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Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists
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Maia Jordan
(maia) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists on 06/04/2013 20:20:40 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists on 06/05/2013 03:38:58 MDT Print View

Another great write up.
Thanks!

Joel Benford
(Morte66) - F - M

Locale: Surrey flatlands, England
Cost on 06/05/2013 05:25:57 MDT Print View

Do you happen to know Will, from your gear list software or whatever, what a complete set up would cost?

Tony Ronco
(tr-browsing) - MLife
+ 1 on Cost on 06/05/2013 08:01:27 MDT Print View

+1 on the Cost Curiosity question

Roman Vazhnov
(joarr) - MLife

Locale: Russia
food weight for 5 days on 06/05/2013 08:09:45 MDT Print View

4 breakfasts x 7 oz + 5 lunches x 10 oz + 4 dinners x 7 oz = 106 oz total (3005 grams), not 70.

2 kg (70 oz) of food for five days are clearly not enough.

Edited by joarr on 06/05/2013 08:11:56 MDT.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: food weight for 5 days on 06/05/2013 08:30:44 MDT Print View

"2 kg (70 oz) of food for five days are clearly not enough."

Depends on the person. Metabolisms vary significantly. Mike C! has thoroughly tested food weights and advocates (last I checked anyway) 1.2 lbs (or 19 oz) per person per day.

5*19 = 95 oz, but that assumes you need 5 full days of meals. Most people don't carry/eat breakfast on the first day and dinner on the last day, so really it's more like 4.5 days of meals for a 5 day trip.

4.5*19 = 86 oz

Mike C! doesn't worry about caloric density either. You can do better on weight by using dense foods.

Will is older, and while quite active, isn't going to need as many calories as say Andrew Skurka. Most backpackers can also spare a few pounds of body fat and don't need to depend on the food they carry for survival, especially on shorter trips.

Edited by simplespirit on 06/05/2013 08:34:22 MDT.

Will Tatman
(roboconcept)
Water Capacity... on 06/05/2013 11:10:08 MDT Print View

Scratching my head at the 'Maximum of 1 liter of water carried'....

Bruce Warren
(Aimee) - F - MLife
Point of diminishing returns... on 06/05/2013 12:11:21 MDT Print View

I love this series because it "takes it to the limit". Hikers have nothing else to do so why not make each camping task more time consuming or less comfortable to save weight. But I suggest that there is no net benefit (joy, mileage, comfort...) to going so low with pack weight.

When I was designing backpacks using the kids in my Boy Scout Troop as guinea pigs, I stumbled upon an interesting metric. The 12 kids varied in weight from 110 lbs to 220lbs. But they all had no problem hiking (mostly flat trails in Texas) with a total load under 30 lbs. Cutting down to 20lb made no difference in their performance/fun/stumbles. (under 20 is impossible with Boy Scouts) But going over 30 lbs made most of the scouts (big and small) very tired very fast and they tipped over a lot. It was not a percentage of body weight... it was 30 lbs.

I believe that if you keep your total added weight under 30lbs your hike will be a success. I speculate that it relates to humans evolving carrying their kids around for safety/speed/etc. When the kid gets to 30lbs he can survive on his own two feet.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Water Capacity... on 06/05/2013 12:25:06 MDT Print View

"Scratching my head at the 'Maximum of 1 liter of water carried'...."

I never carry more than 1/2 liter

Will Rietveld
(WilliWabbit) - MLife

Locale: Southwest Colorado
Re: food weight for 5 days on 06/05/2013 12:41:27 MDT Print View

Looks like I made a math error. Will get it corrected asap.

1.5 pounds of food per day is just right for me when hiking hard. I eat less the first 2 days then eat more the remaining days. Every hiker needs to determine the amount of food needed for his metabolism.

Water is abundant in the mountains where I hike so 1 liter is enough to carry. Every hiker needs to make a judgment call on how much water to carry for his needs and situation. Best, Will

Mobius Vortex
(MobiusVortex)
missing some basics on 06/05/2013 21:11:27 MDT Print View

A few basic items appear to be missing. Soap, Map, Compass, car key...
Including TP DEET and sunscreen in your lists but no soap really caught my eye.
Also a liter of water by definition is 1Kg or 1000g not 998g.

