. Do what you think is best, you know the business better than we do. Sounds like you know your role/fit in the market place.

Ryan

Tim Hafner
(yucaipatim) - M

Locale: Southern California
enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 17:15:43 MDT Print View

Tim-

I think your on the right track with the idea of three market entries that position you favorably in all 3 categories as compared to competitors. I made the decision to buy the Rev X (which I love BTW) because I wanted to try a quilt and felt yours was the best entry level option. If a buyer is not sure that a quilt is the way to go, and wants to try one, the Rev X in 750 fill, with the low price point, will still be the best option out there. Also, once your Rev X buyer figures out that they do like quilts, they will probably be more likely to upgrade to one of your higher end models (because of the more clear distinction between products) rather than switching to a KAT, NUN or Z. Now that I KNOW that I like quilts, my 30 degree Rev X (22.50 ozs) needs to be replaced by something significantly lighter. It would make perfect sense for me to buy an Enigma when they are available. However, with your current line, I don't know that a Rev in 10D would be enough of a weight savings to keep me from considering one of the competitors.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 17:26:54 MDT Print View

Of course I will ultimately do what I think I need to but since I value the opinions of the members here I always want to hear what they think before I make any changes

I have been considering 800 for sure for the X cost is right between the 750 and 850 price weight too but the weight increase of 750 was a lot less than I expected only 3oz on a 6'6" WIDE 0* is not really much for this price point and it holds my prices where they have been very successful for us so I've been going back and forth a lot for sure

I appreciate everyone's input and opinions on this.

-Tim

Edited by MarshLaw303 on 07/22/2013 17:28:10 MDT.

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: play the color option on 07/22/2013 17:40:04 MDT Print View

Of the email exchanges with people hunting the base model and learning about options or whatever, are there any 'wishes' they have expressed that could be incorporated ?

Other than higher FP :^)

Stuff that makes the base model more interesting to them or easier (although a quilt aint hard)... To be honest I can't think of anything myself.

Earlier, I suggested a choice of color. I think this would be really interesting for some people. Mmm, well, you do offer a choice, of course.

I have actually looked at your site. Quite often. I am sure I knew you offered a choice but forgot.

I might list color choice as a feature [It isn't a performance feature, but it is a fun 'I like my quilt' feature]. It is one compared to companies that offer no choice. Maybe have a picture of a red quilt or whichever. Little squares indicating the colors by the drop down boxes. People will read specs or look at graphics before checking dropdown boxes. I think. I associate olive drab with your quilts...

I know the dropdown boxes aren't hidden but remember the question 'how do I know which colors are M90 v2 or v3'... Be sure people get this info during decision making before they really key on the dropdowns to make a purchase. If the color info is listed somewhere other than the dropdowns, I apologise. Sometimes I find a snake. Sometimes it finds me.

I would offer to help with pictures... I think it might be something I could manage.

I hope this doesn't come across as any web site bashing :^0

Edited by Tan68 on 07/22/2013 17:45:07 MDT.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: play the color option on 07/22/2013 18:10:47 MDT Print View

Not having color pics is the biggest area I get feedback. I'm working on a big site upgrade and building a real photo station to get pics done right so I totally agree

I do have more color options than most other guys but it makes for a lot more stuff to stock but i Iook at is as a big part of making it more custom for my customers but still keeps it easy like building stock for me.

-Tim

Jeff McWilliams
(jjmcwill) - M

Locale: Midwest
RevX on 07/22/2013 19:35:53 MDT Print View

I have a 20 degree Rev X that I really love. It's my first quilt. Price/performance was definitely key criteria for choosing it.

When thinking about purchasing a lighter, more expensive quilt, I always ask myself, "Is dropping X ounces of weight worth Y dollars?"

I think the RevX is a great entry level quilt, so long as it actually represents an affordable quilt while still saving weight over a sleeping bag.

Not sure what to think about the duck down. How will it effect the feel, compress-ability, and weight of the quilt?

Thanks for making such great products.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: RevX on 07/22/2013 20:43:59 MDT Print View

I certainly won't use Duck down if it affects the quality negatively.

Most of us think of 550 fill when we think of Duck but 750 duck and 750 goose should be pretty similar in performance. Ill have samples shortly to compare. If the feather content is too high I'm not having it.

-Tim

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/22/2013 20:54:58 MDT Print View

"SO while im at it let me test the new name out on you guys. ENIGMA"

Hmmmmm. It is my feet, wrapped in down booties, inside an enigma. No mystery there!

I like it. Looking forward to seeing your new design Tim.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Winter Quilts on 07/22/2013 21:36:52 MDT Print View

Eventually I will buy a revX winter quilt to use as an overbag. 750 fill vs 850 fill wont make a difference for me. Price will.

I really like the idea of holding the price down on the entry level quilt and offering distinct tiers with your products.

I also think you are right that offering choice of down will just lead to more questions from the average customer and drive no more sales to your product. Weight wise you will still be very competitive.

Also offering pink / purple in the RevX fabric would be great. My 2 year old loves her pink protoge, and you could sell another one to my wife with a pink revX as she wont replace her 3 lb sythetic without going to a pink bag.

Edited by GregF on 07/22/2013 21:40:41 MDT.

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
price on 07/22/2013 21:46:49 MDT Print View

I would add a drop down box with and choose which fill power to use. Let the customer have the option of spending more or less.

There's going to be people who don't buy because it's not 850, and some who don't because it's too expensive.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: price on 07/22/2013 22:04:33 MDT Print View

Looking for some new fabrics that might reduce the Revelation cost a little to close the gap some. Still really far off at this point but perhaps an option. Then you choose you fill by which product you choose and yes that fabric is still nicer than the 30d but the prices would get closer. Sourcing fabric for myself could be a game changer vs always going through a supplier. I'm starting the search well see where it leads.

-Tim

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: price on 07/22/2013 23:44:50 MDT Print View

> Then you choose you fill by which product you choose...

Makes sense.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/23/2013 06:23:05 MDT Print View

Any thoughts on bringing back the epiphany in some form?

If I do it will use the new baffles(sewn on like the early days), have a sewn side drawcord bottom foot box for venting and use a large nylon stripe on the shell for lofting and drying. It would use 850 downtek to deal with any moisture caused by the VB

thoughts?

-Tim

David Alexander
(davidta) - MLife

Locale: New York City
The Return on 07/23/2013 06:25:13 MDT Print View

I would love to see that!

Jason Mahler
(jrmahler) - M

Locale: Michigan
Re: Re: price on 07/23/2013 11:15:29 MDT Print View

Sourcing yourself can make sense, but this will likely only be a benefit about certain purchase quantities. With your current business model that may have 4 styles of down and a couple dozen fabrics (denier and color), it might be tough to get enough of a price break to count for much.

As for offering 850 in a RevX, it seems like there would be little incentive to upgrade to Rev, which would reduce its market. Add in the fact that the Enigma will further reduce the Rev market and I am not certain there would be much left. Not a big deal if using similar materials as either low or high end products.

How much more weight vs cost reduction in going to 700 or even 650 for a RevX? This would provide a lot more differentiation and allow the Rev to be more of a midline product.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Duck Down on 07/23/2013 12:29:58 MDT Print View

Back in the day (like 40 years ago) Betsy and I had sleeping bags filled with duck down. We used them for a number of years, mostly in Oregon, until we bought some lighter goose down bags. I don't think they were 750, probably not even 650! But they showed no collapsing over the time we used them. We still have a duck down comforter on our bed that is about 25 years old and still doing fine.

