Forum Index » Chaff » what to do when encountering guns on the trail


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Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/18/2013 22:13:40 MDT Print View

Ok, maybe you don't like guns. Why do I have to give up MY hiking experience to save you the 90 seconds out of your whole hike you see my gun because you don't like guns in the wilderness?

Yes, I agree that I have a big responsibility and it's one I take very seriously. Am I perfect? Of course not. But I just can't get over the nastiness some people have over guns on the trail.

It's a puncturing tool. Like teeth of a wolf or cheetah, the proboscis of the mosquito, or the talon of the falcon....how is an unpleasant experience with a gun any different from that? Because I brought it there ?

I don't like mountain bikes, but hey, on trails where they are allowed? oh well. Horses? Same thing. How about large groups? Or as Tipi said, the sound of helicopters, or nearby roads, or motor boats, or planes..........I guess I don't understand how the purity of YOUR wilderness experience trumps mine.....

Ok. I'm done.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/18/2013 22:49:01 MDT Print View

I typically mount the offending gun owner to establish alpha dominance.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 00:12:47 MDT Print View

I went hiking last year near Cache Creek. I brought along my rifle to do some hunting. That area is usually pretty deserted and anyone else there is a hunter. It's normal to not see another person for days.

Well, apparently someone wrote up in a Sacramento newspaper that there were a bunch of bald eagles there. And a ranger was doing guided tours.
I showed up near the trailhead with a rifle over my shoulder and had to walk by a bunch of small children on a field trip and soccer moms. It was awkward.

There are no cops on the trail to protect you. Wanting to carry a firearm is completely reasonable. Everyone complains about America's love affair with guns but I'm more concerned about the irrational fear of weapons. You can't even bring a squirt gun to school now without causing a lockdown. There was a time when you could carry a pocket knife to school and leave your shotgun in your truck and the world wasn't filled with pussy liberal protectionists.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 00:26:53 MDT Print View

Justin,

With Craig on the trail, you might be better off with chastity shorts than a gun.... especially if you have a purdy mouth.

There's also the chance that the OP may have been tongue in cheek but let’s not let that stop a 3000 response gun thread.

And go!

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 06:22:00 MDT Print View

I urinate on it. Then it is my territory. Craig and I will have to see who can pee higher like my two dogs.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 10:03:03 MDT Print View

Just hike on and ignore them, unless they are deliberately pointed at you.

If that is the case, stand still, raise your hands, and pay very close attention to whatever the person on the other end of the weapon is saying.


ll

Edited by wandering_bob on 06/19/2013 17:41:34 MDT.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 13:20:02 MDT Print View

Well...easy. A CPL and a SafePacker. Not hard at all ;-)

Mark Ries
(mtmnmark) - M

Locale: IOWAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 14:29:30 MDT Print View

I wonder if a person who is scared of guns (and maybe for good reason) sees someone coming down the trail aiming a dog at them... nevermind

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 14:55:47 MDT Print View

"I typically mount the offending gun owner to establish alpha dominance."

Darn you anyway, Craig. I just blew tea all over my wife's brand new keyboard and now there's gonna be hell to pay for sure. ;0)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 14:59:09 MDT Print View

"Ok, maybe you don't like guns. Why do I have to give up MY hiking experience to save you the 90 seconds out of your whole hike you see my gun because you don't like guns in the wilderness?"

They're rollin' out the guns again, a-roo, a-roo......

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 15:21:24 MDT Print View

Craig:
"I typically mount the offending gun owner to establish alpha dominance."

Too perfect. Had me laugh- out- loud; students looking at me like I am a nut. Well worth it.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 17:39:57 MDT Print View

Be Prepared.

sign

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 21:37:32 MDT Print View

"Ok, maybe you don't like guns. Why do I have to give up MY hiking experience to save you the 90 seconds out of your whole hike you see my gun because you don't like guns in the wilderness?

Yes, I agree that I have a big responsibility and it's one I take very seriously. Am I perfect? Of course not. But I just can't get over the nastiness some people have over guns on the trail.

It's a puncturing tool. Like teeth of a wolf or cheetah, the proboscis of the mosquito, or the talon of the falcon....how is an unpleasant experience with a gun any different from that? Because I brought it there ?

I don't like mountain bikes, but hey, on trails where they are allowed? oh well. Horses? Same thing. How about large groups? Or as Tipi said, the sound of helicopters, or nearby roads, or motor boats, or planes..........I guess I don't understand how the purity of YOUR wilderness experience trumps mine....."



Ah...imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/19/2013 21:48:48 MDT Print View

"Ah...imitation is the greatest form of flattery."

It gets worse, he's moving to Austin too......

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
It's not about hunting..........what part of "Shall not be infringed" do people not get? on 06/27/2013 00:19:55 MDT Print View

As an UL hiker AND gun owner, I know I am more concerned about people than animals on the trail. I occasionally carry (the lightest 9mm I could afford), and don't really care what people might think. It's my right...it's YOUR right...it's called the Second Amendment and it's not about hunting rights, it's about DEFENSE (personal protection of you and your family and property, and against a tyrannical government or anyone else that would take those away from you). It goes like this:

2nd


And my hiking gun (Ruger LC9 9MM):

ruger

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/27/2013 00:21:37 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: It's not about hunting..........what part of "Shall not be infringed" do people not get? on 06/27/2013 05:29:42 MDT Print View

What exactly concerns you about people on the trail?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 06:17:52 MDT Print View

Relax Matthew, don't go off half cocked. It's a satire thread.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 07:24:45 MDT Print View

Since this is chaff...and almost as fun a dog on the trail thread:

Matthew, what part of "a well-regulated militia" don't you understand? Well-regulated. That means, well, rules. Not a free-for-all.

I'm fine with people carrying guns in responsible ways, in responsible places. I do think people watch too much tv and think they are going to be like Rambo when a crazy person shows up. I mean, how much do police officers and military folks train? Constantly or their skills go south. So some yokel who thinks that because they shoot at a targets a few times a year is going to be poised, in control, aiming well, shooting only the intended target when faced with an adrenaline filled scary situation (charging bear? Drug crazed crazy person?) when the attacker has the benefit of surprise...it kind of makes me shake my head. Lay off the testosterone people.

But if it makes you happy? Go for it. Just be realistic about how safe that gun really makes you. And don't point it at me.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 07:26:04 MDT Print View

And really. Hikers are generally a pretty cool and laid back group of people. Who do you plan on shooting?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 09:51:34 MDT Print View

Tyrannical Government.....Lord. ....you're one of those. Yep the big bad Obama army is coming to get ya

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 09:54:29 MDT Print View

And.....I too own a handgun. I live in a rural place, so it's for protection.....not against tyranny.

Ohhhh and get a better understanding of your precious second ammendment

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 19:14:09 MDT Print View

I'm not sure whether or not this is a death rattle but it's nice to see Chaff hanging in there.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/27/2013 20:28:03 MDT Print View

"I'm not sure whether or not this is a death rattle but it's nice to see Chaff hanging in there."

I don't know dude, it seems like chaff has run out of ammunition. People just going off half-cocked. Seems pretty shot to me....

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re:Chaff reloaded on 06/27/2013 20:35:32 MDT Print View

Bang!

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/28/2013 16:23:17 MDT Print View

"Tyrannical Government.....Lord. ....you're one of those. Yep the big bad Obama army is coming to get ya"

You must not be a student of history. I'm sure many Germans thought the same way you did in the 1930's.

1

2

n

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/28/2013 16:24:58 MDT.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/28/2013 16:30:27 MDT Print View

I am afraid of unleashed dogs on the trail but not leashed ones.

I think my view of guns is similar. Seeing a person with a hand gun in a holster doesn't bother me. If the person was holding the gun in their hand (unleashed) then it would worry me.

When the owner of an unleashed dog tells me it won't bite me it is no more reassuring than the person with the gun in his/her hand telling me he won't shoot me.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: guns and morons. on 06/28/2013 16:55:20 MDT Print View

How to identify nut jobs from a distance is the skill that more should learn. I see one from way over here.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: guns and morons. on 06/28/2013 17:29:49 MDT Print View

We're only on page two folks. Waaaaay off the pace. We're not ever going to turn this into a 3000 response strong display of internet hara-kari unless everyone is willing to do their part and pitch in.

I blame cable news for this.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/28/2013 17:39:04 MDT Print View

The 2nd amendment is so important to me, I've been known to wear a T-shirt without a jacket IN THE WINTER just to exercise my right. Not sure what all the hullaballoo is about here.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Guns, Hitler, Obama, Socialists...yeah chaff!! on 06/28/2013 21:22:04 MDT Print View

I can see a nutter too.

As an ACTUAL socialist, I am always amazed at the ignorance on display when people throw the word around, or compare Obama to Hitler, or whatever Fox News has in it's bonnet that day. 6 years on, I am STILL waiting for a single piece of evidence that Obama is a socialist...........

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/28/2013 23:36:26 MDT Print View

Jennifer,
I never said Socialist...I said TYRANT. You know , as in TYRANNY?

ty·rant
/ˈtīrənt/
Noun

A cruel and oppressive ruler.
A person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.

Synonyms
despot - oppressor

I'd say he fits the definition perfectly, as did his predecessor, Bush. It makes little difference, Left boot or Right boot, it's still a boot on your neck!

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
hope and change on 06/29/2013 06:18:50 MDT Print View

I'd like to see the candidate, any candidate, who got elected on a platform of despair and stagnation.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/29/2013 07:13:54 MDT Print View

I just try to concentrate on the person and ignore the gun. Here is a perfect example on which to practice.

hu

That wasn't so hard, was it?

I suppose one could also try Craig's method of establishing dominance, but I doubt it would have the desired outcome when there's more than one armed hiker. Maybe he can elaborate on technique. Over to you, Craig. :D

Edited by wandering_bob on 06/29/2013 07:18:59 MDT.

Mark Ries
(mtmnmark) - M

Locale: IOWAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 07:36:10 MDT Print View

I think that picture is totally inappropriate for this site can you say heavy

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 08:49:09 MDT Print View

Yeah mark, those boots might be heavy, but their total skin out weigh is so low it allows them the flexibility to go with the sturdier boots.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/29/2013 09:12:05 MDT Print View

A bird in the hand is worth ...

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 09:12:18 MDT Print View

Matthew


Those damn Libs. Tyranny? Show examples. And please don't post stupid, inane me me's. Present evidence on your paranoid, delusional rants that the Obama Admin. are tyrannical.

waiting.

ps.....I am glad to be a liberal...beats the hell out of being some uptight, homophobic, racist, conservative any day of the week

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/29/2013 09:22:36 MDT Print View

The tattoo adds nothing.



Thank you Mr. Helwig!

Chaff is in full swing this morning!

Edited by kthompson on 06/29/2013 09:30:11 MDT.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 09:24:38 MDT Print View

I must call foul (fowl?) on those gals. Every small fowl hunter I know wrap their doves/quail/pigeon/whatever in bacon (which kind of defeats the purpose I guess).

So each model would need to gain about 75 lbs and have a Marlboro light cigarette in the other hand to truly represent my observations on my hunting friends and family ( ... and hoping this doesn't pop up on google search under my name)

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 09:27:12 MDT Print View

"Present evidence on your paranoid, delusional rants that the Obama Admin. are tyrannical"

I find his assertion neither paranoid nor delusional. After all, this administration has charged more would-be whistleblowers with violating state secrecy laws than all previous administrations combined. That seems a bit tyrannical, especially coming from an administration that promised to be the most transparent ever. And that doesn't even get to the warrantless spying and the killing of Americans without due process.

"ps.....I am glad to be a liberal...beats the hell out of being some uptight, homophobic, racist, conservative any day of the week"

I know uptight, homophobic, racist (self proclaimed) liberals as well -- hatred isn't owned by one political philosophy.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 09:29:07 MDT Print View

"So each model would need to gain about 75 lbs and have a Marlboro light cigarette in the other hand to truly represent my observations on my hunting friends and family ( ... and hoping this doesn't pop up on google search under my name)"

Need that Real Tree hoody too. And some Uggs for camp. Ugh.

Up here it is probably closer to 100 pounds. Never lived anywhere with so many overweight people.





Edit: Where is Travis?

Edited by kthompson on 06/29/2013 09:45:23 MDT.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Re: What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/29/2013 10:11:56 MDT Print View

"The tattoo adds nothing'

It helps Craig aim. He needs a target.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: What to do on 06/29/2013 10:14:51 MDT Print View

I love how nothing gets missed in these threads.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 10:17:26 MDT Print View

"Up here it is probably closer to 100 pounds. Never lived anywhere with so many overweight people."

I think MI beats CA in fat any day of the week.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: look at those gals on 06/29/2013 10:34:23 MDT Print View

"I think MI beats CA in fat any day of the week."


Humboldt is unlike the rest of CA in this respect. Stoners, rainy, low income, cheap grass fed beef, cookies. So different than SoCal.

Haven't been back east in a decade or so, but yeah fat is everywhere.

Tons of guns here too. See plenty people packing on the trails. Never heard a retort outside of hunting season.

Camo is fashion year round here too. Classy.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
uptight, homophobic, racist on 06/29/2013 11:02:01 MDT Print View

Ken Helwig said:
"ps.....I am glad to be a liberal...beats the hell out of being some uptight, homophobic, racist, conservative any day of the week"

This really made me laugh hard, Ken. My best friend is a black conservative and my assistant at work is a gay man with aids (yeah, I hired him...strictly based on his ABILITY, not some quota or affirmative action). LOL Nice try. You did get the conservative part right,though.LOL

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/29/2013 11:10:30 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: uptight, homophobic, racist on 06/29/2013 11:18:52 MDT Print View

You can always tell someone is going to drop some knowledge when they call you an uptight, homophobic, racist, conservative.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 06/29/2013 11:27:19 MDT.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/29/2013 12:27:58 MDT Print View

One last comment on the photo. Nice farmer tan on the one on the right.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
What to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/29/2013 14:28:50 MDT Print View

SEE? Its working.

No one noticed the guns; probably never even saw them in the first place. The eye is drawn elsewhere immediately.

The solution is obvious: firearm-toting persons must hike naked from the knees up to the forehead. This allows for some level of protection at each end.

Problem solved.



Onward, to the next topic.

Mark Ries
(mtmnmark) - M

Locale: IOWAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
a bird in the hand is worth on 06/29/2013 14:40:07 MDT Print View

Tim so you have a different point of veiw

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Re: Re: look at the boots on those gals on 06/29/2013 15:54:51 MDT Print View

Can you provide a link for "this administration has charged more would-be whistleblowers with violating state secrecy laws than all previous administrations combined".

Thank You

Aldo

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Racist homophobes on 06/29/2013 16:41:44 MDT Print View

Just because your best friend is a black conservative and your assistant is gay doesn't at all mean you aren't a conservative racist homophobic nutter.

Not sure how those are at all related....

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Racist homophobes on 06/29/2013 19:53:20 MDT Print View

Black friend, gay coworker, Hitler-bama, keep going, I almost have bingo.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
(Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure.... on 06/29/2013 22:23:11 MDT Print View

Jennifer said : "Just because your best friend is a black conservative and your assistant is gay doesn't at all mean you aren't a conservative racist homophobic nutter.

Not sure how those are at all related...."

Good lord, if that does not prove i'm not a racist or homophobe, what will? Seriously, are you people for real?? Where do you get these ideas? If I used your logic, I must absolutely HATE dogs, because I own one. LOL. Normally, I would just shrug it off when someone says that the first thing a Liberal does is attack you for being a racist when you criticize the President (or ANY black person you happen not to agree with, for that matter), but it looks like that is exactly what is going on here. Is your argument really that weak that you feel you must accuse people who have different views of being a racist in order to win it? Jennifer, you must realize you just proved the point I was making all along, right?

t

r

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/29/2013 22:27:03 MDT.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: (Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure.... on 06/29/2013 22:30:24 MDT Print View

Good lord, if that does not prove i'm not a racist or homophobe, what will?

Look, I am going to bed b/c I have a packrafting float planned for tomorrow, so I apologize that this is a hit and run. But if you think this is how it works, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what racism is.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
(Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure....Part Two. on 06/29/2013 22:45:18 MDT Print View

Spelt !:
"Look, I am going to bed b/c I have a packrafting float planned for tomorrow, so I apologize that this is a hit and run. But if you think this is how it works, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what racism is."

You mean because I value people based on ability and work ethic rather than by the color of their skin or sexual orientation? Then yes, I have an extremely good grasp of the meaning. I believe it's you who are actually being racist by "labeling" people by skin color or sexual orientation. The Democrat party has actually been holding minorities down by keeping them dependent on the government. My buddy (yeah, the black guy--I don't see any color anymore, I just consider him my buddy), sent me this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi_KaZ53eDg

By the way...with the new influx of 11million new "citizens" that we will be having here soon, take a good look at me, because I am going to be considered a minority, now. If you value people that way and must put a label on me, that is.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/29/2013 23:01:00 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: What to do? on 06/29/2013 23:03:24 MDT Print View

Can we get religion in here somehow?


"A well rounded Chaff is best."
-Jesus

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
(Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure.... on 06/29/2013 23:12:21 MDT Print View

Good one, Ken. Maybe we should all lighten up.

Black White Supremacist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exNWAvlNYdM

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/29/2013 23:19:16 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: What's with this? on 06/29/2013 23:17:29 MDT Print View

This is an automated message to notify you of a new PM from
bigfoot2 at Backpackinglight.com's Forums.