Rex Sanders
(Rex) - M

Locale: Central California Coast
Re: missing some basics on 06/05/2013 21:39:37 MDT Print View

"Also a liter of water by definition is 1Kg or 1000g not 998g."

Depends on temperature. At 20°C, 1 liter is about 998g.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Density_of_water_and_ice
Water Density Graph from Kdkeller@Wikipedia

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: missing some basics on 06/05/2013 22:01:17 MDT Print View

Soap? I haven't taken soap on a trip in years.

It is certainly okay to smell a bit and don't forget THIS IS A SUL ARTICLE!!!!

Mobius Vortex
(MobiusVortex)
Re: missing some basics on 06/05/2013 22:13:05 MDT Print View

Davey,

The soap has nothing to do with smelling nice it has to do with wiping your ass then stuffing the same hand into your food bag. There are many articles (some on this site) that show most intestinal distress in the back country is from bad hygiene practices not bad water.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: missing some basics on 06/05/2013 22:20:17 MDT Print View

Use a leaf. And spork.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
For shame... on 06/05/2013 22:25:54 MDT Print View

Bloody hell Ryan Jordan!!! This is what you're willing to publish?

2 grams off on a liter of water??!! And I thought you were a PHD or dentist or life coach or something.

No soap or car key listed??!! Keep your hands outta my M&Ms and back off. And not listing your car key on the spreadsheet is dishonest. This ain't Wall Street Ryan Jordan; go back to Bear Stearns with Will and your phony accountants. Think of the example you're setting for your Scouts and Countrymen.

No map or compass??!! You're not just putting your own life at risk. Think of all those that could die looking for you. Flagrant disregard for others. Will, I'm putting you in touch with Dale immediately for some 10 Essentials training.

An otherwise solid article is ruined now. Completely ruined.
Children could be reading this.

For shame, Ryan Jordan, for shame. Will, I trusted you.

Edited by xnomanx on 06/05/2013 22:36:54 MDT.

Mobius Vortex
(MobiusVortex)
Re: For shame... on 06/05/2013 22:45:37 MDT Print View

Craig,

I should have know better that post a comment on a site populated by fanatics. The weights in Will's most excellent article are listed down to thousandths of an ounce or tenth of a gram. To strive for such accuracy and leave out essential items seems like an over-site to me. And yes, I DO consider soap, map, compass and car key essential. After all I would like to be able to return home at the end of my trip.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: For shame... on 06/05/2013 23:24:52 MDT Print View

I often don't bring a map or compass in areas I am very familiar with. Many people leave their keys under a rock or stashed on the car frame. My present vehicle was purchased specifically to include a keyless entry system so I can hide the key inside where it would be difficult for a thief to find. You don't need soap for a weekend trip. Do you think the soldiers that go through survival training are issued soap?

The concept of light, UL, SUL, etc. is to maximize the one critical piece of equipment -- the brain.

Relax -- it's just walking.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: For shame... on 06/06/2013 00:32:39 MDT Print View

Craig, you forgot:


Human Sacrifice, Dogs and Cats living together... Mass Hysteria


I agree that it seem some on this forum have an 10 essentials kit the probably weighs more than Wills list.

And Nick I agree with the key thing- I lock mine in the car and have a spare attached to the frame. I do take soap for my #2 clean up, I don't use TP and kind of have an issue with cleanup. I guess water and some pine needles or the like would work. But for less than a ounce- I'll take the soap.

Compass and map- there are some areas of the cascades that I don't need a compass/map. I have been on many trips where either never came out. But I always take it if there is even the slightest chance I'll have a issue (which means 90% of the time- I like to change things up)

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: missing some basics on 06/06/2013 06:54:16 MDT Print View

"The soap has nothing to do with smelling nice it has to do with wiping your ass then stuffing the same hand into your food bag."

