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Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie
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I'm Joe
(imjoe)
Re: Re: Re: Fosters cook kit on 08/02/2013 20:18:04 MDT Print View

Thanks for the in depth response. A lot to take in but definitely good stuff. It will be hard to make use of some of the suggestions while trying to maintain my price point but good ideas none the less. I'm going to have to give the fosters can a shot but I don't think it has the efficiency I'm looking for. I like to tinker so it would be fun even if I don't use it regularly. For warmer summer nights I plan on coming up with some lighter MYOG quilt. Thanks for the info on the other guys. I'll have to check them out.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fosters cook kit on 08/02/2013 20:52:58 MDT Print View

The way I look at it is this. You are about to spend $675 on heavier gear.

IE cook pot, screen, tent, pack and a 20dF bag.

We have all done it here and later say, self why did I do that - LOL.

A Fosters rig with the koolaid container and a foil wind screen probably cost $10 to make.
Zpacks hexamid - $295
Zpacks Arc - Blast 60L (bigger) - $290
MYOG M50 and 2.5 or 5oz climashield depending on what you want to build - $100

Total of $695.

From that you have a good base to build off and then upgrade as you go. Alternately spend an extra $100 and get a down quilt now. They are nice. I used to have a golite ultra 20 that weighed 21 oz for a long and like an idiot sold it. Oh well.

BTW - You should be able to find driducks on ebay for about $15-20 with free shipping.

From looking at your list again I think some of your weights are off and you have some equipment that is missing. Probably about a pound of it here and there.

At any rate you can still accomplish what you want to do, only with a one person tent at 4# lighter and $20 more than your current list if you MYOG a quilt or about $120 more with Tims 20dF down quilt.

Edited by tammons on 08/02/2013 20:54:21 MDT.

I'm Joe
(imjoe)
. on 08/02/2013 21:24:00 MDT Print View

I'm going to have to go with a 2 person tent as I'll be occasionally bringing my gf. I'm also probably not going to go with a synthetic quilt. So the savings aren't quite as easy. Also, it is possible my weights are off, I've pulled most of my numbers from websites. If you can think of anything I'm missing let me know. I appreciate the reminder on the food bag. Forgot about that one.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/03/2013 11:52:49 MDT Print View

You will eventually get tired of lugging around a 2 person tent when you are out solo hiking but understand if the GF is along. One thing that is fantastic is when you are two in a tent is 2 sleeping bags that zip together and that is fantasic and I can almost guarantee you your girlfriend, if she is not a hard core hiker will most likely prefer a bag to a quilt.

Quilt sleeping in colder weather has a learning curve whereas a bag you just zip it up.

Also the addition of a 2nd body in a double bag adds a lot of warmth so maybe you dont need a 20dF quilt/bag with her along.

Or if she is cool with quilts then a double would be the way to go IMO.

Still I think an Arc-Blast would be worth the $ now if you can afford it. With her along you will need 60L since you will be carrying more.

For solo you might want to look at making some solo gear in the future, like a MYOG tarp and maybe a climasheild quilt to fit your solo adventures. Both relatively cheap. Also a smaller cookpot, since you dont need one that big for a 2-3 day solo. Some other odds and ends.

Also one day you might want to try out hammocks. I like them and they are cheap to make, like $20 with walmart or other nylon ripstop 2nds and you are off the ground but you need under insulation. My hammock base right now for 45dF is about 8.5#.

With an UL hammock setup and a lot of cuben you can get that down to about 6# in the summer.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
evolution on 08/03/2013 12:42:44 MDT Print View

Since you are a newbie, heres how it works.

You think you only want to go out for 2-3 days. But thats only one or two nights. For sure, one night is not enough time to play with your new gear toys. All walking and no playing with new stuff.

Then you discover that simple trips of even 15-20 miles, are really just an overnight trip when you walk most of the day. Youve got to do more miles if you actually want to get to use your great new gear much at all. You love your new tent and fluffy sleeping bag and want to use them.

Now you figure out finally, since you are walking 30+ miles at a time, that its easier to walk with light stuff, so you start aquiring new lighter gear. Gear you really should have bought the first time to save spending the $$ twice.