Based on this experience, I would expect 750 duck down to perform decently, but...it might not be quite as endurable as goose, and there is the public perception to deal with.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Duck Down on 07/23/2013 12:52:48 MDT Print View

Duck down is good. It often weighs a bit more, ie doesn't loft as well, but don't forget eider down is still considered the best. Eider is a duck. All duck downs resist water slightly better than goose down. So you get the benefit of added security in a wet environment. Generally the down feathers are a bit smaller, though they are a bit "stickier." Overfill is usually not needed.

Unlike the 900fill goose downs, they maintain loft even when damp. The newer dri-down may do better, this is a question in my mind. Generally lower fill downs (750-800) do better on long (>3 week) trips. 900 fill down tends to loose loft when damp.

Kind of a toss up, which you should choose to offer, Tim. I lean torwards durability and pay for that an a few extra ounces of weight. 900 fills are good for a week or two under damp conditions. 800 fill downs are good for 2-3 weeks. After a month on the trail, you cannot tell the difference between 750 and 900 if you encounter rain three or four times.

Good down has a shorter life expectancy, also. The fibers are finer, easily damaged by rolling around on it. Again, more of a toss up. You could easily justify whatever decision you make.

Rocco Speranza
(Mechrock) - F

Locale: Western NC Mtns
My thoughts on 07/23/2013 15:32:57 MDT Print View

I've read though most of what was posted here. I really like the ideas shown. Having bought a 10F RevX and a 40F RevX I'm really happy with them. The one thing I could get my head around is how you made them so cheap relatively, but I see you are fixing that now. Of course me and many others aren't going to complain about that though. ;)

I feel a price raise is in order for your quilts, or if anything lower the material quality and keep the same price. I'm thinking 3 types of Down quilts. (Can Substitute with Synthetic I guess)

Quilt 1:
Have your cheap RevX with 750 fill and maybe a cheaper 40D+ fabric if that's possible. (Maybe not even offer higher than 30D to keep it simpler.)(Also maybe add the option for 850 water resistant down at a larger price premium than the other quilts or not at all.)

Quilt 2:
This will be like the Rev now. Default to lighter material and 850 fill down. Give the option for 900 fill down and water resistant down.

Quilt 3. Cuben quilt with ability to have hybrid material. Same additional options as option 2.


Universal options:
1. Sewn foot box with length(Probably more popular for winter quilts)
2. The Water resistant down.


Probably will edit this...

Edited by Mechrock on 07/23/2013 15:49:50 MDT.

Peter Nash
(nash.p@comcast.net) - MLife

Locale: West Michigan
Epiphany / Cuben option on 07/23/2013 15:41:03 MDT Print View

Tim, somebody should sell Cuben fiber quilts. As far as I know, you were the only source other than MYOG. Cuben is the ultimate choice for a technical, high-end quilt option. But Cuben fiber cries out for the highest fill power available. If someone is buying Cuben they will not mind paying for the highest fill power down.

After I acquired an Epiphany earlier this year I was immediately sold on Cuben fiber quilts. (In fact, your quilts inspired me to make my own. I just finished my 2nd one, a 19 oz. three season quilt, after having made a 10 oz. summer one a month ago.) Whether you use 850 fill power or 900, downtek or not, count me as a strong vote for bringing the Epiphany back.

I do think that the baffles should not be sewn to the liner because it would detract from the vapor barrier benefit of the Cuben fiber. In fact, arguably downtek would be less indicated for a taped cuben quilt because there would be little chance for vapor to get inside.

I like the name Enigma alot, and I like the radically light weights you're aiming for. I also prefer sewn footboxes over drawcords.

It doesn't make sense to confuse your product lines by offering higher fill power as an option on the RevX. From both a production and marketing standpoint I think your instincts are right. Offer only 750 down on that line.

I'm keen to see your Enigma.

Rocco Speranza
(Mechrock) - F

Locale: Western NC Mtns
I think you are right. on 07/23/2013 15:47:44 MDT Print View

I'll change my post above. I think you should stick with the 750fill for the low end as well. Make people upgrade if they really want that extra weight savings and there will be a larger weight gap between the models then.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
Enigma inspired design for the Prodigy? on 07/25/2013 05:18:46 MDT Print View

Hi Tim (and BPL),

Have you thought about using an efficient Enigma-type design (i.e. sewn footbox with less material) with the Prodigy line? Due to weight, people usually dismiss synthetics, no questions asked. But I think you could change this, or at least have people give synthetics a second thought. To my knowledge there is no option for a synthetic quilt that can come within 2-3 ounces of its down alternative in weight. But Tim, I think you can change this, close the synthetic-down gap, and revive the synthetic market. Okay, maybe thats a little ambitious but here's my logic why:


Creating demand: A real option with synthetic quilts

A 40*F quilt is an essential temp rating to have in almost everyone’s sleep arsenal. At this temp rating, the weight disparity between down and synthetic is minimized. Below are the weight differences (and prices) between the 40*F Prodigy, Revelation, and new Enigma.

A. 40* Prodigy = 18.5 oz, $190 (6’ Slim, which is generously wide at 50”).
B. 40* Revelation = 14 oz, $240 (6’ slim, but likely jump to $260 ish in sept).
C. 40* Enigma ≈ 11oz, $350 ish (5’10” reg size)

The current Prodigy is 7.5 oz heavier then the new Enigma, but only 4.5 oz heavier then the Revelation. Due to the high cost of the Enigma (and Z packs) the reality is that the majority of people can’t afford it. So now it’s only a comparison between the Revelation and the Prodigy, thus a 4.5 oz difference. BUT if you could re-work maybe 2 oz off the Prodigy with a re-designed foot box (16.5 oz total), then its only 2.5 oz heavier than its 850 down alternative.

So why would you want to sacrifice 2.5 oz and rock synthetics??? Three reasons.

1) This “new” Prodigy would be $70 cheaper than the revelation.
2) The increase in versatility of synthetics over down. Wet down is useless, wet hydrophobic down is less useless but still not really useful, wet synthetic is still very useful.
3) Using a synthetic quilt can change your entire sleep system to match, and overcome this 2.5 oz difference. Without having to be cautious about wetting your down, you could use that 3.7 oz Wasatch bivy and not have to worry about condensation from the less-than-optimal breathability. You could use a smaller tarp because you don’t need the extra protection from rain’s backsplash. A 5.5’ x 9’ tarp is now a 4’ x 8’ tarp. For silnylon tarps, that’s about a 2-3 oz difference alone. OR, you could not bring a tarp (stakes and guylines) at all and rely on natural cover when it rains.


Market domination:

You could own the synthetic quilt market because it seems like there are just two major players in synthetics: you and MLD spirit quilts, which have almost identical specs (considering sizes and temp ratings) to your Prodigy line. Right now, there is really nothing separating you and MLD except for some minor size differences (which I guess could be a big deal to some people).

This argument holds less weight if someone introduces a 40* F, 11oz down quilt for around $260 instead of $360. I think (hope) this can happen, but it wouldn’t destroy the demand for the new UL Prodigy since synthetic will always have its niche, and you would still be the lightest option.

Those are my thoughts. I’d be interested to hear what you (and BPL) think about this. Thanks!

