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Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 01:18:21 MDT Print View

Hello everyone,

I learned Six Moon Design (SMD) from this forum and ordered a tent recently but my experience with them was rather disappointed. I’d like to share my experience and hope other customers won’t experience what I experienced. I attached the email communications at the end of this post to make sure I did not make up anything.

I originally was going to buy a cuben Haven NetTent for a recent trip. But since they did not have cuben version in stock, I ordered the regular version and hoped to use it ASAP.

After I received the Tarp and NetTent, I noticed two issues (see attached photos):

the NetTent had some holes on it:
Holes on Net Tent

the stitching on the tarp is not clean:
stitches

So I contacted them. Here were what I learned:

1. For 3 business days (April 29 to May 1) I had heard nothing from them. After sending another email and calling them once, I finally got a response on the forth business day (May 2). You judge how fast the communication was.

2. In May 2’s email, Brandon Moak indicated that if the tent was used it would no longer be returnable. So it looked like I was pretty lucky, because I found the holes in my tent before I use it; otherwise if I found the defectives after I used it even once, I won’t be able to return it. I am curious how Six Moon Design (SMD) stands behind their product? If you order any items from them, you must check them REALLY REALLY carefully; otherwise, if you accidently used them and find the problem later, not sure how they are going to replace your defective items.

3. They agreed the Net Tent should be replaced, which was good. For the stitching issue in the photo on the tarp, the solution Six Moon Design (SMD) offered was: “…if you snip those off the problem will be solved…”. So, as a customer who received the brand new tarp, the first thing they wanted me to do, was to snip the stitches. I am not sure after I cut those threads if the remaining stitches would still be durable. Anyway, this was how they want a customer to do with a new tarp.

4. Now, it came to the interesting part. Because of the defective Net Tent, I was not able to use the tent for my soon coming trip. Then I can wait for the cuben version until it is in stock. In my email below I clearly communicated this point, and on May 2, Brandon Moak confirmed they would reimburse the shipping cost.

5. I sent both tarp and net tent back to Six Moon Design (SMD) and left a note in the package. To my surprise, when I checked my credit card statement, they did not reimburse my shipping at all and did not even bother to contact me after seeing my notes in the package.

6. After I emailed them, Ron Moak used two sentences to explain why they did not reimburse me the shipping cost “You didn't get a full refund because you canceled the order. We would have swapped with correct gear refunded shipping.” He obviously did not feel sorry for sending me a defective item and delayed my use, also completely ignored what Brandon Moak had agreed.

7. Now, I ended up losing $21 shipping cost and had no new tent at all. This was how Six Moon Design (SMD) took care of its customer. I am feeling lucky I did not order the expensive cuben product from Six Moon Design (SMD). Who knows what could happen if something goes wrong.


***************************************

You didn't get a full refund because you canceled the order. We would have swapped with correct gear refunded shipping.

Ron Moak
------------------------------
Six Moon Designs
http://www.sixmoondesigns.com

On May 14, 2013, at 12:47 AM, "Yang Lu" wrote:

> Hi Brandon,
>
> I saw my credit card got refund for $350. I thought you were going to
> refund me the shipping cost (please look at your previous reply)
> because this was a defective product. So the total refund should be $371.6.
>
> I remember I left a note in the package. Can you please explain why I
> only received $350?
>
> Yang
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: store@sixmoondesigns.com [mailto:store@sixmoondesigns.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 3:57 PM
> To: Yang Lu
> Subject: RE: Six Moon Designs: A couple flaws on my tent
>
> Yang,
>
> After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs.
> The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and
> only weight 1 lb.
>
> Please send to
>
> Six Moon Designs
> 8250 SW Nimbus Ave
> Beaverton, OR 97008
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Moak
> --
> Six Moon Designs
> Innovative Ultralight Adventure Gear
> www.sixmoondesigns.com
> 503.430.2303
>
>
>> Brandon,
>>
>> None of them have been used. So we are fine. I am thinking to return
>> them all and buy them later when your cuben version is in stock. But
>> since this is a material defective and not my fault, it does not make
>> sense for me to pay for the shipping to return them. Can you afford
>> the shipping cost? Do you have a way to issue return label? Or you
>> can reimburse the shipping after you receive them?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Yang
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: store@sixmoondesigns.com [mailto:store@sixmoondesigns.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 8:12 AM
>> To: Yang Lu
>> Subject: RE: Six Moon Designs: A couple flaws on my tent
>>
>> Yang,
>>
>> The shelter will not be returnable after it is used. The Haven Tarp
>> should be fine. Looking at the image it just appears that there are
>> some loose threads that were not snipped off after being sewn, if you
>> snip those off the problem will be solved. The Haven NetTent can be
>> returned for repair or exchange. We will look at the issue more
>> closely once we get the shelter in.
>>
>> Please use the RMA code 2013-0502A Include a note that says that
>> you are sending the shelter back due to some small holes.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Brandon Moak
>> --
>> Six Moon Designs
>> Innovative Ultralight Adventure Gear
>> www.sixmoondesigns.com
>> 503.430.2303
>>
>>
>>> Hi Brandon,
>>>
>>> I am still waiting for your instructions... I am thinking I should
>>> get a replacement for both the Tarp and NetTent.
>>>
>>> They are still brand new. But I probably need to use them this weekend.
>>> Is
>>> it ok for replacement after I use them?
>>>
>>> Please let me know how to proceed.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Yang
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: store@sixmoondesigns.com [mailto:store@sixmoondesigns.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 9:42 AM
>>> To: Yang Lu
>>> Subject: Re: Six Moon Designs: A couple flaws on my tent
>>>
>>> Yang,
>>>
>>> I am replying so that you can send photos.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Brandon Moak
>>> --
>>> Six Moon Designs
>>> Innovative Ultralight Adventure Gear www.sixmoondesigns.com
>>> 503.430.2303
>>>
>>>
>>>> This is an enquiry e-mail via http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/ from:
>>>> Yang Lu
>>>>
>>>> Hi, I received the Haven Tarp and Tent, Order #10483. I set it up
>>>> today and noticed a couple flaws. One bigger issue is there are a
>>>> few small holes on the net; also the stitching is not very clean.
>>>>
>>>> Can you reply me so that I can send you the photos?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Yang

Thaddaeus Wharton
(Thadjw) - MLife
Sorry to hear this on 05/29/2013 08:47:02 MDT Print View

I recently got a Whisper pack and communication w them was brief but satisfactory. Hope they make it right.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
shame on 05/29/2013 09:00:08 MDT Print View

That is a shame to see. Seems like Ron would want to do what is necessary to get you a non defective product and would also want to sell you the more expensive tarp.