On solo trips, you can generally do away with soap. If you are not infected with anything, there is no reason to anticipate being infected with something through feces or urine. Sound's kind'a gross, but, this is a scientific fact. If you have ever had new-born puppys around, you know that it is common for them to eat their own feces. They do not die from this behavior. Nor does a mother get sick from cleaning up after the young ones. Even if a person were to have something already, there is only a few that can reinfect the same person...and it doesn't matter because that person is already infected with whatever disease/parasite (though some tapeworms, and other types can double infect...I am assuming a healthy person to start.)

It is Human to Human that transmits diseases. You cannot get a new disease from anything your own body produces. It is the other guy you have to watch out for.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: For shame... on 06/06/2013 07:20:55 MDT Print View

I should have know better that post a comment on a site populated by fanatics.

Craig... a fanatic! That made me laugh out loud!

Mobius... always take Craig with a gram of salt. Or soap. He's been known to exaggerate... on purpose.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: missing some basics on 06/06/2013 08:15:24 MDT Print View

"It is Human to Human that transmits diseases. You cannot get a new disease from anything your own body produces. It is the other guy you have to watch out for."

I've never been sure about that. Maybe if you take bacteria from your colon and put them in your stomach you could have a problem?

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: Re: missing some basics on 06/06/2013 10:11:00 MDT Print View

"I've never been sure about that. Maybe if you take bacteria from your colon and put them in your stomach you could have a problem?"

Well, maybe...
e.Coli is commonly found throughout the intestinal area. Occasionally in the stomach, but I believe simple paristolosis keeps the numbers down to a minimum when coupled with lining-shed, and enzymes/chemicals produced for normal digestion.
Here is an excerpt from the Centers for Disease Control:

Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria normally live in the intestines of people and animals. Most E. coli are harmless and actually are an important part of a healthy human intestinal tract. However, some E. coli are pathogenic, meaning they can cause illness, either diarrhea or illness outside of the intestinal tract. The types of E. coli that can cause diarrhea can be transmitted through contaminated water or food, or through contact with animals or persons.

E. coli consists of a diverse group of bacteria. Pathogenic E. coli strains are categorized into pathotypes. Six pathotypes are associated with diarrhea and collectively are referred to as diarrheagenic E. coli.

(from http://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/general/index.html#where)
Again, this is a "maybe".
I spent a couple hours looking trhough all the medical stuff on line, but I didn't run across it, though there was some mention of it that infants could be suseptible. Unclear if this applies to adults due to socization or biology. All the documents were pretty much like the above. If you use resonable precautions, like a clean spoon, boiling foods, using your other hand for eating "Arabic" style, I don't think there is much to worry about.

Again, if you have one of the above mentioned pathogenic types, you will likly be imune to it anyway, since you *must* have had it *sometime before* going hiking for it to be present. Or, it is no longer present and poses no threat, since you would be sick if it was present. Sort of a Catch 22. You surley wouldn't go camping if you already were sick. But, you MIGHT be "that other person" if you go with a group.

Unclear...like you say...

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: e.Coli on 06/06/2013 10:35:11 MDT Print View

You'll know if you get the wrong kind of e.Coli. My daughter had a bout a few years ago and spent the better part of a week in the hospital. Believe me, you don't ever want to go there. Wash your hands and make sure the cook does! A small vial of liquid soap and another of alcohol gel hand cleaner won't throw your base weight out of whack.

It sounds like your mother, but she was right :)

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: missing some basics on 06/06/2013 10:54:58 MDT Print View

How good is the soap for the environment?

Take away: don't shake hands with a stranger.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: missing some basics on 06/06/2013 18:25:29 MDT Print View

"I've never been sure about that. Maybe if you take bacteria from your colon and put them in your stomach you could have a problem?"

One way to find out.... ;o)

Might there be a reason why Mommy told you to wash your hands after doing number 2?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: For shame... on 06/06/2013 18:44:02 MDT Print View

"I should have know better that post a comment on a site populated by fanatics. The weights in Will's most excellent article are listed down to thousandths of an ounce or tenth of a gram. To strive for such accuracy and leave out essential items seems like an over-site to me. And yes, I DO consider soap, map, compass and car key essential. After all I would like to be able to return home at the end of my trip."

