Forum Index » Chaff » what to do when encountering guns on the trail


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Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Trolls on 07/08/2013 18:59:07 MDT Print View

"Seems like you can't be pro gun and not bring politics into every freaking discussion."

Both sides are guilty.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 19:01:50 MDT Print View

@Desert Dweller
I am sorry this happened to you.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 19:15:46 MDT Print View

Yes, I'd like to second that sentiment. I think that was terrible, and to be honest I think I would feel exactly the way you do if something a fraction that bad had happened to me. I think it is reasonable for you to carry, especially if it allows you to get out there with less trepidation.

At this point I don't think I would have any problem with anyone carrying on the trail, especially not you.

I think it is in most cases unnecessary, and an argument can be made that, given the low probability of actually needing a gun, that with increasing numbers at some point the probability of a drunk, angry or otherwise messed up camper injuring me or someone else with a gun, instead of just screaming at me or something, becomes large enough to outweigh the possible need. Hence the argument for no guns in crowded areas like National Parks, movie theaters, or the inner city for that matter.

Anyway, in the view of the vast majority it is a balance thing, not black and white. But the fringe on both side always makes it about the people on the other side, and it isn't about debating the balance point for them. That point of view is boring and guaranteed fruitless - but more importantly dilutes the all important entertaining satirical and ironic posts. ;-)

Edited by millonas on 07/08/2013 19:27:53 MDT.

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 19:43:52 MDT Print View

@ Dessert Dweller, thank you for your input, I'm impressed with your courage to tell your story.

And welcome to the site :-)

Everybody can understand why you carry a gun.

But please don't compare a gun to a hammer.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 20:52:43 MDT Print View

Desert Dweller,

It's always sad to read stories like yours but thanks for having the courage to share it.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla) - M

Locale: Wild Wild West
guns etc., on 07/08/2013 21:13:45 MDT Print View

Thank you, I appreciate your understanding. I'm lucky, I survived and that scum that attacked me died of a massive heart attack a year later. Turned out he had done the same thing to six other women in the area, but was a friend of the local judge who would not prosecute him, even after I made a statement. The other girls/women were too terrified to make statements. Small mountain town politics....:-P
In my opinion a gun is very much like a hammer or any other tool, just as capable in the hands of humans of building beautiful things, and destroying them. Otherwise they both are just a paperweight. I am a hunter and feed my family with what I hunt. My children were fed well because of this tool I choose to use. It was not so long ago that all our ancestors used tools like that to feed families on a regular basis.

I detest politics, but know everyone is entitled to his own stance. In my youth, politics was not something one brought up like folks do now. It dirties the air, provokes antagonism and brings a lowering of energy I just don't like, JMHO.

I like to believe that when our country was being founded that the organizers were excited and happy with their chosen places in history and that political debates and discussions were both energizing and uplifting to those around them. It's just not that way now.

There is way too much fun to be had doing and talking about other more uplifting and growth promoting subjects like being outdoors and enjoying the company of like minded people. :-)
I never let what happened to me stop me from doing what I love, and that is being outdoors.

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: guns etc., on 07/09/2013 00:10:14 MDT Print View

DD, don't get me wrong, i understand where you're coming from (as much as it's possible), but i just think it's two very different things, when using a gun/rifle for hunting, and carrying a concealed weapon for protection against human scumbags. It should be two different discussions, well IMO anyway. - But i think it's probably too late to make that digression in this thread ;-).

IMO, discussing politics is vital, but it needs to be done right! I agree, that way, way too often, it provokes antagonism, but that's just an excuse to give up the GOOD discussions.

Ignorance is not the way, and the Wild West neither (but i understand the need to act accordingly to the current situation).

DD wrote:

"Turned out he had done the same thing to six other women in the area, but was a friend of the local judge who would not prosecute him, even after I made a statement. The other girls/women were too terrified to make statements. Small mountain town politics....:-P"

That's just awful...

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 08:21:33 MDT Print View

" Both sides are guilty of that. But they always start it ;)"

You may have a more general point there, but in this thread it certainly was clearly started by one person. 14 straight humorous posts, followed suddenly with a more or less off topic (even leaving aside the humorous part) containing a long fairly nasty political screed, followed by 7 or so humorous polite posts including 1 reply to the "usual suspect" to the effect that hey, the OP was just a humorous one, and two ones very mildly mocking the tone of the "usual suspect's" post - all pretty tame. Then bang - "usual suspect" is posting billboard size signs of Stalin and Hitler. Yeah, the very definition of a troll.

I have always found that for people who do this, a lot, there is no trigger threshold for escalation - just acknowledging the posts is usually enough for the trolls to escalate. For these people their "message" is really just their medium and their medium/tone is there actual message. So the best thing is to just ignore them, hard as that may be.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 09:50:19 MDT Print View

" So the best thing is to just ignore them, hard as that may be."

Yeah, but you just got this going again right after it had taken a smoother direction.

