Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)
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(livingontheroad) - M
shipping on 05/29/2013 19:41:06 MDT Print View

A transaction is not completed until the purchaser has taken possession of their purchased goods. Up to that point, under law, either party can rescind transactions.

SMD NEVER delivered promised goods to the customer, because one part of a two-component system required to be used together was defective.

IMO, the customer has the right to rescind the transaction, being both dissatisfied with expected quality and service, and the shipping fees should have been refunded.

If it were me, Id probably do a charge-back and file a complaint with Visa or paypal.


At the very least, the VERY least the way a rational person would look at it, about half the shipping had to be refunded for the defective product. (16 oz net/18oz tarp) for the tarp. And thats if you consider them to be two separate items.

Edited by livingontheroad on 05/29/2013 20:11:16 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
promises on 05/29/2013 19:44:57 MDT Print View

The question for me is did I make any promises that weren't delivered.

Absolutely not. In no way at all did Ron make any promises. His company via the word of his employees made a promise.

Does Ron need to keep promises he didn't make ? Nope.

But a SMD representative did write one out, and SMD should make good on it. Which is back to my first post. The SMD rep making promises that the company owner won't honor should cut the check and raise the issue with the boss.

That discussion should have been transparent to the customer.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
_ on 05/29/2013 19:44:57 MDT Print View

Yang, thanks for posting your experience. You were not treated properly by Six Moon.

Six Moon screwed up. Then they compounded their error with poor followthrough and pissy online retorts. And some here manage to blame Yang? Ridiculous.

The greatest irony of it all? When you consider design + craftsmanship + price, Six Moon gear isn't that great. It's not horrible, but it's just barely this side of mediocre. If you're going to have to wait on an order, wait for something from MLD or ZPacks.

Edited by El_Canyon on 05/29/2013 19:46:23 MDT.

Jason Mahler
(jrmahler) - M

Locale: Michigan
Thanks on 05/29/2013 20:19:05 MDT Print View

Yang, your post was very well written and I believe the email chain showed very clearly that you wanted to return the item and wait for the Cuben model and asked if a shipping refund would be given. At that point Brandon said yes. To me, this is cut and dry and SMD should take the hit for their employees mistake and move on. The cottage companies charge a pretty penny for their product and part of the mark up is to account for the inherent risk of their employees doing stupid things like ruining a product or sending a poorly thought out email. It is a shame that SMD not only dealt with this poorly upfront, but then came to the forums and communicated in a way that likely lost them more customers.

I wonder how much this $20 shipping charge has cost SMD today and how much it will end up costing them in the end? I am sure they lost the profit from Yang's future sale and I for one will remain skeptical of their business practices.


On a side note, many people rave about cottage companies on this site and for good reasons. I really value this feedback because it has helped me make great decisions on gear that I would have never known about otherwise (Zpacks, GossamerGear, MLD, Lawsons, Lukes, EE, etc). For this reason, I also appreciate the negative comments because I don't want to waste time ordering from companies that don't want to work with me, especially when spending the amount of money most of us put down for this high end equipment. I'm not saying I won't use SMD in the future, but this may make me more cautious.

Peter Griffith
(petergriffith) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Do the right thing on 05/29/2013 21:15:37 MDT Print View

Ron,
The solution is simple, regardless of who you think is right or wrong. Refund the shipping charges and exceed his expectations by offering free shipping on the cuben tarp when it is available.

Gerry Brucia
(taedawood) - MLife

Locale: Louisiana, USA
What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 21:35:08 MDT Print View

I have been in sales for thirty years and have been the sales manager for a small family owned company for 17 years. Trust me, I have had to eat crow many times. I know it is easy to get frustrated with customers when you are overworked and tired. But most of the time you just have to suck it in and be nice to your customers ALL the time. I have learned that when there is a problem, resolve it as quickly as possible. Nothing endangers a successful resolution more than ignoring it or dragging it out. Regardless of your official policy, the key is to do everything you can to make your customer satisfied and wanting to do business with you again. As a rule, a company will die relying solely on one-time sales; it needs repeat customers to survive.

Within the BP cottage community I have had both good and bad experiences but fortunately most have been very good. Without naming names, I get really psyched when I buy a top-notch quality product and am treated with top-notch courtesy and service. Those two factors are far more important to me than price when it comes to buyer satisfaction.

Even though in my few dealings with Ron in the past I have found him to be rather curt in his communication style, I have been completely satisfied with my dealings with him in terms of both product quality and service. And I am empathetic with Ron because I too have a dangerous tendency to be curt. However, in Yang's case, Ron totally blew it! The product was defective. Everything in Yang's email correspondences showed courtesy on his part. And as has been stated, Yang waited a few weeks without resolution before bringing the issue to this forum. Especially because Brandon agreed to reimburse shipping costs, that should have been done promptly, regardless of Ron's official policy. For a measly $20, Ron lost a good customer and risked his company's reputation.

