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The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3
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Maia Jordan
(maia) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/16/2013 19:31:14 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/16/2013 20:00:44 MDT Print View

I must have missed it. What is the final weight of the entire stove?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/16/2013 23:39:29 MDT Print View

Hi Nick

FMS-300T version with centre-support legs: 85 g complete
FMS-116T version with centre-support legs: 89 g complete

Change to tripod legs with 1 mm aluminium: add 'a few grams', exact detail uncertain at present.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Legs: centre-support vs tripod on 07/16/2013 23:44:46 MDT Print View

Hi all

Following comments in the part 2 thread, I have been looking again at the question of centre-support legs vs genuine tripod legs. Making tripod legs (no centre-support) out of 0.8 mm aluminium is a bit risky imho. I have done it, but they can bend if treated roughly. (Yes, you can straighten them many times, but ...)

So I am looking at using 1.0 mm aluminium sheet for tripod legs. This will be stiffer. However, I haven't made them up yet so I can't say what the weight penalty might be. As indicated above, it will probably be 'a few grams'. I will update as soon as I have a definite weight.

Cheers

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Legs: centre-support vs tripod on 07/17/2013 00:11:23 MDT Print View

We don't speak metric in California, but we may when we complete our conversion to Spanish.

But my interpretor tells me that 89g is less than half the weight of a WindPro II, which runs about $99 with windscreen and reflector base and a plastic canister stand.

Windscreen, reflector and stand are additional weight.

samuel fonteneau
(samol)
stove on 07/17/2013 03:13:47 MDT Print View

Thanks again Roger for that great post. Seeing all the clever work you did, I'm very interested in testing one.
Regards
Samuel

Edited by samol on 07/17/2013 03:20:06 MDT.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 04:54:16 MDT Print View

Roger, Well Done!

As much as I dislike canister stoves, I would be willing to "test" one in the ADK's. (Though I will be out of commision for a few weeks as my ribs heal from a slip on some slipery rocks up there.)I'll contact you at your e-mail.

One thing that strikes me is the center support for the unit. This could easily be supplied by increasing the length of the lower mounting screw used for attaching the legs.

Using a standard vortex style burner is a great idea. I might behoove you to make available both topper set ups and the winter stove set up if you have to buy the burners anyway.

Well engineered and well documented.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 05:31:15 MDT Print View

Hi James

No rush - I am still making all the parts. Time for ribs to heal!

> supplied by increasing the length of the lower mounting screw used for attaching the legs.
Hum, yes, but the screw would then be 25 mm long (~1"). It might look a bit strange... Dunno.

> I might behoove you to make available both topper set ups and the winter stove set up
> if you have to buy the burners anyway.
Sorry - not understood???
Do you mean include the burner body from the original stove? That's easy to do, but you then have to be happy doing a bit of engineering to strip and rebuild.

Cheers

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 06:00:11 MDT Print View

>> I might behoove you to make available both topper set ups and the winter stove >set up
>> if you have to buy the burners anyway.
>Sorry - not understood???
>Do you mean include the burner body from the original stove? That's easy to do, but >you then have to be happy doing a bit of engineering to strip and rebuild.

Yes. I do not mind a bit of tinkering. I am sure it is not beyond most. But, as you say, putting down a white bandana to hold the parts would help.

1" screw? Well, the bears won't care what it looks like. I was thinking that you could reduce the amount of metal in the legs...

Anyway, PM sent at your AU address.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Legs: centre-support vs tripod on 07/17/2013 06:32:07 MDT Print View

>We don't speak metric in California, but we may when we complete our conversion to >Spanish.

>But my interpretor tells me that 89g is less than half the weight of a WindPro II, >which runs about $99 with windscreen and reflector base and a plastic canister >stand.

>Windscreen, reflector and stand are additional weight.

Well, for those that do not speak metric, 90g is about 3-1/4oz. Ultra LIGHT...good enough to use for all excursions, even if you don't do much winter camping.

The primary benefits are being able to couple the stove with a Caldera Cone (Sidewinder and the like) for increased efficiency, since it is made of heat tolerant materials. The 3-4oz wind screen will eventually pay off on hikes of about a weeks length. I use about 2 liters per day, breakfast and supper. This will improve efficiency from a shade over a quarter ounce per liter to about a fifth ounce per liter. This means that two canisters will last a full two weeks with some to spare. In the past, three 100g canisters(~4oz) were required (since I also do a bit of cooking.) By using two, it drops ~7oz (canister and fuel) making it the lightest most efficient setup to carry for up to 19 days(without cooking, just boiling water.) Even for others, they could consider using a cone, provided you light the stove before putting the cone over it.