To respond to this PM, login at backpackinglight.com and then visit the following URL:


Message From User Follows:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, Ken,
If you are ever in Oregon, consider yourself invited to hike with me anytime. I''l bring my tiny pistol and you can bring your rapier whit...it will be...fun.

Sincerely,
Matt Perry

PS--I'm serious.
--------------------------------------------------------------



Do you think Matthew means wit not whit? Or is he going for another word that means tiny? Should I be insulted? My rapier shouldn't even enter the discussion. I'm puzzled.

Discuss.

dufus

Edited by kthompson on 06/29/2013 23:23:17 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
(Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure.... on 06/29/2013 23:21:49 MDT Print View

Just trying to be nice, Ken. Some us here still try to do that occasionally. You should try it sometime.
I was saying that we could go on a hike. I noticed you are not too far away and Oregon is beautiful, there are lots of good spots. You might just make a friend. Unless you think conservatism is catchy (I wish).

M
(You should be glad I didn't say RAPIST wit...thank God for spell check..when I use it, that is)

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 00:17:53 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: It's not about hunting..........what part of "Shall not be infringed" do people not get? on 06/30/2013 06:26:12 MDT Print View

Matthew, I'll ask again : what exactly concerns you about people on the trail?

Have you had a traumatising experience?

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: (Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure.... on 06/30/2013 07:40:23 MDT Print View

Matthew, since you obviously can only make your arguments using Internet memes and regurgitating Glenn Beck fanaticism, I understand this must be a difficult concept to get. I did not say you WERE a racist homophobe, I simply said that the act of having a "black friend" and a gay assistant does not mean you are NOT a racist homophobe.

And as a flaming left wing socialist liberal, I am proud that I am intolerant of intolerance. There are some cultures and ideas in this world that are not acceptable, and should not be respected: racism, hatred, your obviously demeaning comment about "new citizens" is a rather glaring example of racism by the way, xenophobia, misogyny...no, I shouldn't have to tolerate those things.

Now. Back to my dehydrating.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re:Liberals on 06/30/2013 07:56:11 MDT Print View

Good Morning Jen.

Thanks Matthew. I cross the border to the north from time to time. You never know. I'll keep an eye peeled for you.

As for guns on the trail. Which is more intimidating, 9mm automatic, or long barreled, large caliber revolver? Or do rifles trump pistols?

So many choices.


It's a good question Peter.

As for myself. I have had guns pointed at me a couple of times. In town, never on the trail. In my 46 years years here I am glad to say I have never been in a situation where I thought my having a gun would result in a better outcome.

Edited by kthompson on 06/30/2013 08:14:35 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re:Liberals on 06/30/2013 08:13:11 MDT Print View

Good morning Ken.

I also like Peter's question.

While people who generalize may assume that all liberals hate guns, I can absolutely see how they serve a purpose. If I lived in Alaska, or remote West Texas, or something similar...I get it. But I do wonder why some people feel the need to extend their manhood to include packing heat on the trails if there are no grizzlies around.

What are you afraid of?? Who are you thinking about shooting?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: (Sigh) ...racist...yeah, sure.... on 06/30/2013 10:44:39 MDT Print View

Matthew, could you please stop posting STUPID me me's and answer my question??? Tyranny from our government is what you are so paranoid about. Please give me an answer. You equated gun control laws to Hitler Germany. I am quite amused with this analogy.

Yes I did generalize earlier about conservatives. Unfairly so to a degree I might add. But when I see the pro gun, teabilly, hate everything that Obama or liberals stand for, I cannot help but paint stupid Teapublicans in that light......so excuse me while I go outside and put up my racist Obama effigy and start shooting at it.(that was a joke btw)

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/30/2013 11:14:25 MDT Print View

Perter S said: "Matthew, I'll ask again : what exactly concerns you about people on the trail? "

Absolutely nothing...when I carry. That's the point. Like I said before, I never worry about animals, but, people are a much different story. Have you ever hiked into an illegal pot field? That's one scary feeling when you realize where you are. I am not naive enough to think people on the trail are all just one big, happy, hippie hiking family. I know better. I choose to look for the good in people I meet on the trail, but I also am prepared just in case they are not so nice. As someone famously said " Trust, but verify".


Ken H said: "Matthew, could you please stop posting STUPID me me's and answer my question??? Tyranny from our government is what you are so paranoid about. Please give me an answer. You equated gun control laws to Hitler Germany. I am quite amused with this analogy. "

Though my opinion was very clear on this. What, exactly do you need clarified there, Ken? Arms are the first thing Hitler (or any dictator or tyrant looking to oppress people)takes away... that way, their ability to fight back and defend themselves is severely compromised, making them easier to abuse. What don't you understand? Seems so simple even you should be able to figure out the correlation here.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 11:16:14 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Being Honest on 06/30/2013 11:20:16 MDT Print View

Jennifer said: "I did not say you WERE a racist homophobe, I simply said that the act of having a "black friend" and a gay assistant does not mean you are NOT a racist homophobe.
"

Sure..we all knew what you meant. Don't sugar coat it. In the context and placement you put it in, you were calling me those names and trying to change the tone of the argument (which succeeded, by the way). Classic ploy of the far left. At least be honest about it. You can debate the definition of "THE" all day, but the meaning and intent is the same.
Or should I have said, even if you implement "COMMON CORE" crap in schools, 2 + 2 will STILL = 4, no matter how you brainwash kids.

Now, I have some questions for you guys:
1. Please answer MY question about why you still support and post on this site, even though it was started and is run by Ryan Jordan, a second amendment supporter? It seems to me you should all be boycotting it, if you feel that strongly about the issue.
2. Why exactly, are you so scared of guns, and responsible gun owners, on the trail?
3. Can you please research gun violence on our trails and get back to me with even one case where an armed hiker was killed? I bet you will not find ANY instance of this at all. Pay close attention to the deaths from violence on the AT, near towns. If those hikers were armed, I bet they would still be alive today.
M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 11:36:23 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/30/2013 11:45:24 MDT Print View

Matthew, thank you for replying.

Are you saying that you carry a gun because you FELT that the pot field incident could potentially be life threatening, or that you WERE threatened on your life in that situation?

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Being Honest on 06/30/2013 12:00:30 MDT Print View

To answer your 1. question: "We tolerate Anybody. Even the intolerable" - Dillon, Alien 3

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Being Honest on 06/30/2013 12:01:20 MDT Print View

1. Please answer MY question about why you still support and post on this site, even though it was started and is run by Ryan Jordan, a second amendment supporter? It seems to me you should all be boycotting it, if you feel that strongly about the issue.


The sites primary purpose is to promote lightweight wilderness travel. I can dig it. Everyone knows how I feel about RJ the human.


2. Why exactly, are you so scared of guns, and responsible gun owners, on the trail?

I'm not. See answer to #3

3. Can you please research gun violence on our trails and get back to me with even one case where an armed hiker was killed? I bet you will not find ANY instance of this at all. Right. So much safer out there it seems. But that drive to the trailhead. Man.


Pay close attention to the deaths from violence on the AT, near towns. If those hikers were armed, I bet they would still be alive today.

That's a pretty big leap there fella. If they had the presence of mind, were properly trained, had been on the defensive, possibly.
Soldiers get shot all the time. Two with guns. With or without a weapon one will still be the loser.

Matthew.

Can you please research gun violence on our trails and get back to me with even one case where an unarmed hiker was killed by some other hiker with a gun?

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Being Honest on 06/30/2013 12:07:55 MDT Print View

How many hikers carry guns? That must affect the death numbers on gun carrying hikers....

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/30/2013 12:20:57 MDT Print View

"Matthew, thank you for replying.

Are you saying that you carry a gun because you FELT that the pot field incident could potentially be life threatening, or that you WERE threatened on your life in that situation?"

No problem. Well, it certainly did not help my feelings. LOL. But seriously, people are generally good and decent, but there are those who are not. That's just the way of the world. Always has been, always will be. I am just being a realist because I know human nature and what man is capable of. A good way to see my perspective is the parachute analogy: it's better to have a parachute (or gun) and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Same reason people buy insurance. I just think of my gun as insurance that I hope I never need to use (this being Backpacking LIGHT, I just ditch 12 oz. of food or something else to keep my base weight down). :)

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 12:35:20 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 06/30/2013 12:42:04 MDT Print View

We'll, let's hope nobody reads this and agrees with you. That would make them buy a bigger gun than you. Nobody here would want that. I think we can agree on that in some strange way ;-)

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 12:50:53 MDT Print View

Here's an interesting article I came across on the topic:

http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/guns.htm

M

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 12:56:23 MDT Print View

"We'll, let's hope nobody reads this and agrees with you. That would make them buy a bigger gun than you. Nobody here would want that. I think we can agree on that in some strange way ;-)"

Don't follow your logic...it's not the cold war and they would not be worried about me carrying if they felt a gun was needed. They'd never even SEE my little 9mm, anyway. They'd be worried about non-responsible "bad people", know what I mean? As long as I don't threaten them, why would they feel that way?

M

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 13:02:49 MDT Print View

You're still not answering my question Matthew...show my where the Govt. is infringing on your rights to own a weapon. To answer your question about why I or others support this site when Ryan hunts or supports the second amendment? I stated earlier that I own a handgun. Do I carry it while hiking? Heck no. No need to. I live in the Santa Cruz Mountains and know full well of illegal pot farms....there are many up in these mountains. BUT......I hike in The Sierra's and at 10,000 feet I think I am pretty safe out there. Matthew I guess you support open carry laws too right? You probably are one of those John Wayne wannabe types that thinks that by having a firearm on you that you would indeed stop crimes from happening. I guess too, that you support teachers being armed to protect their students. (shaking my head in disgust)

Edited by kennyhel77 on 06/30/2013 13:14:02 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 13:15:55 MDT Print View

I wasn't thinking about the cold war.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 13:16:15 MDT Print View

"Your still not answering my question Matthew...show my where the Govt. is infringing on your rights to own a weapon."

--LOL..you serious? Just look at California or some other states. Cali now is making it illegal to own ammo without a permit. Uhh...yeah, that's restricting, in my book. Dianne Finestein actually came out and said publically that she believes no one should own guns in the US. She is a public official and government representative.

"To answer your question about why I or others support this site when Ryan hunts or supports the second ammendment? I stated earlier that I own a handgun. Do I carry it while hiking? Heck no. No need to. I live in the Santa Cruz Mountains and know full well of illegal pot farms....there are many up in these mountains. BUT......I hike in The Sierra's and at 10,000 feet I think I am pretty safe out there."

---That's your right. I would not think of infringing on it. Do whatever you feel is right FOR YOU.

"Matthew I guess you support open carry laws too right?"

--Absolutely. Doesn't bother me one bit. Do I open carry? No. I have a concealed permit.

" You probably are one of those John Wayne wannabe types that thinks that by having a firearm on you that you would indeed stop crimes from happening."

--Nope. But by having it on me, I could FINISH it. LOL.

" I guess too, that you support teachers being armed to protect their students. (shaking my head in disgust)"

--Absolutely! Police normally show up AFTER a crime has been commited, not during. I know I would not target a school if every teacher was armed. The idea of "gun free schools" or "gun free zones" is laughable. Those are "people hunting preserves", in my opinion. The President's kids are protected by armed guards in school, why should the rest of America's children not be afforded that same right? Are they any less valuable? I say we should do everything possible to protect them, and if having a teacher properly trained carry a gun in the classroom will do that, why not?

Do you know the country with the lowest gun violence? It's Switzerland. Know why? It is a LAW that every citizen be armed and must practice with their weapon. Go figure....guns deter crime. That's why police have them. LOL

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 13:56:51 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Switzerland on 06/30/2013 13:22:41 MDT Print View

Not as cut and dry as you think. It is not every citizen for starters.



Most don't have ammo either.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Edited by kthompson on 06/30/2013 13:32:28 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Bad people on 06/30/2013 13:28:49 MDT Print View

Who's to decide who's the "Bad people" anyway? What if the "Bad people" judged you to be the bad one?

Edited the sarcasm away. This is too important .

Edited by prse on 06/30/2013 13:37:47 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Being Honest on 06/30/2013 13:38:17 MDT Print View

And while we are being honest, I found your PM to be kinda creepy and disingenuous. Especially with the ...fun... part.


Do you carry when hiking in groups?

Edited by kthompson on 06/30/2013 13:39:41 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 13:40:54 MDT Print View

"Who's to decide who's the "Bad people" anyway? Judge Dred?"

--I would assume the hiker being assaulted at the time would have to make that decision themselves. I would never do that to anyone, so I would feel absolutely safe if I encountered another hiker carrying. If I assaulted someone, I would EXPECT them to defend themselves.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 13:59:41 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 13:44:11 MDT Print View

What if the situation wasn't that clear?

Please read my edited post above

Edited by prse on 06/30/2013 13:46:39 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 13:44:41 MDT Print View

"And while we are being honest, I found your PM to be kinda creepy and disingenuous. Especially with the ...fun... part."

--Sorry. Not how it was intended. Supposed to be tongue in cheek. It was late and I was tired. I WAS serious...if you're ever up here in Oregon, we should do a hike. The Three Sisters is beautiful this time of year.


"Do you carry when hiking in groups?"

--I never really hike in large groups. Normally just me and a friend or two, so I guess the answer would be yes.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 13:45:13 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Stop on 06/30/2013 14:03:37 MDT Print View

I'll stop here. Just remember that you believe that all the "Bad people" (your words) you could meet has the same right as you to carry a lethal weapon.

Take care, see you in another thread.

Edited by prse on 06/30/2013 16:06:54 MDT.

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
This and that on 06/30/2013 14:13:46 MDT Print View

You gotta love the way people pick and choose what parts of a conversation they will attack or defend, instead of treating the subject as a whole. Whether you lug around a rifle or shotgun to add a bit of wild game to the pantry, or carrying a handgun for personal protection, there is nothing wrong with going armed into the wilds. It is how you use that weapon. That said, I would like to address some comments made on this thread.

Daryl Daryl stated that he was afraid of unleashed dogs on the trail, and that his view of guns was similar. Excited dogs can jump and bark and bite, so can guns. Both. Should be leashed, so to speak. Guns should be concealed if at all possible, just for the peace of mind of others. And a leashed dog might just prevent it from getting shot.

Spelt- your correct, it's what they do after they get elected that shows their true colors.

Dean- I don't think this administration has charged any more whistle blowers than others, I just think that their problems have been in the press more often.

Peter- What concerns us about people on the trail? The same things that concern us about people anywhere else. While people on the trail tend to be more laid back, not all have that same mindset.

Bob Bankhead- All good ideas, but while I wouldn't ignore the gun, I would be aware of it. And that hike naked thing, you sure about that, not all of us are in pristine condition.

Ken Helwig- I think it is you that needs a better understanding of the 2nd Amendment. Ours is based on the English Bill of Rights, enacted to combat the tyranny of King James II who tried to disarm his political enemies, ( the Protestants ) and supported the natural rights of self defense, resistance to oppression, and to act in defense of the realm.

Equating gun control to Hitler's Germany. One of the things he did after seizing power was to enact the Nazi Weapons Act of 1938, which gave the Nazis power to institute background checks, registration, control what ammo was allowed, and made it illegal for Jews to own guns, truncheons, and bladed weapons. Basically disarming an entire section of the German population.

Tyranny does not have to be restricted to one person, it can be tyranny by the majority. You wanted example- slavery, women's sufferage, The National Defense Authorization Act, which allows for the arrest and detainment of American citizens without warrants or due process. How about Congress ceding its war declaration powers to the President which allows him or her to start a war for whatever reason they think the public will buy. Patriot Act reductions of individual rights, illegal wire taps and spying on citizens (Verizon). TSA confiscation of private property and intimate searches during aircraft boarding. Passing a 2500+ page healthcare act with no floor debate and not originating in the House of Representatives as required by the Constitution. The President bypassing Congress to enact laws by Presidential decree. Sounds a bit like oppression and tyranny doesn't it.

Matthew- you pretty much get a pass because most of what you said is correct. The Liberals do seem to trot out the racist card a lot if you happen to disagree with them. I do agree with the others, the memes are a bit much.

Last but not least

Jen Mitol- Being a " flaming left wing socialist liberal". Go for it, diversity is what makes life interesting. Part of the fun is having an intelligent conversation and trying to change opinions.

I'm glad that you are "intolerant of intolerance", we all should be.

Matthew's comment about "new citizens" was not racist, but fact.

"I wonder why some people feel the need to extend their manhood to include packing heat when there are no grizzlies around". Sexist much?
Bears aren't the only dangerous critters out there.

"What are you afraid of, who do you plan on shooting? Not much if I am armed, and no one unless my safety is involved.

"Purity of hiking trumps mine". It doesn't and it shouldn't, mutual respect would go a long way.

"A well regulated militia" are citizen soldiers like the Guard and Reserve, not private citizens, unless they are called up to serve.

Calling someone a yokel, not sure if that is racist, regionist or what, but it is rude and demeaning.

"Lay off the testosterone" Again, sexist, you a member of the girly girl man hating club?


A handgun is a deterrent, whether loaded or not, it give people pause, it makes them think before acting. Just like a leashed dog gives people peace of mind, a firearm give other people the same peace of mind. I personally think they should be concealed and brought out only in cases of extreme need. Out of site out of mind.


Thanks for allowing me to rant.


