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Jeffrey McConnell
(Catalyst) - F
Re: Submission on 07/21/2013 12:51:42 MDT Print View

"Have you ever seen the chain emails about women can "protect" themselves from rape? The ones that say to carry your keys poking through your fist and be prepared to fight and scream for help? Curious why it is common cultural "wisdom" to expect women to fight back against a potential attacker but that is not the case for a young man."

Fighting back is the key word there. I don't think anyone thinks that Martin shouldn't have fought back if he was attacked first.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Neighborhood Watch on 07/21/2013 12:53:46 MDT Print View

Not Neighborhood Follow
Not Neighborhood Attempt to Apprehend
Not Neighborhood Physically Confront

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Submission on 07/21/2013 12:54:14 MDT Print View

If Zimmerman was walking down the street and Martin attacked him, then Zimmerman would have been justified.

The problem is that Zimmerman was following Martin who he falsely suspected of being a criminal.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Submission on 07/21/2013 12:55:13 MDT Print View

Again why is Zimmerman's story credible here? "Because he is alive to tell it," is not a convincing answer.

Jeffrey McConnell
(Catalyst) - F
Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:57:21 MDT Print View

"I don't want people with guns identifying suspicious people, getting out of car and following them.

Neighborhood watch people should stay in car or house and call police.

The police should be the ones following suspects.

My opinion is based on this case."

I'm with you on that. If a neighborhood watch person is going to carry, there needs to be substantial training to prevent situations like this. I don't have a problem with him getting out of the car, but we just feel differently on that.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 13:01:09 MDT Print View

Does Zimmerman being alive make him less credible or more credible? Neither of course. But what is the alternative? An investigation found no holes in his story, and from a legal stand point you must have evidence to convict.

There is also no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's story about being snuck up on and assaulted. What about following someone justifies assault? Assuming that's all that Zimmerman did. There was no need for "submission" as you say, and if Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun you can bet he would not have assaulted him.

@ Jerry - The law does not agree. Poor decisions do not necessarily constitute recklessness. If that was the case, you would see manslaughter charges for car wrecks, etc

P.S.- My thoughts in this discussion come only from the perspective of the trial, legal case, etc. In other words, only what can be proven. I agree that its very possible Zimmerman is a cold blooded murderer.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 07/21/2013 13:11:19 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 13:06:51 MDT Print View

"If a neighborhood watch person is going to carry, there needs to be substantial training to prevent situations like this. I don't have a problem with him getting out of the car, but we just feel differently on that."

Maybe a proper training period. I sort of like the training period that police get. Even they get into problems killing people improperly.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
"No $%!+ there I was" on 07/21/2013 13:15:09 MDT Print View

My neighborhood is a couple miles outside of town but located near a highway where someone can make a quick getaway. The neighborhood is built around a small park and playground. We have a neighborhood watch in this community.

Last month, a ~ 25 y/o male who has never been seen here before or since was in the playground and made several attempts to strike up a conversation with the children there. No apparent violation of the law but behaving very suspiciously according to those who saw him.

What would you do in this situation?

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 13:20:03 MDT Print View

""In order to stay alive, Trayvon Martin should have _________.""

Ah, spelt, you talk of false equivalencies, and then want folks who refuse to take sides to answer a loaded question. Sorry, but I won't be dragged into that.

"For those claiming poor choices were made on both sides*"

Well now, since I'm one of them, let's talk a bit about your false equivalencies statement. Saying that each could have made different decisions, and if they had done so, the outcome would probably have been different, is not a false equivalency. I didn't say they were equally responsible for the tragedy. I didn't say their decisions were of equal weight. So, intended or not, you're misusing the term.

I'd reword your sentence to be less loaded, and answer you thus: if Trayvon Martin had called 911 when he was first being followed, he might (MIGHT) still be alive. If Trayvon Martin had continued running back to his father's house, he might still be alive (I can't believe Zimmerman could have kept up with him). I'm sure there are probably other decisions along the timeline of events that could have changed the course of what happened. And, obviously, Zimmerman could (and, in my opinion should) have made different decisions in the timeline of events.

This does not mean I blame Martin for his death - I don't. I blame Zimmerman for Martin's death.

Jeffrey McConnell
(Catalyst) - F
Re: "No $%!+ there I was" on 07/21/2013 13:29:14 MDT Print View

Ian, I was actually in a similar situation. I chose to walk up to the individual and strike up a conversation - typical for parents at a playground. The man turned out to be a nice guy who recently moved into the area. I see him every now and then at the playground. Awkward situation at first though. We both joke about it now.

Edited by Catalyst on 07/21/2013 13:34:44 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: "No $%!+ there I was" on 07/21/2013 14:01:41 MDT Print View

Jeff, pretty much what happened in my scenario as well.

I introduced myself and politely explained to him what our obvious concerns were. He had a legitimate reason to be in the neighborhood, I apologized for bothering him, and we were both smiling as I walked away. If I would have behaved like I was Billy Badass when I approached him, I doubt that anyone would have been shot but I would have unnecessarily escalated the situation.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 07/21/2013 14:03:54 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 14:04:51 MDT Print View

"If Trayvon Martin had continued running back to his father's house, he might still be alive"

I agree. One of the two lessons to be learned. If you start hitting someone it is more likely you will be hurt or killed.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: "No $%!+ there I was" on 07/21/2013 14:10:25 MDT Print View

"Last month, a ~ 25 y/o male who has never been seen here before or since was in the playground and made several attempts to strike up a conversation with the children there. No apparent violation of the law but behaving very suspiciously according to those who saw him.