Mobius me lad, you yourself have left out the most essential item of all, and it weighs nothing: A sense of humor. :0)

John Coyle
(Bigsac)

Locale: NorCal
Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter etc. on 06/06/2013 23:18:05 MDT Print View

Nice article with lots of good ideas. When I backpack though, I simply must take something for enlightenment, a book, a Kindle, a small radio, an mp-3, lightweight binoculars, even an Overton Whistle. I mean come on, when you get to camp what are you going to do, just sit there and twiddle your thumbs?

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter etc. on 06/07/2013 00:06:30 MDT Print View

I practice random bushcrafty skills in camp. Catch some fish, gather some edibles, twist some natural cordage, carve a spoon, practice fire skills, or whatever. I will also try to climb anything climbable around camp.

Henk Smees
(theflyingdutchman) - MLife

Locale: Spanish Mountains
"take something for enlightenment" on 06/07/2013 02:41:21 MDT Print View

>I mean come on, when you get to camp what are you going to do, just sit there and twiddle your thumbs?<

When I'm out with friends, we talk and have a great time (can't tell jokes reading a book); when I'm on my own (not often but it happens sometimes), I walk all day (12 to 14 hours) and then, the only thing I want to do, is have a nice *warm* meal and go to bed - no energy left for anything else :(.

Edited by theflyingdutchman on 06/07/2013 02:45:04 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter etc. on 06/07/2013 17:35:39 MDT Print View

"When I backpack though, I simply must take something for enlightenment, a book, a Kindle, a small radio, an mp-3, lightweight binoculars, even an Overton Whistle. I mean come on, when you get to camp what are you going to do, just sit there and twiddle your thumbs?"

Maybe just find a nice, comfy place to sit, motionless and silent, and pay attention to what is going on around you? The means to draw a little closer to enlightenment are all around you, and they neither weigh anything nor take up any space in your pack.

C Nugget
(nuggetwn)

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: food weight for 5 days on 06/07/2013 20:06:00 MDT Print View

" Mike C! has thoroughly tested food weights and advocates (last I checked anyway) 1.2 lbs (or 19 oz) per person per day. "

I could be wrong or maybe his opinion has changed, but in his book, "Ultralight Backpackin' Tips: ... " Mike Clelland's formula was worked out to 1.4lbs per person per day.

Food weight is individual both by how one goes about calculating amounts & by end weight. Mike C's approach was a great starting point for myself. I was able to exit with zero food on my last 9 day trip in the Grand Canyon.

B) ;P :)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: food weight for 5 days on 06/07/2013 20:36:27 MDT Print View

"Food weight is individual both by how one goes about calculating amounts & by end weight."

+1

That said, if one is willing to include a certain amount of body fat in their dietary calculations, 19 oz/day is not unreasonable. It is my standard carried food weight for trips up to 8 days. As usual, YMMV.

John Nielsen
(johndn) - MLife

Locale: Matanuska Valley, Alaska
windtech hat on 06/08/2013 02:22:00 MDT Print View

Where do you find the turtle fur windtech hat? I'm not familiar with this one. Can't find it on the net. Oops, just noticed Will's note, no longer available.

Edited by johndn on 06/13/2013 20:49:19 MDT.

Jamie Shortt
(jshortt) - MLife

Locale: North Carolina
Re: Re: Re: Re: food weight for 5 days on 06/08/2013 08:06:16 MDT Print View

Will, Great set of articles, I am truly enjoying this series.

A lot of content, but I will comment quickly on the amount of food/day as this is an area I continue to tweek.

I typically go out for 2 nights at a time so I need food for 2-2.5 days. Here is a picture of what I took this week on a trip to the Smoky's (6/4-6/6).

Jamie Food for 2.5 Days

It weighed 42.5 oz including all packaging and my cuben food hanging sack. I returned with a little bit of jerky, snack mix, and twizzlers that weighed 4.1 oz. This is pretty close to consuming 19 oz/day including packaging. I typically hike for longer periods and when I do I don't feel the need to eat as much, this might work opposite for others and might not be true for longer trips. But for me, this consumption repeats itself each time I hike. I am rarely hungry.