Doug

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Nothing new on 06/30/2013 14:14:05 MDT Print View

The way I see it Matthew is not doing his position any favors at all. Too bad for those that have good arguments in favor of the second amendment- and there are good arguments.
Ken Helwig and a few others are doing those that oppose the right to carry no favors either, and there are good arguments there too.
I see both Ken H. and Matthew lacking a well thought out argument, and equally damaging to their cause. But I am sure both just view the other as outrageous.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 14:14:41 MDT Print View

No harm no foul Matthew. Three Sisters is on my to do list.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Oh on 06/30/2013 14:14:59 MDT Print View

But I had a great trip with the girls! 107 was just a bit much though..

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 14:15:40 MDT Print View

"I'll stop here. Just remember that you believe that all the "Bad people" (your words) you could meet has the same right as you to carry a lethal wepon.

Take care, see you in another thread."

--That is absolutely true. And criminals and "bad people" will not obey any laws anyway, so all the more reason to not restrict the law-abiding citizens rights to own a gun. Criminals will get guns, no matter the laws. If you take that right away from the "good people", you are just making them targets.

Thanks for your opinions on the matter. We might not agree, but I value your input none the less, Peter.

M

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
PS on 06/30/2013 14:16:28 MDT Print View

I think anyone going armed anywhere should be trained and competent with their weapon of choice

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: PS on 06/30/2013 14:24:11 MDT Print View

"I think anyone going armed anywhere should be trained and competent with their weapon of choice"

+1

This was fun. Thanks everyone.

Edited by kthompson on 06/30/2013 14:29:17 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 14:32:06 MDT Print View

Hey, Kat.
Nice of you to chime in. I still love those pockets you made for my old Golite Gust pack, by the way (free plug).

http://www.outdoortrailgear.com/cottage-industries/mountaingoatgear/mountaingoat-hats-goods-store/

Doug,
Where you been? Better late than never, I guess :)

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 14:48:58 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 14:42:18 MDT Print View

Hey Perry,
I actually believe in the second amendment and wish you did not give some people so much ammo against your position.
Thanks for the free plug.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: This and that on 06/30/2013 14:53:25 MDT Print View

"Dean- I don't think this administration has charged any more whistle blowers than others, I just think that their problems have been in the press more often."

No, it's true, this administration has prosecuted six whistleblowers, all other administrations combined have prosecuted three (including Daniel Ellsberg). A simple google search will turn up plenty of articles - including articles by The Nation, The Atlantic, and Mother Jones.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 14:53:49 MDT Print View

"Hey Perry,
I actually believe in the second amendment and wish you did not give some people so much ammo against your position.
Thanks for the free plug."

How so, Kat? Call it like I see it. Was it my me me's? LOL

c

Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 14:58:58 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 15:17:44 MDT Print View

That is more Libertarian or Teabilly than conservative ^^

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: This and that on 06/30/2013 15:20:44 MDT Print View

Doug, that was my personal opinion, I really didn't look into it that much. Sorry about that.

Doug

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 15:21:14 MDT Print View

"That is more Libertarian or Teabilly than conservative ^^"

--Exactly. I never labeled myself that, you guys did. I consider myself a Constitutional Conservative. Reagan said that he did not leave the Democratic party, it left HIM....I feel the same way about the Republican party at this point, and that's a shame because the Republican party have been champions of civil rights and liberty, as well as less government intervention, historically. They need to get back to their roots in order to survive. They could have 11 million new voters registered soon, if they just let them know they stood for jobs, low taxes, less government and traditional family values (issues very important to the Mexican families of today).

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 15:25:57 MDT.

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 15:23:58 MDT Print View

Strictly speaking Matt, he is right about that, it is a bit more Libertarian. The teabilly thing is a bit insulting though.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Guns on 06/30/2013 15:29:02 MDT Print View

Guess i'm a Constitutional Conservative Quasi-Libertarian, then?
(sigh)...as for Ken's "Teabilly" comment...unfortunately, I have been dealing with nasty remarks like that this whole thread.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 15:32:50 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Well done Gross Bob! on 06/30/2013 15:59:02 MDT Print View

"I think anyone going armed anywhere should be trained and competent with their weapon of choice"

+48

I'm saying this as a gun owner and a believer that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right, it's too bad that the Bill of Rights isn't mirrored by a Bill of Responsibilities.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 16:03:27 MDT Print View

Matthew I see it this way. A lot of what The Republicans want to do for this country does not jive with me nor a lot of others out there in this great country. Ban abortion (me personally, I don't like abortion, but it is not for me to say what a woman does with her body), restrict who wants to be married, deregulate just about anything they can get their hands on, etc. The whole religious right make themselves out to be lunatics...ie...Michelle Bachmann, Rick Perry, Rand Paul, Sarah Palin....well you get the picture. The Republican Party sure does not resemble what good ole Ronnie Reagan had back in the 80's......right???? I have seen enough of the BS that the far right has flung at Obama and the way Libs are marginalized, and to be honest I find it disgusting. Sorry but there are a lot of folks that hate the fact that there is a black President. The whole gun debate that the Government is here to take your gun is paranoid to say the least. The proclamations of "you're going to have to take my gun from my dead body" stuff is hilarious. Yeah militias galvanizing to protect us from the tyranny of our Govt. LOL....see long that slaughter will have to take to get finished. Yep just call me a raving Lib that lives near Santa Cruz and wears Birkenstocks all day......furthest from the truth. Obviously you can believe what you want to. But carrying a firearm while backpacking borders on paranoid and delusional. There is more danger driving to a trailhead than backpacking. Yep those crazed backpackers, 20 miles from civilization is gonna getcha!

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 16:06:38 MDT Print View

"--Exactly. I never labeled myself that, you guys did. I consider myself a Constitutional Conservative. Reagan said that he did not leave the Democratic party, it left HIM....I feel the same way about the Republican party at this point, and that's a shame because the Republican party have been champions of civil rights and liberty, as well as less government intervention, historically. They need to get back to their roots in order to survive. They could have 11 million new voters registered soon, if they just let them know they stood for jobs, low taxes, less government and traditional family values (issues very important to the Mexican families of today)."


Mathew I actually agree with that. But until The GOP stop with the crazy talk it will not happen. The House will oppose the immigration bill which will disenfranchise more people that are not white and middle class. Opposing same sex marriage will do the same. The GOP is way out of whack with society and what this country has changed to

Trace Richardson
(tracedef) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Really? on 06/30/2013 16:09:57 MDT Print View

Haven't really had a reason to carry while backpacking yet and don't see a reason why I would in the future, but wondering if anyone that has open carried legally while on a trail has actually had negative comments made to them regarding their gun...? What would one even say to someone that is carrying safely and legally? Sorry if I'm a little clueless on this one .... not trolling, I promise..... genuinely curious.

Edited by tracedef on 06/30/2013 16:15:32 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 16:20:50 MDT Print View

"that's a shame because the Republican party have been champions of civil rights and liberty, as well as less government intervention, historically."

You've got to go pretty far back in history for that, the Republicans stopped being the champions of civil rights and liberty decades upon decades ago.

"They could have 11 million new voters registered soon, if they just let them know they stood for jobs, low taxes, less government and traditional family values"

Traditional family values is a term that's always made me smile. It sounds good but doesn't really mean anything beyond boy marries girl and then they breed (none of that boy marrying boy and girl marrying girl stuff). I know some republicans like to recall the good old days of the 50s. Of course, the family values of the 50s included (for the working class) the belief that women should stay at home and take care of the kids while dad brought home the bacon - which tied far too many women to abusive husbands because they had no real way out. And the local authorities far too often turned a blind eye to the abuse, and clergy far too often counseled women to stay with their abusive spouses. Those women who did venture into the workplace met with significant harassment and less pay for equal work. Nah, not a fan of traditional family values!

As far as the rest, neither party stands for jobs, not in any meaningful way. Both parties sold out long ago - both support laws and regulations designed to continue the transfer of wealth to an ever smaller group of people. It's been going on for quite some time, regardless of which party held the reigns.

In my opinion, almost all of our politicians are clowns these days, on both sides of the aisle. Of course, the republicans have some of the more publicly ignorant clowns - the Gohmerts, the Bachmanns the Palins and the Cruzes exhibit the worst aspects of human nature - and they relish doing it for the cameras!

Oh well, you're a Constitutional Conservative, I'm just a cynic. :-) I have no doubt that when I make it back out to Oregon one of these days we'll enjoy a hike together.

Hope your son is well and is home soon.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Skin Color. on 06/30/2013 16:28:22 MDT Print View

"Sorry but there are a lot of folks that hate the fact that there is a black President."

I disagree, Ken. My problem is not that the President is black, but that of his administrations policies and his wiping his a$$ with our constitution. Race does not play a factor in that at all. I could care less. I know, personally, I would have no problem voting for whatever candidate I most agreed with, regardless of their skin color. Democrats are the ones labeling people based on color and ethnicity. Dr. Ben Carson is a great example of someone I would vote for in a heartbeat. If he does run in 2016, you can bet the first thing he will be called is an "Uncle Tom" by those on the left that want to keep blacks dependent on the government. "How could a black man be a conservative? He MUST be brainwashed or an Uncle Tom!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb6NU1giRA

I know you hate my me me's, but the one below is 100% true. They are FACTS.

r

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 16:32:17 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 16:34:08 MDT Print View

@ Doug

Thanks for your post.
I want to be Doug when I grow up.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Skin Color. on 06/30/2013 16:38:28 MDT Print View

Matthew, I never wrote that you indvidually have an issue with Obama being black. But there are plenty that do. If you don't believe that racism is alive and well in this country think again. Believe me, I can offer up 100's of these




meme

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Guns on 06/30/2013 16:39:06 MDT Print View

"But carrying a firearm while backpacking borders on paranoid and delusional. There is more danger driving to a trailhead than backpacking."

I just don't get why people continue to say this. Did anyone read the article Matt linked to earlier in the thread? You should. It was a well-reasoned, non emotional commentary on carrying guns while backpacking.

A gun is a simply another tool in a person's backpacking arsenal (pun intended). Some folks use groundsheets, some don't. Some folks carry extra clothes to sleep in, some don't. Some folks carry a pretty substantial first aid kit, some don't. Some folks carry a gun, some don't.

Personally, I think that being so troubled about people packing while backpacking more closely borders on the paranoid and delusional than those who decide to carry a gun. Yep, those crazed backpackers with guns, 20 miles from civilization is gonna getcha!

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Freedom on 06/30/2013 16:41:05 MDT Print View

"Hope your son is well and is home soon."

Thanks, Doug! He's doing well in Afghanistan (even though he's a GINGER in 120 degree heat!), and is one of the reasons we are all able to have these nice "discussions".

c

c

c

c

M
OOOOOOOOOORAHHHHHHHHHH!

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 16:51:14 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Skin Color. on 06/30/2013 16:41:42 MDT Print View

Ken,
Is that not clearly a cartoon mocking the right, most likely from someone more closely affiliated with your position, trying to make a point?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Skin Color. on 06/30/2013 16:57:24 MDT Print View

Here is this better?

race

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Lyin' African. on 06/30/2013 17:02:53 MDT Print View

Ken...nothing about race in that last one, just the fact that we have someone in the white house who lied about being born in the US.

M

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Lyin' African. on 06/30/2013 17:08:05 MDT Print View

Since when is Hawaii not part of the U.S.?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Lyin' African. on 06/30/2013 17:20:30 MDT Print View

Sooooo Matthew you are a birther huh?


Lol...figures

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Right. on 06/30/2013 17:21:13 MDT Print View

"Since when is Hawaii not part of the U.S.?"

---Right... (wink). And we should believe him about that because he's so transparent and never lies. Gotcha'.

M

BJ Clark
(bj.clark) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: Skin Color. on 06/30/2013 17:35:43 MDT Print View

I care little for the ideological arguments. They seldom bear any resemblance to thoughtful discourse. Ideologues from the right and left tend to rewrite history to match their own agendas. But as a historian , let me correct a few things wrong with the facts in the poster.

1. MLK was not a Republican..
2. A majority of both parties voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
3. The blacks elected to congress in the 1800's were not part of the conservative wing of the Republican Party.

And let's not forget what party southern dem's joined after a Democratic president signed CRA into law.

It used to be that both parties had liberal and conservative wings. They bore little resemblance to the two parties today. The CR Act and the Voting Rights Act caused a major realignment of the two parties. Unfortunately, ideology often blinds us to the realities of our past. Now for me, back to the forums that I usually haunt. Political discussions are too much of a busman's holiday for me!

Edited by bj.clark on 06/30/2013 17:38:41 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Skin Color. on 06/30/2013 17:46:09 MDT Print View

"It used to be that both parties had liberal and conservative wings. They bore little resemblance to the two parties today."

This is, perhaps, one of the saddest things of all, that and the moderates seem to be pretty much gone now.

Thanks for the post BJ.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
MLK WAS A Republican. on 06/30/2013 18:07:16 MDT Print View

BJ " MLK was not a Republican.. "

This is simply not true. See article below. I also had the pleasure of meeting his daughter, Dr. Avita King, this year, and she confirmed that he WAS, in fact, a Republican. I asked her myself. In the same conversation, she admitted that he would be disgusted with the way the party is run today. This is as close as you can get to the horses mouth (unfortunately--- for us all).

http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/2013/01/martin-luther-king-jr-was-a-republican/


This is a picture of my wife and Dr. King (I was the one taking the picture):

avita


M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 18:14:51 MDT.

BJ Clark
(bj.clark) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: MLK WAS A Republican. on 06/30/2013 18:23:47 MDT Print View

Alveda king is MLK's niece , and has since disavowed her statement. You also have to take into account her own political leanings for her original statement. That is not the point however. He never affiliated with either party and often criticized them both. There is no evidenced of party affiliation to be found. Her statement was not corroborated by any evidence. Like I wrote earlier, ideology clouds historical accuracy. But you can find useful evidence for most historical questions, just not from any politically motivated media outlets. Now I am out!

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: MLK WAS A Republican. on 06/30/2013 18:30:13 MDT Print View

"http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/2013/01/martin-luther-king-jr-was-a-republican/"

Matt, the article you link to provides no proof whatsoever that MLK was a republican, just a lot of speculation from a republican communications strategist (who does a bit of the history rewriting that BJ posted about).

From MLK himself, we have: "Actually, the Negro has been betrayed by both the Republican and the Democratic party. The Democrats have betrayed him by capitulating to the whims and caprices of the Southern Dixiecrats. The Republicans have betrayed him by capitulating to the blatant hypocrisy of reactionary right wing northern Republicans. And this coalition of southern Dixiecrats and right wing reactionary northern Republicans defeats every bill and every move towards liberal legislation in the area of civil rights."

We also have: "Although King never publicly supported a political party or candidate for president, in a letter to a civil rights supporter in October 1956 he said that he was undecided as to whether he would vote for Adlai Stevenson or Dwight Eisenhower, but that "In the past I always voted the Democratic ticket." In his autobiography, King says that in 1960 he privately voted for Democratic candidate John F. Kennedy: "I felt that Kennedy would make the best president. I never came out with an endorsement. My father did, but I never made one." King adds that he likely would have made an exception to his non-endorsement policy for a second Kennedy term, saying "Had President Kennedy lived, I would probably have endorsed him in 1964."

And from Snopes: "A commonly circulated item about Martin Luther King which is not included in this list is the claim that King was a Republican. Such claims are based purely on speculation; King himself never expressed an affiliation with, nor endorsed candidates for, any political party. In response to such claims, his son, Martin Luther King III, said: "It is disingenuous to imply that my father was a Republican. He never endorsed any presidential candidate, and there is certainly no evidence that he ever even voted for a Republican.""

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
MLK WAS A Republican. on 06/30/2013 18:31:14 MDT Print View

You are right, she is his niece. Sorry...typing too fast to proof read. I stand by the rest, though. Conversation took place just a few months ago, and I know what i asked and have conveyed her response. Regardless, we all are worse off that the man is not with us today.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 18:39:38 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: MLK WAS A Republican. on 06/30/2013 18:47:55 MDT Print View

"Regardless, we all are worse off that the man is not with us today."

Agreed.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
????? on 06/30/2013 19:07:29 MDT Print View

Uhhhhhh...i'm not a smart guy....what was the main topic of this thread again? LOL

M

PS--Go ahead, Ken....

Edited by bigfoot2 on 06/30/2013 19:08:51 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: ????? on 06/30/2013 19:14:59 MDT Print View

Me??????????????

How dare you!!!!!!!!!!!

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
????? on 06/30/2013 19:25:22 MDT Print View

I left it wiiiiiiide open for you........

M

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: ????? on 06/30/2013 21:14:07 MDT Print View

So I'm out all day in this gorgeous weather...wow this thread got all chaffy!!

What are we talking about?

And Matthew, are you seriously a birther??!! Now how are any of us supposed to take you seriously......

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Yes, I'm a liberal. So what?? on 06/30/2013 21:23:52 MDT Print View

I think guns are fine. I do tend to chuckle a bit tho when people who have no formal, regular training in firearms think that they are going to save the day all Rambo style. You really think your little 9mm is going to do anything against a couple of Uzi-toting drug cartel workers patrolling a pot farm?? Yeah right.

This is why I made my testosterone comments; a gun is an obvious extension of your manhood.
By the way, if everyone toting around guns made us safer, why don't cops want us all to carry? Why don't other countries that DO ban guns have higher crime rates than us???

And honestly, throwing up regurgitated Internet memes really does nothing for your argument. It's rather juvenile and pathetic.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Man-Hood on 06/30/2013 21:41:56 MDT Print View

"I think guns are fine. I do tend to chuckle a bit tho when people who have no formal, regular training in firearms think that they are going to save the day all Rambo style. You really think your little 9mm is going to do anything against a couple of Uzi-toting drug cartel workers patrolling a pot farm?? Yeah right."

