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Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
MYOG water filter - questions on 06/01/2013 16:40:41 MDT Print View

Would like to attach a small pump to a Sawyer PointONE inline unit, so have been looking for a small plastic pail pump. So far no luck, as everything is either too big and heavy, or is the fragile and unreliable kind of thing you see on hand lotion containers.

The ideal unit would be under an inch in diameter and around 6 inches long. The hose size is not critical, as adaptors can be fashioned from different size tubing. Would keep the prefilter on my Sweetwater Walk-About, as it has been the most effective and trouble-free prefilter I've used - easily recognizable by the fan-shaped design on the outside (sort of like a peace sign).

The Sawyer unit weighs under 2 oz, so a very light and fast pump filter is feasible if I can find the small plastic pump. Not sure if the filter would go between the pump and the source, or between the pump and the container. The former would be best to keep the pump from being contaminated, but would have to experiment. Could do up a stuff bag with two compartments, one for the contaminated parts, the other for the clean ones.

Any suggestions or sourcing would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
pump on 06/01/2013 19:10:24 MDT Print View

I've been thinking about something very similar recently. I concluded that the lightest and most reliable pump with adequate throughput would be a bulb. The only problem is that bulbs can't pull against much hydrostatic head. So, you can easily make or obtain a bulb that is lightweight, simple (reliable), and will push plenty of water at adequate pressure, but it will have trouble refilling itself (it will tend to stay collapsed) if it is much higher than the surface of the water source.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
pump on 06/01/2013 22:08:02 MDT Print View

Hi Colin,
There should be a light plastic pump out there somewhere. Will bring this forward if and when one is found.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: MYOG water filter - questions on 06/02/2013 01:00:23 MDT Print View

> The ideal unit would be under an inch in diameter and around 6 inches long.
Dead easy. You want a disposable plastic hypodermic in the largest size available.
http://www.terumotmp.com/productdetails.aspx?categoryId=1&productId=208
http://www.medical-and-lab-supplies.com/syringes-needles/syringes-only/60-ml-syringes.html
That would be the 60 cc unit in most cases.

Dunno - there may be larger ones from other suppliers.

Cheers

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
syringe on 06/02/2013 09:45:54 MDT Print View

Yes, a 60ml syringe attached to a short (1cm) bit of tubing, then a tee with little check valves on each side would make for a perfectly functional water pump.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
more questions on 06/03/2013 22:04:37 MDT Print View

You guys make it sound so easy.
But I don't see it.
The hypos are fine for drawing in water, and then shooting it out.
They make kid's water pistols like that.
But I need something with an input tube and an output tube that moves water through it when you pump. Not to mention long term durability, not something intended for just one (hopefully) use.

Called McMaster-Carr and went through most of the pail pumps with customer service.
The lightest was .8 pounds, way too heavy. Hope the CS person wasn't referring to shipping weights.

With Colin's knowledge of check valves and such, maybe I could somehow manufacture something. After spending two years on manufacturing a pack, and needing to do some serious mods to lighten a tent for later this summer, I'm just not in the manufacturing mood. (Oh that's right, winter's coming where you are, Roger). Was hoping something might be found that could just be put in line with the Sawyer filter. Maybe a flash of inspiration will come. A lot of products have little pumps, but they don't last long, and many contain stuff like bug dope you don't want getting near your drinking water. Or maybe I'll grit my teeth and master the annoying eccentricities of the MSR Hyperflow as some have done (Gasp, the price is now up to $100!).

We'll see. Rome wasn't built etc.

Nathan Hays
(oroambulant)

Locale: San Francisco
Pump? on 06/04/2013 01:04:27 MDT Print View

I hook my inline to my zip-top 2L Nathan bladder. Dirty water in the bladder, clean out the other end. Just roll and squeeze the bladder and clean water comes gushing through.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: more questions on 06/04/2013 04:29:03 MDT Print View

Hi Sam

> You guys make it sound so easy.
It is. What you need are Luer lock fittings, as a check valve. See just for example:
http://www.valueplastics.com/products/checkValveMain.aspx
http://www.valueplastics.com/search/fulllinedoublecheckvalves.aspx

These are very nioce integrated T fittings. But you can also get a standard T fitting plus a couple of in-line check valves, and some silicone hose. Google ...

Cheers

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
myog water filter on 06/04/2013 18:09:31 MDT Print View

Hi Roger,
Well, they only sell in a minimum quantity of 100.
And there is still the question of the durability of syringes in rough and heavy outdoor use.

Originally, the intention was to order a simple little plastic pump; but all that I've found that are durable and good capacity are way too heavy, as earlier noted.