Then you discover that with the lighter pack, you can walk 15-20 miles, or more, per day and your trips have to get even longer if you actually want to play with these $$ toys.

Pretty soon you are doing hundred + mile trips that are a week long, and pushing yourself to see how far you can go some days. You keep lightening the pack (more $$) as you set your goals on occasional 30+ mile days, and long unsupplied wilderness traverses. Why? Because when you are light, you can. And you have to in order to be interested, a 5 mile hike to camp at a spot no longer cuts it for you.

Edited by livingontheroad on 08/03/2013 12:46:10 MDT.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Re: Re: Grease pot on 08/03/2013 13:15:37 MDT Print View

>With a pot lifter I would have to find another place to store it and it wouldnt be self contained at that point. My ideal cookset will nest entirely in the pot...

Say what now? I put my pot lifter in the pot, next to the SuperCat stove, the windscreen, the lighter, and sometimes even a fuel bottle if it's a short trip.

BTW, a common UL mod is to trim your pot lifter to length preference. It's soft aluminum. I've seen two-inch lifters. People who carry multi-tools just use pliers.

But, do as you wish, I understand not wanting a separate lifting tool.

Lifters do have upsides: (1) makes sliding into the cozy easy, no obstructions. (2) No rivets or welds on the pot. (3) No need to put a notch into your windscreen to make room for the attached handles.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/03/2013 15:51:55 MDT Print View

You might want to check this out.

$100 will save you 3# if you wait to upgrade some of the smaller stuff.
Reason for the Montbell #3 bag is so you can get a left and right zip and connect them
together.

If you cant afford all of it get a junker $50 pack then upgrade to an Arc later.

All the little stuff you can add as you go.

The big expense is really going to be getting your GF set up too.

I added some things you missed. A bit over a pound and when you start packing for real that will grow. Things I did not list you probably need to carry some extra cordage too like the SUL Zpacks stuff, cell phone and a few other things I did not think of like hiking poles etc. According to your current list, I would guess in reality you will end up at about 12# base and maybe more with the GF in tow.

Weights of the last 3 can vary.

Also there are other manuf like bearpaw for one that sells cuben shelters, IE you could go with his cuben shaped tarp and a net tent and ditch the net when solo in colder weather.

 photo listnew_zps04230172.jpg

Edited by tammons on 08/03/2013 16:00:18 MDT.

I'm Joe
(imjoe)
Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/03/2013 21:50:40 MDT Print View

Every time I get new suggestions the total cost keeps creeping up. It's gotten to the point where I need to remind myself of my original goal of remaining cheapish while staying light and not making too many sacrifices. I don't see the point in spending $400 on a UL double tent when I'm trying to keep close to $750. I understand that mean I might not having the lightest setup on the trail but that isn't my goal. I'm trying to find the setup for the new guy that gets the best bang for the buck. So yeah I might have an overkill 20dF quilt in the summer but I won't have to spend any extra when I need something in the shoulder months. Again, I can't justify $275 on a pack with my budget goals but I can still be on the upper end of ultralight with a $110 pack. So yeah I can save 3 pounds and only spend an extra $100 but it also means that I can't hit the trail in early April without being forced to spend money on another sleeping system. I'm also confused on the suggestion to buy a junker pack and then upgrade later. I'd be afraid that may risk discomfort and put a bad taste in my mouth for the whole experience. I'd much rather but decent but not great stuff and then sell and upgrade along the way. It allows me to get into ultralight backpacking now, get a feel for where I think I can best spend my money on upgrades in the future, and not wait an extra season because I can't afford a the really nice gear now.

Looking at your suggestions for the the things I missed I think that some tweaking can be made there. The double rainbow comes with stakes so those can be removed. I'm not going to need a pack cover since I'm shoving most things in the compactor bag. As for the medical/emergency gear I think I can keep that under 4oz looking at some other people's lists. And 7oz for toiletries sounds like a lot too. I think I can keep it under 5 without much effort.

I agree about ditching the second flashlight. That was something I was unsure of in case I ever needed to night hike. Forgot the cellphone weight so add 5oz as well. I won't be using hiking poles so we can keep that off the list. I need to finish my list but I think I can stay decently below 12lbs maybe below 11lbs... I dunno. More tweaking to do.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/03/2013 22:25:04 MDT Print View

Trust me, you need a pack cover or wear an extended poncho.
First time out in the rain without one and you will know why.