Having said all that, I encourage folks not to write Ron off either. SMD is not only a cottage manufacturer pioneer but is also one of the foremost innovators in our industry, especially so with the recent addition of Brian Frankle to his team. I just hope, for the sake of SMD, that Ron has chilled out some and learned from this unfortunate experience.

Edited by taedawood on 05/29/2013 21:45:35 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 21:55:09 MDT Print View

A) wow that's a lot of cash for shipping
B) I can't believe this discussion is actually happening over $20. It's not like he was ripped off a cuben tarp...

Yeah, could Ron have handled it better? Probably...but are we really going to throw away a whole company that just yesterday we liked a whole lot over this? I get curt sometimes too...

First Balls and Sunshine getting ripped off make us line up the pitchforks...now this? I think we all need to go take a hike. John, I'm with you on this one.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 22:00:55 MDT Print View

I know people are upset, but lets put down the pitchforks and torches for just a minute. There has to be a better explanation than Ron and SMD ripped off Balls and Sunshine. I can believe the allegations about the bad mesh, and loose thread. I can understand the return policy. But I draw the line at blaming him for taking the water as payback for being forced to return a shipping charge.

--G.B.--

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Six Moon Design on 05/29/2013 22:10:30 MDT Print View

What a

rr

K C
(KalebC) - F

Locale: South West
Awkward...... on 05/29/2013 22:11:31 MDT Print View

-1 for bad customer service and quality control

Kelly G
(KellyDT) - F
laughing on 05/29/2013 22:13:46 MDT Print View

ha! Thanks --G.B.-- for your humerous comment. Lighten the tone on this one. No more pitch forks please, Jen is right.
--K.G.--

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 22:20:51 MDT Print View

"B) I can't believe this discussion is actually happening over $20. It's not like he was ripped off a cuben tarp..."

It's not. It's about a representative of the company indicating that a refund would be provided once the tent was sent back and then the owner of the company indicating that a refund would not be provided after the client had already returned the tent. It is the principal of the matter and makes many us question how the company would respond in a warranty situation and / or whether anyone at the company but Ron should be responding to emails because clearly even the employees aren't clear on the return policy.

Joshua Billings
(Joshua) - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz,Ca
I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 22:54:01 MDT Print View

That black van smd drives around in is awesome. But what goes on in there?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 22:58:39 MDT Print View

You have to sign a non disclosure to get in.

As to what is going on here. The usual. Bla bla, judge, bla, bla, $20,lynch mob, get serious, bla,bla, WTF!?! Now you are up to speed

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 23:06:35 MDT Print View

Davey Jones, you said exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks.

And, to anybody who kept mentioning 20 bucks was not a big deal, all I can say is you and I have very different value systems. I judge my behavior based on right or wrong, not how much money involved. I post it here becasue I think I was treated poorly and I hope you have better experience than mine.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 23:09:44 MDT Print View

Despite apparent years of good reviews and satisfied customers, someone f'ed something up and without a moment's delay, out come the knives. I'm sure people not even involved will be demanding a public apology from Ron soon.

Some community.

Michael Ray
(thaddeussmith) - F
... on 05/29/2013 23:31:13 MDT Print View

the truth revealed

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 23:58:02 MDT Print View

Despite apparent years of good reviews and satisfied customers, someone f'ed something up and without a moment's delay, out come the knives. I'm sure people not even involved will be demanding a public apology from Ron soon.

Some community.


I've been too busy with work to chime in after Ron's response (before it was taken down).

+1 to what Craig said.

While I think on one hand it is important not to rake Yang over the coals, at the same time I think it is important for all of us to remember how GOOD SMD's customer service and product quality has been over the years, and not crucify them either. I doubt extremely that anyone involved with this whole affair, on both sides of the issue, meant any harm or was trying to cause trouble. Who knows if one of the SMD staff were having a bad day, whether someone missed an email. whether one or both sides simply misunderstood what the other wrote. It's a human issue with most likely human misses, and nothing more. I think Yang ought to be given a fair shake, but I also think the same of SMD. Give them a chance! Give them a chance to work things out! A lot of really bad and destructive feelings are being generated here, all around.

Edited by butuki on 05/30/2013 23:55:04 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
WELCOME TO THE THUNDERDOME! on 05/30/2013 00:05:18 MDT Print View

....actually that's all I wanted to say.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/30/2013 07:14:12 MDT Print View

This is a community?

Tongue...meet cheek.