I was complaining about the price of the Hyperflow, but the Sawyer in line filter is $60 alone. Think I'll wait to see if EMS has a sale this month that includes the Hyperflows, and then put in some quality time to learning how to handle its glitches so that I'll be ready when they happen in the field, as I know they will. Otherwise there is still the pump filter I have, the Sweetwater Walkabout, that has never failed or even had a glitch in all kinds of awful conditions. A few ounces heavier than the Hyperflow, and pumps much slower, but never a problem.

Water is just too critical an item to experiment with in the field. The Primary reason I've had so many myog project failures lately is quality of materials. So I'm ultrasensitive to that, and will keep looking for a good minipump, and jump on it if it turns up.

But I greatly appreciate your efforts to assist. Thanks.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
mini water pump on 06/04/2013 20:59:12 MDT Print View

Roger,
Knowing from your suggestions that Ebay is a good place to look for odd stuff,
went and after several searches found this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Syphon-Manual-Hand-Pump-kit-SIPHON-water-Liquid-Fuel-Fish-Tank-Extractor-/290901354482?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item43bb1267f2

They seldom list the weights, but almost all these small pumps are at least 8 ounce displacement, which makes them on the big and heavy side. This one looked a little shorter in the photos at the bottom of the page, so decided to risk it, given the not so high price, even though it has to come from the UK to the US.

Well, it could be worse. I could be a facebook junkie.
Cheers.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: myog water filter on 06/05/2013 02:49:32 MDT Print View

Sam, Sam ...

> Well, they only sell in a minimum quantity of 100.
Ask the rep for sample!

Cheers

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
check valve on 06/05/2013 20:54:30 MDT Print View

You know, I tried that, Roger.
And you know what the guy said?
He said, don't take me for a fool, this is Mr. Caffin calling again, right?

On a more serious note, maybe someone can comment on ways to keep the Hyperflow from getting air blocks in the pump. OK, so it's not MYOG, but would be helpful to know.

Don't take that the wrong way - haven't given up on the pump hunt yet.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
small pumps on 06/05/2013 21:02:30 MDT Print View

did you look at fuel pumps for r/c models? You can even have battery operated

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
myog filter on 06/06/2013 21:29:42 MDT Print View

Most nifty idea, M B. Must check them out right away.
Would need an unused one for drinking water, of course.

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: check valve on 06/08/2013 12:28:56 MDT Print View

Next time you go to a hospital or your doctor's office ask for a syringe. If its not contaminated with drug or body fluids or don't have a neadle they might give you one for free. Most stuff in a hospital is used once and then discarded.

Try looking at Amazon.com. A lot of syringe options at low costs:

http://www.amazon.com/Dynarex-Piston-Irrigation-Syringe-60/product-reviews/B001B5NE38/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

The other option is to try a place like mcmaster.com (the hardware equivelent of amazon.com).

http://www.mcmaster.com/#diaphragm-check-valves/=n3tnh2

http://www.mcmaster.com/#syringes/=n3tvpe

Through sites like these you can probably setup something for about $15 dollars maybe less. There are a lot of companies out there and many will sell such items in low quantities. Just go to Google.com and do searches with the words check valves syringes and you will get a lot of hits.


You also might want to look for syringes and check valves with Luer Lock fittings. Then you could simply screw the two together. As to the reliability of syringes they don't cost a lot and you could easily replace after one or two trips. In my experience they tend to last longer than you would expect especially if you periodically lubricate the syringe

Edited by Surf on 06/08/2013 12:32:17 MDT.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
myog pump filter on 06/08/2013 21:03:41 MDT Print View

Steven,
Thanks for your suggestions. Some of them were made in earlier posts on this thread, and I responded. I sort of got wrapped up in this, so spent a lot of time browsing, and called McMaster-Carr for details, among others. Googled in many categories, like aquarium pumps for example. Everything was much too heavy.

The lightest pumps out there seem to be air pumps for bikes; but I don't know how to, or even if you can, convert an air to a water pump. Also, am not savvy enough to find syringes and check valves that are durable for long term use, and figure out how to make them work for this application.

Don't have time to tinker with this now, but maybe next winter. In the meantime, will talk to folks in healthcare professions to get an idea of what might be out there. The lighter Radio Control fuel pumps are crank types, the gears tend to strip, and are not what I'm looking for.

You would think a durable small piston liquid pump would not be so elusive, but it seems so. It may be because those wishing to move water and other liquids by hand find a larger pump more suitable. I've no doubt that with a 2 oz Sawyer filter, a pump filter with a total weight around 5-6 ounces is totally feasible, so will keep looking.

Will post, of course, if successful. It took me two years to find out that kite fittings were totally worthless, and another year to figure out how to modify plumbing fittings from McMaster-Carr and other places to make pack frames; so I've learned to be patient with this sort of thing. But it often takes time.

Edited by scfhome on 06/08/2013 21:06:44 MDT.