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Enigma inspired design for the Prodigy? on 07/25/2013 08:27:46 MDT Print View

I appreciate everyone's input. I'll be weighing your comments against samples and numbers to come up with what i hope is the right balance for each product.

Greg, I will most likely offer something with a closed footbox in synthetics down the road after i see the merits of it in the Enigma line first.

The issue is the footbox will be harder to do right in synthetics, not impossible but harder. It also wont be as big of a weight difference as the Down one changes footbox and uses 15% less down due to the increased baffle efficiency so two parts are at play but certainly a lower weight would still be gained from the footbox.

The biggest problem with synthetics isn't weight but bulk. The sewn footbox will reduce overall quilt length and therefore bulk but not in a significant way. They are still very bulky when compared to down and thats tough.

Synthetic above 45* has always been my preference, until my new Enigma was born. I'll be playing with that now at 10.05oz i cant get that low in a 50* prodigy of the same size even with a sewn footbox, im still around 13.5oz in that

-Tim

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: Enigma inspired design for the Prodigy? on 07/25/2013 09:14:46 MDT Print View

> The issue is the footbox will be harder to do right in synthetics, not impossible but harder.

I can second that...

Frankenfoot is fairly easy.
A not-sewn-through foot is another thing.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Enigma inspired design for the Prodigy? on 07/25/2013 09:46:01 MDT Print View

For 40 and 50* quilts we could do the simple sewn through one we did on the summer blanket but for colder than that wed want to do it different to keep it warm

-Tim

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/25/2013 11:18:50 MDT Print View

Tim,

Thanks for the breakdown on why you are reluctant to offer upgraded down on the revX line. It makes sense, though currently you seem to be getting a distinction between rev and revx and offering the same down in both lines.

From my perspective 750 down seems like bottom basement down for a cottage bag (which is why I don't think it matters as much if you use duck or goose). It makes sense to use it so that you can offer a low starting point. But if you don't offer the upgrade to your current offering you might lose many of your current customers who are looking for the optimum price vs performance point. That's the customer I was when I bought a revx from you. If you want to stay in the game for those price vs. performance customers you should move to 800 fill down. Psychologically, 800 does not feel as steep of a down-grade from 850 as 750 does. 800 feels like a compromise. 750 feels like I am going for the cheapest I can get.

Another option you might consider is to only offer color choices in the rev line and higher. That might let you buy fabric in bulk for your revx line and save some money. Frankly I don't think people in your revx line care as much about color as your higher end customers.

If you downgrade your revx too much to have better distinction in your line, you may loose customers who fall between your lines.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
footbox for a synthetic quilt on 07/25/2013 13:01:06 MDT Print View

Hm, I didnt think about the difficulty of making a not-sewn-through foot box with the synthetic. And its bulk is still an issue, youre right. I am looking to use synthetic for sustained bikepacking trips, and was just dreaming about having the Prodigy40 at 1 lb. But the Prodigy40 is already a great weight on a great synthetic quilt, so it makes sense to knock out the Enigma first. I just hope you don't forget about the Prodigy fans out there : )

Cant wait to see the Enigma, thanks Tim!

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/25/2013 19:58:16 MDT Print View

Tim,
I ran out of money this Spring waiting for the cuben fiber quilts to come back out. When you offered them again, they did not stay listed on your site for long, I have not checked for a bit now. So as you mentioned to me personally, they still did not sell I'm guessing. One of a couple items I want this coming Spring is a quilt, but the lowest weight I can get in a 30F, price not a big concern, but still within reason. For me, I believe a sewn footbox is lighter and anything else to get the weight down. I'll be checking your lineup out later.
Keep up the thinking.
Duane

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/26/2013 12:26:16 MDT Print View

Im not sure where the epiphany fits. I always loved it but rarely sold it. Sewn baffles are stronger, taped more waterproof but the tape adds an oz to the weight which now that we have 10D really cuts the weight savings back. If customers would be willing to seam seal that would be the lightest and most robust way to approach solving the problem but is in no way the most elegant. Nylon needs to be added to the shell layer to increase lofting and allow more effective field drying but that adds in weight and reduces weather resistance so im left wanting it but not knowing where to position it for success and validity in the market

On another note we stuffed some sample 6' WIDE 20* RevX with 750 and 800 goose down fills. The 800 is impossible to tell from 850 in the quilt expect it weighs an oz more. The 750 however feels more full and complete throughout the quilt and results in an extra 1" of loft at the cost of another oz of weight. I hadn't expected it to loft more at all. I have read studies that indicate that <=750 downs maintain their loft better over time and across varying levels of humidity than >=800 downs but i didn't expect an extra 1" of loft (this is two layer loft as i measured and observed it so .5" single layer)

These quilts are being tested by my staff for the next week and we will weigh and measure them again along with accessing their feedback to help us dial in the right choice. Just thought id share my surprise in the noticeably fuller 750 quilt, crazy

-Tim

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/26/2013 12:45:03 MDT Print View

I really have no experience with down stuff. Only recently learned I had outgrown childhood allergies. Yeah, I know it isn't supposed to be the down but stuff living in it..

Anyway, I have wondered that the really fluffy stuff may not always fluff so well if the user binds the covering even a little. Light shells seem to be needed. etc.

800 is +1 oz. v. 850 (makes sense according to 'formula')
750 is +1 oz, v. 800 for a total of +2 oz. v. 850 ?
[to be sure I follow correctly]

You get an extra half inch or so of loft. That might take another ounce or two for the 'fragile/delicate' 850 to achieve... So not far from parity ? [it is interesting]

I am really close to trying to build me a quilt. Why not. I am thinking about 1.4x or so versus the 'formula fill' for good firmness in the torso and maybe a bit less in the sides/wings. With 850. Because I worry it will not always fluff like 850 /can/....

Edited by Tan68 on 07/26/2013 12:46:38 MDT.

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/26/2013 12:54:52 MDT Print View

When you stuffed the quilts, was it at the typical 'formula' fill ? In any case, I figure any overstuff or whatever was consistent between the fills. So doesn't really matter.

So, the 750 fill may not weigh much different by time you either remove some 750 to get the loft you want/targeted or add more 850 to get loft equal to the 750...

Yeah, there is supposed to be more than just loft involved with warmth. Density, as well. I figure your 850 sample fill isn't very dense :)

So, 750 isn't supposed to compress as well. I wonder, though, if there is really much difference by time the 750 and 850 quilts are adjusted to have the same loft (presumably similar warmth) by either adding or subtracting down from one or the other. Maybe they will pack about the same size then...?

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/26/2013 17:17:17 MDT Print View

I believe you will find that the extra 1" lofting difference of the 750fill down is actually about the same warmth as the 850fill down.

Usually higher fill downs have larger and better developed down feathers than lower fill downs. This means that the air pockets are actually smaller, thus more efficient at stopping convective currents through the down. I am not sure of the exact numbers, but using proportions based on 900fill as the maximum you have 750/900 compared with 850/900, or, .8333 and .9444 for relative warmth, hence, relative heat retension properties (assuming 900fill down would be 1.000.)

Soo, to retain the identical warmth of 900fill down over 4" of loft, you would need about 4.2303 inches of 850 fill down or about 4.8000 inches of 750 fill down. (This is the inverse of the heat retention for four inches of down insulation.)