I would email again and ask why I am now dealing with a different person when the first person clearly stated that the refund would be part of the deal.

Some would say its petty but I don't think so. He needs to stand behind what his employees(family) promise.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: shame on 05/29/2013 09:03:47 MDT Print View

It's possible that there was an internal breakdown in communication. I find that with polite but persistent communication, most businesses will behave reasonably. Hopefully there will be a favorable resolution for you and SMD.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 09:41:12 MDT Print View

Looks like they explicitly said they could refund shipping, and then didn't.

Odd that the person handling the issue changed at that point.

It sucks, but if I promised free shipping, and then it didn't happen, I would eat the cost out of pocket to make things right. If the owner does not support his employee handling the support issues in a certain way, they need to work that out between them, not put the customer in the middle of their issue.

SMD has a new pack coming out, and being known as swindlers is bad for business.

Honor your word, cut the check, preserve your company's reputation.

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/29/2013 09:45:24 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 09:52:37 MDT Print View

Did you post this on multiple forums as well?

You have a legitimate complaint about the holes, but not the threads. And I think you screwed up by cancelling the order - that's your fault. You also are wrong thinking that SMD is responsible for your schedule - you should've ordered this gear long ago and tested it before taking it on a trip. And you are wrong-headed about return policies - SMD is not REI, and SMD clearly states their policy.

But I still don't understand why SMD didn't refund the shipping - sounds like you just need another email/phone call.

In general, I dislike people who plss&moan about their purchase on a public forum because of trivial issues. Call a therapist instead.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 09:58:08 MDT Print View

I think the issue is clear or perhaps you lack reading comprehension.

He was told in writing that his shipping would be refunded and then it wasn't.

Barry P
(BarryP) - F

Locale: Eastern Idaho (moved from Midwest)
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 10:20:06 MDT Print View

My purchase with SMD was great but indirect. I saw on the Prolite Gear site they were selling a Swift backpack for $110 that INCLUDED the belt. And they shipped for free! And Prolite shipped it to my brother as a birthday gift from me. When my brother got it, there was no belt. Prolite got a hold of SMD. It was tricky because SMD was just moving into their bigger building (April 2013 time frame). But Prolite and SMD got my brother the belt for free. Thanx Prolite and SMD!

The terms of agreement from your emails: “The Haven NetTent can be
>> returned for repair or exchange.”

And you opted for cancelling. Most companies require you to pay the shipping back when cancelling so this is normal.

-Barry
-The mountains were made for Teva’s

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 10:25:43 MDT Print View

That is unfortunate. It seems pretty straight forward. I was going to suggest a charge back, but I then realized what your looking for is the shipping charges you paid to ship it back to them.

I find it odd how some people on here get overly defensive of cottage manufacturers when they don't pull through with customer service. SMD should make this right or reap a well deserved reduction in reputation.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 10:37:39 MDT Print View

Zorg,

I do not like your post at all. As Davey said, you better read the story before post anything.

What made you think I posted this on multiple forums? Are you working for SMD? But you reminded me, maybe I should do that!

You, and SMD certainly do not understand transactions have time constraint. If you ordered something, but the seller failed to deliver the product in an expected time window, you seemed to be really happy to wait for ANY period of time?! Do you?

Why REI is mentioned here? The refund has clearly been confirmed by SMD!

Am I whining about anything? I am sharing my experience and hope others won't experience the same thing. If you dislike, just stop posting.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 10:44:15 MDT Print View

Barry, thanks for the input.

In my case, Brandon had already agreed to my point of purchasing a cuben (but unfortunately it is not in stock). Can you tell me what I should do if I do not cancel it for now? Should I let them keep my money until the cuben is in stock?

Erik Dietz
(erikdtz)

Locale: Los Angeles
I agree on 05/29/2013 11:13:46 MDT Print View

Yang,

You are correct in thinking that because you paid for a product and were given a time frame for delivery that it should be delivered without defects as close to that time frame as possible. If the company you're buying from takes returns and you're not happy with your purchase then by all means, send it back. A couple things you could do:

1. Call your bank and ask them to reverse the charge. Probably not what I would do since it would ruin your relationship with SMD but if you feel like you've been charged in error and don't care about continuing business with them then go for it.
2. If you want to purchase the cuben version, ask them to give you free shipping. That should offset what you paid to send it back.

Often enough somebody will post a disagreement they had with some cottage manufacturer and then said company will post what actually happened. I'm not saying you're being dishonest, just that we are only getting one side of this disagreement. I've bought several things from Ron and always had a pleasant experience.

Erik

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: I agree on 05/29/2013 12:13:45 MDT Print View

Yang,
Thank you for posting your experience. This is the main reason for me being a chicken when it comes to ordering online from businesses that do not have a physical store near my home.

I order online from REI all the time, I can return to the store, or REI free shipping, similar with Zappos, they have no-questions-asked return policy, to gain consumer confidence.

Ian Kyle
(Ieo)
This seems to be the norm for me... on 05/29/2013 12:22:49 MDT Print View

I'm not sure what it is, but I seem to have a problem like this with just about every cottage manufacturer I deal with. I read nothing but rave reviews here and elsewhere, and then when it comes my turn to deal with them It's a totally different story. I won't name names, but I've had one basically tell me I'm an idiot for being interested in water resistant down because "it's just a gimmick"....I've had one call me a liar when I sent an email about an item missing from my order....I've had one tell me I'm blind when I called about some runs in my tent netting right out of the box.

I WOULD say the common factor must be me...but I work (quite successfully) in healthcare - I'm literally a professional at sugarcoating things and being pleasant to strangers. Just my luck I guess....

What I'm getting at is these people are great at what they do, but they don't necessarily have customer service training/experience. In the end, it's their loss as ultimatley we (the consumer) pay the bills.

Charles Tufankjian
(ctufankjian)

Locale: New Hampshire
Tough To Tell on 05/29/2013 12:28:38 MDT Print View

I run an online retail business, where every order is a custom order. It's difficult to tell if there was bad customer service at play here, or there was just a simple communication error between employees. From the conversation that you posted, I would guess that returning shipping cost is not what SMD typically does, so they probably had that aspect wrong. I'm thinking that when you brought that to their attention, they SHOULD have gotten apologetic, and refunded you the remainder. Some people are a bit shorter than others when communicating on the internet. Especially the ones who are at the helm of cottage businesses with tons of emails and rough overhead. Obviously because of my bias, I'm inclined to advocate the retailer, but I definitely see where you're coming from. My Philosophy as a consumer is that sometimes you have to take a step back, think about the product that you're buying, what it's for, and check-out the situation.

scree ride
(scree)
work it out on 05/29/2013 12:33:23 MDT Print View

I have a great tent and would have no qualms about ordering from Six Moons Design again. I was hoping to see something new in their pack line...
Send another e-mail. Cottage industries have their quirks as well as communication breakdowns. So far you are the first negative review I've seen out of a long line of positive reviews. No doubt things go wrong sometimes. We all experience it and sometimes are at fault ourselves. This is a very reputable company, with excellent quality control. Do you think maybe it might be a fluke?

josh jordan
(jjchgo) - M
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 12:36:46 MDT Print View

$10-$20 in shipping charges vs. negative publicity in a very small market...