I was going by your total on your original list of $1085 but $750 is along ways from that in terms of UL gear, but what I will say in general is buy the best and lightest big 3 you can afford. The DR is a great tent, but just not for soloing if you want to go UL, IE under a real 10#.

I would probably just start buying top shelf used gear and or MYOG what you can and cheap out on the little things that are easy to upgrade later. Your current big 3 will set you back $600 now and you will probably sell 2/3ds of it next year and buy lighter like we all have.

Also as an FYI the only montbell #3 that comes in L + R zip is the UL SS down hugger if you are interested in one of those.

What you are trying to do IE under 10# on $750 is not easy.
12# however is pretty easy to hit on a budget and 12# is not that bad, IE for you, 3 days, 6# of food, 4# of water and 22# total.

If you look at the loner video #20, I bet he does not have much over $850 in his 9# setup, but he bought some of that used.

So for a 12# base a pretty easy breakup is 6# for your big 4, IE tent with ground cloth, stakes etc, sleeping bag, pad and pack with TC bag and rain cover if any.
6# for everything else.

Right now your big 4 is at 7# so your base will most likely end up at 13# or so.

Edited by tammons on 08/03/2013 22:45:45 MDT.

I'm Joe
(imjoe)
Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/03/2013 23:06:51 MDT Print View

So I did a little more tweaking. If I can keep my medical/emergency and toiletries under 8 oz I should be able to keep my base at 11 lbs. Unless I'm still missing something.

Also, if need be the ground sheet can double as a pack cover in a pinch.

gear list

Thanks again for all of the input.

Edited by imjoe on 08/03/2013 23:08:33 MDT.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re:towel/compass on 08/04/2013 08:07:57 MDT Print View

"As for the compass I don't really have a major need for one. My navigation and map reading abilities should suffice. 6 years in the Marines makes for a lot of land nav practice."


You can use a bandana for so many things and use the savings on a basic baseplate compass. Your statement is a classic for getting in trouble in the backcountry. Map reading is great until it is dark or foggy. Buy a compass and use it.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 08:48:09 MDT Print View

Bored so long...LOL

Once again I will say invest in a pack cover or use a poncho. Its your call but
I would not use a ground cloth to cover my pack personally but you can try it.

Numbers look about right.

You will probably want a separate hood for your quilt. Thats a typical pice of quilt gear. You will not always want to wear a non zip-able Stoic under a 20dF quilt just for the hood.

If you are really going to be out in 20-30dF weather, in the future, you might want to consider a warmer jacket or an additional layer, and an additional cheap pad and carry the driducks full suit instead of just the top since it works as a layer. Also I am not sold on trash bag skirts. Too clingy for me when in shorts and my legs are wet. I prefer chaps but to each his own. You can try a bag out. Its certainly cheap enough.

Another item in cold weather is you might want to think about your base layer. I got some Indera Polypro johns on ebay (blue) that weigh about 7.5oz either top or bottom for XL and they are very warm. They are good enough and cheap enough that I actually want to pick up a couple more sets.

Just food for thought, I really like down gear a lot, but if I am going to be in rainy weather, which you may not, I prefer synthetics. They dont pack down or last when over compressed like down which is a huge negative, but in general these days a M50 climasheild insulated jacket and quilt can be as light as down gear and it dries in a fraction of the time that down does. I know you are not going on a thru hike, but take a climashield quilt or jacket, throw it into a drier for 15 minutes and its bone dry.

Case in point, I made a M90 climashield jacket with a removable hood from left over stuff I had laying around. A real PIA to make and it took forever but it was worth it in the long run. It has 2.5oz CS in the arms, 5oz CS in the chest, and 3.7oz in the hood and back and collar, and a very high ski jacket type collar. Super super warm and I used it as outer gear to hunt in all last year so I know its warm, you know sitting for hours. Good to a solid 25dF or so and I know my montbell down UL jacket would not even come close to that, but it is 9 oz vs 15 oz. The CS jacket is XL and cut very large and roomy and it weighs 15 oz. The hood weighs 2 oz.

