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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Zimmerman? on 07/20/2013 21:40:23 MDT Print View

Not that it matters, but if I was on the jury I would have voted for manslaughter, but I accept that the jury concluded it wasn't proven beyond reasonable doubt. That one juror said that initially, 2 of the 6 thought he was guilty of manslaughter and another thought he was guilty of 2nd degree murder so I think it was a close call.

Zimmerman told the 911 operator that Trevon was a criminal and Zimmerman wouldn't let him get away with it. Zimmerman got out of the car to follow Trevon. This was reckless in my opinion and as a result Trevon was killed, thus guilty of manslaughter.

Trevon was walking home from the store. He had smoked marijuana, had some problems in school, etc, but no evidence that he was committing any crime like breaking into a house. He was between the store and his house and had stuff with him that he bought at the store.

Some creep was following him in a car and got out. Trevon should have run away, not hit Zimmerman. That confuses things.

I think for 2nd degree murder, Zimmerman would have had to intend to kill Trevon, but I think he just intended to aprehend him, so not guilty of this.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Zimmerman? on 07/20/2013 22:16:23 MDT Print View

"Zimmerman told the 911 operator that Trevon was a criminal and Zimmerman wouldn't let him get away with it."

Perhaps you should read the transcript of the 911 call instead of some left leaning writer's take on the transcript.

And Jerry, did you watch all of the trial, every second of it? Because that's the only way you could form an educated opinion on how you would have voted, unless you made up your mind before the trial even started.....

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Zimmerman? on 07/20/2013 22:45:56 MDT Print View

No, I only watched a little

Mostly I heard the mainstream media accounts because it was so saturated

If I made up my mind before hand from liberal sources I would think Zimmerman was a racist and guilty of 2nd degree murder : )

Okay, I listened to the transcript. He said things like Trevon was up to no good, suspicious looking. Something about criminals getting away with it. 911 told him they didn't need Zimmerman to follow him. Zimmerman was breathing hard so he must have gotten out of his car looking for Trevon while he was talking to 911. There was more than a minute after 911 told Zimmerman they didn't need Zimmerman to follow Trevon before call ended.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zimmerman? on 07/20/2013 22:50:53 MDT Print View

There you go with that 'criminal' word again. He never said Martin was a criminal. Words matter.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zimmerman? on 07/20/2013 23:15:44 MDT Print View

"These assholes, they always get away"

Yeah, words matter : )

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Zimmerman? on 07/21/2013 07:51:17 MDT Print View

They do, Jerry, glad to see you finally got them right. :-)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Zimmerman? on 07/21/2013 09:03:39 MDT Print View

I forgot, Doug is a secret liberal trying to help me out : )

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Creepy on 07/21/2013 09:28:49 MDT Print View

Kind of like "creepy a$$ cracker"

Two idiots go head to head.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 09:43:02 MDT Print View

There were definitely poor choices by both Zimmerman and Martin. Either of them probably could have prevented this tragedy if either or both of them had made different decisions that night.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 11:30:04 MDT Print View

For me, it all boils down to why Zimmerman got out of his car and followed him. The 911 operator said "you don't need to do that," as a neighborhood watch guy he didn't need to do that...just call the police and let them handle it.

The definition of manslaughter is if the defendants actions recklessly caused the death of another; Zimmerman never even denied that he got out of his car to follow the kid.

So to me, whether or not I watched the trial...if Zimmerman just left it to the cops like he was supposed to Martin would still be alive.

Not sure what else matters...

By the way, there is a great case in Florida right now where a house burglar shot the homeowner who was coming after him...then claimed stand your ground...that the burglar had a right to defend himself against the aggressor (the homeowner). How is this any different from the Zimmerman case?

Lets just say Zimmerman was defending himself...it he was the one following Martin, wouldn't Martin have a right to defend himself from this "creepy guy" following him in the neighborhood? How was Martin supposed to know that Zimmerman was a good guy? Didn't Martin have the right to defend HIMSELF?

Just asking....

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:18:39 MDT Print View

Those are good questions Jennifer. Ones I don't have great answers to. Just to play devil's advocate though - Does Zimmerman following him justify Martin assaulting Zimmerman? This is assuming Zimmerman did nothing else to provoke it if course. While Zimmerman made a poor decision in following Martin, is it illegal or reckless to do so? I wouldn't think so?