Sumi Wada
(DetroitTigerFan) - F

Locale: Ann Arbor
Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 12:41:09 MDT Print View

My thoughts, FWIW.

I read your post as well as the email thread. I don't know that you were as "clear" as you seem to think in expressing what your specific needs and expectations were. You say things like "I probably need..." and "I'm thinking to..." I think your post was much clearer than your emails.

I'm not even clear on *which* shipping costs you wanted them to refund. The shipping costs from the original purchase? Or the cost of returning the items?

Brandon's response, essentially one sentence, reads like someone answering without having reviewed the entire email thread. It's vague enough that I can see how you would interpret it the way you did but, otoh, if he hadn't clearly understood what you expected and thought you were just sending in the nest for replacement (which is what I suspect), his response would have been appropriate as well.

Bottom line? I don't think Brandon confirmed his agreement to what you think you asked for. That said, I agree that SMD shows poorly in their customer service skills. They don't need to be an "REI" to have the curtesy to respond to their customers without sounding like they're texting from their smartphones.

What would I do? If it were me, I'd chalk it up to lesson learned. I might send off one last email for satisfaction but I wouldn't expect anything.

Brian Johns
(bcutlerj) - M

Locale: NorCal
Communication Breakdown on 05/29/2013 12:41:19 MDT Print View

Good luck getting it right. I think it sounds like one hand did not know what the other was doing / had agreed to at SMD. Pick up the phone to discuss it without room for error and without waiting for the next email to get to explain yourself.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 13:52:03 MDT Print View

na

Edited by JohnAbela on 06/13/2013 06:05:50 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 13:57:13 MDT Print View

You have trouble with reading comprehension as well.

The OP is not really happy with the quality - meh, I agree, threads are not a big issue (the netting is) - but the issue is the refund. Not whether Six Moons should offer a refund but that they did. The issue is indicating that the refund would take place and then reneging on the refund.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 14:00:22 MDT Print View

na

Edited by JohnAbela on 06/13/2013 06:08:41 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 14:08:58 MDT Print View

Given this thread, I can only assume that his refund will be processed.

Squeeky wheel.

Rich J
(PNWhiker) - F

Locale: Pacific NW
Thoughts on 05/29/2013 14:45:08 MDT Print View

Sorry to hear of the issues.

It's not an excuse but I do note that SMD is growing fast. They just moved into a new location and have outsourced a lot of their production. Perhaps it is just a growing pain.

You may wish to consider zpacks (zpacks.com). I've made several purchases from them and they will just bend over backwards to make absolutely sure you are happy. I'd trust them in a nanosecond. They are also more reasonably priced than SMD.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 15:17:20 MDT Print View

John Abela,

I think you completely missed my point, but I am not interested in arguing with you becasue you were right that I have no time to waste.

In your last paragraph you mentioned about $20. If I wrote this long post for 20 bucks, I did not see your post was shorter. What is your post for? You have too much free time also?

In your opinion, if I should not care about the 20 bucks, why SMD should care about keeping it?

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 15:19:16 MDT Print View

Davey Jones, you got exactly my point. I appreciated.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 15:22:44 MDT Print View

na

Edited by JohnAbela on 06/13/2013 06:09:22 MDT.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 15:36:00 MDT Print View

I am just sharing my experience, not destorying anything. I am curious why you are so sensitive.

As a matter of fact, I did send one last email a couple weeks ago to expresss my concern, but obviously SMD ignored me. So tell me how to work out with the company?





>>> You have too much free time also?

Yes, my comment was totally worth 20 bucks of my time.

Pettily little complaint that should have been worked out with the company.

What, you really think that you posting two pictures and a few email correspondence are going to all of a sudden be a big red flag to the hiking community regarding one of the oldest cottage companies out there? You really think think that? I sure hope not.

Or, is it more that you just wanted to post this in hopes of SMD seeing this and thinking "oh gosh, this one guy is going to destroy our reputation at BPL, we should give this guy his 20 bucks back". HAH get real.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 16:40:41 MDT Print View

I think Yang is posting on BPL precisely because he cannot seem to work out the problem with SMD. That's what I would do if I was having an issue with a cottage manufacturer and they were no longer responding to me, since at least here the cottage manufacturer would have to pay attention and sort out the problem. In Yang's last post he said his last email was "a couple of weeks ago", which suggests that Yang waited quite a reasonable amount of time before taking the step to post here.

I'm not sure, but I think Yang doesn't live in the States, and so I think he has the extra trouble of dealing with a business that probably doesn't trust customers from abroad, especially from where I think Yang comes from. Yang might also not be a native English speaker (I'm just guessing... perhaps I'm wrong). How this translates to the attitudes at SMD I have no idea. But it could possibly be a factor. Over the years I've dealt with lots of American businesses that treated someone from outside the States with overly cautious or downright nasty reluctance. I'm not saying that SMD is like that, but who knows?

A lot of the responses in this thread are being pretty nasty themselves. In the same way that businesses ought to interact with courtesy to customers, I think showing courtesy to someone here in the forums, by assuming they are innocent before accusing them of doing something unsavory, is a basic starting point when talking to anyone. Some of you might have no problem with throwing away money and not caring that a business deal wasn't properly worked out, but I'm sure many of you would. What would you do in Yang's case? Why should he bear the brunt of the problem? And why is SMD's reputation more important than his?

How about we take the stance of some of the other posters here who are at least giving Yang the benefit of the doubt? The problem could be any number of things, both on SMD's part and on Yang's part. But we don't know. So why automatically take SMD's side? It's not easy to post in a public forum where you can be subjected to all the criticism that is already being shown here. Takes courage.

Edited by butuki on 05/30/2013 23:53:48 MDT.

scree ride
(scree)
503-430-2303 on 05/29/2013 16:41:38 MDT Print View

503-430-2303

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 16:54:16 MDT Print View

Miguel, thanks for the message. It must have taken you quite awhile to write them down. I appreciate it. I actually live in Los Angeles. As you said English was indeed my second language.

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
Black and White on 05/29/2013 17:00:22 MDT Print View

Yang is right to expect a refund. He has asked for it repeatedly with no success. SMD is wrong. Giving shitty customer service is their own chosen peril. Yang's post here is warranted given the preceding events. Like it or not, i does impact their reputation . . . and it should!.