I also have a M50 5oz apex Climashild quilt that I made that is good to 25-30dF, wide long that weighs 20 oz. Cost less than $100 to make.

I agree with above, take a compass.

I'm Joe
(imjoe)
compass on 08/04/2013 09:36:52 MDT Print View

I've navigated in dark and foggy many times. Having a dedicated compass vs a mini compass on a whistle will not improve that situation. Get me within 15 degrees of north and I promise if you needed to get to a road you'll have no problem. If it is sunny out no one needs a compass they just need to learn the skills to navigate without one.

Also I don't see a problem with using a ground sheet as a pack cover. With a little shock cord it will do the job fine.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 10:29:20 MDT Print View

I know you are dead set against a pack cover but another options for keeping your pack dry is a parcho. Pattern from Quest. Cuben version weighs about 4 oz or the sil nylon version about 7.5 oz. Sil version cost about $50 for the MYOG kit.

Here is a typical list of stuff you can dig through and pick and choose.
Typically my every day stuff weighs in at about 4-7 oz without a trowel.
Someone here makes titanium trowels that are super light. A trowel is nice, but some prefer a stick, but for me its tough to actually dig a decent cathole with a stick. I would rather carry an extra ounce.

Emer gear about 4oz or so and you should have an emer space blanket of some sort with you. 1.5 oz cheap and good insurance and versatile.

Medical minimum is about 2 oz or so.


UTILITY GEAR AND EVERYDAY STUFF
Comb
Toothbrush
Tooth Powder
Floss
TP
SOAP
Micro insect repellant
Chapstick
Microlight
Map
Good Compass
Micro sunscreen
Hand Sanitizer - a must have and enough to be useful
Wet Wipes - Maybe
Trowel
Bandana

KEYCHAIN SURVIVAL - I carry this stuff on my keychain everyday anyway
Fire steel
GI can opener
Small Swiss Army knife
Micro led light
Button Compass

SURVIVAL KIT
1 non lubricated condom - LOL
4 aquamira tablets
12' of spiderwire cord
Brunton button compass
2 fish hooks
1 needle
1 xacto blade
2 Suture strip bandaids
5 wp matches
1 mag glass
1 wet fire tinder
Micro pencil
2 pc WP paper
Gorilla tape - small amount
2 rubber bands
Safety pin
Space Blanket
Micro Lighter
Howler whistle
Signal mirror
Micro flashlight

The full size Swiss Army knife with scissors and saw is a must have for me.
Way back when I used to only cook on fires and I have used only that saw to do everything I needed to do.

MEDICAL
1 MICRO tube krazy glue
aspirin
advil
diphen
psudoped
Imodium
3 suture strip bandaid
2 regular bandaids
2x2 surgical sponge
4x4 pad
Neosporin to go
Tape
Moleskin
Bad knee take an Ace wrap.


Alternatively if you are more hard core you could just take some duct tape
and a small quick clot in case to have a really bad injury, cut etc.

That said in a case like that you have to clean out the wound. They do make a quickclot that has silver so that should help until you can get somewhere.

I have a friend that was on the last day of a sailing trip, sliced some salami and nicked his finger. He washed his hand off in the ocean and thought he was good to go. Next day he woke up with black streaks up his arm and checked into the hospital and was in the hospital for 3 days on an IV drip. Hand sanitizer and some sort of antibiotic is a good thing too.

Edited by tammons on 08/04/2013 10:32:00 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 10:46:20 MDT Print View

Troy, You take three compasses, and three microlights?

If you have soap and use it you don't need hand sanitizer. sanitizer sanitizes, but does not clean. Soap does both.


I do not take a survival kit with me backpacking. All that gear is redundant to what I have in my pack. We just stay close to each other.

Unless in Cholla country, I don't take a comb either. Good for pulling various cactus spines out of yourself.

Your friend rinsing off his wound in salt water was a bad choice. So unhealthily. Use soap. Rinse with copious amounts of clean, fresh water.. There is all kinds of crap in sea water. Can't drink it. Why wash with it? He's lucky.