Next time I plan to reduce the jerky and snack mix. I might go to all Jelly Belly's as those things are great.

Jamie

Edited by jshortt on 06/08/2013 08:07:56 MDT.

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
Great article! on 06/08/2013 08:28:54 MDT Print View

Water treatment and good hygiene practices together will reduce your chances of getting sick as a huge amount of NOLS data has shown. They treat water AND practice good hygiene and have a fraction of stomach upsets vs the general backpacking population. Certain pathogens are passed human to human, and animal to human, and human to animal. For giardia it is all three.

People are right that the amount of food depends a lot on the person. Many can get by 19 oz or so of food a day for shorter trips. Experience will tell you what you need to carry. For thru-hikes and the like I think it's fair to say that most people need about 2 lbs a day to avoid losing excessive amounts of weight.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: food weight for 5 days on 06/08/2013 16:55:21 MDT Print View

"I might go to all Jelly Belly's as those things are great."

You're on the right track there, Jamie. They will provide the carbs necessary to support the metabolism of body fat, which will provide you will ample energy for 2-3 trips, unless you are severely underweight. In most cases folks have enough extra body fat, which provides ~3500 calories/pound, to last them at least a week as a supplement to carried food providing 2500 calories or so, if they provide the carbs necessary to support its metabolism.

Richard Mock
(moxtr) - M

Locale: The piney woods
Wash hands on 06/09/2013 00:48:16 MDT Print View

I wash my hands with small amounts of soap and water and finish with Purell. Dosen't everyone?

Jason Livingston
(jasonlivy)
Re: Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists on 06/09/2013 15:43:42 MDT Print View

Thanks Will:

Great article!

I enjoy these articles for many reasons. One, I read what is possible for lightening my pack. Two, I really appreciate the time and effort Will has made in accumulating the information based on his experience. He does so humbly and as a benefit to fellow backpackers. I'm sure he would be the first to admit that he doesn't expect anyone to take what he has to say and follow it verbatim. This is just what works for him and am grateful he's spent the time to share it with us. I know Will goes to drastic lengths to back up his claims. Even with the exhaustive research and passion he puts into his articles, some of it boils down to personal preference.

As a Cascade Designs rep in the Rocky Mtns, I am always intrigued by the insights I get from backpackinglight.com. Some I agree with, others I don't, but I always find something that I can learn from.

I do have a few small inexpensive items that I would recommend for Will on his list. One is the newly updated MSR Spoon, Spork, and Fork. They weigh in at 5 grams each and are foldable meaning they can be extended to a long-handled utensil. I used the spoon recently on a 60 mile trip into Escalante National Park and was very pleasantly surprised. One of the guys we were with used it to clean out his plastic peanut butter jar and felt it was robust enough for that purpose (he admittedly has a bit to learn about UL backpacking).

The other is our new MSR Aquatab Tablets (passed EPA for sale in all 50 states just recently). These new tablets are not chlorine dioxide but Troclosene Sodium. The pills themselves are not toxic and therefore the packaging is easy to open. They are incredibly light and inexpensive ($12.95 for 30). This is a good alternative to Aquamira. Check out Aquatabs.com for more info. Cascade Designs is the sole distributor of Aquatabs in the US.

The Platypus 2L bottle is 8g heavier than the Sawyer 2L flask, but built much better and is meant for long-term use.

Thanks again for a great series on M-SUL! Can't wait to read more...

Jim Milstein
(JimSubzero) - M

Locale: New Uraniborg CO
Wide Mouth 1L Bottles on 06/09/2013 20:55:34 MDT Print View

I have a Nalgene Wide Mouth 1L Cantene, onto whose lid I grafted a standard narrow beverage neck. This weighs 63 g and is very robust. It's robust enough that I also use it as a squeeze bottle for the Sawyer Squeeze Filter.