Nuff said,

Derrick

Ron Moak
(rmoak) - F
SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 17:02:44 MDT Print View

na

Edited by rmoak on 05/29/2013 18:55:47 MDT.

J P
(jpovs) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 17:21:12 MDT Print View

-

Edited by jpovs on 06/15/2014 14:23:11 MDT.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 17:28:03 MDT Print View

So Ron, what I hear you saying is: when Yang Lu purchases the Cuben version he will get free shipping on that purchase, thus making up the refund on the shipping for the previous transaction.
It seams fair for you and fair for him.





Though Yang Lu might have a bad taste in his mouth about the quality of the products (given the pictures shown) and just wanted to return them all because of it. And I can see how he might expect to have the return shipping covered regardless if he orders something else or not. But it is Ron's business and he has the final say.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 17:31:09 MDT Print View

Ron,

I've stalked your website more than a few times and am impressed with SMD's innovative designs.

Maybe extending Yang a line of credit towards the next purchase may be a way to find some middle ground?

Good luck with your future endeavors either way.

On a more positive note, apparently John Abela is the official Lorax of the cottage industry.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 05/29/2013 17:32:50 MDT Print View

"Threads - omg... grow up. Just cut them if you think a few long threads are the end of the world. A simple piece of thread you think is worth ripping on a company for... sheesh. Perhaps you just need to forget about the whole hiking thing... and maybe take up... oh, I do not know.... hmm, knitting maybe?"

LOL some one does not like other peoples quality expectations... and BTW depending on which threads are being shown this and the way in which it was sewn cutting those threads could be a bad Idea it snot like its an end thread it is a poorly sewn seam not one I would want to cut especially off some thing I just bought I cant return after one use. That thing better be perfect when I get it with there return policy..

"Zor *perfectly* nailed the perfect response to your entire situation: "you should've ordered this gear long ago and tested it before taking it on a trip"

When some one order their gear is irrelevant, especially if they discussed the time frame in which it was needed. If SMD felt like you did they could have always said "time frames are the time frames you do what you feel is necessary" but they didn't they agreed to work around his situation.

"You wrote a 1200+ word post for pretty much nothing more than an issue with a bug net that had a few small holes in it, and 20 bucks in shipping fees."

Its called fully explaining the situation as to not be mistaken. and to be honest he was quite polite with his complaints. VALID COMPLAINTS

BTW I still have confidence that this is a simple misunderstanding and will be made right. most of these guys are good guys in my experiences.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 17:37:21 MDT Print View

"And I can see how he might expect to have the return shipping covered regardless if he orders something else or not. But it is Ron's business and he has the final say."

Ahh, that's where we will disagree. The consumer has the final say - one way or the other. I love SMD products personally and have bought a couple things from them. I most likely will in the future too. But, overall I have to agree that this is pretty poor customer service. Regardless of whether a refund was "deserved" or not, SMD committed to it. Customer service 101 - Manage your customer's expectations - Do what you say.

Ryan

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
If you want to get legal on 05/29/2013 17:44:38 MDT Print View

Ron,

With all due respect I don't think your legal analysis would get much mileage under objective legal consideration.

SMD delivered a defective product which is a breach of its contract with Yang. The breach is SMD's, not his, and SMD should bear the cost of putting Yang in the place he would have been had you not breached. Accordingly, SMD should reimburse his shipping. Any other legal construction is a convenient contrivance.

Quite apart from your legal obligations, I would think good customer service dictates something a little more courteous and genuine than what he is receiving.

I have too have received defective products from cottage companies which I've learned of on this site and, you may be interested in knowing, the reasonableness of their response starkly contrasts with the tediousness of yours.

Derrick

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
standards on 05/29/2013 17:52:15 MDT Print View

defective product

Seller covers return shipping, and gives refund if that is desired.
Seller covers return shippina and ships out replacement if that is desired.

cut and dry

What customer intends to do in future, has no bearing on how things ought to be handled.

Non-defective product, customer pays return shipping.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 18:01:28 MDT Print View

Hmmm not the response I was thinking would be posted by Ron.. Especially over such a small sum of money. And having read all the dialog between the two parties(which ran is not contesting) it would be my understanding that I was getting a refund for the total amount regardless of whether or not the future purchase was going to take place.

" After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs. The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and only weight 1 lb."

No where in that response does Brandon Moak state that this refund is contingent on Yang getting the cuben tarp.

Given the dialog I don't see Rons response as relevant to the given situation or acceptable.

"Neither party to a transaction can be obligated if the transaction is unenforceable by either party."

If you want to say that then fine but the transaction being discussed is that of the refund not the future purchase of the cuben tar. Which is why its important to either deal with all this stuff your self or stand by what your employees say as if its your own mouth saying it.

Unfortunately this thread put a bad taste I my mouth about smd and Rons response made it worse for me. I doubt I will be doing business with a cottage gear maker that wants to act like a lawyer over 20 dollars worth of shipping.

Thanks for the post Yang

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Customer Satisfaction 101 on 05/29/2013 18:06:17 MDT Print View

Win the battle with a customer and lose the war.

Some of my thoughts on the cottage industry I wrote a while back...Open Letter to the Backpacking Cottage Industry

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 18:16:57 MDT Print View

So I just wanted to share this, and then I will be done.

I am by no means intending to attack the OP of this discussion. Rather I am trying to get across my feelings that this type of posts do not even (in my opinion) belong here at BPL, especially such minut issues such as this one.


Let us break this down. There are three issues that the OP brought up, and two of those three issues are really only one issue.

The first issue should not even be an issue. That issue is the defective product. If this post was about nothing more than the defective product none of this hoopla would even be taking place. Why? Because SMD did right by that issue, they replaced the defective product. I buy thousands of dollars of gear a year from mainstream and cottage companies and I on a monthly basis have to send gear back because it is defective or the order is wrong in some way. This does not dismiss any wrong doings, but SMD has done *nothing* wrong in regards to this first issue - they did right, they replaced the defective product.

SO that leaves issues #2 and #3. When it comes down to it, this is nothing more than a he-said, he-said, he-said issues... all over twenty bucks. Yeah, there have been a few times each year when I have had to pay to send one of the products I bought back to the company - it sucks, I admit it. But it does not justify me coming onto BPL and smack talking the company about it. So, keeping in mind that issues #1 is for all and intent purposes a mute issue, all of this is just over a stupid little he-said-this-and-he-said-that-and-i-said-this issue... for a lousy twenty bucks. Is BPL really the kind of place that we want to turn into a place where this kind of posts about this kind of an issue is to become? How petty of an issue is this folks. For twenty bucks you can hardly buy a weekends worth of Mountain House, or buy and have shipped a set of stakes for a shelter, or whatever. Yeah, times are tough for some folks, but (and again) the last thing I want BPL to turn into is a website for a bunch of crying about interactions between hikers and cottage companies over twenty bucks.

