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Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)
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Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
There are holes in the mesh on 06/01/2013 08:52:07 MDT Print View

Regardless of how inconvenient and undermining the fact may be, there are at least 4 holes in the mesh in that photo. Any position which ignores that fact is based on something other than reality. SMD even accepted the mesh was defective.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but not our own set of facts.


Yang Lu
Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 09:13:00 MDT Print View

HW Hiker,

To me, the Brandon's email confirmed pretty clear that it was not Net only. But you could think of other way becasue that was your perception.

A few people offered $20 to me. Again, I appreciate that. One thing you probably did not notice was I had not posted for quite a long time. My membership in this forum has already expired. I had to pay to renew the membership in order to make this single post. If you still think I have been fighting for $20. At least, money wise, I won't gain anything.

So why I made this post? I have mentioned in my first a few posts. All what I wanted to do was to share my personal shopping experience, which was not satisfied by myself and hope you have better experience than me. If you (or anybody) think I made a mistake, use your judgement to decide what mistake I made and avoid that in future. Consider this is my best wish.

I and (I believe) most of people constantly browse this forum to make gear decisions. That was why I like this forum. I completely have no intent to use it to BS or take advatage to any sellers here. I actually had a good will at the beginning to offer to buy a more expensive product from the seller. If nothing went wrong, this was supposed to be my third tent.

Anyway hope you enjoy the weekend.

scree ride
Some logic...finally. on 06/01/2013 09:13:34 MDT Print View

"Also, anyone that uses the super light no-see-um netting knows that the netting gets "scrunched up" and has many of these little areas that look like holes. They are not holes, you just kind of scratch them with your fingernail and they straighten right out. This is a standard trait of this netting, that's it."

Now that makes a lot more sense then the story as it was presented. My eyes aren't that great, but I thought the "holes" were light reflections. There was no logical reasoning behind an industry that relies almost solely on it's reputation sending out what was represented as a grossly inferior product. So far they have not admitted to doing so. All we have for evidence are some photographs that really show nothing.
We are dealing with lightweight products made in small factories. We are also dealing with individuals, not conglomerates, not the man, but people.

Fitz Travels
Send to chaff on 06/01/2013 09:25:36 MDT Print View


With that comment above,This post has officially become chaff material.

Reflections. HA

Edited by fitztravels on 06/01/2013 09:26:41 MDT.

Dave -
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: Some logic...finally. on 06/01/2013 09:29:15 MDT Print View

Scree, you may want to borrow these


Ken T.
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: All up in there
Re: Trashing on 06/01/2013 09:56:16 MDT Print View

You guys don't get credit for that.

Don't get a swelled head.

Ken T.
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: All up in there
Re: Send to chaff on 06/01/2013 10:04:38 MDT Print View

Oh sure, now you guys want an active Chaff forum.

So fickle.

Oh yeah, There are a few people here after reading this thread that I would love to hike with.

Edited by kthompson on 06/01/2013 10:07:36 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Chaff on 06/01/2013 10:30:02 MDT Print View

So if theres a complaint that many here consider legitimate about a favorite cottage manufacturer ... BPLer want it "sent to chaff" ...

After insulting the complainer of course and denying any issues

Thats how it works ;)

Harald Hope

Locale: East Bay
just a point of fact on 06/01/2013 12:38:58 MDT Print View

Just wanted to note something, apparently we have some keyboard lawyers here who are fond of making up laws re contracts etc. It's been stated repeatedly that if a product arrives defective, the company is bound by some law to do x or y, x or y being invisible to me in any other non cottage industry online dealings I've ever had, but apparently clear to those posters who talk about contracts and law and so on.

Here's how it works outside this thread in my experience, which is sadly fairly extensive because one of the hats I've worn for years is computer repair/system administration, which always involves ordering parts online, which in turn always involves RMAs, since parts always fail at a certain percentage (ie, order 10 hard drives, and one, if you are lucky, will be rma'ed immediately), ie, returns of failed or defective merchandise. I have never seen any company I've dealt with offer to pay my shipping for a defective item, although they generally always pay their resending of course, so whoever keeps repeating that needs to get a reality check. If the company explicitly says they will, great, but I've never seen that myself in over 10 years of online ordering. So give it a rest, it's fine to make up stuff so you can sound like you have some idea of whatever, but try to be aware that is all that is going on.

I don't have any hat in this game at all, and I really like cottage industry, at least I like cottage industry that makes their stuff locally with people directly under their control. Companies that chose to outsource their production, or parts of it, to cut costs and boost profits, not so much, I can't tell any difference between them and any other company that outsources production, like eureka, rei, northface, or whatever. Hats off again to those who don't, tarptent, for the time being, western mountaineering, enlightenment, zpacks, mld I assume.

If you don't believe me re reality, check out the largest retailers online, for example. Try ordering from amazon and then see about getting free shipping for returns. Some places do it, but most do not. I ordered some shoes from a newbalance place, they did not fit, I returned them, shipping cost me almost as much as the shoes had. I didn't whine or complain because I understand how this business works more or less.

Stepping back from such pretend contracts and keyboard lawyers, I would note that Ron totally and utterly blew it in any business sense, advertising isn't cheap and goodwill is very hard to develop in these communities, and there is absolutely no way his method should serve as anything other than a clear case of how not to handle customer disputes for any other cottage industry people out there, I'd read this thread very carefully as a classic example of just how quickly good will can turn to poisoned will in an online virtual community, any one, I've seen that happen more times in more contexts than I can remember over the years, and once you lose that good will, you really never get it back. So on a business level, trying to demonstrate being 'right' was a totally idiotic strategy for ron to take, just absolutely stupid, one of the stupidest things I've seen any cottage industry guy do. All he had to do was swallow hard, immediately apologize, you can lie in an email, you don't have to be honest, just say, wow, I am so very sorry for this error/ mixup, let me instantly refund that shipping cost to you, and maybe send a small stuff sack or something. For those 30 dollars, this thread would never have happened, no good will would have been lost, and nothing would have happened to smd beyond losing 20 bucks.