Packcover. No thanks. I really like the big bag inside my pack technique. So much easier. Covers flappin' and snagging, blowing off, meh.

Joe, What about a SMD Lunar Duo?

Edited by kthompson on 08/04/2013 10:52:57 MDT.

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 11:23:56 MDT Print View

You might enjoy watching these videos by Mike Clelland and this article by him on the fastest way to lose weight and cheaply.

Edited by annapurna on 08/04/2013 11:28:18 MDT.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 11:32:06 MDT Print View

That is just 3 lists of misc gear (or four) and I dont take it all.
Especially 2-3 days that stuff is not really needed, just throwing it out there.

Right no need for 3 compasses but 2 is good for me.
A button compass weighs next to nothing anyway.

Just lists I had on my computer from about 5+ years back so I dont take all that stuff and some of it is redundant. The stuff on my keychain is always with me and I do have a micro misc emer med pack that fits into a small altoids container that weighs 1 oz I think. That always goes. It has all the tiny stuff in it and comes in handy.

I prefer to keep my pack dry, but to each his own. A cover wont blow off if you set it up right.

Hand sanitizer is a good thing IMO and soap works too, but soap does not sanitize and sanitizer does not clean like soap. Still to each his own and I am sure after the OP's first few hikes he will figure out what works.

Yes bad choice by my friend but it happens. This was probably 25 years ago. It was not the ocean salt water or what was in it, it was bacteria from the salami.

I'm Joe
(imjoe)
Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 12:17:36 MDT Print View

Wow. That is definitely not a 2-3 day list, at least not for me. I keep my hair short so no comb for me. I can pass on the floss for a short trip. If I'm bringing sun screen I'll leave the chapstick at home and just use the sunscreen instead. Leave the wet wipes at home and I can make do without a trowel. Your survival kit is way more that I'd ever bring. I might bring a few aquamira pills, an extra mini bic, and some gorilla tape. The rest I can do without. Your medical list is about what I'd have though. Nothing extravagant.

Ken, the Lunar Duo looks pretty comparable to the Double Rainbow but requires trekking poles/dedicated tent poles. I'll have to check it out a little more but I don't use trekking poles. Any reason you would choose it over the Double Rainbow?

Link, thanks for the links.

Edited by imjoe on 08/04/2013 12:22:08 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 12:22:22 MDT Print View

Better living space in the Duo for two.

Troy Ammons
(tammons) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Proposed Gear List for Ultralight Newbie on 08/04/2013 12:54:04 MDT Print View

Well yes that list was more of a thru hike list of stuff.

Floss is double duty for sewing repairs like your tent rain gear etc.
It weighs nothing.

All this stuff I have to have no matter what even a few days. In the past and mostly long ago, I have been/had totally wet, severe hypothermia, sick, diarrhea, totally wetted out down bag, tent nearly flooded, allergies on the trail, minor injuries, trapped in a nasty storm at 13k, etc etc, and all miserable - LOL and maybe thats why I carry what I do.

This is what every day stuff I take no matter what, but it does not have to weigh a lot.

UTILITY GEAR AND EVERYDAY STUFF
Toothbrush, Tooth Powder, Floss, TP, SOAP, Insect repellant (unless its cold)
Chapstick (Yeah can do without especially if you carry some vasoline cotton balls for fire starters)
Microlight, Map, Compass, Micro sunscreen, Hand Sanitizer, Wet Wipes (2-3 weigh nothing and are handy, not talking a huge amount and your GF will love your for taking them), Trowel (the small titanium trowel weighs 0.4 oz and is not that expensive) Bandana or microfiber cloth.

With a tent I would rather take a decently think microfiber cloth like from the swap shop, $2 or so to wipe down condensation on the tent interior. Before the microfiber days I used to carry a sponge.

KEYCHAIN SURVIVAL - That lives in my pocket
Fire steel, GI can opener, Small Swiss Army knife (can leave out if packing a real knife), Micro led light, Button Compass.

For the small altoids can survival stuff I will post a photo.
Generally I just add a space blanket and a lighter to that and thats mostly good enough.
Its already together so if its got an extra compass in it or whatever I dont bother stripping this and that out.

Edited by tammons on 08/04/2013 13:34:17 MDT.