---What make you so sure that I do not have any "formal, regular training in firearms"?

"This is why I made my testosterone comments; a gun is an obvious extension of your manhood."

---No, it is a tool. My manhood is my manhood. If that rule were true, i'd need to carry a HOWITZER around with me. You are obviously jealous of those of us who have it and sound ridiculous with these penis-envy statements. Seriously.

"By the way, if everyone toting around guns made us safer, why don't cops want us all to carry?"

---The ones actually following their sworn oath to uphold the Constitution Of The United States DO want us all to have the ability to carry if we so choose. That is why so many sheriffs have come out and blatantly said they will not uphold any laws that disarm the American people. The 31 states that have “shall issue” laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states.


" Why don't other countries that DO ban guns have higher crime rates than us???"

---Uhhhh....because they banned all the guns and the law abiding citizens can't defend themselves. Duh! They DO have higher crime rates...look it up. You just proved my argument.This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, according to Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel “have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.” A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.

The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. Let’s hope more people are catching on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKdBxpKqUvs

"And honestly, throwing up regurgitated Internet memes really does nothing for your argument. It's rather juvenile and pathetic."

---Yeah, i'll give you that. I may be juvenile and pathetic, but at least I am honest and say what I mean and mean what I say. I also try and be respectful and would never think of attacking YOUR manhood (of which, I am sure you have in ample supply).



By the way, my son sent me this today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=44zW84FKd50#at=128

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/01/2013 00:07:52 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Funny... Sort of.. on 07/01/2013 05:06:20 MDT Print View

Well, being a foreigner on this forum, I won't make to big a fuss about what you do in your own country, so I'll try to just stay curious on this topic.
I do think it's interesting to discuss the gun issue with you guys, as guns are very exotic to me. I think the tone in this chaff thread has been okay. When everybody believes strongly in something, it is bound to show. I haven't changed my opinion, but i can see more clearly where people with the opposite opinion comes from.

I've been to USA a couple of times, and I have one day that stands out:

-We went to bathe in a lake with some American friends, and we changed our clothes behind our car. We were naked for about 10 sec, and nobody could see our private parts. Later we was told that that was a little shocking for our friends. In the evening we went to the movies, and the stranger sitting next to me was carrying a handgun. That was very shocking to us. Later we was told that that wasn't unusual.

I think naked bodies is pretty innocent compared to handguns... Hahaha :-)

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Funny... Sort of.. on 07/01/2013 05:53:13 MDT Print View

Peter,
Another curiosity is how movies are rated. Much more lenient ratings for violence than for love making. Something to do with puritans..

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Man-Hood on 07/01/2013 06:13:36 MDT Print View

Penis envy? Seriously? That's what you come up with? Come on.

And you'd probably be surprised to know that I am NOT a gun control nut. Do I think basic, rational regulations are a good idea? Yep. But that's it.

Living in a large city with a huge murder/shooting problem, there is one thing I find very interesting: those who live in condensed areas, on top of each other with large population densities think guns are not a good idea to be waving around all willy nilly. Those who live in wide open spaces where the population is sparse, well they think it IS a good idea. If I lived in west Texas, or Alaska, yeah, I'd have a gun. Here in Chicago, not on your life. The odds in my city are that that gun will be used against me in an altercation. No thanks.

And just because YOU may have firearms training, well good for you. I have an uncle who is just as rabid about this as you are. He went to a firing range a few times. So now he carries his handgun everywhere, thinking he's going to protect his family....THAT'S what I mean about a false sense of manhood and testosterone clouding judgement. As a military guy you know how often those skills need to be drilled in order to be effective. Even soldiers and cops get shot and killed. Often.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Gun nuts on 07/01/2013 10:10:37 MDT Print View

Have you ever noticed gun nuts can't spot a joke thread, but in their own minds, they are the most qualified to evaluate situations and use deadly force ?

It's sad.

We have all been stuck behind the NRA labeled truck. The poor driver can barely handle reacting to a red traffic light turning green. Any competent criminal will use the guys 5 second reaction time to nullify the gun issue with seconds to spare.

Edited by redmonk on 07/01/2013 10:15:39 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Nutjobs are the problem on 07/01/2013 11:26:18 MDT Print View

Everyone does realize that the OP was satire of the "dogs on trails" thread correct? Well I may as well throw my chips in too.

There is no shortage of "nutters" from both sides. It seems the U.S. has been hijacked by irrational extremists from the left and right; no one is willing to find areas of common ground or reasonableness much less respecting each other's differences.
If the Democrats really wanted to be helpful or successful, they would do well to drop "comprehensive" from their vocabulary. Comprehensive health care legislation. Comprehensive gun legislation. Comprehensive immigration legislation. They had an opportunity to create some meaningful legislation which would help reduce prohibited people (through due process under the law) from accessing guns but instead they tried to go for the whole enchilada and got nothing. Nothing new but the Dems are as surgical as a ball peen hammer.

By no means am I endorsing the GOP. They need to realize that none of the enumerated rights are limitless including the 1st Amendment which is considered by many to be the most sacred of all. The Supreme Court has held throughout its history that certain reasonable limitations may be imposed. Sorry NRA (of which I am a member) and special interest groups, the 2nd Amendment is not immune from this.

Also, keep the arguments reasonable. I'm opposed to bans on Assault Rifles (stop with the semantics, that is what they are called!), high cap magazine, etc. but I also understand that I won't be relocated to a ghetto or concentration camp if I can only carry 10 round magazines. There are perfectly intelligent and rational arguments to be made; fear mongering only cheapens the argument. Whoever from the NRA who stated that an AR15 is a hunting rifle should be pimp slapped into next week. That is transparent, agenda driven, and dishonest rubbish. I honestly don't care if you keep one for three gun shooting, self-defense from criminals (or any foil hat conspiracies that your family will be relocated into a FEMA camp), or all of the above. The Supreme Court has held that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right and along with that, "shall not be infringed."

Since you people caught me on a post coffee Monday.... here's some more off topic rant for you.

If the Republicans really wanted to be relevant, then they should stop presuming that they speak for the moral majority. You can't say that the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land on Monday and then say that the 14th amendment does not apply to all citizens on Tuesday. We are all either protected equally under the law or none of us are protected under the law. If the GOP was truly the poster child of conservatism and the Constitution, then they should have championed gay rights to marry.

The American people need to stop pointing their fingers at the politicians and special interest groups. We are fully to blame for the perpetual mess in DC; these sociopaths only have power because we gave it to them. Turn off Fox, NBC, CNN et al and look for an education not indoctrination. Stop voting party lines and vote for the candidate who represents you; a democrat from Texas may in fact be more conservative than a Republican from NY and vice versa.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Girly-Girl Man-Haters Club. on 07/01/2013 11:28:13 MDT Print View

"Penis envy? Seriously? That's what you come up with? Come on."

----Yes. It's painfully obvious that you have it...BAD. See your previous quote below (one of SEVERAL times you have basically said the exact same thing about gun-toting MEN in this thread.):


"This is why I made my testosterone comments; a gun is an obvious extension of your manhood."


----Wow. Not much I need to say here. You make my point very well on your own without much help from me. As Doug said earlier, "...are you a member of the Girly-Girl Man-Haters Club?" Were you traumatized by a man in some way?

I will re-post, in it's entirety, the article about hikers and guns that, obviously, none of the anti-gun people on here even bothered to read. A gun is a tool. Period.

http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/guns.htm

And for those of you too lazy to copy/paste, here is the actual article linked above:

FIREARMS
LAWS OF FIREARMS

1. If you carry a firearm, know how - and when - to use it.

The subject of guns on the trail is possibly THE most divisive discussion among hikers. It is a subject that is despised on most discussion lists, causing hot arguments, angry responses, and calls for banning the subject entirely. When discussing firearm carry on various lists, I have had questions answered and good points raised. However, I have also been accused of being naive, insecure, fearful, paranoid, stupid, and of having a small penis. I am, quite simply, astonished. It seems to be legitimate to discuss trail gear, and although I consider firearms to be trail gear, I find that there has been very little real discussion on the subject...

Interestingly, a poll on Yahoo's BackpackingLight group, "Do you carry a gun in the backcountry?", had these responses:

Choices (56 replies)


Votes


%
Yes, Always. 5 8.93%
Yes, When it is legal. 1 1.79%
Yes, When it is appropriate to the area. 17 30.36%
No, I have never felt the need. 13 23.21%
No, I don't like guns. 1 1.79%
No, I think the idea is stupid. 19 33.93%

So, 41% of responding hikers carry a firearm in the backcountry. Obviously, then, the subject deserves rational discussion. Unfortunately, there are irresponsible parties on both sides. One side main-lines adrenalin and the Second Amendment while declaring that a gun must ALWAYS be carried. The second side vehemently declares that you must NEVER carry a weapon of any kind, and to do so is simply stupid. It has gotten to the point where nobody wants to have the discussion because the zealots on both sides will instantly start a war and nobody - especially the newbies - will learn anything at all and in some cases be worse off than they were before. The messages that they need to hear - namely responsible gun ownership, training, and proper carry and use are never covered. In reality, with good training and proper education, a gun IS just any other piece of gear.

What, then, should you do? Should you carry a firearm in the backcountry? Well, despite the zealots, the right answer is: "Sometimes, you should, other times, you shouldn't." What follows is (I hope!) a rational discussion of the whys and the why nots. It is long, but after reading it, you will be able to make you OWN decision about what, when, and where, and if to carry. In this essay, bears are used as the common example of the large predator often encountered in the back country. I admit that this is rather unfair to bears, since there are several kinds of large predators in the back country - including bad people.

This document is broken down into four sections:

1. The Arguments FOR
2. The Arguments AGAINST
3. The RIGHT answer
4. Other considerations

THE ARGUMENTS FOR

"The Second Amendment guarantees my right to carry a firearm."
"A gun is the best tool if a hiking partner is being mauled."
"I used to carry pepper spray in bear country, but then realized that I didn't want to wait until the bear was within range of the spray. Distance has its privileges."
"I carry a gun everywhere I go."

"The Second Amendment guarantees my right to carry a firearm."

Really, this isn't what the discussion is about. For the purposes of this discussion, rights are irrelevant to the topic of whether or not you need or don't need a firearm in the backcountry. You will find, in all MY posts on the various lists that I never bring up the subject of rights, privileges, or freedoms - nor do I discuss the subject when someone else remarks on it. None of that has anything to do with the decision making process for or against the carry of a firearm in the backcountry.

While I believe in Second Amendment rights, they become a smoke screen that some people hide behind when the subject comes up.

"A gun is the best tool if a hiking partner is being mauled."

NO! Spray them both if you have pepper spray. If that fails, crack the bear with a hiking pole or stick to disengage him from the person being mauled. Don't try to shoot a bear in the process of mauling someone. You aren't that good. I'm not that good either. There are probably less then ten people on the planet who are.

"I used to carry pepper spray in bear country, but then realized that I didn't want to wait until the bear was within range of the spray. Distance has its privileges."

You should carry the spray. The big one. You shouldn't be shooting bears or other critters at any distance greater than 'danger close'. (Unless you intend to eat them...) Use the spray first, and the gun second. Every situation is different, but shooting a bear because he wants your Twinkies and shooting a bear because he wants to chew on your skull are two very different things. Remember: He lives there, and you are just visiting.

"I carry a gun everywhere I go."

I would agree that some people should carry a firearm everywhere, but that would be limited to law enforcement personnel and people with a lot of training. Simply having a gun isn't a guarantee of safety, and this blanket statement is no better than saying that you would never carry a firearm under any condition.

THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST

"A firearm isn't lightweight, and is against lightweight backpacking principles."
"Fear of wild animals comes more from the movie theaters and TV than from actual wilderness experiences."
"Firearms are almost worthless against large predators. A single shot will rarely stop them."
"Many gun accidents occur every year in which people are mistaken for animals and shot."
"Pepper Spray is a better option than a firearm."
"Knowing that there might be a paranoid gun carrying person backpacking in the same area that I am certainly doesn't give me piece of mind."
"A knife is better than a gun in a mauling situation."
"People carry guns because they personally feel inadequate."
"Weapons are just extra weight which you will dump after a few days."
"People who carry firearms carry more than just the gun - they carry an unreasonable burden of fear."
"I think taking guns on a backpacking trip is not only stupid, but useless, and often illegal."



"A firearm isn't lightweight, and is against lightweight backpacking principles."

Not all firearms are lightweight, but there are a few that are relatively light. In reality, weight has no bearing on the topic of weather or not to actually carry a firearm. It is, just like the Second Amendment argument; a smoke screen.

"Fear of wild animals comes more from the movie theaters and TV than from actual wilderness experiences."

Not fear, respect. In my 26 years or so of backcountry wandering, I have personally used a firearm, and personally seen a firearm used, to save human lives in a time of crisis.

If you break it down statistically, on the AT, you are eight times more likely to be killed by another human being than you are by a bear. Your primary concern, therefore, in a backcountry violent encounter, is humans. Police officers carry firearms, not through any burden of fear, but because they must be prepared for worst case scenarios.

"Firearms are almost worthless against large predators. A single shot will rarely stop them."

I have actually witnessed bears being brought down twice. One with a rifle, and the other with a handgun. Both bears died like any other shot game, and didn't remain animate for long. Shot placement is VERY important.

Before I get a box full of hate mail: I was not the one doing the shooting. I like bears.

Stopping power and shot placement are topics, I think, that are outside the scope of this document. Discussions of ballistics, etc., are rather involved topics. To be brief, skip the 10mm and .40 SW and go with .45, .44Mag, .454 Casul, or 12 Gauge and you will not go wrong. The different delivery systems for these calibers (read 'guns') is also really beyond the scope of this document, and there are excellent resources that you can learn from. I carry a Glock 21, or a .44 Colt Python, or a .454 Casul, or a American Arms single shot 12 break open. I can reload the 12 faster than most people can pump, which is a necessary skill when carrying that type of firearm.

"Many gun accidents occur every year in which people are mistaken for animals and shot."

If the accident argument makes sense to you, then you shouldn't carry matches because they might start a forest fire. There is no such thing as a 'gun accident', just as there is no such thing as a 'matches accident'. Only people have accidents.

For all the complaints that guns on the trail are unsafe, I can't recall any instance of one hiker shooting another by accident. I can recall instances of bears eating hikers, and I can recall instances of bears who wanted to eat hikers being dissuaded by various means - including guns. Ditto for bad people.

"Pepper Spray is a better option than a firearm."

I'd rather say that it is your second to last option - the last option being the firearm. Pepper Spray is NOT 100%. Despite that, I think that you should ALWAYS carry pepper spray - even when not in bear country.

"Knowing that there might be a paranoid gun carrying person backpacking in the same area that I am certainly doesn't give me piece of mind."

So I guess rangers, and other law enforcement personnel, are 'paranoid gun carrying people' that you worry about...

I don't understand why having a piece of equipment makes me paranoid or dangerous. Does my down vest mean that I'm paranoid of hypothermia, or does it mean that I'm properly prepared? "Ya'll better watch that boy. He's afraid 'o freezin' ta death. Us? Why we're wearin' cotton. When's the last time anybody froze to death? Why, it almost never happens!"

Think about two simple, unrelated statistics:

The vast majority of people who die in house fires die in houses where there are no smoke or fire detectors.

The vast majority of people who get mauled by big critters are carrying no equipment to defend against big critters.

Those that would argue that such occurrences are so rare that it isn't worth preparing against, must also argue that house fires are so rare, that only paranoid fire freaks would have smoke alarms.

"A knife is better than a gun in a mauling situation."

Possibly, but that is another whole discussion of a different area of skill. Blade types, sectional density, insertion points, and depth of entry are also complex topics and skills that take time to learn. Not to mention that knife combat against a large predator requires a level of mental preparedness that most people simply do not have.

"People carry guns because they personally feel inadequate."

If you feel adequate, then that's great. Simply feeling adequate, however, won't keep you from being eaten, mauled, raped, robbed, or murdered.

"Weapons are just extra weight which you will dump after a few days."

Not if you've already made the right decision.

"People who carry firearms carry more than just the gun - they carry an unreasonable burden of fear."

This is the 'Burden of Fear' argument that comes up from time to time. Sometimes it sounds quite rational. "A reasonable fear of the unknown is natural and healthy and keeps us on toes. An unreasonable fear of the unknown spoils our fun and can result in irrational thought and illogical behavior."

The 'Burden of Fear' argument, while alluring, doesn't prove out when thought out carefully. If the burden of fear argument were true, then those arguing for it would hike on a ridge top in a lightning storm - because really, what are the chances of being struck by lightening? The reality is, in that situation, very high.

When I travel in such areas, carrying something with which to fend them off actually alleviates any 'burden of fear'.

Thought out another way, I carry extra water in the desert, not because I fear dying of thirst, or have an unreasonable fear of thirst, but because it is prudent to do so.

> the ones I know who are sensitive to the > negative symbolism of firearms and the fear that > firearms generate in others create for themselves > reasonable-sounding but fallacious arguments regarding > the actual level of threat in their personal > environments.

We all have fire extinguishers and smoke alarms in our homes, not because we have created reasonable-sounding but fallacious arguments regarding the actual level of threat of fire in our homes, but because such items are prudent and have been shown to save lives.

"I think taking guns on a backpacking trip is not only stupid, but useless, and often illegal."