Given the differences in down rating is not absolute (it varies by year and batch) and the weight of the shell layer compressing it slightly, it is reasonable to assume that the 1" you are seeing is about correct if they are both the same temp rating. For example:
The 750 could be an actual 725 legitimatly for a 4.9655 lofting, for example.
The 850 could be an actual 875 legitimatly for a 4.1142 lofting, for example.

This assumes you maintain a rather exact equivalency in fill amounts in each, of course.

I would rather think the one inch difference was through intentional calculation (like the above) rather than any real error. Note that 1 inch in 2 inches of loft is a LOT. But, I am guessing they would be of similar warmth, give or take.

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Tim some thoughts on 07/26/2013 23:28:12 MDT Print View

I think it would benifit people if you clearly stated the weights of the quilts.

You are including bungee straps and the stuff sack in the weights where they are in fact lighter than advertised. Or so I think, unless my quilt is underfilled.

Maybe I missed this but with the new quilt design just how much lighter will a 50* Prodigy be? Right now it is 15oz for a 6ft reg.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
New piece to the puzzle on 07/27/2013 04:15:51 MDT Print View

Hey Tim,

I was thinking you could expand your customer base outside backpackers to include climbers/mountaineers. As you are probably aware, this group (and many hikers) often carry a bivy with the elephant foot (aka 3 quarter bag, half bag) combo with their puffy jackets. Aside from MYOG or chopping up your favorite bag, there are very limited places to get a light weight 3 quarter bag/quilt. Few large brands may sell one, but the weight/warmth/custom doesnt compete with cottage. As far as I know, the only cottage that makes these are Feathered friends and Nunatak. FF has the vireo, at a pound, completely sewn up, with differential fill. Nunatak has the Arc AT half quilt, something like 9 oz for 40*F.

The best part about getting into this market is that all you would have to do is advertise, you already make them. It seems your Rev(x) Jr. line would be a perfect candidate for 3 quarter mountaineering quilts. Yeah they are narrow for adults at something like 46", but the people buying these arent looking for the luxury of having extra material at the chest. I think you should include a 3 quarter quilt page in your website, or at least include this idea in the product descriptions of your products (especially Jr. line). Just mentioning it could get people to see its potential and to encourage "outside-the-box" thinking when selecting your sleep system.

And for the new Enigma, a 3 quarter version could be a defining piece to its puzzle. I dont even want to guess how low this weight would be.

- Greg

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: New piece to the puzzle on 07/27/2013 11:37:58 MDT Print View

Brooks Range makes a 1/2 bag product.

It is called an Elephant Foot and 'Mountaineering' is the second part of the company name. Exactly as you said things should be :^)

I thought 'elephant foot' was just their name. I didn't realise it is also a more general name. I also didn't know it is a type of bag favored by climbers. Now the BR product name makes more sense to me.

Still wonder where the name came from...

Rocco Speranza
(Mechrock) - F

Locale: Western NC Mtns
I was thinking... on 07/27/2013 13:12:20 MDT Print View

I was thinking... I've changed my mind a little.

I feel you should have 5 different styles. I'm going to think like Apple does on this. I value there business model as it works quite well.

1. RevX
2. EnigmaX
3. Rev
4. Enigma
5. Epiphany


RevX like the Ipad is a cheaper computer that gets the job done.
Will be limited on features stuck as 750 fill down and heavier fabric.

EnigmaX should be in between the price of the RevX and Rev.
Like RevX, but with your more special design.

Rev like Apples higher end computer are limited in modifications.
This will come with 850Down standard and have the option for 900 fill or water resistant 850.

Enigma
Like Rev, but with your sewn foot box.

Epiphany will be like Apple's Mac Pro. Their top of the line computer.
This will use 900 fill down standard with .34oz Cuban Fiber, Seam sealing can be an option.

Not too sure on prices. I feel there should be a larger price gap between 40 and 0f quilts.
$175-$250 for new RevX
$200-$275 for EnigmaX
$225-$325 for Rev
$250-$350 for Enigma
$300-400 for Epiphany

Not really sure on prices since I don't know your material costs and such, but I feel you should have the Epipany as an option for those few extreme people.

What do you think?

Edited by Mechrock on 07/27/2013 13:17:55 MDT.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
brooks range 1/2 bag on 07/27/2013 13:19:27 MDT Print View

ah yes, I forgot about brooks range. I havent seen this bag before. I cant lie, it does look incredibly comfortable at 25*.

And I am not sure where the term elephant foot came from. I assume its from the europeans and the early bivouac days in the alps. I think the reason why they are more popular with climbers versus hikers is because a heavy pack has a different level of liability for climbers, they all have to go UL whereas hikers dont. And since climbers almost always carry a puffy jacket due to their exposure, it makes sense to chop their bags into elephant feet.

So I am still convinced Tim's JR line-up is a sleeper in the elephant foot world. No pun intended. I'm thinking about purchasing the Prodigy X JR, just to test this out. (And I wonder if any SUL'ers here have already done this?) While I dont bivy on mountains (yet), i may loan it to some friends that do.

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: brooks range 1/2 bag on 07/27/2013 13:56:48 MDT Print View

I think climbers got a different set of options available to them.

Sometimes I read 'go to bed or hop in the sleeping bag early if you are cold' and that implies to me the person is either moving and happy or stopped, chilled, and in the bag.

Sometimes climbers can't move and can't get in the bag (sounds like you know this). So the heavier jackets you mention. I don't climb but I take pictures and, for me, that also involves time at rest. Granted, I /can/ get up and move but I am usually pretty stationary.

So, I tend to try and have stuff with me that makes me comfortable at rest. I don't rely on 'keep moving' strategy. If I do it right, the sleeping bag/quilt/foot only needs to be warm enough to offset metabolism slowing during sleep and temp drop at night...

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept. on 07/28/2013 10:02:18 MDT Print View

I'm sort of an unconventional thinker at times, but I have thought about a hybrid quilt before especially for longer trips where rain and humidity will be part of the equation sometimes. A layer of thin Apex on the bottom with some down on top. That way if on a longer trip you could have some weight and packing savings (and cost), but if you get into some "oh shite" situations at least you have the Apex to rely on, some reliable warmth is better than very, very little which is what happens when down gets too wet. Course as a manufacturer, such a product might be a big pain to implement especially since the nice thing about Apex is not sewing baffles.

Might be an interesting and "novel" product, but I'm not sure how it would sell in the mainstream since there seems to be definite down & synthetic camps and which tend to be somewhat polarized.

Could call it Apocalypse...

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 07/28/2013 10:12:06 MDT Print View

Justin D - I like that thought. Big Agnes has (or had) some products like that, not sure how well they sold. I was thinking about something along the same lines, but not a hybrid between down and synthetic, but instead a hybrid between synthetic and synthetic. 5 oz apex on the bottom half of the quilt, and 2.5 oz on the top half. Inspired from the differential down fill of Feathered Friends Vireo.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 07/28/2013 10:19:38 MDT Print View

If you put it that way Gregory, we're talking about rather different things.. BTW why more Apex on the bottom half? Wouldn't it be better reversed since its our core which its better to keep warmer?

