Shelter Help - death of an old companion
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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: RE: Eric on 07/09/2013 08:19:54 MDT Print View

"A pole in the center? No floor? Unusable (for sleeping at least) inner 1 ft. perimeter, an entrance that lets in rain or snow when opened?"

If there one person on each side of pole it doesn't matter, or gear on one side, person on other. From an engineering standpoint, one pole vertical is stronger for the weight than multiple poles or a curved pole. And you get headroom for sitting erect when it's raining.

I sleep without tent about half time, so I need waterproof sleeping bag bottom anyway, tent doesn't need to have waterproof floor. And if I have dripping wet clothing or condensation on inside, better to not have floor for drips to soak in. If you have insect infestation, maybe a floor is good.

Yeah, 1 foot perimiter is unusable, so floor size has to be that much wider. If the edges are raised a few inches for ventilation, this 1 foot allows rain splash to soak in.

The 1 foot perimeter is worse when there's snow on the tent, although you can tap the snow off from the inside, but that's a nuisance.

Don't put stuff directly under door. When you open door on floored tent, rain blows in and gets floor wet.

Mids aren't perfect but good under most conditions at least I experience. Don't work so good for some people, like a couple that wants to sleep next to each other.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: RE: Eric on 07/09/2013 09:03:35 MDT Print View

"From an engineering standpoint, one pole vertical is stronger for the weight than multiple poles or a curved pole."

This is interesting. One pole will take on all of the stress in a Mid. Adding two poles and the stress now is shared between two poles. Add 4 poles and now each pole only has to contend with 25% of the total load. ETC.

It would seem to me that multiple vertical poles would be stronger - i.e. Notch , SS1 and 2, Golite SL2, etc. However, I am not an engineer.

Sara Marchetti
(smarchet) - MLife
Re: Shelter Help - death of an old companion on 07/09/2013 09:24:35 MDT Print View

We have had the TT Rainshadow II for about a year and have been very impressed with the room to weight ratio. It feels like a palace inside! We use a 3 person tent because we have a dog and there is plenty of room for all of us. There is plenty of headroom, but if you are really tall you may find the dip due to the catenary roof to be problematic. I found that by using a taller pole(s) at the entrance, I can minimize this problem.

With the bathtub floor there is no worry about getting wet. Like all Tarp Tents, the floor is so durable that you don't need a ground sheet.

If you pitch it into the wind properly there is very good air flow that reduces condensation. Total setup time is about 3-5 minutes.

PROS:

Huge!
Great size to weight ratio.
Durable
Bathtub floor keeps the rain out
Great airflow to reduce condensation

CONS: (I'm being REALLY picky here)

Not free standing (no biggie) but poles do take up a little space.
The front beak is a little pesky. Its kind of a pain to get in/out of the tent. If you are used to side entrances you might find this a turn off.
Requires a fairly lengthy trekking pole (or extension) to keep the roof high enough to sit up in comfortably (at least a longer pole than I usually carry).
Like all silnyon the floor is slippery and can cause slippage on some sleeping pads.
Not factory seam sealed.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Eric on 07/09/2013 09:56:24 MDT Print View

If you take a pole and make it twice the diameter, it will be twice as heavy but 4 times stronger. So if you had 2 poles, each one would have to support half the weight, so they could be square root of 2 smaller, but together they would weigh 2 / square root of 2 more = square root of 2 = 1.414 heavier than just one pole

Or maybe it's squared and cubed or something, too lazy to think about it any more than the fact that one pole is stronger for the wieght than 2 poles, etc...

Matt Dirksen
(NamelessWay) - MLife

Locale: Mid Atlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Eric on 07/09/2013 13:24:49 MDT Print View

"From an engineering standpoint, one pole vertical is stronger for the weight than multiple poles or a curved pole"

Jerry, I am trying to understand what you mean by: “stronger”. Sure, the pole in a single pole tent configuration has high strength to weight ratio – in relation to itself, but only if you are discussing force in a single direction: downward compression.

