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Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Testing on 06/24/2013 16:44:26 MDT Print View

I'm inclined to agree with Roger. I don't think the water repellent properties of the coating will withstand soiling or abrasion, but as long as Jason has some, and is asking for testing suggestions...

I think it would be interesting to spray a windshirt or a piece of breathable nylon. I'd like to know if it improves the water resistance to such a degree that a windshirt could be used as a rain shell, or a treated sleeping bag/quilt could be used without a bivy under a small tarp. I'd also like to know how much the treatment reduces breathability. And it would be interesting to assess these parameters after soiling and one or more washings in a washing machine.

I think breathable, tighly woven nylon would be the substrate that most BPLers would use this product on. A few might want to use it on fleece, I guess.

It won't be useful to most of us if Jason's tests show that the coating rapidly becomes useless after abrasion or soiling, but it might still have a few narrow applications. For an ultramarathon, for example, it might be handy to have a windshirt that temporarily performs as a very breathable rain shell (until the coating is degraded).

Edited by ckrusor on 06/24/2013 16:58:12 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: NOT for fabric on 06/24/2013 17:09:21 MDT Print View

but, but Roger is says fabric right on the label!

I wouldn't test it on anything I wasn't willing to throw away.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
I guess we will see... on 06/24/2013 17:14:49 MDT Print View

They list fabric as an acceptable application and demonstrate it. Whether it will be durable enough to be a good DWR is still in question. A few of us (I'm waiting for my order to arrive) are going to test just that. I am going to coat a scrap piece of nylon and see how it holds up. I will "stuff" into something to simulate packing a piece of gear away many times and then test how well it still repels water.

It may or may not hold up. Since I bought it for use on a hard surface I'm not loosing much if it doesn't work on the nylon, but there is certainly something to gain. :)

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: I guess we will see... on 06/24/2013 17:42:35 MDT Print View

Well, my take is that this must be different from the origonal. This is because it is a two part spray, and, it has some disoloration when applied to fabrics. The original version was a single spray, capable of being used inside cell phones and did not cause dramatic color changes.

At any rate, it would be nice for Larry to do the testing. For me, I will wait for the origonal. It was never clear about durability, and, I am sure rain drops would cause sufficient force to penetrate the coating, I an not sure about the two coats. They are saying that it will remove breathability...usually associated with thicker coatings on nylon.

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: I guess we will see... on 06/24/2013 17:58:41 MDT Print View

I am in agreement with Roger. All it does is prevent water from sticking to the the fabric. Also note that when Roger said High pressure water that also has to include a good rain storm. A larg rain drop falling at terminal velocity could hit the fabric with enough force to generate the pressure needed to push the water right through the fabric.

A test that should be done is to take an untreated fabric and an identical treated fabric and measure the hydrostatic head of both samples. My guess is that never wet will not have a big impact on the hydrostatic head. If hydrostatic head remains unchanged Never wet treated fabric cannot replace a good rain jacket.

Some time ago I remember reading where people sent samples of fabric to a person and he measured the Hydrostatic head and posted the results. I don't know who it was.

Rocco Speranza
(Mechrock)

Locale: Western NC Mtns
add weight? on 06/26/2013 08:56:03 MDT Print View

Does anyone know how much weight this would add to your gear?

Assuming it's wear resistance. I'd like to spray the bottom of my tent with a coating. Could be nice not to have to role up a wet tent. Even if it doesn't rain the bottom always seems to be wet from condensation...

Tony Wong
(Valshar) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
How did the testing go???? on 07/09/2013 13:02:11 MDT Print View

Jason,

Did you get a chance to test the Never Wet?

If so, please let us know how it went!

-Tony

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Testing results - preliminary on 07/09/2013 13:27:46 MDT Print View

I treated my boonie hat, both inside and out. It added about 6 grams to the hate. The coverage was about 2 square feet, so I would say about 3 grams per square foot.

The product performed as advertised. I dunked the hate in the pool and it came out dry, except for the areas I missed. Coating the inside of a hat is a challenge, and I was in a hurry.

One odd thing I noticed, is that it give the material an odd texture. It is rough and almost sticky.

I am currently stuffing in day packs and will try it "a bunch" of times to see how durable it is.

Be sure to apply it outside. The primer has an extreme "nail polish" smell (I assume the solvent is acetone). Just taking the coated outside hat inside to cure stunk up the whole house!

I wonder what effect this product would have on condensation? I'm going to test that next. :)

Angus A.
(mangus7175) - F

Locale: http://theshadedtrail.blogspot.com
Re: Testing results - preliminary on 07/09/2013 14:38:39 MDT Print View

Thanks for the update. Really looking forward to reading more about your results.

Question: Aside from the texture, have you seen any effect on the flexibility of the fabric once the coat is applied? For example, the stuff sacks you've treated, do they feel more stiff or are they as flexible prior to treatment?

Thinking of purchasing this product and applying it to regular 1.1 ripstop to see how it works repelling water.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Only the boonie hat so far... on 07/09/2013 15:18:28 MDT Print View

I haven't applied it to nylon, yet. That's next.

The hat was stiffer after the application.