In general I think the frustration and excesses come as a reaction to being silenced, or "shushed". And the consensus anymore seems to be that if you are right ( and you are so sure that you are..) , then it's ok to try and silence and bully the opposing view.
I see it daily, even at Universities and places that used be open to the exchange of ideas. It seems like now we have "it" figured out, be it gender, race, sexuality, economics etc, and so we don't need ( or allow) any further discussion. To me that comes at a cost.
The door should never be shut.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 11:14:21 MDT Print View

And......

The sillynes.....


It continues

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Hammers on trails on 07/09/2013 11:41:26 MDT Print View

"But please don't compare a gun to a hammer."


---

"According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.... [For instance, i]n 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605...."

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/03/FBI-More-People-Killed-With-Hammers-and-Clubs-Each-Year-Than-With-Rifles


Yes I realize this is breitbart, so take with a grain of Himalayan salt.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 12:34:00 MDT Print View

Ken:
"And......

The sillynes.....


It continues
"


I don't understand this. I think the last couple of pages, ( trying to remember without going back) have been meaningful posts.
I don't see anything silly about a controversial subject that gets people emotional. At least some of the posters are attempting to have a civil conversation, which is not easy amongst innuendos and put downs.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Hammers on trails on 07/09/2013 18:04:30 MDT Print View

Frankly, I'm not sure why we keep talking about guns and dogs...lets be honest: what we really need to worry about are falling vending machines.

http://www.oddee.com/item_98002.aspx

Sean Heenan
(roadster1) - M

Locale: Southeast mountains
Re: Re: Hammers on trails on 07/09/2013 18:23:12 MDT Print View

Guns, dogs, hammers, drunks, vending machines, and of course driving to the trailhead, what ever happened to lions and tigers and bears, oh my!!! Must be a vast right wing conspiracy or those damn nanny state socialists!!!

Peter (Taking a break)
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Discussion ethics on 07/09/2013 18:23:22 MDT Print View

When general I think the frustration and excesses comes as a reaction to being silenced, or "shushed.". And the consensus anymore seems to be that if you are right ( and you are so sure that you are..) , then it's ok to try and silence and bully the opposing view.
I see it daily, even at Universities and places that used be open to the exchange of ideas. It seems like now we have "it" figured out, be it gender, race, sexuality, economics etc, and so we don't need ( or allow) any further discussion. To me that comes at a cost.
The door should never be shut."

+1

Hard to live up to, but rewarding when you've managed to. To be had with camels on the side.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Discussion ethics on 07/09/2013 18:30:13 MDT Print View

"Hard to live up to, but rewarding when you've managed to. To be had with camels on the side."

Yes. But it is something to shoot for.
There is an accidental pun there.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Discussion ethics on 07/10/2013 17:36:37 MDT Print View

Kat, I have my beliefs and you have yours. Not a problem.


My beliefs are what I think is right...not that your beliefs are wrong. Sorry I bummed you out, but my hatred towards the GOP, Teaparty etc. are not unfounded and based mainly on facts that the party is being overrun by delusional, paranoid lunatics that are out of touch with this country.

I asked Matthew to post information and he did not. Just juvenile memme's. AND please do not demonize me as the "sole" antagonist...EVERYONE on this site, one time or another has been a bit heated in a discussion.....no?????

Glass houses with rocks can be problems

Edited by kennyhel77 on 07/10/2013 17:37:36 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Discussion ethics on 07/10/2013 17:40:20 MDT Print View

and here is one to stoke the fires!lunatic

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 07/10/2013 18:24:27 MDT Print View

Edited:

While I am leaving my first reply below, unedited, I guess I am just disappointed that the people that are able to discuss this in a respectful way ( and I have learned a lot from a number of them, on all sides of the more difficult issues) tend to just leave once it gets this ugly and I think we all lose when that happens. So yes, I am upset when some foul the water enough that the real conversation is lost.








Ken, I don't think you even know where I stand on most issues, since i do not follow either party line, but maybe you are not interested in finding common ground?
You stoke the fire and have the right to do so but in my opinion the way you have expressed yourself here, and your attitude towards about half of your fellow citizens....are part of the problem that this country is currently having.
There are people on BPL and elsewhere that share some/ most of your beliefs and they try to have a respectful and civil conversation; I think you are hurting your own cause.

I think I am done here; no promises though.

Edited by Kat_P on 07/10/2013 18:42:57 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:03:41 MDT Print View

Fair enough and I agree with some of what you wrote....however, MY rights and beliefs are the ones that are being trampled.

As a woman, you should be consider your right to chose.
As a person that supports "free Thoughts" ie legalization of drugs, who can marry who...tc. then maybe YOU need to reevaluate your stance. It is not the GOP that wants to step into the 21st Century but the Dems.

Bring it on Conservatives....let's go toe to toe. YOUR beliefs are outdated.

And no Kat, I don't believe that you have the same beliefs. I do know you (somewhat) and YOU are a wonderful person that I admire. I just have my beliefs, and they are NOT crazy like Teabillies

Edited by kennyhel77 on 07/10/2013 19:06:05 MDT.