Like any other well designed piece of camp gear, simple and flexible.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Legs: centre-support vs tripod on 07/17/2013 07:58:07 MDT Print View

Nice series of articles. I wish other manufacturers would go into such detail about how their products were designed.

3 1/4 ounces - that's just a little bit more than upright canister stoves. That's always been a big negative for me about inverted stoves.

When the burner is so close to the ground like yours, you don't need a windscreen so much. And the windscreen can be smaller/lighter.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Legs: centre-support vs tripod on 07/17/2013 09:18:10 MDT Print View

"We don't speak metric in California, but we may when we complete our conversion to Spanish."

Nick, you do speak metric. You have a metric crescent wrench, don't you?

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Legs: centre-support vs tripod on 07/17/2013 09:27:24 MDT Print View

"Nick, you do speak metric. You have a metric crescent wrench, don't you?"

No, my crescent wrenches are measured in inches of length :)

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Xtreme rod on 07/17/2013 11:23:22 MDT Print View

Nice work, Roger!

I've long been puzzled by the rod in the Coleman Xtreme fuel tube.
You mentioned that the rod likely performed the same function as yours -- fuel spreader and heat exchanger.

But in the Xtreme, the rod is upstream of the pre-heat loop, and it is physically (and thermally) far from the flame heat source. Don't these characteristics severely limit its usefulness in smoothly vaporizing the fuel?

Best Regards,

-Mike

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Re: Re: Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 14:11:18 MDT Print View

Wow! I'll admit, I skimmed the article, but this part is huge:

FMS-300T version with centre-support legs: 85 g complete
FMS-116T version with centre-support legs: 89 g complete

A winter stove for around three ounces? Sounds great to me. As mentioned, this is great even if you don't do any winter camping. The fantastic part about the stove is that you can build a windscreen without worrying about overheating the canister. This is much simpler (or much safer) than most canister based windscreens. A little foil and you have a rock solid, safe, windproof stove for less than four ounces. Excellent.

Monty Montana
(TarasBulba) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 16:22:39 MDT Print View

Hi Roger!

I'd be interested in one of your stoves to test. I have quite a collection that I've accumulated over the years beginning with the original Gerry canister stove from the '60s...in fact I still have some of the canisters that go with it. They are sans the Lindel valve, instead they have a bulbous rubber thingy that the inlet tube penetrated. Seemed to work ok for the years that I used it. Anyway, I'll send you my PM.

Thanks for your insightful and professional work on this!

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 17:55:41 MDT Print View

I guess I'll have to pony up the funds to become a paying member to see what the fuss is about. Is there a time frame for when the stove will be available to us who camp year round? It sure would be nice to shave some more weight off my winter gear. I collect stoves, so this might be neat to get ahold of.
Duane

Oliver Nissen
(olivernissen) - MLife

Locale: Yorkshire Dales
Canister connector 3D printable on 07/17/2013 18:03:12 MDT Print View

Was/could a 3d printer be used to make the canister connector? (I'm learning Rhino (CAD) at work at the moment and I've simply got to put these skills to use somewhere in real life!)

This is fascinating and inspiring stuff Roger - many thanks for your excellent work.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: The Evolution of a Winter Stove - Part 3 on 07/17/2013 19:51:37 MDT Print View

Very nice, Roger.

89g ... 3.14oz ... the pi stove!

Some other dimensions would be nice (height, what diameter circles would circumscribe legs and pot supports)

Perhaps a photo of the stove folded up for packing?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Xtreme rod on 07/17/2013 20:03:13 MDT Print View

Hi Mike

> You mentioned that the rod likely performed the same function as yours -- fuel
> spreader and heat exchanger.
> But in the Xtreme, the rod is upstream of the pre-heat loop, and it is physically
> (and thermally) far from the flame heat source. Don't these characteristics severely
> limit its usefulness in smoothly vaporizing the fuel?

Ha! Fire up an Xtreme and see how hot the straight brass bit with the rod in it gets. The top of the loop is in the flame, and probabaly gets to 400 C. The upstream section won't get that hot, but it will be well over 0 C. And butane boils at 0 C. Butane and propane are not the same as white gas and kero.

Cheers