To me, BPL is just not the place for these "Very unpleasant experience" unless there is a very solid case to be made against the company. And in the vast majority of cases I have seen that has just never been the case - including this one, as I have herein (hopefully) presented. If SMD had not done right by replacing the defective product, ok give it some serious consideration before hitting the "post message" button. But that is just not the case here.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 18:19:47 MDT Print View

I like the Tom Peters "In Search of Excellence" approach to business-- don't just meet the customers expectations, exceed them instead. Some business folk allow themselves to become embattled and create "rules" that are counter to good customer service policy. A very small percentage of customers can be very hard to deal with, but you don't want to punish 98% of your customers with policies designed to handle the problematic 2%. Rules like, "you can't return it if it was used" taken as an absolute just paints both parties into a corner. Each issue must be taken on a case by case basis.

Online sales are always on shaky ground compared to brick and mortar transactions. Neither party has eye contact with the other and written communications can sometimes seem terse, even angry, when that may have not been the author's intention. Communication is key to keeping the customers trust and delays in communication tend to break any good will.

I am at a loss to the cost of the shipping. $21 seems steep unless it was international or perhaps that was both ways? I would have sent a UPS call tag to the customer. In many cases the cost of shipping is a minor issue compared to the time and effort to ship the item. It seems like a simple thing to the vendor who does it daily, but many people aren't used to shipping and don't know the options or have the materials to ship an item. You can't go to the post office and get a Tyvek envelope. They have Priority Flat Rate boxes only on hand; the envelopes must be ordered on line.

I'm reminded of the issue with the POE air pad where the CEO got into it with the customer on the forums here. It certainly did damage to POE's public relations and in fact, they aren't around any longer. It would have been far better to take the customer's side, override a clerk's poor decision and just send the guy a new mattress. The minute a business person gets a chip on their shoulder they lose, regardless if the customer has a valid complaint. It just ain't worth it!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
place on 05/29/2013 18:34:05 MDT Print View

this is PRECISELY the place to bring up such issues ... we have all the BPLers cheering on certain companies, going RAH RAH RAH buy this and that and how theres great service ... you CANNOT ask to censor the problems should they arise

unless you want to turn BPL into a one stop advertising promotion where poor experiences cant be posted because certain members dont like it

as to the original situations ... small companies live and die by their customers ... make sure they are happy

its that simple ;)

Ron Moak
(rmoak) - F
Re: If you want to get legal on 05/29/2013 18:47:12 MDT Print View

na

Edited by rmoak on 05/29/2013 18:55:05 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
SMD on 05/29/2013 18:49:59 MDT Print View

Defective product, company pays for return shipping. It's pretty simple.

And I agree with others that the OP attempted to communicate and have the valid issues addressed by the company prior to posting here. We need to hear about negative experiences (i.e. Big Sky) in addition to the usual positive experiences with cottage gear makers.

Ron Moak's response (above) and customer service in this case is sorely lacking, and suggests caution when dealing with that company.

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
My experiences with SMD have been pleasant on 05/29/2013 18:52:20 MDT Print View

I, too, once received what was apparently a defective product from SMD. It was a pack, and after the second trip with it I noticed that the stitching between the pack body and extension collar was starting to unravel.

I emailed Ron about this, just for his information--it was only a few stitches and I intended to do the repair myself. To my surprise, he offered to repair it for free, even though the pack had already been used. I originally said I'd bring the pack in--I live east of Portland and Ron lives just west of Portland. I decided, however, that I'd rather ship the pack than buck the horrible traffic through downtown Portland, so I mailed the pack. I didn't even think of asking Ron to pay the shipping charges. I received the pack back a few days later, with no charge to me either for Ron's shipping it to me (I could have driven over there, after all) or for the repair. The repair has held up, too!

The return policy published on SMD's website clearly states that shipping is at the expense of the customer.
http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/about-us/policies.html
"... if for some reason your purchase from Six Moon Designs does not meet your needs, you may return any unused items within 30 days for a full refund (less shipping charges)."
It appears to me that the original offer of free return shipping, contrary to the firm's published policy, was made only because the customer ordered a replacement item. Since the customer canceled the order for the replacement, he voided that agreement. That leaves the original published return shipping policy as the default.

I urge everyone to check any vendor's website for their complete policies before ordering anything online. This is just plain common sense, along with making sure they have a phyiscal address, a working phone and that their odering site is secure. If you disagree with the vendor's return policies, don't order! Expecting instant return of emails or phone messages (I've rarely had this from big corporations, either) from a one or two person firm is extremely unrealistic. Most of these small firms have no employees to cover such things while they're gone.

No, I have nothing to do with SMD except as an extremely infrequent customer. In fact, I've bought only two items from them, one being the above-mentioned pack, still going strong after 7 years. I tried one of their tents for a year and it didn't suit my sleeping style, so I sold it. There was nothing wrong with the tent; it just didn't work out for me. The current owner loves it, although he claims he's still finding my dog's hair in it!

I do know that SMD has an outstanding reputation in the backpacking community, and it appears to me that this gentleman's problem has quite a bit to do with misunderstanding the communications and possibly taking insufficient time to check the firm's policies before ordering. Whatever your opinon as to what a firm's policy "should be," it's their standard published policy that governs the buy/sell contract.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Wording on 05/29/2013 18:53:59 MDT Print View

Seems like the problem lies in the interpretation of " does not meet your needs"

Edited for spelling.

Edited by Kat_P on 05/29/2013 18:56:24 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 19:00:32 MDT Print View

Thanks for the explanation Ron.

You explained your view well.

Your employees can not be trusted to be acting on behalf of your business. The agreements they make have no value, because you don't honor their word as the company.

Oh, and you gouge in shipping and would rather keep $20 than the word a family member gave to a customer.

Nice.

Edited by redmonk on 05/29/2013 19:11:20 MDT.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Re: If you want to get legal on 05/29/2013 19:03:08 MDT Print View

"If someone can show me where we've broken a promise, let me know and I'll certainly make good." Ron Moak

Below is the email from your employee/family stating to expect a refund. That is a broken promise. Its in writing.