Edited by ArcturusBear on 07/28/2013 10:21:05 MDT.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 07/28/2013 10:41:43 MDT Print View

Well usually people carry more insulation for their core versus their legs, so having the thicker Apex on the bottom would even things out. This is basically a compromise to the elephants foot, which doesnt have any top half above somewhere along the chest. And yeah i guess these hybrids are way different then yours. I wonder about going all synthetic bottom, all down top... vise versa? These monstrosities are probably best left to the MYOG crowd.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 07/28/2013 11:44:43 MDT Print View

That is true, does make sense now that you explained it. Does take a lot for my legs to get cold if I'm wearing some kind of leggings to begin with.

Monstrosities..haha, sure. I made something like that but it hasn't been cold enough to try yet.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/23/2013 11:09:27 MDT Print View

Hello all,

I don't have the new site done nor is the Enigma all set to go but I ran out of my lower cost 850 fill so today I had to change the site to reflect the new cost increase in the Revelation (less than $20 on avg) and the use of the 750 duck down on the RevelationX (and Revolt/RevoltX and Jrs) The X prices have come down a little on the 20* and warmer reflecting the lower down cost.

To soften this change some I'd like to offer $15 off any stock quilt through the end of the month. Plus the free shipping they already qualify for. Use Code "PRICES FALL"

All the stock RevelationX quilts will ship with the new 750 Duck Down from today on. We are having high order volumes but should still be able to ship these by the end of the week.

-Tim

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/23/2013 11:17:32 MDT Print View

Tim, just curious if you have ever thought about making a hybrid quilt like i mentioned earlier, with some apex on one side and some down on the other?

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/23/2013 11:39:26 MDT Print View

i Haven't put much thought toward it at this point. Hoping to get into winter and work on so new designs. Might even happen this year, but until them I am slammed with new models, updates, fabric sourcing and looking for a new space. No time for more new stuff right now. I'll have to check out your ides though when i get a chance

-Tim

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/23/2013 19:30:33 MDT Print View

I've made a hybrid with the scree insulation thru-hiker used to sell.
I used a 40" width of the scree along the main body.
Quit fit is 55" wide and fits 6' with 20d fabric and 9 ounces of 800 down.
I sewed the baffles to the scree and the inner fabric, so the outer fabric was seam free for sleeping in mist and foggy conditions.

I have a simlar 9 ounce filled quilt that came in at 15 ounces.
The hybrid came in a 26 ounces. It's between 5-10 degrees warmer than the other quilt, and works great in wet condiions, however, it's just not worth it's weight.

I can bring my 3 ounce bivy and stay just as warm and dry.
It would be a great Seatle quitl for tarping but still heavy.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/23/2013 20:01:30 MDT Print View

Thank you for the feedback Aaron.

I was thinking more like one layer of 2.5 or 4 oz/sq-yd Apex combined with down, and for something like 20 to 40 degree quilts. Shouldn't be that much heavier than a full down quilt (well a 20 degree quilt with 4oz Apex and rest down will be to some extent). Definitely more noticeably bulkier though.

I think this alternative option would be good for people doing extended hikes, especially at places like the AT where wetness and high humidity are often, but not always experienced.

J C
(Joomy) - M
good options on 09/24/2013 03:02:55 MDT Print View

Looking at your website I think you've made the right choice, Tim. Your RevX is possibly even better value now, and for those who want to pay the extra 100 dollars to save 100 grams the Revelation is still good as ever. You might lose a little interest in the RevX because of the slight stigma against duck down and sub-800 loft but I think it's a better match with the 30D seconds. The people who balk at the 750 duck down are the ones who will be able to rationalise buying a Revelation. ;)

Charlie Murphy
(baltocharlie) - F

Locale: MAryland
Interested on 09/24/2013 09:07:44 MDT Print View

Very interested in one of your RevXs. Sent you an email through your site. website states 3-4 delivery time, does this include in stock items? Western trip in planning stages for mid October departure. Will a quilt make it to me by 10/9?? Thanks

Charlie Murphy
(baltocharlie) - F

Locale: MAryland
EDIT on 09/24/2013 09:08:39 MDT Print View

3-4 weeks delivery time...sorry

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: EDIT on 09/24/2013 09:28:23 MDT Print View

Quilts from the instock page will ship by sat. Mon at the latest. Its only that long as the 750 is in transit and not here yet.

-Tim

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Enigma on 09/24/2013 17:07:57 MDT Print View

Tim, when do you think you might have the enigma ready to go?

Because of course I need a new quilt. Obviously.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Enigma on 09/24/2013 18:28:23 MDT Print View

Shooting for oct. Some early templates are getting cut this week so I can do staff training. Fabric will be here in 2 weeks, down is here. Just need to do the training and finalize the templates.

-Tim

John Davis
(JCD) - F

Locale: Southeast
Enigma on 09/24/2013 18:52:48 MDT Print View

What type of fabric will you use on the enigma?

Michael K
(chinookhead) - F - M
Downtek RevX? on 09/24/2013 18:53:55 MDT Print View

Tim, I think that it would be a great idea to offer the REV X with a "downtek" option of 700 or the 850 downtek that you already have in stock with an appropriate increase in price based upon the fancier down. I think that many like me would like this option and some people (like me) have been holding off until you received the downtek. I would assume that this would not be much of a burden to you since you make most of your quilts based on individual orders and you already have the 850 downtek. Thoughts?

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Downtek RevX? on 09/24/2013 19:28:26 MDT Print View

Enigma will be using a new 10d made just for me! More downproof yet still super soft and comfy!

I'm not sure about the downtek in the RevX. It costs 3 times what the 750 fill costs. I'll be thinking.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/24/2013 20:11:09 MDT Print View

Okay, I could see a 2.5 ounce sewn thru quilt with 3-4 ounces of down added under the apex for a nice 40 degree quilt.

I'm surprised no one has done this yet, however I think the down would be suspended in a permanent clomp and wold loft up all that well under the synthetic layer.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/24/2013 20:22:00 MDT Print View

I would put the Down just on top of the apex in the quilt so that the apex material wouldn't be compressing the Down down. Some down (or more likely feathers) would work it's way into the apex material i suppose, but i don't see any reason why it should especially clump, except maybe a little from static electricity generated by the apex material..??

As far as keeping the down separated from the apex (as to not work it's way into the apex at all), if one wanted to do that, one could use a very thin, light weight silk in between. But i don't think that would be really all that necessary.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/24/2013 21:01:05 MDT Print View

"I think this alternative option would be good for people doing extended hikes, especially at places like the AT where wetness and high humidity are often, but not always experienced."

With the down on top, the purpose of the above becomes useless.

Sorry for trolling Tim.

Edited by awsorensen on 09/24/2013 21:01:42 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: synthetic and synthetic hybrid on 09/24/2013 21:14:24 MDT Print View

Why? Only if down collapse is coming from precipitation, but not if from consistent high humidity. In the latter case, it won't matter if the down is on top or bottom. Even in the former case, wetness doesn't always come from above, sometimes it comes from getting the quilt on the ground accidentally and in that case, down on the bottom wouldn't be any better necessarily. Also, if really need be, one could flip it over temporarily if precipitation was coming from above.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Hmmm... on 09/24/2013 22:52:35 MDT Print View

Must be too many new, wealthy Chinese climbers buying up all the prime European goos down, causing a spike in demand and thus prices.

Chinese farmers don't want to wait long enough for their geese (and the down) to become fully mature before slaughter. Costs too much feed.

Anthony Viera
(joydivisi0n)

Locale: Orange County
Down Testing on 09/24/2013 23:02:07 MDT Print View

What was the result of the 750 duck down testing? More to the point, is the new RevX just as warm as the old RevX?