This is an argument that is often used, and covers three ideas:

Stupid to carry: It depends entirely on where you are. In some areas it is stupid NOT to take a gun. For instance, anywhere that you are likely to encounter a polar bear, you should have a weapon capable of killing one. Polar bears aren't especially aggressive creatures, mind you, but they are huge. They are also insatiably curious. Most polar bears don't know what a human is, and if one sees you he/she may decide to find out what you are. They can stalk you for many days over many miles. In the end they will kill you, not to eat you or out of meanness, but because they don't know what you are.

In parts of South America, and Africa, for instance, it would be stupid not to have a gun.

I am surprised that every time this subject comes up, people on both sides make blanket statements like "Carrying a gun backpacking is stupid.", or "I never go anywhere without mine." A gun is like any other piece of your gear. You don't take swimming trunks to Everest, and you don't take your arctic parka to Tahiti. Most of your gear has a reasonable application in some environment, but not in all environments. You carry gear that protects you from thirst, heat, cold, hunger, rain, snow, etc., because these are all threats that are commonly faced. Predation by another creature - human or not - while rare, does happen more often in some areas than others. You must do a reasonable risk assessment whenever you go out. To make such a blanket statement is ignorant at best and irresponsible at worst. I don't need a shotgun in my own back yard. I do need one in other places.

Useless to carry: This is simply an uninformed statement. Firearms have been useful in the back country since their invention.

Illegal to carry: You should be aware of all legalities regarding firearms in the place where you are traveling before making the decision to carry one.

THE RIGHT ANSWER
The right answer, by now, should be obvious, so let's ask the question again: Should YOU carry a firearm in the backcountry? You can clearly see that the answer is, "Sometimes." Knowing WHEN that 'sometimes' is, however, requires careful consideration. There is an often used quotation that, "It's better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it." You can't argue with that statement. The logic of this theorem is FLAWLESS. It is a statement that is true beyond the petty discussion of whether or not to carry a firearm in the backcountry.

It is a statement of absolute logic, however, that disregards limits of weight, sanity, and prudent choice. Using the theorem, one would be inclined to carry a MIG welder while backpacking, because it's certainly better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it...right?

Well, you certainly can't carry everything, and the answer is obviously no. Criteria have to be set on every object and every ounce of weight that are rational and sane. Unfortunately, we have all seen people who have thrown out rational sense and carry 80 pound packs for a nice weekend hike - which invariably turns into a nightmare... On the flip side, there are people who don't carry enough and wind up in trouble. In order not to make these mistakes, you have to make prudent decisions.

A gun should be considered in the category of 'safety equiptment', similar in function to a climbing helmet. While this is a document about firearms, let's leave that for a little while and talk broadly about safety equipment. When deciding which emergency gear to carry, you should rationally evaluate rationally the odds of meeting different sorts of emergencies on the trail - but that isn't the only consideration.

That question can only be answered on a hiker by hiker basis. Many people point out the statistical improbability of some occurrences. Risk management isn't just about the likelihood of an occurrence, it's also about the end result if the unlikely does happen. It's not likely that nuclear reactors will melt down, but if they do the results can be catastrophic, so measures are taken against that unlikely eventuality. You can't just 'rationally evaluate the odds', you also have to rationally evaluate the end effect if the odds do not fall in your favor. For instance, what are the chances that I will fall down while hiking? Very slim. I have never taken a bad fall and I've been hiking a long time, so why should I bring the climbing helmet?. If I am going hiking on nice level ground, I won't take the helmet. If I am going to hike treacherous mountain slopes, however, I will wear the helmet. Why? Because if I do fall, the fall is more likely to be severe - and I am more likely to bonk my head - in the difficult terrain. I've never needed it, but if I do land on my fool head, I will be glad to have my skull bucket.

Having said that, there is no piece of gear that can eliminate accidents. There are only pieces of gear that can help lessen the severity of accidents (climbing helmets, for one), and pieces of gear that can help you perform a self rescue (rope, first aid supplies, compass) if necessary.

When considering items to take with you, you have to establish a criteria for the selection of items. Usually this is broken into two groups:

1. What do I need to take with me?

2. What do I want to take with me?

Items that are on both lists are obviously more desirable than items on one list or the other.

There is another question, however, that is also important:

3. What if I do not take this item with me?

Let's use an obvious example: Water. In Southern Louisiana, I rarely have to carry more than 16 ounces of water. It's far easier to just drop the filter tube into any number of abundant water sources than to carry a lot of water. So, if I am traveling to Honey Island Swamp, and I ask myself, "What if I do not take water bottles with me?", the answer is, "I'll just have to drink out of the filter tube, but that's not a big deal because water is everywhere."

If, however, I am traveling to Arizona with the intention of hiking in the desert, and I ask myself, "What if I do not take water bottles with me?", the answer is, "I'll probably die."

Anytime I get the 'probably die' answer, I always take the item. I also usually take the item if the answer is, 'could get mangled'.

It seems to work every time. For the weapon example, let's not use guns - since so many people are opposed to them in an irrational way - let's use a nice sturdy ash pole. Six feet long, 1.5 inches wide, weighs about 20 ounces, and makes an excellent walking stick. Same scenario: Honey Island Swamp. "What if I do not take this heavy pole with me?"

"Won't have anything to discourage alligators. Could get mangled. Won't have anything to help me drag myself out of the muck. Could get drowned. Take the pole."

This isn't an unreasonable or paranoid answer. I have had to fend off a few swamp lizards (alligators to you Yankees). Nothing serious, mind you, but not something you want to do with a Leki either. Add to the equation that people vanish in this area on a frighteningly regular basis (supposedly by being eaten by 'gators), then the pole becomes prudent. Trying to drag yourself out of a muck hole with a pair of Leki's is likely to end in two broken poles and a major 'Holy $h1t' moment.

Change the scenario to Arizona: "What if I do not take this heavy pole with me?" "My load will be lighter, and I'll be able to carry a set of hiking poles that are better suited to the terrain."

What you need - and even what you want - will be dependent on the terrain, the weather, and the prevailing circumstances in the area. You wouldn't carry snowshoes in the rain forest just in case it snows, and you wouldn't carry Bermuda shorts in Antarctica in case you decided to go for a swim. You would, however, carry those things in places where snow or swimming were possible - sometimes even when such occurrences may not be likely.

Of course, there is another theorem that is also popular; that is the ultra-light theorem, which essentially says: "It's better to leave something behind, rather than have to carry it, if you aren't going to use it." This is another inarguable theorem - which, like the first, disregards limits of ability, sanity, and prudent choice. Unfortunately, I have seen people follow it to its unfortunate end by discarding prudent things. The fallacy of this theorem is affecting more and more people, and the number of people who aren't carrying enough gear is on the rise.

There have been stores on the lists of such people. I personally came across group of hikers who had no first aid kit at all. "We've been hiking for years and never needed one!" After I patched the bleeding gash on one fellows leg, I recommended that they should reconsider the importance of eight ounces worth of first aid. Sometimes ounces mean the difference between life and death - and those are the ounces that count.

Many years ago I came across a pair of hikers who were going to freeze to death in the night because they didn't have enough gear and hadn't lit a fire. When I came upon their camp in the late evening, it had begun to white-out. Since they were obviously VERY cold, I asked them why they hadn't lit a fire yet, since the little sheltered spot could be warmed easily. I got an irate five minute lecture about the evils of camp fires and the principles of LNT. At the end, I told them that I would be glad to take messages to their next of kin and make sure that the rangers would be able to find their frozen bodies when I made it back to civilization. After a short pause, they asked me if I could spare some matches. They didn't have any, because they didn't expect to need fire...

Just a little bit of prudence goes a long way. Sometimes, though, when traveling in unfamiliar territory, mistakes can be made based on accurate experience in other places. Risks must be assessed appropriately, and you should be properly informed about those risks before making decisions about what - and what not - to take. Some people continue to consideration of certain items because they have never needed, or don't like it, and this is potentially very foolish.

Take for example a fictional hiker in Florida to paint the metaphor... Let's say that I have only hiked in Florida. I've been hiking there - and only there - my whole life. I have never carried a sleeping bag. I have never needed a sleeping bag. In all my experience, people who are carrying sleeping bags are carrying a burden of fear that is totally unnecessary. They are preparing for something - freezing to death - that statistically NEVER happens in Florida. I am convinced - as are all of my friends - that carrying a sleeping bag is just plain stupid. I hate sleeping bags, and won't even own one.

Eventually, we decide to hike outside Florida. We decide to go somewhere really remote. The Northwest Territories. In February. As the helicopter pilot drops us and our gear off, he notices our light packs and thin clothing, and asks us if we've got sleeping bags that are warm enough. "Sleeping bags!? We've been hiking for years and years and in all our vast experience we've never needed sleeping bags before, why should we need them now!?"

Later...in camp... "So, where should we light the fire?" "Fire?" "Yeah, let's light a fire. I can't feel my fingers." "Ah, well, we could put it right here." "Great, let's find some fuel." "Ah, um, well, we haven't seen anything except rocks and ice all day..." "Rocks and ice? Come on guys, stop fooling around - you know I'm snow blind - just light the *&^%! fire." "Uh, maybe we should set up the tents..." "TENTS! Did I hear you say TENTS, heathen!? I only packed the tarps." "Tarps?" "Yeah, I've never needed walls before...and I've got lots of insect repellent if the bugs get bad."

An extreme example of risk management skewed by years of accurate experience...

So when I hear someone say that they won't carry something because they've never needed it, don't want it, and think that it's stupid, I just have to wonder what they will be thinking when they ARE faced with the situation where the DO need that item...

Of course, once the drunk hits you, it's too late to buckle your seat belt...

The converse is, of course, true as well. If we see someone hiking in Florida carrying their bomb-proof arctic tent and their -40 degree sleeping bag with the aluminumized vapor barrier, we will think that they are quite off their rocker when they declare, "I ALWAYS carry my sleeping bag. You never know when a bad storm will drop twelve inches of the white stuff..."

Of course, being over prepared isn't likely to kill you. Just make you miserable...

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/01/2013 12:09:59 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: www.theplacewithnoname.com on 07/01/2013 12:55:56 MDT Print View

Great article but there are solid arguments to be made for carrying smaller calibers like .40 and 9mm.

The lethality of the round has much to do with penetration (I probably shouldn't use that word when penis arguments are being made), width (there I go again), and cavitation. Nothing against .45ACP but I can carry 10 jacketed hp 9mm in my Glock26. If I really wanted to push the envelope, I could carry a 33rd magazine and I'm red necked enough to do it! I agree with the author that ballistics is a complicated topic and outside the scope of his article but just wanted to throw that out there.

I see you carry a 9mm as well. I'm of the opinion that carrying quality ammunition is more important than the quality of the sidearm.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Caliber. on 07/01/2013 13:28:16 MDT Print View

Ian...I totally agree, but don't rule out even a small caliber .22LR round. Reagan was shot with that and one killed Bobby Kennedy. Skill and placement. Skill and placement. And luck :)

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/01/2013 14:00:50 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Girly-Girl Man-Haters Club. on 07/01/2013 15:45:47 MDT Print View

Wow. Matthew, you really do have the reasoning and arguing prowess of a 7th grader.

You regurgitate old, worn out talking points from fanatical fringe groups that have long ago been debunked.

Because I'm a liberal from a big city you assume I'm a rabid gun control nut when in fact I support the 2nd amendment. ALL of it, including the part about the "well-regulated militia."

You assume that because I believe the cultural and social and innate desire to protect one's family with force or violence is strongly associated with testosterone and the male psyche I must be a man-hater. When in fact what it means is that I am one of those liberal college elites who study human behavior and why we do what we do. I can see how you'd get those confused.

Those are a ton of conclusions on your part, and all you are doing is furthering MY assumptions that you don't have the reasoning or critical thinking skills to think for yourself. And based on lots of your posts, I am now pretty convinced you really are a right wing, racist, misogynistic birther whack job.

And if you want to carry a gun, go for it. I honestly don't care. I still think you're paranoid, but I don't care.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Them be tears of joy! on 07/01/2013 16:03:06 MDT Print View

Chaff is back from the dead! Or so I can only assume since I don't have any historical perspective of what it was in its glory days.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Girly-Girl Man-Haters Club. on 07/01/2013 16:21:18 MDT Print View

"Wow. Matthew, you really do have the reasoning and arguing prowess of a 7th grader."

---Ow! that one hurts. LOL. I did not realize we were arguing, I thought we were discussing ideas, like adults.

"You regurgitate old, worn out talking points from fanatical fringe groups that have long ago been debunked."

---Uhhh...no, I think my argument was well thought out and the article I posted above was very impartial. Just because an idea is old, does not mean it is not valid.

"Because I'm a liberal from a big city you assume I'm a rabid gun control nut when in fact I support the 2nd amendment. ALL of it, including the part about the "well-regulated militia.""

---I said no such thing. Nothing like that was ever said by me, to you. Proof is to just scroll up and read. I made no assumptions about your geographical location at all. In fact, I did not bother to check where you were from until you actually said something to that effect.

"You assume that because I believe the cultural and social and innate desire to protect one's family with force or violence is strongly associated with testosterone and the male psyche I must be a man-hater. When in fact what it means is that I am one of those liberal college elites who study human behavior and why we do what we do. I can see how you'd get those confused."

---I believe it's YOU who are confused. I just hit the mark close to home, is all.

"Those are a ton of conclusions on your part, and all you are doing is furthering MY assumptions that you don't have the reasoning or critical thinking skills to think for yourself. And based on lots of your posts, I am now pretty convinced you really are a right wing, racist, misogynistic birther whack job."

---Keep the name calling up, it's just further proving my point that when someone on the left loses an argument, they try and attack the other person personally. I think you are just confused because I stuck to my beliefs and was not intimidated by your personal attacks and name calling. I did not fold or back down.

"And if you want to carry a gun, go for it. I honestly don't care. I still think you're paranoid, but I don't care."

---You obviously DO care or it would not get you so worked up.

“By the way, are you going to answer my question or not?

‘Were you traumatized by a man in some way?’

I think we all know the answer, but go ahead."


Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/01/2013 20:17:35 MDT.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
well now on 07/01/2013 18:06:16 MDT Print View

I didn't think it could go downhill from birtherism but penis envy is definitely the next circle.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Them be tears of joy! on 07/01/2013 18:28:00 MDT Print View

This has been a good sampling Ian, Actually is going rather calmly.

I'm so glad that Jennifer has jumped into the Chaff mosh pit. Now Kat won't be alone.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Them be tears of joy! on 07/01/2013 18:45:43 MDT Print View

Thanks Ken;)
But.....I want nothing to do with the name calling. We can do better but once we get to this point we all lose. We had a chance to discuss this in a way that we could have learned something- and I did learn a few things. Now everyone just wants to stay away from it. It is a shame, in my opinion, and a loss.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
+1 on 07/01/2013 19:03:09 MDT Print View

Hey, Kat :)

+1




M

PS-
I'm gonna' try and squeeze a pic of that Golite Gust with your pockets in here somehow. LOL

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
So this is what all the chaff is about? on 07/01/2013 20:13:35 MDT Print View

Yeah, I've avoided the chaff for a long time...I was honestly waiting for something about religion. But I guess dogs and guns are good enough. Oh yeah, and that whole Obama-is-a-foreigner bit. That's always fun. I thought the original post was funny.

But Matthew, the definition of an argument is the vibrant exchange of differing ideas. There is no negative connotation to it, unless you add it there yourself. So yes, I was trying to argue...except you aren't exchanging ideas, you are simply vomiting words that have no actual meaning when strung together.

Of course then you brought in the penis envy though. Between that, the birther stuff and the paranoid Obama-is-taking-our-guns-and-creating-a-one-world-government rant I just can't take anything you say seriously.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
More on 07/01/2013 20:23:17 MDT Print View

Can we stop adding fuel that is not conducive to anything good?
No one has to, of course, but this is already unpleasant enough and there is not just one person to blame.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Anger Issues. on 07/01/2013 20:57:26 MDT Print View

"But Matthew, the definition of an argument is the vibrant exchange of differing ideas. There is no negative connotation to it, unless you add it there yourself. So yes, I was trying to argue...except you aren't exchanging ideas, you are simply vomiting words that have no actual meaning when strung together."

---This is simply not true. I have added my opinions, facts and articles that further the topic. In the original post, the OPer stated:
"It's a puncturing tool. Like teeth of a wolf or cheetah, the proboscis of the mosquito, or the talon of the falcon....how is an unpleasant experience with a gun any different from that? Because I brought it there ?"
I actually posted an article that supported this theory of guns being a tool of a backpacker, like a tent or a hammock. What have YOU contributed other than vile, hateful names when you disagreed with me?

"Of course then you brought in the penis envy though."

---No, you did that yourself when you made the analogy between guns and manhood. I just pointed out the obvious. And, if you had not noticed my avatar, I often hike in a kilt. Do you honestly think if I were at all concerned about my "manhood" or lack there of, I would be secure enough to do that? As my argument states, these things (guns, kilts, first aid kits) are TOOLS. Nothing more, nothing less.

" Between that, the birther stuff and the paranoid Obama-is-taking-our-guns-and-creating-a-one-world-government rant I just can't take anything you say seriously."

---Never said I was a "birther" (another nice name you keep using), you did. A me me was posted that was said to be "racist". It was not. The me me alluded to Obama not being born in the US. I just pointed that fact out. As for the "one world government"...where did that come from? It was never mentioned at all in the entire thread. If you intend to lie in order to make your points, please have some basis in fact so it's a bit more believable.


M

PS-
Still waiting for the answer to my question above.

she


Now....how about we get this back ON TOPIC........does anyone think guns on trails while backpacking are tools, like a first aid kit or a sleeping mat or a pocket knife? If not, why?