In reality, the walls of the pyramid fabric, plus the stakes & guylines are all required to keep that one pole from falling over. As most of us experience, lateral forces (aka: wind) plays a much more substantial role toward the “strength” of a tent, then does compressive force (aka: snow.) I’ve witnessed pyramid’s get blown apart in a windstorm where geodesic’s stand by and not budge an inch. Now I do admit that I have no idea how much heavier the geodomes were, but I know where I was happy to be sitting in one during the storm.

I could be wrong, but it has been my understanding for years that (generally speaking) tents with the highest “strength-to-weight ratios” are either hooped or geodesic, because of their ability to properly distribute forces, regardless of which direction the forces originate. I guess the problems is that one can’t really compare freestanding to non-freestanding tent design on the same level since the term “strength” is somewhat relative.

Hmm, I now guess a tent utilizing zero poles in it's config has the best strength-to-weight ratio... :)

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Shelter Help - death of an old companion on 07/09/2013 15:08:18 MDT Print View

"From an engineering standpoint, one pole vertical is stronger for the weight than multiple poles or a curved pole"

Except when that pole is a trekking pole near max extension.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: RE: Eric on 07/09/2013 15:57:11 MDT Print View

If you had one pole, fixed both ends, and pulled on the center, it would flex less than two poles with half the diameter. Material further away from the center will result in more strength. A tube is stronger than a rod, for the weight. etc.

I'm no mechanical engineer so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And if you have a pole in a curve, you're using up some of it's strength before it will fail. I forget where I read that, maybe a Jardine book?

A geodesic dome tent has a bunch of poles which must weigh a lot more than the pole of a mid.

Of course, comparing a geodesic tent to a hoop tent to a mid gets complicated. You have to add up weight of everything.

And then you have to factor in wind speed. Roger, in some article, had a table of wind speed vs height from ground. Mid sticks up higher so subjected to higher wind speed, but the peak has small cross sectional area so only a little of the area is that higher speed, progressively more area as you're lower to ground. With dome or hoop tent, more cross sectional area is at a middle height.

Actually, it's a pretty complicated engineering calculation. I wonder if anyone has done this?

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Shelter Help - death of an old companion on 07/09/2013 16:20:11 MDT Print View

No wonder we have not seen Jason back into this thread...
He wants a family shelter for family outings, yet too many here are busy discussing what they like rather then what the OP has asked for.

Anyway how do these shelters behave at camp 4 up on Mt Everest ?
(just in case Jason suddenly feels like doing that...)

Is there a 3 person hammock that is also dog friendly ?

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Shelter Help - death of an old companion on 07/09/2013 16:46:10 MDT Print View

An internet forum thread with topic drift. Alert the press:).

Golite have a couple of 3 person tents now and there is also the Anjan 3 person version.

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpacking-Tent-Reviews/Hilleberg-Anjan-2

Jason Teckam
(jasont) - F

Locale: Upper Midwest
Re: Shelter Help - death of an old companion on 07/14/2013 12:06:17 MDT Print View

In fact, if you know of a three person hammock that is dog friendly I'm all ears! Especially one that can be used on Everest.

First off, thanks to all of you who have put forward some really great things to think about. Several of the three person tents there were mentioned are ones that I have considered. It's always tough when you're weighing (no pun intended) weight vs. cost vs. durability. This is, in my mind especially true when you're looking at gear for family camping.

Secondly, I love how some posts can get totally sidetracked on other, usually fascinating topics.

Finally, still haven't made a decision. I'm thinking of saving some more pennies and going after one of the Big Agnes offerings. Their tents seem to be wicked light and meet the space requirements. Dare I ask, any thoughts about their shelters???

Thanks again,
Jason

Ps - the reason for my time away was a full week and a half of business travel. Sometimes life just seems to get in the way...