Paul McLaughlin
(paul) - MLife
Re: MYOG water filter - questions on 06/14/2013 22:34:05 MDT Print View

have you considered a pump from an MSR stove? Don't know if it could be used to pump water, but it is readily available and pretty light. worth an experiment perhaps.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
MYOG water filter - questions on 06/15/2013 20:34:22 MDT Print View

Thanks for the suggestion, Paul.
Hadn't thought about stove pumps - just assumed they would be metal and heavy.
But will take a look at some of the MSR stoves.

Right now I'm looking at small plastic pumps used to move fluids around in gasoline engines. Some are rugged, light and look promising.

Wish fewer of the short term projects were turning out to be long term ones, though.

Edited by scfhome on 06/15/2013 20:35:11 MDT.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Pump on 06/17/2013 22:31:23 MDT Print View

This is the pump I'm looking at now:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002M589TA/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=1535523722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001DKQZ9Q&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1AZP5NZY535B8256YA8A

It weighs about 4 oz with all the tubing that comes with it, and pumps a quart of water quickly with about 20 strokes.

Will post again when tried with the Sawyer PointOne.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
More questions, more answers on 06/17/2013 23:25:24 MDT Print View

Get thee to a aquarium supply store. There you will find small-diameter tubing, tee-fittings and small, lightweight check-valves. I can often find what I need in the pet supply aisle of a Walmart. That, and a 250- or 500-cc cardiac syringe and you'll be moving some fluids. Note that the smallest diameter of any tubing or fitting in your scheme will be the limiting factor in flow rate.

Or just take the mustard/ketchup pump out of a gallon-jug of condiment. They are easily found next to any hot dog stand.

Edited to add a legal source of the ketchup pump: http://www.amazon.com/Heinz-Easy-Pump/dp/B001AB4G7G/ref=lp_2593411011_1_2?srs=2593411011&ie=UTF8&qid=1371533275&sr=8-2

$7. "An. . . tici. . . .pa. . . . a . . . . tion. . . . . . is making me wait."

Edited by DavidinKenai on 06/17/2013 23:28:57 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Pump on 06/18/2013 08:02:16 MDT Print View

MSR Hyperflow water filter has a pump. Intended application is water so maybe it would work better, have less contaminants,... 8 ounces but it includes a hollow tube filter and tubing.

Lance Marshall
(Lancem) - F - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Re: Pump on 06/18/2013 13:42:48 MDT Print View

Maybe cannibalize a Coghlan's water filter?

Coghlans water filter

Edited by Lancem on 06/18/2013 13:43:25 MDT.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
MYOG water filter on 06/18/2013 16:45:08 MDT Print View

David,
Roger Caffin tried to steer me in this direction earlier in the thread. Your engineering background is apparent in some of your posts, and in one classic post, Roger laid out practically his whole C.V. for some guys who were suggesting he didn't know what he was talking about. I did check out the aquarium gear on Google and in some stores, including W-mart. However, not being an engineer, I am looking for a complete pump and don't want to tinker around trying to make one. Apologies to all who have posted about check valves and such attempting to help out.

The Heinz ketchup link is really interesting, however. Similar design to the Pennzoil one, but with all the hubbub about bisphenyls, using something sold for food products leaves me a little more comfortable about it. Will check it out.

Jerry,
What drove me to this project was my own experiences over a year apart with two Hyperflows, both returned, and reading about comparable experiences in reviews of the Hyperflow on REI. T'wer it otherwise, I'd just buy a Hyperflow and be done with it. Don't trust it, however.

Lance,
Thank you. Don't know how I missed Coghlan's, and on Amazon too, with multiple searches.
The pump on that one is also very similar to the others mentioned above. That page also led me to 4-5 identical looking ones on Amazon for a "soldier's" filter with different brand names attached, and totally different reviews. But they all seem to agree that it is a ceramic filter and pumps slow, which is what I already have.
But yes, cannibalizing one of the cheaper filters to get the pump might be the way to go.

Think I'll order one or two more of the inexpensive one from Amazon, then bite the bullet and order a Sawyer PointOne. Progress.

Edited by scfhome on 06/18/2013 16:47:56 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: MYOG water filter on 06/18/2013 17:01:20 MDT Print View

That's interesting about Hyperflow, MSR usually has pretty good products

I was thinking that you were re-inventing something that already exists but now I see your point

Okay, my next stupid suggestion is use a 1 liter soda bottle. 1.5 ounces. Maybe 1 ounce if you use a thinner water bottle. Then, just squeeze it. i.e. Sawyer Squeeze. This should be pretty reliable and foolproof.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
pump filters on 06/18/2013 17:26:02 MDT Print View

Jerry,
The reason for the heresy of the pump is to be able to pump water out of seeps and other very shallow sources, especially when wanting to camp at higher altitudes and dry areas like Cochetopa in CO where water is scarce. Also, having suffered Giardia twice, once for a long time, I don't like carrying 'contaminated' bags, bottles or whatever. With a pump, only the source end of the filter, the prefilter and the connecting tube are exposed to a potentially contaminated source, and those items should be easier to segregate somehow from everything else. Probably with a good flexible cap over the source end of the filter cartridge, and a durable separate WP bag for the prefilter and tube. Those are the reasons I'm not 'squeezing' with a Sawyer like most everyone else seems to be. There was a post about some folks on the river in the Frank Church wilderness who got sick just because a water container was allowed to float on the river for a bit. That did it.