There was NO wetting out after contact. Although, it is hard to rub the fabric when it is wet as it is "Never Wet"! ;) Handling it with wet hands did not force any water through. Wearing the hat and swimming under water forced some water into the area between two layers of fabric. The fabric did seem to get a little damp from the water trapped in between the payers of fabric. However, that is not the type of application this product is intended for. The single layers of fabric never got wet.

So far, so good. However, like I said, it's all preliminary.

I'm also going to try a hydrostatic head test on the nylon. Can anyone point me to instructions on doing that? I think I understand the idea, but following a set procedure would make for a better test.

Tony Wong
(Valshar) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Only the boonie hat so far... on 07/12/2013 16:28:22 MDT Print View

Larry,

Can you tell us if you notice a reduction in waterproofness as a result of the oils from your hands/head degrading the coating?

I believe that the instructions states that oil/petroleum products will effect the performance of the coating.

If body oils degrades the performance, then it might decrease the value of treating clothing/items that are touched by human hands all of the time.

Again, thanks for posting up your observations and sharing with the rest of us.

-Tony

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
None so far... on 07/12/2013 16:39:11 MDT Print View

But, I haven't done much. I have the hat stuffed for the last week in a book bag. Used the hat on a kayak trip and then stuffed it back in the book bag. I'll take it back out this weekend and see how it's doing.

The most intriguing idea to me is the effect it may have on condensation. I'm going to test that along with it's DWR properties on nylon soon. I'm hoping that condensation will run off the underside of an angled surface. This could have a huge impact on single walled tents. That is if it doesn't cause the condensation to drop off instead!
Or, maybe it won't condensate at all. Very intriguing...

Edited by Hitech on 07/12/2013 16:39:47 MDT.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Nylon application test on 07/15/2013 12:27:49 MDT Print View

I treated a 1 foot square of nylon. Prior to treating it weighed 4 grams and 5 grams after treating both sides. Apparently the material makes a difference. Makes sense, the nylon would "soak up" less of the liquid than the cotton hat.

It does make the material much stiffer. I just did a quick crumple and water test. It completely repelled water.

Tonight I hope to try a condensation test. Can anyone point me how to build a hydro-static head test device.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
condensation test... on 07/16/2013 15:23:38 MDT Print View

Well, the test failed. I had a hard time getting any condensation to form on either the treated or untreated fabric. I finally got some by wrapping the fabric around a glass of ice, salt and water. The droplets were smaller on the treated fabric. They also required more contact to release from the treated fabric. The droplets had an odd frosted color as if they were coated with the never-wet compound. I left some on the fabric after I removed it from the glass and many of the smaller ones were still there in the morning.

I first used steam and lots of to attempt to produce condensation. The fabric got hot. I tried putting an ice pack on the back of the fabric to promote condensation. The side with ice pack now has numerous failures of the coating and the hot only side had two pencil led sized failures.

It appears that extreme temperatures may lead to the coating becoming fragile and more susceptible to abrasion. I will continue normal testing and see how it holds up.

I'll post a few pictures later.

Tony Wong
(Valshar) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: condensation test... on 07/16/2013 23:08:49 MDT Print View

Larry,

Thanks for the last few updates.

Appreciate the effort that you are putting into testing and getting back to us.

Interesting observation you made about extreme heat possible degrading the performance of the coating.

Looking forward to hearing more results of your testing.

-Tony

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
not meant for fabrics on 07/17/2013 04:05:53 MDT Print View

I was reading up on it some more and I guess neverwet wasn't really meant for fabrics that you wear (even though they show it as a demo). The produce leaves a haze so it'll show up on any non white surface.

Also, when first exposing a treated item to water, the excess top coat will wash away, explaining the milky drops you saw during your tests.

It'd be nice to see a clothing version developed. Our more fabrics like Schoeller nanosphere, where the fabric is nanocoated/infused with silicon nanoparticles, and is supposed to be a much more durable, abrasion/dirt/oil resistant water repelling treatment from what I understand. But not much is made with it any more... Or at all?

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Pictures on 07/17/2013 11:21:48 MDT Print View

Here are the white droplets:
 photo NeverWetDrops_zps6262a318.jpg

Here is the condensation:

 photo NeverWetCondensation_zps50127647.jpg

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Pictures on 07/18/2013 18:08:36 MDT Print View

Take a look at reviews for this product.
They say it does not hold up to UV damage at all.
It will start flaking and and coming off on day 1.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
UV Damage on 07/18/2013 18:38:38 MDT Print View

I will have to test that. I'm putting the test sample outside now...

Thomas Rayl
(trayl) - MLife

Locale: SE Tx
NeverWet: Think of the Possibilities! on 08/12/2013 15:14:10 MDT Print View

I agree more testing is needed, but that will come.

In the meantime, Gee Whillikers!! Think of the possibilities...

Spray the bottom of your canoe/kayak/packraft and just float over the surface of the water!
Spray the SOLES of your shoes/boots and cross over the top of rivers & streams!
Spray your bugnet for great ventilation, views, bugproofing yet no rain in a storm!
Spray your underarms and never have to worry about those embarrassing perspiration stains!
Spray your tinder/kindling and it's always ready for a quick light!
Spray your glasses & they'll never fog up again!
Spray your underwear & never worry about those "embarrassing senior moments"!
Spray your head and you'll always have a dry sense of humor!!!

Hope to see more info soon!