From: store@sixmoondesigns.com [mailto:store@sixmoondesigns.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 3:57 PM
> To: Yang Lu
> Subject: RE: Six Moon Designs: A couple flaws on my tent
>
> Yang,
>
> After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs.
> The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and
> only weight 1 lb.
>
> Please send to
>
> Six Moon Designs
> 8250 SW Nimbus Ave
> Beaverton, OR 97008
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Moak

Philip Marshall
(philthy) - MLife
defective products on 05/29/2013 19:05:26 MDT Print View

I'm not sure how consumer protection laws are in the US, but where there is a defective product, the manufacturer should surely pay for return shipping. In a case like this, where the tent would not be fit for purpose straight out of the box (holes in the netting meaning insects could enter), the manufacturer should try to put the consumer back in the position they were in prior to purchasing the item. I don't believe any future intention should have any bearing on this.

I can imagine numerous different scenarios where the consumer would want to make an alternative purchase (time constraints, loss of confidence in original manufacturer etc) and these should not be precluded by the loss of money on return shipping because the manufacturer sent them a dud. SMD made the mistake, not the customer (though it could increasingly be argued that the original mistake was with the customer in purchasing from SMD)!

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: If you want to get legal on 05/29/2013 19:06:02 MDT Print View

Ron, if the guy just wanted to change his mind, he should pay the shipping, but in this case you sent him a really amateur looking product and you should do the right thing and refund his money. You've blown any chances of selling him the Cuben version and created a little PR disaster for yourself here. I would be embarrassed to turn out a product like that. Geez man, the whole UL world is watching!

It's about good customer service and just plain common sense, not "promises." You can toe the line of your warranty statement all you want, but if you play absolutes it will only create ill will for your company.

Everybody in business screws up once in a while. It's how you fix your mistakes that makes the difference and you have passed up a prefect chance to be the hero. I chalk up the cost of business fixes to advertising.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
poof on 05/29/2013 19:20:18 MDT Print View

And... poof! go Ron's two responses above (edited away).

Hmmmmm.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: SMD Disappointment - A case of benefit without commitment. on 05/29/2013 19:29:11 MDT Print View

"The reason that Yang didn't get a refund on the shipping for the return of his items, is really pretty simple. I believe that in both his mind and in his conversations he was attempting to merge two different and incompatible transactions into a single one."

You were right that I indeed wanted to combine the two transactions. The reason I wanted to do that was because I cared about your business and offered to buy a more expensive product from you, and wanted you to make more money. I cannot believe you think about this negatively!

Forget about the cuben thing because I will never order anything from you. Now, the refund case was pretty simple: a seller sends a defective item to a customer, and the customer wanted to get refund. So who should cover the shipping cost? At the minimum shouldn't the seller cover the return cost?

diego dean
(cfionthefly) - M
responses on 05/29/2013 19:32:28 MDT Print View

Id really like to know what those posts by Ron said.... for my future purchasing decisions.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 19:35:12 MDT Print View

Paraphrased "He didn't like my net tent, and thought my stitching was crap. I'm emotionally damaged and upset. Screw this guy. I don't care what my kid said, I have a policy and that is that. NO shipping refunds for modified orders".

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/29/2013 19:35:44 MDT.

J P
(jpovs) - F - M
Re: responses on 05/29/2013 19:35:41 MDT Print View

-

Edited by jpovs on 06/15/2014 14:22:40 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Very unpleasant experience on 05/29/2013 19:36:45 MDT Print View

This thread was fun.















pun intended.

Philip Marshall
(philthy) - MLife
Let's hope on 05/29/2013 19:37:09 MDT Print View

Lets hope this means a refund is on its way.

This reminds me of a completely different experience I had with a small supplier of ultralight fabrics and materials - I had ordered some silnylon and was disappointed when the fabric that arrived wasn't quite the colour I had expected - I emailed to check whether the wrong colour had been sent but was told that the right colour had indeed been sent but it didn't quite match what was on the website. As a gesture of goodwill, the supplier offered to pay for the return shipping (contrary to their returns policy) from Australia back to the US! I was so impressed with the gesture that I decided not to chase it up further and would buy from them again in a heartbeat.

Given the uncertainties of purchasing goods over the web, where you have no chance to see, feel, try out the items in a physical store, it is such a reassurance purchasing from companies that have a proven track record in customer service.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
shipping on 05/29/2013 19:41:06 MDT Print View

A transaction is not completed until the purchaser has taken possession of their purchased goods. Up to that point, under law, either party can rescind transactions.

SMD NEVER delivered promised goods to the customer, because one part of a two-component system required to be used together was defective.

IMO, the customer has the right to rescind the transaction, being both dissatisfied with expected quality and service, and the shipping fees should have been refunded.

If it were me, Id probably do a charge-back and file a complaint with Visa or paypal.


At the very least, the VERY least the way a rational person would look at it, about half the shipping had to be refunded for the defective product. (16 oz net/18oz tarp) for the tarp. And thats if you consider them to be two separate items.

Edited by livingontheroad on 05/29/2013 20:11:16 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
promises on 05/29/2013 19:44:57 MDT Print View

The question for me is did I make any promises that weren't delivered.

Absolutely not. In no way at all did Ron make any promises. His company via the word of his employees made a promise.

Does Ron need to keep promises he didn't make ? Nope.

But a SMD representative did write one out, and SMD should make good on it. Which is back to my first post. The SMD rep making promises that the company owner won't honor should cut the check and raise the issue with the boss.

That discussion should have been transparent to the customer.

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
_ on 05/29/2013 19:44:57 MDT Print View

Yang, thanks for posting your experience. You were not treated properly by Six Moon.

Six Moon screwed up. Then they compounded their error with poor followthrough and pissy online retorts. And some here manage to blame Yang? Ridiculous.

The greatest irony of it all? When you consider design + craftsmanship + price, Six Moon gear isn't that great. It's not horrible, but it's just barely this side of mediocre. If you're going to have to wait on an order, wait for something from MLD or ZPacks.

Edited by El_Canyon on 05/29/2013 19:46:23 MDT.

Jason Mahler
(jrmahler) - M

Locale: Michigan
Thanks on 05/29/2013 20:19:05 MDT Print View

Yang, your post was very well written and I believe the email chain showed very clearly that you wanted to return the item and wait for the Cuben model and asked if a shipping refund would be given. At that point Brandon said yes. To me, this is cut and dry and SMD should take the hit for their employees mistake and move on. The cottage companies charge a pretty penny for their product and part of the mark up is to account for the inherent risk of their employees doing stupid things like ruining a product or sending a poorly thought out email. It is a shame that SMD not only dealt with this poorly upfront, but then came to the forums and communicated in a way that likely lost them more customers.

I wonder how much this $20 shipping charge has cost SMD today and how much it will end up costing them in the end? I am sure they lost the profit from Yang's future sale and I for one will remain skeptical of their business practices.