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/01/2013 21:31:55 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Ugh! on 07/01/2013 23:55:35 MDT Print View

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2PtsSKE4mY

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Ugh! on 07/02/2013 06:10:26 MDT Print View

Mark you said it - UGH.. Kat, you are totally right...I got sucked into the chaff vortex!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Somebody help meeeeeee....................

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Me as I inocently wandered into this thread for the first time last night: on 07/02/2013 09:20:05 MDT Print View

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rqykAlYebQ

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Freedom on 07/02/2013 10:16:43 MDT Print View

OK, Mark...I guess we'll do it your way.

ME as I defend the Constitution in this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr_OpFxCx-A

M

PS--Will we PLEASE get back on topic, now?.........does anyone think guns on trails while backpacking are tools, like a first aid kit or a sleeping mat or a pocket knife? If not, why?

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
civility on 07/02/2013 10:17:08 MDT Print View

I'm not going to claim that discussions should never be personal, because that is not realistic. However, civility can exist within that space. One more example of the below, Matthew, and your posts here are going to vanish.


--

“By the way, are you going to answer my question or not?

‘Were you traumatized by a man in some way?’

I think we all know the answer, but go ahead."

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Jeez! on 07/02/2013 10:23:31 MDT Print View

"Will we PLEASE get back on topic, now?.........does anyone think guns on trails while backpacking are tools, like a first aid kit or a sleeping mat or a pocket knife? If not, why?"

This was a thread intended to be a funny rip-off of the dogs on trail thread. And it was until you took it seriously. (I'm not sure how you would.) So yes, please get back on topic and add some humor or stop posting.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Censorship. on 07/02/2013 11:11:03 MDT Print View

"I'm not going to claim that discussions should never be personal, because that is not realistic. However, civility can exist within that space. One more example of the below, Matthew, and your posts here are going to vanish."


--

“By the way, are you going to answer my question or not?

‘Were you traumatized by a man in some way?’

I think we all know the answer, but go ahead."



---Dave,
...that is very funny, considering the below question that was posed to me and the fact that I have been calling for civility the whole thread. I was the one called "a Teabilly, Birther, a right wing-racist-misogynistic-birther-whack-job,Glenn Beck fanatic, stupid Teapublican,John Wayne wannabe type, Rambo, uptight- homophobic- RACIST, paranoid Obama-is-taking-our-guns-and-creating-a-one-world-government conservative nutter."

How about threatening deletion of those in the thread that have been making those statements instead of trying to silence the one voice that has been consistently civil, even when being attacked? If moderation is used, please make it even and fair across the board.



Peter S (who has been very civil throughout) asked me:
"Matthew, I'll ask again : what exactly concerns you about people on the trail?

Have you had a traumatising experience?"

---I answered the question. No big deal. It was a good question that directly related to my position.

Randy,

""Will we PLEASE get back on topic, now?.........does anyone think guns on trails while backpacking are tools, like a first aid kit or a sleeping mat or a pocket knife? If not, why?"

This was a thread intended to be a funny rip-off of the dogs on trail thread. And it was until you took it seriously. (I'm not sure how you would.) So yes, please get back on topic and add some humor or stop posting."

---I know it was. The humor was not lost on me at all, but the main topic was are guns a tool or not. By the way, I have tried to lighten the thread several times and keep getting attacked. See the below post I made when the "racism" accusation reared it's ugly head:

"Good one, Ken. Maybe we should all lighten up.

Black White Supremacist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exNWAvlNYdM

M"

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 13:32:45 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 11:13:28 MDT Print View

I personally like dogs with guns on the trail who carry the 10 essentials as long as they don't use toilet paper and I don't have to see Craig mount one.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 11:16:23 MDT Print View

"and I don't have to see Craig mount one."

Meh, the mounting isn't all that spectacular. It's the dismount that you'll never forget....

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 11:18:21 MDT Print View

My dog is actually very good at using ground cover, pine needles, soft grass, etc to wipe his bottom. He needs no toilet paper at all.

Scoot

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 11:20:35 MDT Print View

Holy crap (literally)! Did Chuck receive a celebrity makeover?

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 11:28:18 MDT Print View

He likes to doll it up when posing for certain pics.
Or he was so frightened by seeing a gun on the trail that he lost all his fur and about 50 pounds.

Erik Dietz
(erikdtz)

Locale: Los Angeles
Safe vs. Unsafe on 07/02/2013 11:30:20 MDT Print View

These are just my thoughts:

1. If I was commonly hiking in areas that I thought were unsafe (high chance of pot farms near by) and I was legally able to carry a firearm AND felt competent in my ability to use it then I would probably carry. Especially if I was hiking solo or with somebody (i.e. a wife/girlfriend, kids, etc) where I felt responsible for their safety and protection. However since I do most of my hiking with a buddy and in the Sierras, I don't feel the need.

2. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with somebody carrying a firearm while hiking. What makes it a little sketchy (for me) is not knowing that persons skill level or intent. I came across a group of guys who were fishing in the Sespe River last summer and they were all carrying handguns and big knives. At first I was a little on guard, especially since I was with my girlfriend and she was sunbathing, but they turned out to be nice enough and it was no big deal. However, if their intent wasn't friendly then there wouldn't be much I could do. That's the part that makes me uncomfortable.

Erik

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 11:30:57 MDT Print View

Well at least I have a new wiping technique to try out the next time I have to drop a deuce in the back 40.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Hmmmm? on 07/02/2013 11:31:19 MDT Print View

"and I don't have to see Craig mount one."

Meh, the mounting isn't all that spectacular. It's the dismount that you'll never forget...."

Depends on the dog being mounted, I guess.........

devil dog


And while we are talking dogs, my son sent me this (he's missing his dog back here in the states)---WARNING...only watch with tissues:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_cQ2vqjW1I&list=UUG6yM3tzyRBZxkyS3cKM-DQ

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 12:21:21 MDT.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
fairness on 07/02/2013 14:12:29 MDT Print View

A certain amount of name-calling is going to happen in chaff. I draw the line at the inneudo of rape/assault/trauma and generally blatant misogyny.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Weak. Just making excuses. on 07/02/2013 14:21:57 MDT Print View

"A certain amount of name-calling is going to happen in chaff. I draw the line at the inneudo of rape/assault/trauma and generally blatant misogyny."

---Then you should have drawn the line when the same question was directed at me earlier. What about MISANDRY? Is THAT allowed?
The names I was called go way beyond the realm of common conversation and well into slander and character assassination.
M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 16:48:58 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
jobbery. on 07/02/2013 14:46:35 MDT Print View

Matthew Perry just can't be stopped.

He'll teabag and nutjob and new world order forever.

I'm just glad his proud 'merican son is protecting our ability to talk nonsense on a backpacking forum. Well done! If he weren't in them there Afganistan, this whole forum would probably get shut down by the Taliban, Obamacare, Socialists/Fascists, the United Nations, global vaccination hoax, or some durn thing. Whooorah or hooooray or whatever it is.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
(sigh) on 07/02/2013 15:15:26 MDT Print View

Thank you, Dave T, for proving my point so eloquently.


M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 15:19:09 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 15:30:05 MDT Print View

And now we wait for the moderator to mount the offending gun owner and establish alpha dominance.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: jobbery. on 07/02/2013 17:16:12 MDT Print View

"I'm just glad his proud 'merican son is protecting our ability to talk nonsense on a backpacking forum. Well done! If he weren't in them there Afganistan, this whole forum would probably get shut down by the Taliban, Obamacare, Socialists/Fascists, the United Nations, global vaccination hoax, or some durn thing. Whooorah or hooooray or whatever it is."

Dave T. that was just such a wonderful thing to say. I really hope you have a nice day and that all your dreams come true.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
what to doo on 07/02/2013 17:57:43 MDT Print View

"My dog is actually very good at using ground cover, pine needles, soft grass, etc to wipe his bottom. He needs no toilet paper at all."

That is all well and good until the dog decides my sleeping pad looks softer than the decomposed granite everywhere else at the
campsite. Not good, especially at a dry camp.bo rocks

Edited by oware on 07/02/2013 18:05:28 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: jobbery. on 07/02/2013 19:21:41 MDT Print View

That young men and women venture daily beyond the confines of their FOB often not knowing if this is the day they get shot in an attack or blown up by an IED or, just as bad, have to watch it happen to one or some of their friends, is exceptionally courageous. Regardless of your personal feelings on whether or not we belong in Afghanistan, using one of these deployed, in this case Marines, to mock his father and, inadvertently or not, mocking the servicemember as well, is repugnant. And this in a thread that's seen more than its share of repugnant posts from both sides of the 'gun in the woods' "debate."

For a group of highly educated people, a bunch of you sure do come off as pretty damned ignorant sometimes.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: jobbery. on 07/02/2013 20:15:40 MDT Print View

Well said Doug.

Dave T., I really hope that you'll remove or modify your response. If you don't understand why your comment is unbelievably low class then that is unfortunate but please understand that it is.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
props r' us on 07/02/2013 20:19:29 MDT Print View

he was the first to use him as a (standard) prop in his argument, so i merely flipped it in a wholly, and i mean wholly, absurd manner. i'm extremely late to the repugnant game (drive forth by m. perry), and a minor offender, if at all.

(unless you are one of those people that simply can't abide by anyone saying anything about "the troops" unless it's 100% unquestioning support, and then you will interpret everything, however absurd, in whatever way you wish.)

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Rude. on 07/02/2013 20:31:20 MDT Print View

"he was the first to use him as a (standard) prop in his argument"

---DaveT...someone merely commented that they hoped he was well and I, being a proud dad, posted some pics of him and said that he was doing well and thanked the person for asking. He was not used as a "prop". That said, I don't feel you have to take anything down. I have a thick enough skin it will just slide off. If that is how you feel, so be it. Like I said, just proves my point.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 20:50:01 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: props r' us on 07/02/2013 20:33:31 MDT Print View

I'm happy that the moderators give this forum a pretty long leash and that there are opportunities in Chaff for people to have these cathartic events. There were several comments made which were in my opinion out of line and by no means am I trying to paint myself as any kind of an angel. I sent PMs to others and I probably should have done the same with you instead of responding on this thread.

I'm not defending Matthew but I am defending his son. You are (presumably) a grown man so feel free to do what you feel you need to do but I'm respectfully asking you to keep his son off of this thread.

Take care either way.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
I don't like chaff anymore... on 07/02/2013 20:51:59 MDT Print View

At first I thought it was funny. The OP was actually quite hilarious.

I tried to participate. I tried to be witty. I'm sure I offended people, but oh well...I dish I out and I can take it.

But yes, this got really mean and ugly and I don't want to play anymore. Back to the boring gear threads. Where has Max been? He needs to step in something again really soon....that was always fun.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Which water treatment should I take on the JMT? on 07/02/2013 20:55:59 MDT Print View

Which is the most convenient: aqua Mira or the sawyer squeeze? I'm torn.....

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
water on 07/02/2013 21:10:45 MDT Print View

For years it was Aquamira drops for me, but that Squeeze gravity filter I just made is sooooo convenient and fast.

M

PS--Jennifer...what do you use for your dog's bowls? I'm using Orikasso. Tried Cuben ones made by Zimmerbuilt, but they were too hard to clean and blew away when empty.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 21:13:19 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
prop it up. on 07/02/2013 21:14:31 MDT Print View

> He's doing well in Afghanistan... and is one of the reasons we are all able to have these nice "discussions".


This is the standard prop I mean ("he's defending your right to say what you want!"). I flipped in an absurd manner. Read what I wrote again. And I'd ask you to consider your terrible words spoken to others before finding hurt to yourself.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
(just shaking my head in disbelief) on 07/02/2013 21:21:52 MDT Print View

"> He's doing well in Afghanistan... and is one of the reasons we are all able to have these nice "discussions".


This is the standard prop I mean ("he's defending your right to say what you want!"). I flipped in an absurd manner. Read what I wrote again. And I'd ask you to consider your terrible words spoken to others before finding hurt to yourself."

---Again...what I said was all TRUE. He IS one of the reasons we are all free to speak as we choose. Sadly, even you, DaveT. If not for his kind, we'd all be speaking Russian or German or...well, you get my point. I'm not exactly sure why you are so angry...it's just making you look silly at this point.

Now...drops or squeeze, DaveT? LOL


Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/02/2013 21:25:46 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
angry? on 07/02/2013 21:29:35 MDT Print View

angry? i just took some standard toss-off line of yours and made a silly comment using all your conspiracy theory stuff. not angry. silly. absurd.

i'd suggest you look back at all your posts railing on jennifer, etc. if you want to see angry, spiteful, etc.

anyway, judging from your last 10 pages of this (and tons more on other threads over the last few years), you won't let it go, so i'll see you later.


p.s. i didn't realize the germans and russians were in afghanistan. must brush up on history. (i suppose if he was in grenada you'd still be saying that "speaking german!" line.... ah, another toss-off.)

Edited by DaveT on 07/02/2013 21:34:30 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/02/2013 23:21:18 MDT Print View

"My dog is actually very good at using ground cover, pine needles, soft grass, etc to wipe his bottom. He needs no toilet paper at all."

jennifer,

I've always wanted to try this method - dogs seem to enjoy it so much! However, have you ever noticed how they always have a guilty look while doing it? Unfortunately I'm still looking for the ideal combo of privacy and a nice green lawn.

Pretty sure this is NOT what Mike Clelland means by the "smear technique" to be used above the tree-line. Makes me wince to think about Sierra granite, let alone slick rock. :-o

Edited by millonas on 07/02/2013 23:31:59 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: fairness on 07/02/2013 23:25:06 MDT Print View

"A certain amount of name-calling is going to happen in chaff. I draw the line at the inneudo of rape/assault/trauma and generally blatant misogyny."

I know it is probably too much to ask, but any chance we could also get a ban on the ironically and/or satirically challenged? Or else a set of ironic and satirical smileys to use. ;-)

Or perhaps a "time-out" mosh pit "forum" to ban certain people to for a while so they can be abusive to each other in private. Get a room guys!

Edited by millonas on 07/02/2013 23:44:54 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Time-Out on 07/03/2013 00:22:24 MDT Print View

Mark,
How much would a "Time Outer MLife" membership cost...I might consider it :)

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/03/2013 13:46:47 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/03/2013 13:53:07 MDT Print View

When I see people with guns on the trail, I just shoot them.

I shoot mountain bikers as well.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
guns on the trail on 07/03/2013 14:58:51 MDT Print View

"When I see people with guns on the trail, I just shoot them.

I shoot mountain bikers as well."

---You see, from my "quasi-Libertarian/Conservative" perspective, you should be aiming for the RANGERS, instead, there, Davey. :)

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/03/2013 14:59:43 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: guns on the trail on 07/03/2013 17:43:18 MDT Print View

Matthew said "---You see, from my "quasi-Libertarian/Conservative" perspective, you should be aiming for the RANGERS, instead, there, Davey. :)"

I guess you are trying to make a joke but really?

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2018496296_rainierrescue22m.html

http://www.odmp.org/officer/21076-park-ranger-margaret-a-anderson

http://www.odmp.org/officer/16353-park-ranger-kristopher-william-eggle

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Tastes Poor..... on 07/03/2013 18:04:49 MDT Print View

"Matthew said "---You see, from my "quasi-Libertarian/Conservative" perspective, you should be aiming for the RANGERS, instead, there, Davey. :)"

I guess you are trying to make a joke but really?

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2018496296_rainierrescue22m.html

http://www.odmp.org/officer/21076-park-ranger-margaret-a-anderson

http://www.odmp.org/officer/16353-park-ranger-kristopher-william-eggle"


----Oh, for Pete's sake.....
It's blatantly obvious that Davey and I were BOTH joking.
I guess my joke should be considered in "poor taste", but joking about shooting mountain bikers and people with guns on the trail is OK? Really? We gonna' go there with the double standards....? C'mon, Ian...if we're all that touchy, we won't be able to say ANYTHING to each other on here.


Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/03/2013 18:12:24 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Tastes Poor..... on 07/03/2013 18:16:16 MDT Print View

Clearly the problem here is that I don't have a sense of humor.

Happy 4th everyone.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Tastes Poor..... on 07/04/2013 16:24:36 MDT Print View

"Clearly the problem here is that I don't have a sense of humor"

Now that's funny.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: angry? on 07/07/2013 12:00:11 MDT Print View

ahhhhhh................


and the sillyness continues....


carry on

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Feeling Squeezed. on 07/07/2013 14:22:39 MDT Print View

Ken....Sawyer Squeeze or Aquamira drops? Seriously.

Matt

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Feeling Squeezed. on 07/08/2013 08:41:41 MDT Print View

Neither....in line for me

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Healthy Debate. on 07/08/2013 10:15:12 MDT Print View

(sigh)...I should have guessed. :)

Matt

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Healthy Debate. on 07/08/2013 13:57:43 MDT Print View

Funny thing is, I've done AM drops and steripen and find I did not hydrate as well while hiking

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Healthy Debate. on 07/08/2013 13:59:14 MDT Print View

The Sawyer Squeeze is interesting

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/08/2013 17:36:31 MDT Print View

Just wanted to say thanks again to whoever put chaff in its own quarantined area:). All that needs to happen now is to make it impossible to post memes or YouTube links in chaff threads:).

Here in NZ I occasionally see a hunter with a rifle when out hiking. I stay out of the bush during the roar, but most of the time I don't worry about it. Tragically most deaths involve hunters shooting their mates, because they didn't properly identify their target. However, a hiker was shot in a camp site a few years back, by a"hunter" lamping for deer from his vehicle.