What would you do in this situation?"

Call police.

Hang around until police arrive.

Maybe start conversation with him but assume he's innocent.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: "No $%!+ there I was" on 07/21/2013 14:22:13 MDT Print View

"Call police.

Hang around until police arrive.

Maybe start conversation with him but assume he's innocent."

Certainly nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with adults discussing their concerns with each other in a non-hostile and mature way.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 07/21/2013 15:00:16 MDT Print View

Innocent until proven guilty.

It boils down to that.
Proven. Not "likely too" " pretty sure" " must have" " I feel strongly" " I am mad/sad there fore...."
Proven.

I would rather there be a system where the guilty occasionally make it out free, than one were more innocent people get convicted just to make sure no guilty ones run free.
That may be the case here, or not, we really do not know.

Should any of us be involved and charged for something, we would all hope to have to be proven guilty . None of us would like a bunch of well meaning(..) , sad and angry folks to make that call.
Too many seem to be making that call here.


When this happens I was very upset and outraged. I am still upset and hold Zimmerman responsible, but my feelings should not be what decide his fate.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re on 07/21/2013 15:42:47 MDT Print View

LEGALLY speaking I pretty much agree with the verdict. I don't like it, I think Zimmerman deserves to have his life ruined and to have this hounding him until the day he dies.

But...

I agree that the prosecution blew it, the police blew it, lots of people blew it. There is plenty of reasonable doubt, and massive liberal that I am I do believe that it is better that 10 guilty people go free than 1 innocent one be imprisoned. So in this case, yes, because Zimmerman is the only one around to tell his story, and that story is POSSIBLE, then he goes free.

But society doesn't have to welcome him and his awful decisions back with open arms. He never, ever should have gotten out of that car. His MySpace page (since deleted, but you can find bits n pieces around) is full of racist, hateful innuendo, and his comments about "these assholes always get away with it" further demonstrate a man who more than likely got in way over his head. As someone else pointed out earlier, police are trained at de-escalation without resorting to a gun. What about Zimmerman? Pretty sure he wasn't trained that way. A prior protective order against him for domestic violence? Yeah, the guy should not be taking policing matters into his own hands.

Neighborhood WATCH. The signs say "we call police" and nothing about our untrained wild-west gunslingers are going to hunt you down.

And by the way, didn't Martin tell his friend on the phone that some guy was following him and it was making him nervous? I still don't see why Martin didn't have the right to defend himself as well.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re on 07/21/2013 16:19:11 MDT Print View

I don't think society will welcome him back with open arms; "society" does little of that..
I really think he will not do something like this again, and that, coupled with having to deal with his own conscience, is all I can personally wish for him at this point.
For the rest of us, I hope that this sad episode will be a stepping stone toward a better understanding of profiling and, as the President put it, the "context" that so many are not willing or able to look at when it comes to the pain that the African American community is feeling; the "context" under which this same community is suffering the violent loss of so many of their young men, so often by their peers.
I have not been a fan of President Obama as of late....but what he spoke about was much more relevant to me as a whole than any discussion of guilt or innocence. I admire the fact that for the most part, he did not seem to use this tragedy for political gain, at least in my opinion.
Others are making this all about their own agenda or angle.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/21/2013 19:06:48 MDT Print View

"I agree that the prosecution blew it, the police blew it"

I tuned out this case and have probably shown the most interest in it here on BPL for reasons unknown.

What exactly did the police do wrong with this case? If a police officer doesn't feel that the suspect committed a crime, she/he is legally and ethically prohibited from making an arrest. The police officers are limited on how long they can stop someone before they either make an arrest or let the person go. My guess is that they were able to convince him to voluntarily go with them to the station to file a report but did not get what they needed to show that Zimmerman violated the law. Just because someone is dead does not necessarily mean that there was a crime.

Same goes for the prosecutor. From what I can tell the reason the prosecutors took this turd of a case on was that it was politically unwise not to. Don't get me wrong, I can see how they could indict him (PC vs reasonable doubt) but I suspect they knew they had a slim chance of winning this case.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 07/21/2013 19:20:45 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/21/2013 20:26:56 MDT Print View

Given the history of white people killing black people and the police doing nothing, I think they had to do something even if there was just a small chance of conviction.

The police had to be "dragged kicking and screaming" before they charged Zimmerman, but eventually they did.

Maybe the prosecutors could have just charged him with manslaughter. Had some experts to say neighborhood watch should just call 911 and not get out of vehicle. Talking about whose scream it was was just a waste of time. But that's easy to say on hind sight.

Given that one juror that talked to Anderson Cooper, I don't think they would have ever found him guilty. And same thing with a lot of BPL people, they (you) just don't see anything wrong with Zimmerman getting out of vehicle rather than letting the police deal with it.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/21/2013 21:01:27 MDT Print View

"Given the history......"

Almost says that Zimmerman had to pay for everyone else's sins.

There is a history and it is a sad one. The right thing should be done, within the justice system.

You seem a little extreme Jerry.