On a side note, many people rave about cottage companies on this site and for good reasons. I really value this feedback because it has helped me make great decisions on gear that I would have never known about otherwise (Zpacks, GossamerGear, MLD, Lawsons, Lukes, EE, etc). For this reason, I also appreciate the negative comments because I don't want to waste time ordering from companies that don't want to work with me, especially when spending the amount of money most of us put down for this high end equipment. I'm not saying I won't use SMD in the future, but this may make me more cautious.

Peter Griffith
(petergriffith) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Do the right thing on 05/29/2013 21:15:37 MDT Print View

Ron,
The solution is simple, regardless of who you think is right or wrong. Refund the shipping charges and exceed his expectations by offering free shipping on the cuben tarp when it is available.

Gerry Brucia
(taedawood) - MLife

Locale: Louisiana, USA
What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 21:35:08 MDT Print View

I have been in sales for thirty years and have been the sales manager for a small family owned company for 17 years. Trust me, I have had to eat crow many times. I know it is easy to get frustrated with customers when you are overworked and tired. But most of the time you just have to suck it in and be nice to your customers ALL the time. I have learned that when there is a problem, resolve it as quickly as possible. Nothing endangers a successful resolution more than ignoring it or dragging it out. Regardless of your official policy, the key is to do everything you can to make your customer satisfied and wanting to do business with you again. As a rule, a company will die relying solely on one-time sales; it needs repeat customers to survive.

Within the BP cottage community I have had both good and bad experiences but fortunately most have been very good. Without naming names, I get really psyched when I buy a top-notch quality product and am treated with top-notch courtesy and service. Those two factors are far more important to me than price when it comes to buyer satisfaction.

Even though in my few dealings with Ron in the past I have found him to be rather curt in his communication style, I have been completely satisfied with my dealings with him in terms of both product quality and service. And I am empathetic with Ron because I too have a dangerous tendency to be curt. However, in Yang's case, Ron totally blew it! The product was defective. Everything in Yang's email correspondences showed courtesy on his part. And as has been stated, Yang waited a few weeks without resolution before bringing the issue to this forum. Especially because Brandon agreed to reimburse shipping costs, that should have been done promptly, regardless of Ron's official policy. For a measly $20, Ron lost a good customer and risked his company's reputation.

Having said all that, I encourage folks not to write Ron off either. SMD is not only a cottage manufacturer pioneer but is also one of the foremost innovators in our industry, especially so with the recent addition of Brian Frankle to his team. I just hope, for the sake of SMD, that Ron has chilled out some and learned from this unfortunate experience.

Edited by taedawood on 05/29/2013 21:45:35 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 21:55:09 MDT Print View

A) wow that's a lot of cash for shipping
B) I can't believe this discussion is actually happening over $20. It's not like he was ripped off a cuben tarp...

Yeah, could Ron have handled it better? Probably...but are we really going to throw away a whole company that just yesterday we liked a whole lot over this? I get curt sometimes too...

First Balls and Sunshine getting ripped off make us line up the pitchforks...now this? I think we all need to go take a hike. John, I'm with you on this one.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/29/2013 22:00:55 MDT Print View

I know people are upset, but lets put down the pitchforks and torches for just a minute. There has to be a better explanation than Ron and SMD ripped off Balls and Sunshine. I can believe the allegations about the bad mesh, and loose thread. I can understand the return policy. But I draw the line at blaming him for taking the water as payback for being forced to return a shipping charge.

--G.B.--

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Six Moon Design on 05/29/2013 22:10:30 MDT Print View

What a

rr

K C
(KalebC) - F

Locale: South West
Awkward...... on 05/29/2013 22:11:31 MDT Print View

-1 for bad customer service and quality control

Kelly G
(KellyDT) - F
laughing on 05/29/2013 22:13:46 MDT Print View

ha! Thanks --G.B.-- for your humerous comment. Lighten the tone on this one. No more pitch forks please, Jen is right.
--K.G.--

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 22:20:51 MDT Print View

"B) I can't believe this discussion is actually happening over $20. It's not like he was ripped off a cuben tarp..."

It's not. It's about a representative of the company indicating that a refund would be provided once the tent was sent back and then the owner of the company indicating that a refund would not be provided after the client had already returned the tent. It is the principal of the matter and makes many us question how the company would respond in a warranty situation and / or whether anyone at the company but Ron should be responding to emails because clearly even the employees aren't clear on the return policy.

Joshua Billings
(Joshua) - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz,Ca
I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 22:54:01 MDT Print View

That black van smd drives around in is awesome. But what goes on in there?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 22:58:39 MDT Print View

You have to sign a non disclosure to get in.

As to what is going on here. The usual. Bla bla, judge, bla, bla, $20,lynch mob, get serious, bla,bla, WTF!?! Now you are up to speed

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: What a PR Disaster for Six Moon Designs on 05/29/2013 23:06:35 MDT Print View

Davey Jones, you said exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks.

And, to anybody who kept mentioning 20 bucks was not a big deal, all I can say is you and I have very different value systems. I judge my behavior based on right or wrong, not how much money involved. I post it here becasue I think I was treated poorly and I hope you have better experience than mine.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 23:09:44 MDT Print View

Despite apparent years of good reviews and satisfied customers, someone f'ed something up and without a moment's delay, out come the knives. I'm sure people not even involved will be demanding a public apology from Ron soon.

Some community.

Michael Ray
(thaddeussmith) - F
... on 05/29/2013 23:31:13 MDT Print View

the truth revealed

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/29/2013 23:58:02 MDT Print View

Despite apparent years of good reviews and satisfied customers, someone f'ed something up and without a moment's delay, out come the knives. I'm sure people not even involved will be demanding a public apology from Ron soon.

Some community.


I've been too busy with work to chime in after Ron's response (before it was taken down).

+1 to what Craig said.

While I think on one hand it is important not to rake Yang over the coals, at the same time I think it is important for all of us to remember how GOOD SMD's customer service and product quality has been over the years, and not crucify them either. I doubt extremely that anyone involved with this whole affair, on both sides of the issue, meant any harm or was trying to cause trouble. Who knows if one of the SMD staff were having a bad day, whether someone missed an email. whether one or both sides simply misunderstood what the other wrote. It's a human issue with most likely human misses, and nothing more. I think Yang ought to be given a fair shake, but I also think the same of SMD. Give them a chance! Give them a chance to work things out! A lot of really bad and destructive feelings are being generated here, all around.

Edited by butuki on 05/30/2013 23:55:04 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
WELCOME TO THE THUNDERDOME! on 05/30/2013 00:05:18 MDT Print View

....actually that's all I wanted to say.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/30/2013 07:14:12 MDT Print View

This is a community?

Tongue...meet cheek.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/30/2013 07:41:30 MDT Print View

Sure. Can I borrow your lawn mower?