I was a keen hunter of rabbits with my air rifle, when I lived in the UK (I needed to get within 60 feet and ate everyone of them.) But I don't currently hunt.

Don't really have anything to say on the gun debate, except that if everyone kept them locked when they aren't using them, that would be great. However, I suspect that even on this issue there will not be complete agreement.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 17:54:31 MDT Print View

I am a newbie here on this site, but not new to backpacking. I think a little reality check is in order here. And I do realize the original intent of this thread was humorous but developed into something entirely different. I thought that one thing had been left out, and that was the input of someone such as myself. I'm in my 50's, female and a college graduate. What to do when encountering guns on trails? Nothing in my opinion. A gun is a tool like a hammer, you can choose to use one or not. I'm a person who carries (CCW) for several good reasons. I was unfortunately, assaulted and raped by a man, in what I always thought was a remote relatively safe place. Sufficient to say it was in the Rockies in the 1980's when I was a much younger woman. Now I currently live in an area our government has given to Mexico, our border, and areas I have hiked and ridden my horses in for 40 years are taken over by the drug cartels even though it's America, and heck yes I'm armed 24/7. I hike every day. And I am extensively and continually training with various firearms and was before the assault, but my attacker made sure I was disarmed before the attack. So now I carry 24/7 except for entering government buildings. And for those of you who accuse those of us who are armed of being paranoid, well my take on guns is the same as wearing a helmet, you don't really need one till you REALLY need one, and those who refuse to wear helmets either haven't had enough accidents to know better and those who say guns are for paranoid people obviously have never been assaulted or raped. I'm not paranoid, I'm experienced and I will never allow another human being to assault me again.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Trolls on 07/08/2013 18:40:04 MDT Print View

'And I do realize the original intent of this thread was humorous but developed into something entirely different."

Actually it didn't - it was hijacked by a few people, and those handful of people persisted. It is often the same handful that do it over and over again on the different threads. And some of those people took fairly simple polite comments, even from some of the known nicest people on here, and immediately twisted them around into fightin' words.

There is a word for it - Troll. It is something about certain personalities and the web that seems universal, but I think most bonifide trolls don't think of themselves as troll as all. But they are.

Anyway, the OP, and most of the participants, even after it was hijacked, were taking it humorously. The very title of the thread is a joke - of course almost no one DOES anything. In addition almost no one actually CAREs if you carry a gun, so get over it. Some of us might think is unnecessary, but I also think taking a ipad or kindle is even more unnecessary. If I run into Hannibal Lecter on the trail, or have a sudden uncontrolled desire to play angry birds, then I will feel like a fool.

Also I (and am guessing many others on here) don't give a damn about your politics, or those of the "other" side. If you guys want to just keep pissing on each other's shoes I think maybe a separate, clearly labeled thread might be more useful. Or maybe a more politics-related site altogether.

Of course it IS chaff so feel free. The main issue to my mind is that the trolls are not only intentionally offensive a lot of the time, but are terribly predictable and boring, and hence aren't that entertaining. It is kind of a pain to look through all their screeds to find entertaining stuff. Its an issue of efficiency.

Edited by millonas on 07/08/2013 18:52:36 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Trolls on 07/08/2013 18:50:51 MDT Print View

Thanks Mark.

Why always with the politics?

Seems like you can't be pro gun and not bring politics into every freaking discussion.

Edit: Further thought on the discussions here in the years past I will retract the pro gun and politics comment. Both sides are guilty of that. But they always start it ;)

Edited by kthompson on 07/08/2013 19:59:43 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Trolls on 07/08/2013 18:59:07 MDT Print View

"Seems like you can't be pro gun and not bring politics into every freaking discussion."

Both sides are guilty.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 19:01:50 MDT Print View

@Desert Dweller
I am sorry this happened to you.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 19:15:46 MDT Print View

Yes, I'd like to second that sentiment. I think that was terrible, and to be honest I think I would feel exactly the way you do if something a fraction that bad had happened to me. I think it is reasonable for you to carry, especially if it allows you to get out there with less trepidation.

At this point I don't think I would have any problem with anyone carrying on the trail, especially not you.

I think it is in most cases unnecessary, and an argument can be made that, given the low probability of actually needing a gun, that with increasing numbers at some point the probability of a drunk, angry or otherwise messed up camper injuring me or someone else with a gun, instead of just screaming at me or something, becomes large enough to outweigh the possible need. Hence the argument for no guns in crowded areas like National Parks, movie theaters, or the inner city for that matter.

Anyway, in the view of the vast majority it is a balance thing, not black and white. But the fringe on both side always makes it about the people on the other side, and it isn't about debating the balance point for them. That point of view is boring and guaranteed fruitless - but more importantly dilutes the all important entertaining satirical and ironic posts. ;-)

Edited by millonas on 07/08/2013 19:27:53 MDT.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 19:43:52 MDT Print View

@ Dessert Dweller, thank you for your input, I'm impressed with your courage to tell your story.

And welcome to the site :-)

Everybody can understand why you carry a gun.

But please don't compare a gun to a hammer.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Guns on trails on 07/08/2013 20:52:43 MDT Print View

Desert Dweller,

It's always sad to read stories like yours but thanks for having the courage to share it.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
guns etc., on 07/08/2013 21:13:45 MDT Print View

Thank you, I appreciate your understanding. I'm lucky, I survived and that scum that attacked me died of a massive heart attack a year later. Turned out he had done the same thing to six other women in the area, but was a friend of the local judge who would not prosecute him, even after I made a statement. The other girls/women were too terrified to make statements. Small mountain town politics....:-P
In my opinion a gun is very much like a hammer or any other tool, just as capable in the hands of humans of building beautiful things, and destroying them. Otherwise they both are just a paperweight. I am a hunter and feed my family with what I hunt. My children were fed well because of this tool I choose to use. It was not so long ago that all our ancestors used tools like that to feed families on a regular basis.

I detest politics, but know everyone is entitled to his own stance. In my youth, politics was not something one brought up like folks do now. It dirties the air, provokes antagonism and brings a lowering of energy I just don't like, JMHO.

I like to believe that when our country was being founded that the organizers were excited and happy with their chosen places in history and that political debates and discussions were both energizing and uplifting to those around them. It's just not that way now.

There is way too much fun to be had doing and talking about other more uplifting and growth promoting subjects like being outdoors and enjoying the company of like minded people. :-)
I never let what happened to me stop me from doing what I love, and that is being outdoors.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: guns etc., on 07/09/2013 00:10:14 MDT Print View

DD, don't get me wrong, i understand where you're coming from (as much as it's possible), but i just think it's two very different things, when using a gun/rifle for hunting, and carrying a concealed weapon for protection against human scumbags. It should be two different discussions, well IMO anyway. - But i think it's probably too late to make that digression in this thread ;-).

IMO, discussing politics is vital, but it needs to be done right! I agree, that way, way too often, it provokes antagonism, but that's just an excuse to give up the GOOD discussions.

Ignorance is not the way, and the Wild West neither (but i understand the need to act accordingly to the current situation).

DD wrote:

"Turned out he had done the same thing to six other women in the area, but was a friend of the local judge who would not prosecute him, even after I made a statement. The other girls/women were too terrified to make statements. Small mountain town politics....:-P"

That's just awful...

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 08:21:33 MDT Print View

" Both sides are guilty of that. But they always start it ;)"

You may have a more general point there, but in this thread it certainly was clearly started by one person. 14 straight humorous posts, followed suddenly with a more or less off topic (even leaving aside the humorous part) containing a long fairly nasty political screed, followed by 7 or so humorous polite posts including 1 reply to the "usual suspect" to the effect that hey, the OP was just a humorous one, and two ones very mildly mocking the tone of the "usual suspect's" post - all pretty tame. Then bang - "usual suspect" is posting billboard size signs of Stalin and Hitler. Yeah, the very definition of a troll.

I have always found that for people who do this, a lot, there is no trigger threshold for escalation - just acknowledging the posts is usually enough for the trolls to escalate. For these people their "message" is really just their medium and their medium/tone is there actual message. So the best thing is to just ignore them, hard as that may be.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 09:50:19 MDT Print View

" So the best thing is to just ignore them, hard as that may be."

Yeah, but you just got this going again right after it had taken a smoother direction.

In general I think the frustration and excesses come as a reaction to being silenced, or "shushed". And the consensus anymore seems to be that if you are right ( and you are so sure that you are..) , then it's ok to try and silence and bully the opposing view.
I see it daily, even at Universities and places that used be open to the exchange of ideas. It seems like now we have "it" figured out, be it gender, race, sexuality, economics etc, and so we don't need ( or allow) any further discussion. To me that comes at a cost.
The door should never be shut.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 11:14:21 MDT Print View

And......

The sillynes.....


It continues

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Hammers on trails on 07/09/2013 11:41:26 MDT Print View

"But please don't compare a gun to a hammer."


---

"According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.... [For instance, i]n 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605...."

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/01/03/FBI-More-People-Killed-With-Hammers-and-Clubs-Each-Year-Than-With-Rifles


Yes I realize this is breitbart, so take with a grain of Himalayan salt.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Trolls on 07/09/2013 12:34:00 MDT Print View

Ken:
"And......

The sillynes.....


It continues
"


I don't understand this. I think the last couple of pages, ( trying to remember without going back) have been meaningful posts.
I don't see anything silly about a controversial subject that gets people emotional. At least some of the posters are attempting to have a civil conversation, which is not easy amongst innuendos and put downs.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Hammers on trails on 07/09/2013 18:04:30 MDT Print View

Frankly, I'm not sure why we keep talking about guns and dogs...lets be honest: what we really need to worry about are falling vending machines.

http://www.oddee.com/item_98002.aspx

Sean Heenan
(roadster1) - M

Locale: Southeast mountains
Re: Re: Hammers on trails on 07/09/2013 18:23:12 MDT Print View

Guns, dogs, hammers, drunks, vending machines, and of course driving to the trailhead, what ever happened to lions and tigers and bears, oh my!!! Must be a vast right wing conspiracy or those damn nanny state socialists!!!

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Discussion ethics on 07/09/2013 18:23:22 MDT Print View

When general I think the frustration and excesses comes as a reaction to being silenced, or "shushed.". And the consensus anymore seems to be that if you are right ( and you are so sure that you are..) , then it's ok to try and silence and bully the opposing view.
I see it daily, even at Universities and places that used be open to the exchange of ideas. It seems like now we have "it" figured out, be it gender, race, sexuality, economics etc, and so we don't need ( or allow) any further discussion. To me that comes at a cost.
The door should never be shut."

+1

Hard to live up to, but rewarding when you've managed to. To be had with camels on the side.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Discussion ethics on 07/09/2013 18:30:13 MDT Print View

"Hard to live up to, but rewarding when you've managed to. To be had with camels on the side."

Yes. But it is something to shoot for.
There is an accidental pun there.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Discussion ethics on 07/10/2013 17:36:37 MDT Print View

Kat, I have my beliefs and you have yours. Not a problem.


My beliefs are what I think is right...not that your beliefs are wrong. Sorry I bummed you out, but my hatred towards the GOP, Teaparty etc. are not unfounded and based mainly on facts that the party is being overrun by delusional, paranoid lunatics that are out of touch with this country.

I asked Matthew to post information and he did not. Just juvenile memme's. AND please do not demonize me as the "sole" antagonist...EVERYONE on this site, one time or another has been a bit heated in a discussion.....no?????

Glass houses with rocks can be problems

Edited by kennyhel77 on 07/10/2013 17:37:36 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Discussion ethics on 07/10/2013 17:40:20 MDT Print View

and here is one to stoke the fires!lunatic

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 07/10/2013 18:24:27 MDT Print View

Edited:

While I am leaving my first reply below, unedited, I guess I am just disappointed that the people that are able to discuss this in a respectful way ( and I have learned a lot from a number of them, on all sides of the more difficult issues) tend to just leave once it gets this ugly and I think we all lose when that happens. So yes, I am upset when some foul the water enough that the real conversation is lost.








Ken, I don't think you even know where I stand on most issues, since i do not follow either party line, but maybe you are not interested in finding common ground?
You stoke the fire and have the right to do so but in my opinion the way you have expressed yourself here, and your attitude towards about half of your fellow citizens....are part of the problem that this country is currently having.
There are people on BPL and elsewhere that share some/ most of your beliefs and they try to have a respectful and civil conversation; I think you are hurting your own cause.

I think I am done here; no promises though.

Edited by Kat_P on 07/10/2013 18:42:57 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:03:41 MDT Print View

Fair enough and I agree with some of what you wrote....however, MY rights and beliefs are the ones that are being trampled.

As a woman, you should be consider your right to chose.
As a person that supports "free Thoughts" ie legalization of drugs, who can marry who...tc. then maybe YOU need to reevaluate your stance. It is not the GOP that wants to step into the 21st Century but the Dems.

Bring it on Conservatives....let's go toe to toe. YOUR beliefs are outdated.

And no Kat, I don't believe that you have the same beliefs. I do know you (somewhat) and YOU are a wonderful person that I admire. I just have my beliefs, and they are NOT crazy like Teabillies

Edited by kennyhel77 on 07/10/2013 19:06:05 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:07:22 MDT Print View

So tell me what my beliefs are; don't tie me to a party though, because that will not work with me. What do you think I believe? Specific issues, please.


"As a woman you should consider your right to choose"
Please explain what you are getting at here.

Edited by Kat_P on 07/10/2013 19:08:49 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:12:44 MDT Print View

Ken H.,

I don't like the GOP either but what's your point?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:36:17 MDT Print View

Kat, you stated some of them prior....go back and READ! I just get suprised that anyone that is not white and/or not middle class nor a male would vote for a party that wants to take away our righst or any of us hold dear. (do I need to copy and paste what you wrote when you answered to Craig??)
.
And NO You did NOT offer an opinion on reproductive rights which I believe you have your own thoughts.

And yes Kat, some of what you wrote sounds like a Libertarian (which I DESPISE). And....sorry to say that has it's own traps....think it out.

Is that "clean" enough debate for you? Curious....not picking a fight, just seems that now YOU have stepped it up DUE to YOUR beliefs. I bet we are more close in thought than you think.....but YOU are now jumping to conclusions.

Again, DO NOT put me as someone that instigates and walks away.....I AM HERE. Bad Form

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:39:03 MDT Print View

Ian, they both suck. Both truth be told, I will side with a party that try and help me...which is about .....00000 of the time..

But it is better than a party that wants to make me live in the 1950's, go to war when ever anyone breaths on us, nor a govt. that wants to regress our country.

I do know your irony....nice try....keep going on

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:41:36 MDT Print View

and I am having problems with my computer ie typing so please, excuse my typing....My computer is dying.

Sorry Kat

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 19:49:37 MDT Print View

Ken,
I don't think I am the one to jump to conclusions.
Maybe this will help: I am not a US citizen, so I don't get to vote. That also means that I don't have to tow a party line, or chose a party based on one issue.
In this thread I have expresses that I support the second amendment....so you warn me that being a woman I should consider my reproductive rights. To me that says that you are assuming that I vote/ support republican and should reconsider.
Unfortunately with a lot of people you can do that, see where they stand on one issue and then go down the line and pretty much know where they stand on everything else. Not with me, again, partly because I do not vote and don't have to espouse one of the two parties. Partly because I am not consistent and I struggle with that.
I share some beliefs with Libertarians, true, but not across the board. I believe in a safety net, for example. I believe a woman should have a right to choose but I don't need to call it a clump of cells; I believe it is a life and the decision is a grave one.

You should just ask me where I stand on any particular issue and I will answer as best can.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 20:12:38 MDT Print View

"Partly because I am not consistent and I struggle with that."

To put it in perspective, an observation often attributed to Einstein, probably incorrectly: "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds".

So relax, Kat. You're in good company. ;0)

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Boxing on 07/10/2013 20:15:35 MDT Print View

Things change. People change because of things change. I have no desire to stay the same person as i was 10 years ago. And i have no desire to be the same person i am now, when 10 years more has passed.

Don't box people, it's boring.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Boxing on 07/10/2013 20:18:26 MDT Print View

The only constant is change.

I embrace that fully, except for when I don't.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re on 07/10/2013 20:19:00 MDT Print View

Kat, I will answer you post tomorrow. I have to awake to the working week tomorrow at 4:30 tomorrow. Give me time to digest and read your comment again. Thanks for taking the time to reply

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Address the issue on 07/10/2013 21:42:13 MDT Print View

My apologies for bring curt earlier.

Ken H., I mean no disrespect but simply saying the GOP sucks, paraphrased of course, really isn't a meaningful statement to launch a worthy debate from. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" are nebulous concepts nowadays and mean different things to different people.

For example, I (a fiscal conservative) very much believe that gay rights are explicitly covered under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment so defending these rights is therefore a "conservative" position. Many from the religious right would label me a liberal for this belief.

Seeing that this was a satire thread gone horribly awesome, trying to cry thread drift by anyone at this point would be utterly ludicrous. I would however suggest restricting the argument to something less than "DNC rules and GOP drools" might be better. I could speak for hours about the Tea Party alone but to be honest I'm not exactly sure what this debate had evolved (or devolved) into.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Address the issue on 07/10/2013 21:45:32 MDT Print View

Maybe I'll pack heat on my next hike.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Address the issue on 07/10/2013 21:55:53 MDT Print View

"Maybe I'll pack heat on my next hike."