Edited by joydivisi0n on 09/24/2013 23:02:42 MDT.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Down Testing on 09/25/2013 05:09:54 MDT Print View

None of my down comes from China. The 850 goose is from multiple European farms and the 750 duck is from France.

My testing on the duck down showed it to be equal in performance to the 750 goose down. We really like the duck down we found. This down is white for a better price than grey goose and the white looks nicer in our lighter colored quilts.

Is it as warm? Yeah. When I first tested 750 it actually lofted more than the 800 or 850 (different fill volumes to achieve same loft goal) so I expect zero loss in performance with just a small weight penalty.

-Tim

Charlie Murphy
(baltocharlie) - F

Locale: MAryland
another customer!! on 09/25/2013 09:24:19 MDT Print View

Tim: Just bought the RevX 20. No need to reply to this, I know you are busy. Just a mid-week bump as well. Carry-on.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: another customer!! on 09/25/2013 09:42:12 MDT Print View

Cool Charlie! Hope you love it!

There was a screw up with our 750 shipment. It was set to deliver yesterday but was packaged way wrong for us do it had to go back. It was never supposed to get picked up so they could repackage. Logistics! They are sending me one bag some I can get to work while they sort it. Should be here tomorrow. So still hoping to get this weeks stock orders out by Sat! Fingers crossed

-Tim

Art Tyszka
(arttyszka) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Enigma Updates on 10/01/2013 09:26:43 MDT Print View

Hi Tim, any updates for us on the Enigma? I'm sure I'm not the only one excited by and interested in it. Patiently (not so much) waiting to see it on your site.

Thanks
Art

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Enigma Updates on 10/01/2013 10:07:51 MDT Print View

Art,

I'm so close. Have to call the cutting shop today about early templates. They are cutting a few for me but I guess there's a problem.

Will be by end of the month for sure

-Tim

David Mandrella
(thedavil)

Locale: Independence Lake
Epiphany on 10/02/2013 17:55:33 MDT Print View

Hey Tim,

I see all these suggestions for more colors, options on down / etc. While I do see the potential benefit (to sales) of adding a "girly" color option, I do not think that adding stock fill options works as well with your business model of 'tiered product offerings'.

I'm assuming that you still do custom jobs? The "elite" crowd knows what they want, and all the drop-down boxes in the world won't cover all those options. That is the beauty of the cottage industry in my view...agility! Who else could I have called (or emailed in this case) but Tim Marshall when I wanted a 900FP quilt with a 7D shell? You're one of the few guys out there that would even entertain the idea. Kudos for offering that level of service Tim, and don't think for a moment that it isn't appreciated!

If that little blurb about duck down being more water-resistant than goose is true, then it's a hands down winner in my book and a good selling point on the RevX. Offering a more water-resistant down on an entry level quilt makes a ton of sense to me...especially since it gives a bit more fault tolerence for those 'oops' moments that every newbie is bound to encounter. (Like when your nalgene bottle develops a 'leak' when the top isn't tight, or when you bury your face inside a barely breathable bivy during the night and wake up soaked.) Now if only you could get that duck down treated to be hydrophobic on top of that inherit water-resistance...

As far as the Epiphany goes, if you're going to add a nylon strip on the side, why not just do the whole top in a lightweight, breathable fabric (or a WPB/DWR fabric if moisture is an issue)? You'd still get the vapor barrier from the Cuben Liner without the slow loft/dry times (I'm assuming that's what you were shooting for). It could lower the price-point substantially and put the Epiphany more 'in-reach' price-wise (which I think has been the limiting factor on your past model as far as sales...It just cost too much for a few ounces shaved & a clammy sleeping experience imho.)

Anyway Tim, keep up the outstanding work, your products are top-notch, can't wait to see this new Enigma quilt.

-Dave

A

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Epiphany on 10/05/2013 22:25:00 MDT Print View

I can tell you that getting 7d is expensive.

It is available, and although I have yet to see a sample, the 7d available only saves 2 grams per square meter off the lightest 10d so it's really not worth the hype.

Plus every fabric from the mill is very different in retrospect to what you want. 75% of the fabric orders you look at for a 1,000+ yard order will not have the right feel, mainley crinkley or not nearly soft enough.

I totaly agree on the girly colors though.
An aqua or fusha color would be such a girly thing that I could see it sell.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Epiphany on 10/20/2013 18:24:25 MDT Print View

So the plan is for the new site to go live tomorrow night and a limited offering of sizes for the Enigma with it. You guys have been here for the whole thing so i'd love your help. Could you check it out tonight/tomorrow and let me know of any errors or mistakes I may have made?

beta.enlightenedequipment.com

Thanks all.

-Tim

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Epiphany on 10/20/2013 18:36:18 MDT Print View

Looks good Tim. A couple of comments:

The pics with the orange strips at head/foot don't clearly show the baffle system, it's lost in the orange. The light green shows it better.

On any of the Enigma quilts, when you first select one, the pic on the left is slightly blurry. When you click on the pic for the larger pic, that's in focus.

I'd recommend making the extreme water resistant head/foot stripes as an option on the main ordering menu instead of having to click a link to order the option. So it would be the fourth selection (Size, Inside Color, Outside Color, Extreme WR Strips). Or at least put the link to the option with the other ordering options.

The quilts look great, I think they'll be a big hit!

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
its here... tomorrow on 10/20/2013 18:39:54 MDT Print View

The only thing I dont really like on the beta site is Downtek plastered on every picture of the Enigma. Maybe its an advertising deal your involved in but it takes away attention of your company.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Down Testing on 10/20/2013 18:57:26 MDT Print View

i find it interesting that you found no practical differences between similar fill goose and duck down ... most marketing spiels go off about the "superiority" of goose over duck

that ~700 fill power may be more suitable for real world humidity has been known for some time on BPL

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=39920

Ryan Jordan
( ryan - BPL STAFF - M)

Locale:
Greater Yellowstone

NEW Re: Re: Re: Introduction to Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008 on 08/10/2008 08:04:56 MDT

Bill et al.,

I spoke at length with IDFL yesterday about down testing.

None of their tests stimulate real world testing. 900 fp in a test is going to be a pipe dream in the field, because they steam wash and dry the down to nearly zero humidity before doing the test. Ironically, this most recent iteration of test methods was designed to determine the maximum possible fill power for down rather than what it will look like in the field.

Interestingly as a side note, we did some 900 fp testing of down a few years ago on two manufacturer's 900 bags. We cut the bags open and sent them to IDFL. Neither made the claimed 900 spec (they tested 830-870 using the steam method). What was more dramatic was that when each down (which clearly came from different sources as evidenced by visual inspection) was subjected to 50% humidity, the differences were pretty dramatic. One bag tested at 770 fp, the other at 680 fp. It seems that at least these two sources of 900 down had feathers in it that were not resilient in response to humidity.

The kicker is that we ran the same test next to down taken from a manufacturer's 750 fp bag. at 50% humidity, the fp was 720. Why? It had more feathers that were stiff enough to preserve the loft in moist conditions.


;)

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: its here... tomorrow on 10/20/2013 19:03:16 MDT Print View

Ive been waiting along time to offer the Downtek. I'm a little excited:)

Doug,

Not sure what's going on with the pics. I'll have my web buddy give a look before we stick it in the root. I tried to add the stripes to the product page but it's a huge pain in the ars, same with down overstuff. I can't just make them add ons I have to manually enter a price for every possible combination of options.