Edited by scfhome on 06/18/2013 17:27:50 MDT.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
UPDATE - News good and bad on 06/26/2013 00:13:04 MDT Print View

Decided on the Pennzoil fluid transfer pump because it is ruggeder than the Heinz, the handle can be screwed down to shorten the pump to minimal size for storage, and weighs only 0.6 oz. more than the Heinz.

Obtained a Sawyer "PointOne" filter unit, and it works OK with the Pennzoil fluid transfer pump. The set up was juryrigged, and so was leaky, but with some care could be easily tightened up, reducing the weight of tubing to a minimum, and increasing the flow rate. The flow is not quite so fast with the filter attached, but still faster and easier to pump than a Sweetwater, and at least as fast as a Katadyn (Pur) Hiker.

But the weight - there's the rub. Unfortunately, the many who tout the weight of the PointOne filter at around 2 1/2 ounces, neglect to state whether that is wet or dry. When in use while trekking, the weight will be wet. I found that the wet unit with all excess water blown out of it came in at over 3 1/2 ounces, making it substantially heavier than the pump. Without blowing out the excess water, the weight was up around 4 ounces.

My best estimate is 3 1/2 to 4 ounces, plus the pump, prefilter, and hoses will bring the weight up to at least 8 ounces or more, and that's not counting a WP carry bag with compartment to keep the parts separate, a syringe or squeeze bag said to be needed to backflush the PointOne once a week or so, and misc. repair parts.

The Sweetwater Walk-A-Bout is around 12 ounces and 14 ounces in a sturdy bag with cleaning brush and float. But I've found it to be totally reliable and clogging has never been a problem. Just brush it out, rinse, and it's ready to go. Eventually, the cartridge has to be replaced, but I've never had to. After a number of years, I did so just to be on the safe side. The Katadyn (Pur)Hiker pumps easier and faster, and weighs a couple more ounces. I've not used one for any length of time, so don't know about clogging issues with it.

With all the failure-related issues I've read about on this and other sites about the PointOne, this project doesn't seem worth pursuing at this point. Will stick with the Sweetwater until the industry comes out with something at least as reliable, and significantly lighter. Sorry this thread has not ended well. But that's all folks.

Edited by scfhome on 06/26/2013 00:16:18 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: UPDATE - News good and bad on 06/26/2013 07:51:19 MDT Print View

I used a Katadyn (Pur) filter for years. The plastic finally cracked and started leaking at the body of the pump, where it's at highest pressure, but the failure was gradual.

I got a new one and used it a couple years before switching over to Sawyer Squeeze.

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: UPDATE - News good and bad on 06/26/2013 14:07:13 MDT Print View

I wanted to see how a syring pump would work. So I got a 50ml syrings, two check valves, a tee fitting, and a luer lock to hose barb adaptor to connect it to the syring. The syring by itself is 1oz. Connecdting it all together with a little bit of hose pushed it ot about 1.75oz. However that weight does not include the filter and hose to the filter or any way to attach the filter to your water storage container. It also doesn't include a hose to the water source or a prefilter (which some might consider optional). Adding those items will probably push it to about 4oz.

Now I could save some weight by going to 30ml syring and using 1/32" side wall tubing instead of the 1/16" side wall tubing I used. It might also be possible to find lighter check valves and fittings. Even with those changes i cannot see this getting below 7oz for a complete setup with a we sawye filter. That is close to the weight of the MSR hyperflow.

In testing the syring worked well and without a filter I can pump 1 quart in about 1.5 minutes. The main item slowing me down is the small opening at the end of the syring. I tried drilling it out but ended up drilling off the male part ot the syring luer lock fitting. The threads were still there but that caused air and water leaks. I tried silicone rubber to seal the leak and that worked for a little bit but then failed. Flow rate did inprove though. The 50ml syring looks to be much more durable than any other smaller syring that I have used in the past.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Holes in syringes on 07/01/2013 19:16:26 MDT Print View

Was going to use Scotch "Stretchy" Tape wrapped around the tube. Tape is hard to find in stores, but available on line.

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Made me think of this thread ... on 07/09/2013 17:06:20 MDT Print View

Bulb pump

A coin and a film tube ... made me think of this thread.