I wish there was a way to know what actually happened. Most folks would embellish the story once the police got involved. I do feel bad for all involved. Poor decisions on both sides led to a tragedy.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 07/21/2013 12:27:13 MDT.

Jeff M.
(Catalyst)

Locale: Costa Mesa, CA
Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:22:56 MDT Print View

"The definition of manslaughter is if the defendants actions recklessly caused the death of another; Zimmerman never even denied that he got out of his car to follow the kid."

"Reckelssly" is the key word there and is a higher standard than some might think. His actions weren't close to reckless, in my opinion, legally speaking.


"So to me, whether or not I watched the trial...if Zimmerman just left it to the cops like he was supposed to Martin would still be alive.

Not sure what else matters..."

He was "supposed" to leave it to the cops? Because you think so? Not trying to attack, just pointing out that is your opinion. Putting myself in that situation, I think I probably would have gotten out of the car too. People are making a big deal about him following the kid. If I saw a suspicious person and I was working as neighborhood watch, I'd want to know where he was headed so I could tell the cops. I'd also probably want to get a half decent look at him so I could describe him later in case something happened, especially if there had been break ins in the past. That's just me though.

What I think is more important is whether Martin came up behind Zimmerman and attacked him like he claims. If so, that's why he's dead. If not, Zimmerman's likely a liar and a murderer. But, blaming him because he got out of the car seems a little silly to me. There are other more key actions taken by both of them that likely contributed to the death - it's just hard because no one knows what they are for sure.


"Lets just say Zimmerman was defending himself...it he was the one following Martin, wouldn't Martin have a right to defend himself from this "creepy guy" following him in the neighborhood? How was Martin supposed to know that Zimmerman was a good guy? Didn't Martin have the right to defend HIMSELF?"

Self defense law is all about the specific actions of each person. In one moment a person can gain or lose the right to self defense depending on their actions and the situation. Just following someone doesn't give you the right to attack them. If Zimmerman tried to grab or handle Martin in some way, then I'd say yes.

The other FL case you mention is interesting and a good example showing how self defense law can get tricky.

Edited by Catalyst on 07/21/2013 12:24:28 MDT.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:24:07 MDT Print View

I'd love to see some answers too, Jen. What was Martin supposed to do, exactly? For those claiming poor choices were made on both sides* , complete the following sentence:

"In order to stay alive, Trayvon Martin should have _________."

*the exact sort of false equivalency I mentioned in my last foray into Chaff...hopefully I will learn the virtue of choosing my battles sooner rather than later.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:32:14 MDT Print View

In order to stay alive, Trayvon Martin should not have attacked Zimmerman without provocation. We have to assume he did so since the only witness still living is Zimmerman.

Ryan

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:39:33 MDT Print View

"While Zimmerman made a poor decision in following Martin, is it illegal or reckless to do so? I wouldn't think so?"

I think Zimmerman carrying gun, following Martin in car, and getting out of car to follow Martin on foot were together reckless. And his comments to 911 like assholes getting away.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:39:53 MDT Print View

So to be clear, Trayvon should have submitted himself to a stranger with a gun.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:42:56 MDT Print View

Also curious why we are under obligation to assume the witness is telling the truth just because he is the alive one of the two. Does that automatically make him credible somehow?

Jeff M.
(Catalyst)

Locale: Costa Mesa, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:43:04 MDT Print View

"So to be clear, Trayvon should have submitted himself to a stranger with a gun."

Was the alternative better? We can probably assume he didn't know Zimmerman even had a gun.

Edited by Catalyst on 07/21/2013 12:44:45 MDT.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Submission on 07/21/2013 12:46:42 MDT Print View

Have you ever seen the chain emails about women can "protect" themselves from rape? The ones that say to carry your keys poking through your fist and be prepared to fight and scream for help? Curious why it is common cultural "wisdom" to expect women to fight back against a potential attacker but that is not the case for a young man.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Creepy on 07/21/2013 12:51:00 MDT Print View

I don't want people with guns identifying suspicious people, getting out of car and following them.

Neighborhood watch people should stay in car or house and call police.

The police should be the ones following suspects.

My opinion is based on this case.