1L WideMouth Nalgene Cantene with Mod

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Wide Mouth 1L Bottles on 06/09/2013 21:00:36 MDT Print View

If you don't want to do that yourself now you don't have to.

http://jetflow.com/product-detail/?pid=247

Steven McAllister
(brooklynkayak) - MLife

Locale: Atlantic North East
30 lb on 06/11/2013 17:52:50 MDT Print View

@Bruce W.

Regarding 30 lbs,
Interesting observation as I have always had this concept of a maximum ceiling of 30 lbs for a worst caae scenario. Extra water for arrid hikes and/or extra food for wilderness.

I remember once during a droubt, hearing from a hiker that the next water source was dried up and people were camped up ahead that were out of water.
So I packed 7 liters and proceded to hike over the next couple of mountains to meet up with them.

I was surprised at how I felt fairly comfortable carrying the extra weight, but also felt that I was at the maximum before it became uncomfortable with my framelss pack.

I figured I was just below 30 lbs total pack weight.

John Giesemann
(johngiesemann) - MLife
A Slightly Different Look on 06/14/2013 16:33:32 MDT Print View

Will,
Great job on the series.

I would make a comment on the difference between the first and second gear lists in that (it seems to me) the only real difference is in the fleece bottoms and the gloves for a real difference of only 3.6 ounces.

Why? The difference in the shelters really seems to be extra room. You could add the mesh and the extra beak to the single Hexamid shelter and have practically the same comfort level without the extra room (and weight) of the twin. You also wouldn't need a larger groundcloth. You could save at least 3 ounces with the equipped Solo as opposed to the Twin and achieve the same features of mesh and extra beak. However, adding the mesh and extended beak to the solo would put you a couple of ounces over the 5 pound limit.

Also, why a different water treatment system that weights 2.7 ounces more(including the heavier bottle required) that does the same job as the original system. You may prefer the Steripen system, but it does the same job as the Aqua-Mira.

Third, the different rainwear options may be a little more breathable, but, how often do we wear rain gear and really how much more comfortable would you be? The first system achieves what is needed without the extra weight.

So, now we can go to the third system. The third system of course incorporates the extra weight of the second class and adds weight for the pack, sleeping bag, sleeping pad, hat, and cooking system. This adds up to a total of 16.6 ounces if my math is correct. All of these seem to be legitimate weight additions given harsher conditions in the mountains.

Thus, given the comments above, the real difference between the first system and the third system is only 20.2 ounces instead of approximately 33 ounces. All of this weight is in improved clothing and sleeping systems from a temperature standpoint. This puts the heavier system at 6.2 pounds, just slightly above the second list. Also, this list is just as functional as the third list. Saving .8 pounds and being just as functional seems to make sense to me.

Just another way to look at the difference between the systems described.

Again, a great job looking at the system as a whole and thanks for the series.
JohnG

Will Rietveld
(WilliWabbit) - MLife

Locale: Southwest Colorado
Re: Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists on 06/15/2013 07:29:15 MDT Print View

Finally got the corrections made to gear list weights; thanks Eric!

As expected, the BPL faithful came through, correcting all of my oversights and adding their wisdom. It was fun doing this series and I think it accomplished its goal to get people thinking. The primary messages are: 1) going SUL in the mountains requires an extra pound of base weight to provide adequate protection and comfort, and 2) it's amazing the amount of protection and comfort you can have within a 6 pound base weight.

But all this lovely gear requires $$, and most of use are not going to go out and replace all our gear with the latest and greatest UL items. For most, its a dream gear list and a gradual upgrade process, but its nice to be aware of what's available and set your sights on a gear wish list.

One big consideration is that its easy to purchase an item and find out later that something lighter and better is available. That's a bummer because you have already spent your money, it's call buyer regret. Articles like this can help reduce buyer regret, or perhaps (as per Ryan's message) help you realize you can get by without some things.

At any rate we all love backpacking, and when we're not out in the backcountry we dream about it. And streamlining our gear get is part of the gratification.