This is particularly important because the customer posted pictures of the shoddy stitching, bunched up seam, and defective screen, which is really a very very bad thing to have people see, it's absolutely certain that ron has lost a lot of business and money from this very bad handling of the situation. I can understand getting annoyed at customers who appear to be trying to sort of play it both ways, but if you were wrong to start with, ie, delivered defective merchandise, then you should just eat it no matter how annoying it is. It would be different if the OP had only tried to return the stuff because he changed his mind, but that's not the case, there were defects.

Treat this, all current and future cottage people, as a great example of how not to run your business if you want to achieve long term success.

Dave -
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: just a point of fact on 06/01/2013 12:41:47 MDT Print View

I've had both Campsaver and Moontrail refund my shipping for errors on their part. Of course, they have my business for life.

Ryan Nakahara
(kife42) - F

Locale: Hawaii
Re: Re: re: SMD on 06/01/2013 12:46:37 MDT Print View

The email says to include a note explaining the problem, along with RMA code 2013-0502A. Are you saying you can't remember if you did this or not?

In the email, SMD is referring to exchanging the NetTent only. That's why it says "shelter" and not "shelters" plural. They never agree to exchanging the tarp.

When SMD says the tarp is "fine", they are not saying it is fine to return it unused. They are saying it looks to be in good condition and does not need to be replaced.

Edited by kife42 on 06/01/2013 13:12:10 MDT.

scree ride
Re: Re: Some logic...finally. on 06/01/2013 12:50:58 MDT Print View

Bowtie come with them?

Dave -
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: Re: Re: re: SMD on 06/01/2013 12:51:48 MDT Print View

I vote for the above as the single funniest post on this thread. "When Brandon wrote in his email that shipping would be refunded, what he really meant was he liked ships and wishes he was sailing."

Harald Hope

Locale: East Bay
yes, above and beyond on 06/01/2013 13:07:32 MDT Print View

Davey Jones, exactly, it's good business to make customers happy, that's precisely my point, it's very very bad business to do what smd did, although they did have one and only one chance to get some good PR in, which he blew, totally, and that was to just make a first posting, something along these lines: this slipped under our radar, and we did have some inner company miscommunications, I apologize, the money has been refunded. The point in your case is that these companies went above and beyond what is normal or required, and thus earned, surprise surprise, a satisfied repeat customer. Smart. SMD, not smart. Totally does not matter if they are right or wrong, which is something that a lot of people in this thread seem confused about, this is business, and there's good and bad business methods. Zpacks picks the good one consistently, and is considered one of the best because of that.

The thread would have ended right there, with such a statement from smd here, and everyone would say, oh, smd is such a good company, great, he follows the discussion, sees his error, and fixes it, in public. You can lie totally when you say this as owner of the company, it's virtual, not face to face, and it's just part of doing business, even if you hate the client or whatever, gritting your teeth and swallowing hard is just part of the cost of doing business sometimes.

Sometimes it's totally irrelevant who is right or wrong, you just eat it, that's how it goes. I have to eat stuff all the time as a freelancer, and massively larger amounts than $20. All of the rest of this thread would not have happened, it would have vanished, no ill will generated, no endless discussions and made up laws, no picking apart to see who is guilty or innocent, and why and how, just a satisfied transaction.

That should have happened before this even got the posting stage, it's just not worth being right sometimes, in business, you have to snip off the ego at times and just agree, bad press and bad publicity is very damaging, far more damaging than an annoyed ego.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 13:40:06 MDT Print View


Ken T.
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: All up in there
Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 13:41:56 MDT Print View

Does Yang Lu now regret renewing his BPL subscription? Could have posted to SMD's Facebook page. Free. I am amused and amazed that this thread has gone 18 pages.

Scree is excellant at stirring the pot. Hope he's having as much fun as I am reading his posts.

Eric Chan should just write one master post that he can reuse over and over as they are always pretty much the same.

Davey Jones should keep his nose out if this as this is American situation and we don't need any foreigners.

You too Miguel. Nothing to be gained here. Don't bother.

Actually this all should be handled between Ron and Yang. Looks like it has been.

I was missing Chaff. But here it is.

Dave -
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Up there
Re: Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 14:07:17 MDT Print View

I think Miguel is American.

Zorg, that is pretty racist.

Willie Evenstop
(redmonk) - F

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/01/2013 14:11:25 MDT Print View

Glad to hear SMD worked it out with Yang.

They have been around a while, probably just one big weeks long miscommunication with an 18 page and growing Internet commentary.

Edit: Not Glad to read Yangs post below. My bad. I thought something changed.


Edited by redmonk on 06/01/2013 14:18:18 MDT.

Yang Lu
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/01/2013 14:17:06 MDT Print View

Just to confirm I did not hear anything from SMD.

"Glad to hear SMD worked it out with Yang."

Tan Ngo
(nmtan) - MLife
RE:SMD on 06/01/2013 14:22:16 MDT Print View

First I want to say hello to everyone...been a long time reader.

I've been following this thread as I am interested in seeing the outcome. Before reading this thread I was considering getting the Skyscape x tent from SMD as soon as it become available again but now I am having second thought. I wouldn't want to deal with the potential headache in dealing with SMD base on what I am getting from this thread.

For those SMD fanboys(you know who you are :)), you are not doing the company any favor by blindly supporting it. You would only encourage substandard QC and customer service and in the long run will destroy the company. I can understand the need to support the cottage industry but not at the expense of quality products and customer service.