If you bring your dog too then you'll be Craig-bait for sure.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Address the issue on 07/10/2013 21:58:45 MDT Print View

True. Will try to get photos of the mount attempt. I'm taller.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Address the issue on 07/10/2013 22:03:24 MDT Print View

Wait. I am going to be on that hike. Heat, mounting dogs.....I am getting worried now.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Not to worry Kat.. on 07/10/2013 22:17:36 MDT Print View

Bring a camera and some bear spray. Let Ken walk ahead of you and chances are you'll have the best seat in the house.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/11/2013 11:45:35 MDT Print View

Ken H has some well thought out AND POIGNANT INSIGHT INTO THE NEOTARD MINDSET, and I think his explanation could bring enough understanding to man kind to bring everlasting peace. IF YOU RETARDS WOULD JUST LISTEN and STOP WIT THE SILYNISS.

gosh.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Hammers on trails on 07/11/2013 23:03:26 MDT Print View

"Frankly, I'm not sure why we keep talking about guns and dogs...lets be honest: what we really need to worry about are falling vending machines."

Back several years ago when I lived in Santa Fe I heard about a case of some guys in Arizona going around shooting saguaro cacti with shotguns. Apparently they explode or something in a very satisfying way if you are into that kind of thing. Anyway, the saguaro are protected, and take hundred of years to get to a good size, and there was a big uproar about it. But one of the guys supposedly died when one of the larger ones he just shot actually fell on him. Treebeard could't have done it better!

Edited by millonas on 07/11/2013 23:05:10 MDT.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Ballad of the Saguaro on 07/13/2013 10:37:18 MDT Print View

Great song about it.

http://vimeo.com/40232010

"Cactus plugging is the practice of vandalizing or destroying a cactus, usually a saguaro, for fun. Typically the cactus is cut open, drained, then packed with explosives and ignited. In another variation, the vandal simply shoots bullets into the cactus body until portions fall off or the entire cactus falls over.
In one notorious incident in 1982, one David Grundman was killed when an arm of the saguaro he was "plugging" fell on him. A song by the Austin Lounge Lizards (co-written by Ann Clardy) poked fun at Grundman's stupidity.
The act of cactus plugging, if performed on a saguaro, is illegal. In any case, it is a particularly destructive form of vandalism, as saguaros require over a hundred years to reach a substantial height. - Wikipedia -"

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/13/2013 16:59:48 MDT Print View

"Maybe I'll pack heat on my next hike."

Ken...was that heat or "Heet"?

M

PS--By the way,Ken Helwig, you stated in a post to Kat that "I asked Matthew to post information and he did not", when, in fact, I did link several articles and other info that I believe you did not even bother to read. Please do not lie. It's not becoming of you. We can do without name calling, also, please.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/13/2013 21:30:51 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/13/2013 18:36:17 MDT Print View

heat

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/13/2013 19:18:25 MDT Print View

Either way, i'm in favor of it.

Matt
PS--By the way,Ken Helwig, you stated in a post to Kat that "I asked Matthew to post information and he did not", when, in fact, I did link several articles and other info that I believe you did not even bother to read. Please do not lie. It's not becoming of you. We can do without name calling, also, please.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 07/13/2013 21:31:36 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 17:21:51 MDT Print View

Hammer? Meet nail.....and then right on the head

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=624308027602471&set=a.502129386487003.92449663.502122049821070&type=1&theater

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 17:56:18 MDT Print View

Thanks for the link, however that does address what we have been talking about here.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 18:21:43 MDT Print View

Don't care, I am right. I stated my reasons why I do not like The GOP. If you are a minority, gay or a woman, you should be very concerned of what they are trying to do to you

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 18:25:29 MDT Print View

Keep on keepin' on! What side of the fence are you on? What say you!

http://aattp.org/ohio-tea-party-leader-gives-racist-speech-at-school-flies-confederate-flag/

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 18:26:23 MDT Print View

Do not engage the guns owner in a political discussion is the lesson I take away from this thread. You're likely to get shot.

Head down, mouth shut, keep moving, no eye contact. Probably makes them feel bad ass to get that reaction.





Edit: 13 pages huh? Are none of us getting outside enough this year? I'm not apparently.

I'm lost.

Edited by kthompson on 07/14/2013 18:58:41 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 18:35:20 MDT Print View

Ken Helwig, can you try and address my questions from previous posts that you said you would think about and address?
Again, I am not a citizen and cannot vote. I don't have to but into a party.
I am concerned about what both parties are doing; sometimes one concerns me more than the other. You Ken, are someone that concerns me, as are people on the right just as blinded as you seem to be. I have been trying very hard to maintain a rational discussion with you, but that is just not possible at this point. You refuse to answer any question or even ask me about where I stand.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 18:36:50 MDT Print View

"Keep on keepin' on! What side of the fence are you on? What say you!

http://aattp.org/ohio-tea-party-leader-gives-racist-speech-at-school-flies-confederate-flag/"


Again, neither side of the fence, and I don't have to be.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 18:38:15 MDT Print View

"Don't care, I am right. I stated my reasons why I do not like The GOP. If you are a minority, gay or a woman, you should be very concerned of what they are trying to do to you"


You are right about what?
I am concerned about what is going on, as a free thinking person.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 19:07:31 MDT Print View

Choosing to stay on the fence is still a choice. I'm sure I don't agree with all of Ken's beliefs, but drawing false equivalencies just makes a person look foolish. Both sides do bad things, but they are NOT equally bad, either in quality or quantity.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 19:38:30 MDT Print View

"but drawing false equivalencies just makes a person look foolish. Both sides do bad things, but they are NOT equally bad, either in quality or quantity"

Spelt, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I consider myself to be pretty fair minded; both the DNC and GOP received equal votes from me in the last election but there is no way IMO anyone can show how one is appreciably worse than the other.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 22:11:31 MDT Print View

Ian, that is exactly the false equivalency that I am talking about: this notion that because neither side is perfect, they therefore MUST be equally bad. Just because a point of view exists does not mean it has merit. Likewise, just because a point of view is flawed in execution does not mean it is without merit. This is actually an absolutist approach to the idea of shades of gray, a perversion that removes all context until nothing is left but "teach the controversy."

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/14/2013 22:49:05 MDT Print View

I can speak for hours on some horrible things that the GOP has done to our country and then hours beyond that about the DNC. To be honest, you are implying that one of the parties is significantly worse than the other but I'm not sure which one you are talking about.

Less rhetoric rant and more specificity please.

Want to trace no bid contracts to companies like Halliburton and KBR, start with LBJ (and every president after him). http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1569483

Want to talk about US sponsored terrorism? Reagan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Beirut_car_bombing

Censorship? Al and Tipper Gore.

America's play now pay later mantra ala printing funny money? Clearly a 50/50 effort.

I can go on forever.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 07:03:34 MDT Print View

"Choosing to stay on the fence is still a choice."

The fence. The fence that separates people whose beliefs magically coincide with the special interests that have bought the two parties? The fence that separates voters?
You see that fence and I don't, so I am not sitting on it as far as I am concerned. I do see people acting as if there is one, moving further and further away from this imaginary line, yelling at me about the danger I am in, hanging out near this border.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 08:00:59 MDT Print View

To be honest, you are implying that one of the parties is significantly worse than the other but I'm not sure which one you are talking about.

That was by intention. As soon as you get into specifics you are basically arguing semantics and awareness of guiding philosophies that shape the worldviews behind each party are lost in he-said-she-said. Not helpful IMO. Which party you think worse (if you do) depends on your own worldview and how that matches or doesn't to those of the parties. People do not really vote rationally. Many studies have shown this. I think that people do not pick sides rationally either, so a comparison of bad things might win an argument, but it won't change many minds.

I'm trying not to be obtuse but it's been a while since I've had such discussions and I'm out of practice. Hopefully that was vaguely comprehensible.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 08:09:13 MDT Print View

Kat, you are dissembling. Fence or no, imaginary or no, choosing not to choose is a choice. Saying there is no clear, good choice is one thing (Ian's argument). I hear you saying you do not see a choice at all. That seems either unobservant or disingenuous.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 09:34:38 MDT Print View

Again, I don't get to vote. The advantage to that is that I don't have/get/need to choose. The other advantage is that by staying on the outside I think I see things without the slant; I am not sure of that, I just think so.
I have not had TV in over 20 years; I get my news from the radio, mostly NPR and from the Internet. I don't even know what most politicians and celebrities look like.
I was raised first in a country that in some ways resembles the US, but with a way more decentralized government, more business friendly, yet safety nets for those who need it. Most everyone there seems to care about the environment. No wars, but they like to be prepared. Plenty of things I don't like about Switzerland too, by the way.
Next I was raised in a country that before my time swung to the far right ( although fascism is beyond either side really) then swung so far to the left that only the rich and those with government connections got to move ahead and do any kind of business. Corruption still runs rampant in Italy today. Berlusconi....don't get me started!

My only argument on this thread was that both extremes, particularly if loaded with offensive language, put downs and assumptions - hurt us. When the right does that there are many legitimately vociferous people that call them on it. When the left does it, it's ok because they are right in their views. I object to that. I also object to have been pigeon holed and unfairly cast off as a right winger, which I am not. Then fear tactics to get me to get off the fence. You want me to say that while both parties are bad, the right is worse. I have probably argued more in my life against right wingers than I have left wingers. I have been attacked more viciously by the left, as the polarizing is getting worse. I am not the one in this thread that has made assumptions; I do believe that both parties are succeeding in demonizing the other and I have been a recipient of that here, without even belonging to the "other" party. There is something wrong with that.

Edited by Kat_P on 07/15/2013 18:06:15 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 10:35:41 MDT Print View

I'm starting the "Frig you people I'm going hiking" party aka the G.O.D. (Grand ol' Dirtbags).

Who's with me?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 10:41:40 MDT Print View

Sounds good to me.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 10:57:38 MDT Print View

Kat, my ex was also a non-citizen but that didn't stop her from having an opinion, which was philosophically consistent with her party affiliation and absentee voting for back home. I have never gotten the impression you were a right-winger, btw, but you also seem too smart not to know what Ken's referring to wrt right-wing views on race and gender and I feel like maybe you're pushing back just for the sake of pushing back. I don't like extremism either, but I don't see making a value judgement as anywhere near equivalent to the sort of polarization you don't want to commit. Agreeing that an extremist is on the right side of an issue doesn't make you yourself an extremist.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 11:11:44 MDT Print View

Spelt, I have plenty of opinions and if you ask me about an issue I will give you one, no problem. The way the issues are split among party lines in this country, is a farce to me and whatever affiliation I may have had back home, does not translate well into this system. What is so hard to understand about that?
Ken made very little sense to me as a whole in this thread. Yes, I get that women, gays and non whites vote democratic and I understand why.
Yes, agreeing that an extremist is on the right side of an issue does not make you an extremist- now apply that both ways. I dared side with an extremist here and got dismissed, accused, warned and chastised.
I have tried hard to not engage in an offensive way and hopefully get some of more temperate posters back into the conversation, but once threads get like this people just want to stay away. I blame a couple people for that.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/15/2013 11:27:37 MDT Print View

I really wasn't going to join back in, but I'll just add this little bit....

"Yes, I get that women, gays and non whites vote democratic and I understand why."

Here's where we get into a bit of trouble. Women, gays and non whites also vote republican. Of course, this is where some folks like to chime in with "they're voting against their best interests!".

Here's the problem with that, everyone has their own value system - deciding what's important to them and what's not so important. These days there seems to be little effort on either side to understand the other - just bombastic assertions 'voting against interests' or 'ruining America,' as if 'your' values are obviously correct and only an idiot, or worse, would think otherwise. This type of thinking fails us all.

From what I keep reading in Kat's posts, that's part of what she's trying to convey. It's not that she's sitting on a fence, she's just trying to stay out of the mud. Good on her.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 17:39:27 MDT Print View

Ohhhhh offensive language Moui??? Go back and read if you are implying that it is me. As I do not use foul language here. I know the rules. Maybe in my personal life I do.....ohhhh what a bummer, I better call out a plummer. Secondly Kat, it takes two to tango, No? There are instances from others on here, that my diatribes were NOT directed to. that were indeed offensive towards me too.....and purposely done BTW. Where do you stand on the fence on that then? Because clearly, you are glossing over. No worries, I am a big boy.

Again....I will be more direct this time. IF.....YOU.....ARE....A.....WOMAN....GAY.....NON WHITE.....OR THE WEALTHY....WHY....IN THE WORLD.....WOULD....YOU....VOTE.....FOR....THE GOP. They want to take away any rights you have. Just look at abortion, food stamps, our environment.....we can go on and on and on and on.

Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO party is perfect, far from. But if I were playing political poker, I would shove all my chips to the table with the DNC. I am not naive in the notion that this is black and white....a lot of gray is necessary. Get off your high horse.

AGAIN, I am right, and really do not care. Carry on.


And Kat, just because you cannot vote here, you can and surely align yourself with a politcal party. That or you are apathetic. The way you sound, seems to me that you are aligning yourself as a Libertarian and I struck a nerve. Freethinking??? My a**

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 17:42:22 MDT Print View

and Doug, clearly others do vote for a political party as you stated above. You know, where it may seem that they are voting against their "principles" per se. But the GOP has an agenda, and will die trying

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 17:43:08 MDT Print View

"Ohhhhh offensive ... blah blah ... My a**"

That was lovely.

Edit to add:

"Again....I will be more direct this time. IF.....YOU.....ARE....A.....WOMAN....GAY.....NON WHITE.....OR THE WEALTHY....WHY....IN THE WORLD.....WOULD....YOU....VOTE.....FOR....THE GOP. They want to take away any rights you have. Just look at abortion, food stamps, our environment.....we can go on and on and on and on."

Abortion.... not going there.

Food stamps... I'm happy that there's a safety net but both parties need to focus on jobs. Food stamps should be a hand up not a hand out.

Gay rights... will be a non issue in the very near future regardless of what the opposition wants.

Wealthy? Common perception is that the GOP is tax friendlier to the wealthy so I'm not sure why you threw that in there.

Political independents, not kool aid drinkers, decide who our elected officials will be.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 07/16/2013 18:00:42 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 17:51:26 MDT Print View

Thanks Ian! I did too!


and now for playing fair!


Who does not think that this is paranoid and delusional. Teachers arming themselves to protect their students. Open carry laws with the purpose of protecting your person as well as stopping crime. That the fact of carrying a weapon ie CCW will stop crime. That the Government is going to take your guns away. Oohh hey, they are buying up the ammo so that an insurrection will not happen. The proliferation of militias to protect citizens from the tyranny of our Govt.

Explain how our Govt. is being tyrannical? I am curious. And when you do, please look up the word tyranny before writing. Racism? The Teaparty is not???? Please explain that.

Now I am going to go and get my popcorn, sip some water and sit back and watch the silly

Edited by kennyhel77 on 07/16/2013 17:55:28 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
awesome on 07/16/2013 18:23:56 MDT Print View

Thanks for that eloquent rehashing of Helwigian philosophy.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: awesome on 07/16/2013 18:54:26 MDT Print View

and thanks for demeaning a member Gross Bob. Your username is quite catchy! Geez Cameron, how old are you?

Coming from you, who does not share anything here but barbs, cut downs, and Pius put downs, I don't expect less. Keep up your single life, god knows most women don't find your type attractive spicolli

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: awesome on 07/16/2013 18:56:53 MDT Print View

Popcorn is done. What I miss? It's so Chaffy in here. Should I close a window?




get it?


I love puns.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: awesome on 07/16/2013 19:02:32 MDT Print View

another one! Yea they all come out!

The tri-fecta of watch dogs here.....

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: awesome on 07/16/2013 19:07:51 MDT Print View

Apart from this thread Ken, how have you been? I won't touch the political talk here. Apathy, I'll admit that.

I had to see what was going on here.

Wonder if this thread will make 20 pages tonight,


watch dog? what's with that. I thought we made up.

Edited by kthompson on 07/16/2013 19:10:21 MDT.

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 19:07:59 MDT Print View

Ken, apparently you didn't read my post about 10 pages back when I gave you about a paragraph and a half of examples of how the government was being tyrannical.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 19:12:56 MDT Print View

Ohhhh crap, I don't care Doug. That is your delusional opinion. Go march on DC with a gun son. More power to you! Where does your family need to pick up your body parts at???

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 19:17:45 MDT Print View

If you don't care why did you ask? I do have to admit, you are good at stirring up the crap, better than a industrial mixer in fact.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/16/2013 19:37:45 MDT Print View

touche' Doug


I will re visit this tomorrow.

Ken, same as. No Hostility....trust me, and thank you for asking

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Better reading on 07/16/2013 20:55:19 MDT Print View

I will be more direct this time. YOU.....ARE....A.....WOMAN....GAY.....NON WHITE.....

THE WEALTHY...IN THE WORLD...VOTE.....FOR....THE GOP.

--
fixed that for you.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Better reading on 07/17/2013 07:00:52 MDT Print View

ahhhhh global politics! Way to go Cameron....so I guess you run around Oak Town dressed in black with a black scarf over your face smashing windows like your brethren? Damn G8!

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/17/2013 18:43:51 MDT Print View

Sorry, I had thought you were enraged when writing and mistyped. I was trying to distill down the essential core of your teachings.

I appologize for getting the ultimate meaning wrong.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
what to do when encountering guns on the trail on 07/23/2013 19:37:36 MDT Print View

Ahhhhhhh Zimmerman not guilty !!!!!!!
MORTAL KOMBAT !

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Hi Ken on 07/31/2013 14:36:50 MDT Print View

Just perusing the Chaff and came across this gem of a thread.

Good to see Chaff alive and well!


To answer your question, Ken, I'm just really busy. I'll get back on the forums sometime.