-Tim

Edited by MarshLaw303 on 10/20/2013 19:13:17 MDT.

Gregory Hardy
(alpinetherapy)

Locale: North Carolina
mislabeled photos on 10/20/2013 19:19:31 MDT Print View

Tim,

They look amazing. Congrats on the new lineup. Small comment, the photo's for the 0* are labeled as 10*

- Greg

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: mislabeled photos on 10/20/2013 19:23:51 MDT Print View

0 30 and 50 are borrowing pics from the 40 20 and 10 that I have here. Once I get those done they'll get their own pics

Rebecca Canode
(bcanode) - F
website comments on 10/20/2013 19:26:06 MDT Print View

I checked out your beta website and had a few comments on the site.

It mentioned the optional Weather Resistant Stripes in the description, but there didn't seem to be an option to add that to the quilt when placing an order unless I clicked on the "Extreme Water resistant fabric stripes at the head and foot" under Materials. It seems like it would be better if this was an option when selecting the quilt.

The text on the pictures seem a bit blurry.

Also, on the page for Weather Resistant Stripes, it list three colors (Aspen Green, Sedona Sage and Blaze Orange), but only shows pictures of two colors.

When you click on the Tag for the temperature rating (http://www.beta.enlightenedequipment.com/?product_tag=10), the spacing is off and the price is wrapped on some products, but not others.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: website comments on 10/20/2013 19:38:16 MDT Print View

Anybody have thoughts on the new sizing structure or specs tables?

-Tim

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: website comments on 10/20/2013 19:40:37 MDT Print View

Looks very good Tim,

Christmas is coming :-)

David Mandrella
(thedavil)

Locale: Independence Lake
Enigma Quilt on 10/20/2013 20:10:47 MDT Print View

Hey Tim,

How about a black color option for the Waterproof Strips? Also, some info on the tech specs of the fabric would be a good addition. When do you plan to offer them in a wide?

I wonder how the 850 DownTek would fare in the 50% humidity versus the 750 Duck?

-Dave

Edited by thedavil on 10/20/2013 23:22:16 MDT.

James DeGraaf
(jdegraaf) - MLife

Locale: Bay Area
Re: Re: website comments on 10/20/2013 23:04:05 MDT Print View

Your quilts shrunk?! Must be from the flat foot box. Your six foot quilts used to fit me (6' 1") very well. Is that still true? And how do you select which width to get?

There also used to be a chart that had a range for height, do you still have that?

Other than that looks great!

-James

Edited by jdegraaf on 10/20/2013 23:26:37 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Enigma Quilt on 10/20/2013 23:33:21 MDT Print View

Dave,

50% is less than than the humidity used to determine fill power and the EN 13537 ratings. So, it will provide more insulation than the specs.

Edited by richard295 on 10/21/2013 03:12:57 MDT.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Enigma Quilt on 10/20/2013 23:46:08 MDT Print View

Hey Tim

You should have the overfill option with your other options in the drop menu (length width and color) options.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: website comments on 10/21/2013 06:03:54 MDT Print View

James,

Did they shrink? Kinda.

Due to the sewn footbox the enigma doesn't need to be as long to fit the same height user. So the template for my Rev 6' will actually fit upto 6'5" in an Enigma. But unlike before the fit info for the Enigma is the limit. With the Rev/Prod series you could push another inch or two, not with these.

I currently only have Regular and Long templates. The rest should go to the cutting shop this week but I'm not sure when they will get to them. I didn't want to wait any longer so I moved forward with limited sizing to start.

Aaron,

I agree, I'd much rather have the stripes and overstuff on the product page but my commerce solution isn't setup for it and the result is its very cumbersome to accomplish. I will be checking with them soon to see what can be done.

Thanks all for the feedback

-Tim

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Beta site on 10/21/2013 06:51:40 MDT Print View

Good morning Tim,
You might make me finally make a move on a quilt. Love the 15.25 oz. I'll do some more thinking and comparing tomorrow I guess. :(
Duane

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Beta site on 10/21/2013 07:23:28 MDT Print View

Yeah, they're pretty light!!

-Tim

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
website comments on 10/21/2013 09:03:10 MDT Print View

Well, if I could just now afford to bid over $500 on an old stove :( and not win the bid, I should be able to fork over some money for a quilt now and have gas money left over to drive somewhere.
Duane

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: website comments on 10/21/2013 09:33:03 MDT Print View

Hmm

It sure would be nice to know if the ordering experience was working correctly before replacing my existing site :)

-Tim

Jeff McWilliams
(jjmcwill) - M

Locale: Midwest
Slim/Regular/Wide options? on 10/21/2013 12:00:12 MDT Print View

I looked at the site for the 30 degree Enigma.

There are several mentions of slim/regular/wide widths, but no option to pick those options.

Am I missing something?

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Slim/Regular/Wide options? on 10/21/2013 12:03:00 MDT Print View

Yes, read the line right above the buying options and right bellow the orange 1-3 week wait notice.

I just have REG and LONG templates for these at this time but wanted to get going on them while I get the others made.

-Tim

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Re: Enigma Quilt on 10/21/2013 12:40:45 MDT Print View

So for everyone who suggested having overstuff and weather stripping :) on the main product page I found a plugin and made it work. Its not as pretty as I like but it sure is easier than what i was doing. Thanks for pushing me.

-Tim

David Mandrella
(thedavil)

Locale: Independence Lake
Quick Suggestions on 10/21/2013 12:56:29 MDT Print View

Weather Resistant stripes option does not reset when you hit "clear selection" button.

It says "Weather Resistant Stripes" twice.

Move the link for the stripes description link up to the new option box.

Long Size in the dropdown does not visually depict the "(+$10)" price adjustment.

Are you planning to have overfill options?

Also, one micro-gripe on your quilts is where the neck shock cord comes out of the top. It would be a ton better if that was on the side so it doesn't hang in your face..

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Re: Re: Epiphany on 10/21/2013 13:24:54 MDT Print View

Tim,

I am confused by the weather resistant stripes. What makes them weather resistant? There isn't much description on the product page for this upgrade.

Also, your site seems to be running slow. Might be because everyone is checking it out.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Quick Suggestions on 10/21/2013 13:35:22 MDT Print View

David,

Thanks for the heads up on the options showing up twice. Fixed easily.

Overfill will be available for the Enigma at some point but i don't think it is needed at all and I have a temp rating every 10*, so id rather not mess with it unless I must

I have tried the cord offset, at the edge and at the center and they all have good and bad points. The center cord is the easiest to find and adjust and once you sleep on your side either the offset cord is in your face anyway or behind your head where you cant reach it. Pulling the cord inside is a simple fix to keep it out of your face and at the same times makes it easy to adjust whole keeping your hands and arms inside the warm quilt.

-Tim

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: Quick Suggestions on 10/21/2013 13:35:31 MDT Print View

Also, one micro-gripe on your quilts is where the neck shock cord comes out of the top. It would be a ton better if that was on the side so it doesn't hang in your face.

A contrary preference ...

I have two MYOG quilts (as well as one of Tim's). One of my creations has the neck drawstring in the center and one has it offset 1/3 - 2/3). As one who switches sleep positions between left side, back and right side during every night I prefer the center position ... the offset drawstring is too awkward to locate when I'm facing away from it.