Thanks for your comments and compliments, and Happpy hiking! Will

Gary Pikovsky
(gosha007) - F - M

Locale: New Hampshire White Mountains
Ultimate M-SUL in New England? on 07/01/2013 15:41:39 MDT Print View

Will and BPL readers,

Based off your original I created an even lighter (yet arguably more comfy) M-SUL list for New Hampshire's White Mountains. Wanted to share with all of you. Seems to work pretty well for rough and windy conditions here and could apply to general lists overall. What do you all think? Maybe this will help folks on this thread. Could REALLY use some tips and suggestions.

NH / White Mountains 3 season gear list

Temps expected: 60-25F, often very windy
Terrain: above tree line hiking and overnight camping (6000 ft altitude)
Time range: 2-3 day hikes
Season: May to October
Water availability: clean water available at treeline

BASE WEIGHT: 6.8 lbs
WORN: 2.8 lbs
FOOD: 1.8 lbs/day
TOTAL SKIN-OUT WEIGHT + WATER: 12.6 lbs

INSULATION
Down shell – Montbell Ex-Lite 6.1oz
Base bottoms – Rab Meco 120 4.4oz
Sleeping socks – PossumDown socks 2.2oz
Hat – Ambler Patroller 100% merino hat 1.5oz
Gloves – Rab MeCo 165 wool gloves 1oz

RAINWEAR
Shell – Westcomb Shift LT Hoody Neoshell 11.3oz
Shell pants – Montane Minimus 5.1oz
Mitt shells – ZPacks Cuben Fiber Mitts 1oz

SHELTER
Tarp – MLD Trailstar 21oz
Tarp stakes – Easton Full Metal Jacket 0.19 each (10 total)
Ground sheet – Gossamer Gear Polycro cut sheet 0.88oz

PACK
Backpack – Laufbursche huckePacke customized cuben pack 8.5oz
Packliner – Lite Trail NyloBarrier Packliner 1oz

SLEEPING
Sleeping Bag – Mountain Hardwear Mtn Speed 32 Long 17.4oz
Pad – Peak Elite AC S 8.9oz

COOKING
Esbit stove system – combo of LiteTrail / Gardner Outdoor / Suluk 46 T.E.A. – 2.2oz
Spoon – STS Long Handled Spoon - 0.3oz

MISC
Water bottle – Poland spring 0.35
Misc sack – TP, first aid, contacts w/ solution, ear plugs, lip balm, SPF in REI case, repellent, map, vitamin pill 1.5oz

OTHER (possibly optional, not sure yet
Backpad for frame – Gossamer Gear thinlight 2 sections 2.4oz
Camera kit – 5D mark II (too heavy too list, I'm a photographer)
Camera pocket – Gossamer Gear waist pocket 0.66oz
Stuff sacks – 4 cuben sacks for sleeping bag, food, clothing and misc 1.8oz
Pillow – still figuring out (looking for light, but actually comfy)
Headlamp – Fenix H31W 100lumens 2.2oz
Thermometer – 0.4oz
? Balaclava liner (optional) – 1.5oz
? GTX socks – if rainy 1.6oz


WORN
Shoes – Innov8 Roclite 315 20.74oz
Base top – Rab MeCo 165 long sleeve Zip-T M 8.2oz
Shorts – Nike Running shorts 5.0oz
Underwear – part of shorts
Socks – Wigwam Cool-Lite Hiker Pro 1/4 height 1.8oz
Trekking poles – Ruta Locura Yana adjustable poles with baskets for both 8oz
? Liner socks – do you think I need these w/ such light socks?
? Gaiters – maybvDirty Girl / MLD 2oz

Elliott Wolin
(ewolin) - MLife

Locale: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Need enlightenment! on 07/10/2013 11:00:06 MDT Print View

"With all the ultralight gear options available today, that perform just as well as heavier alternatives, why would anyone choose to carry the heavy stuff? There are still a lot of people to enlighten out there!"

Why you ask? The answer is: money!

I would be very happy to be enlightened by someone to the tune of many hundreds of dollars to retire our older, formerly but no longer UL equipment and replace it with new stuff. Since we unfortunately don't get out much my equipment doesn't wear out quickly, so replacement opportunities are few and far between.