My center drawstring never hangs in my face because I keep it inside the quilt where it is easily accessible to loosen/tighten when I shift positions or to adjust venting as the temp changes, not outside.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Re: Quick Suggestions on 10/21/2013 13:50:56 MDT Print View

Ben,

The Stripes are made from more water resistant fabrics in the 1oz range. Aspen Impetus 1.1, Sedona Impetus 1.2 and a Orange 20D sample that didn't work for quilt shells but i have enough for a few stripes and they look so good.

Once i settle on one fabric (and probably 1 color sadly) I will post more detail. I often forget how much detail you guys like as most of the time adding the detail i have in the past just leads to explaining it 5 or 6 times a day :)

-Tim

Roger Coffey
(tachus1) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
new changes have sold me on 10/25/2013 22:49:46 MDT Print View

Thanks Tim for all the insight and prompt responses to my questions. I suppose the ordering process does work after all, cause a new Enigma quilt is being built for me now. It was easy and simple. Amost too easy!
Like a little boy at Christmas waiting on sleigh bells, I'm anxiously awaiting the squeeky brakes of the delivery truck. The timing was just perfect with the release of the quilt and my current equipment needs.
So as this post is related to recent product changes at EE, I can say you snagged me.
No complaints about what you're doing. This new quilt, at least in design, and hopefully in the field, will address some of the weaknesses I've experienced in other products.
Thanks.

alex hansen
(holden425)
Quilt temp ratings on 10/26/2013 10:05:34 MDT Print View

Rather than bother Tim with another email as I'm sure he has plenty right now with his new web launch and new product, question about the temp ratings I'm sure many of you can answer.
If I wanted a quilt to take me to 30* F, with layers including down jacket and base layers, should I consider a 40* quilt or a 30*?
Love the enigma btw Tim!

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Quilt temp ratings on 10/26/2013 10:20:51 MDT Print View

Alex,

I always add 10f on to a bags/quilts rating.

Roger Coffey
(tachus1) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
temp ratings on 10/26/2013 10:37:20 MDT Print View

Alex, my personal love of quilts is mostly centered on this very subject. The variable girth allows them to be camellion-like in use. The more you wear to bed, the less quilt you need.
The first time I ever used a quilt, it was a 40 degree golite, brand new. A weather front moved in with cold air across the mountains of New Mexico surprising me with a low 20's night time temp. I had a warm pad, and I put on all my warm gear (not much, really), cinched everything down tight and readied myself for a long and miserable night.
I slept like a baby. I was fine. Certainly not hot, but A OK.
I think the biggest factor is what kind of backcountry fella are you? Do you climb hard in minimal gear, then bed down quickly to survive the night? Then perhaps you do need a 20 degree bag for a 30 degree night. Or, do you get to camp early and enjoy lounging with the boys by a fire in your super awesome warm down pants and parka? Then I suspect a 40 degree quilt would more than do the trick. After all, you're gonna wear that stuff to bed.

alex hansen
(holden425)
my style on 10/26/2013 12:07:31 MDT Print View

roger,
i currently own an REI igneo 20, at 2 lbs, its great but i have yet to have the opportunity to use it in a climate where it is actually necessary to have a 20* bag.
i see myself somewhere between your two examples. i dont backpack with a camp fire much. i plan on hiking in the sierras mostly with 15-20 mile days during 3 seasons, and hopefully using my igneo in the winter season for the same purpose. i would be hiking till an hour before sunset then setting up camp, having a bit of dinner and hitting the sack. i may be using a bivy and/or tarp for shelter. i would like to use a stoic hadron for primary insulation and mid-heavyweight baselayers for sleep clothes

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
quilt on 10/26/2013 12:28:53 MDT Print View

"If I wanted a quilt to take me to 30* F, with layers including down jacket and base layers, should I consider a 40* quilt or a 30*?"

If you have a good pad, and down pants,maybe booties, I would think 40 would work fine.

But it depends.

If you can shift down to feet and legs like in the revelation, and have a puffy jacket on, 40 might be fine too.

I was fairly cold once at 28 with my 40F EE quilt, NO overstuff., thin baselayer and thin fleece, +beanie, on a GG nightlight pad and 1/8" thin CCF pad. Lets just say I was glad when it was time to get up and move around in the morning. It was also 34 when I went to bed, so I was at freezing or below for about 9 hrs. I wrapped my rainjacket around my feet, and that might have made a 1-2F difference there, I could feel it.

My torso wasnt really cold. Only my legs and feet. So, with down jacket, down pants, down booties, and on a good pad, I bet I would have been cozy down to mid 20s.

On a multiday trip where the down will lose loft from absorbing some body moisture, I wouldnt intentionally plan to go below the rating of the quilt. The clothing may be needed for that situation after several days.

Edited by livingontheroad on 10/26/2013 12:31:22 MDT.

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
2.5 ozs on 10/26/2013 12:59:50 MDT Print View

I have a 20 degree RevelationX, which I loved until I saw the Enigma :) In the summer months in the Sierras I have not generally needed to sleep in my hooded Stoic Hadron. So in the heart of the summer, a 30 degree Enigma would probably work well even if there is a cold snap (just add the Hadron). In the shoulder seasons, however, I have been very happy to have the 20 degree quilt rather than a lighter, but less warm quilt.

So what to do for 3-season use in the Sierras? Tough call. I personally would probably choose the 20 degree Enigma. It is still ridiculously light and only weighs 2.5 ozs more than the 30 degree Enigma. And even with the sewn footbox I think it can be reasonably vented during warmer weather. But my trips tend to be 3 to 4 days, where I am not as worried about a few ounces.

Either way the Enigma looks fantastic.

alex hansen
(holden425)
the 2.5 ounce difference.. on 10/26/2013 13:09:11 MDT Print View

the 2.5 ounce difference is not my biggest concern, though lighter is nice, i just cant justify buying another bag designed for the same temps as my current bag, especially when it would be costing 350ish dollars to save that Lb

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
Upgrading on 10/26/2013 13:19:23 MDT Print View

Alex, I understand not wanting to upgrade if you are duplicating your current gear. I suppose one choice is to sell the bag, but I know a lot of people don't like using quilts below freezing. I have taken my quilt down to around 20, and with a hooded down jacket it was perfectly fine. But I certainly understand the allure of a cozy mummy bag in really cold weather.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Upgrading on 10/26/2013 19:24:47 MDT Print View

I received a 1 off quilt from Tim today.
I Have been helping him out with his new fabric and sent him some stuff I had.

Tim offered me the mock up quilt he made with a few fabric samples including the fabric I sent him as the liner.
I was awe-struck and was thinking it would be a 40 degree synthetic quilt.

Holly crap, I opened the box and out pops a 20 degree RevX style quilt.
It has his newly moded karo dimensions and I was very surprised (having made 2 karo quilts myself) just how level the bag lays on top of you and didn't notice any down shift at all.

I have not ordered a quilt from Emlightened Equipment just because I have made every style and degree quilt I need for my backpacking needs.

The quality and construction of this quilt is top notch.
I love how many little tiny details he has in each quilt.
You can open it up flat and it has all the attachments needs to keep it on your pad.

If you are thinking about buying a quilt, don't be afraid of the karo design.
I'm sure other can attest to his new karo design as well.

Thanks Tim