J C
(Joomy) - M
Re: Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/30/2013 08:13:57 MDT Print View

"A lot of really bad and destructive feelings are being generated here, all around."

The only destructive feelings here are being generated by those who are giving Yang and those who are sympathetic to him a hard time. If you re-read this thread most of the earlier posts were perfectly civilised, as was Yang's original post. All he did was bring a case of poor customer service to the attention of the community. Whether or not this was a 1 in 1 million case or whatever is irrelevant. This is exactly the sort of thing that community forums are for.

The most unreasonable, immature and unpleasant people in this thread are those like John Abela et al. who miss the point and get up in arms to "defend" someone (Ron) who isn't even being attacked! Yang didn't say SMD, or Ron, or Brandon were evil or dishonest. He said that he felt burnt by his dealings with them and that he was 100% understandably disappointed and perplexed. Posting that information here is not defamatory or mean-spirited, it is a perfectly reasonable and defensible line of action for someone who feels that they, for whatever reason, got the short end of the stick.

Honestly, how does anyone not get this?

Edited by Joomy on 05/30/2013 08:30:36 MDT.

Tom Lyons
(towaly) - F

Locale: Smoky Mtns.
Re. on 05/30/2013 08:24:44 MDT Print View

I have some SMD stuff and I like it.
I would, and in fact will, order again, because I need something that they make.

I'm sorry that this happened to the buyer, and also the fallout on SMD.
I'll just move along based on how things work out with my purchases.
People are not perfect, mistakes happen, people get defensive or irritable, and that's the way things are. Sometimes this results in lost business and regrets.

From my business perspective, I agree with the comments that it is much better to solve the issue so that it results in better PR for the company, even if it costs money and time to do it, and even if it obliterates any profit made. The PR is worth it.
In my own business, I recently suffered some parts broken by UPS insured shipping to my customer, and UPS tried to squirm out of paying the insurance claim, and in fact they never paid the insurance claim for their breakage. But I sent brand new parts to the customer, at my $400 expense, lost all my profits and also went into a loss over it. In the end, the customer was very happy with my handling of the situation, I'll eventually recover from my loss, and I'll never do any shipping with UPS ever again.
My business reputation didn't suffer, and this will help me to recover from that loss and help my future growth.

Edited by towaly on 05/30/2013 08:27:17 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Some customers should be turned away on 05/30/2013 08:54:59 MDT Print View

I guess no matter what you print or how you state it there will always be customers who are too ignorant to do stuff right. Probably 1 in a 1000 customers is this way.

So what is the best way to handle these outliers?

Retailers are reviewed, too bad buyers can't be as well. "I'm sorry sir/madam but you have too many negative reviews, we can't sell to you".

I hate seeing BPL used to beat up on a 1st rate supplier.

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/30/2013 09:11:11 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 08:03:15 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD on 05/30/2013 09:22:49 MDT Print View

I guess no matter what gets offered in writing or how a business states it will handle the situation, there will always be owners who are too ignorant to do stuff right. Probably 1 in a 10 owners is this way. That's why most business fail.

So what is the best way to handle these outliers?

Retailers are reviewed, and customers get to make an informed decision when spending money.

I hate seeing BPL used to beat up on a 1st rate customer who tried to resolve the issue with the company and kept the paper trail to show his intentions.

--G.B.--

Does SMD make a shelter that protects from bad exposure ? Haven't seen goodwill thrown all over the ground like this since Kookabay. When the storm clears, we might need a framed pack to haul it out. Hard to imagine turning a customer wanting a cuben upgrade into a PR disaster of this magnitude.

Edited by redmonk on 05/30/2013 09:50:28 MDT.

Ben H.
(bzhayes) - F

Locale: So. California
Re: "Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 05/30/2013 09:24:00 MDT Print View

wow... so much goodwill Ron has built up over the years thrown away for $20. This is a word to the wise: If you get something defective from Ron, do not return it to him, just charge back your credit card and make him come to your house to pick up the defective item. I personally will just stay away from SMD.

Ron: Your customer service representative promised to refund return shipping costs to Yang. You reneged on that contractually written promise after the fact. Your problem is with your customer service representative, not your customer... but now you have made it all of your customers problem. Yo make some really great products but this is not going to be good for your business.

J C
(Joomy) - M
Re: Re: "Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 05/30/2013 09:46:32 MDT Print View

"This is a word to the wise: If you get something defective from Ron, do not return it to him, just charge back your credit card and make him come to your house to pick up the defective item. I personally will just stay away from SMD."

OK let's not get crazy. I'm sure 99.9% of the time Ron and SMD offer great, genuine help to customers who request it.

"I hate seeing BPL used to beat up on a 1st rate customer who tried to resolve the issue with the company and kept the paper trail to show his intentions."

Let's not use BPL to bash anyone! Except of course those with 30+ lb base weight.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Some customers should be turned away on 05/30/2013 10:01:34 MDT Print View

Zorg,

In my case, I have all communications documented in the emails. Tell me what made you think I am 1/1000 ignorant customers?

"1st rate supplier"? Which authority defined that? I heard Six Moon Designs from this forum and some similar posts as yours gave me a false feeling that this was a company I could trust and give my business with. But my personal experience did not concor that. You can say it is YOUR "1st rate supplier", but not mine.


*************************

I guess no matter what you print or how you state it there will always be customers who are too ignorant to do stuff right. Probably 1 in a 1000 customers is this way.

So what is the best way to handle these outliers?

Retailers are reviewed, too bad buyers can't be as well. "I'm sorry sir/madam but you have too many negative reviews, we can't sell to you".

I hate seeing BPL used to beat up on a 1st rate supplier

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Yang on 05/30/2013 10:14:40 MDT Print View

I get what your complaint is, but this:
" posts as yours gave me a false feeling that this was a company I could trust and give my business with"......Seems disproportionate to the "offense".
I see a mistake, I don't suddenly see a company that is niot to be trusted.
It's easy to get carried away and I think we have done some if that here.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Yang on 05/30/2013 10:23:05 MDT Print View

Kat, I appreciate you point this out. I think different people have different views. That is why I used the word "I" and "my business".

Drew Jay
(drewjh) - F

Locale: Central Coast
... on 05/30/2013 10:35:07 MDT Print View

Yang has a legitimate complaint - I've not been reimbursed for return shipping on defective product more times than I can count and it is definitely annoying. And SMD's response left something to be desired. But in the end we're talking about $20 which in my opinion doesn't even remotely warrant the giant dogpile in this thread - hasn't everyone got better things to do??

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: ... on 05/30/2013 11:00:19 MDT Print View

hasn't everyone got better things to do??

its BPL so ... HELL NO ...

like i said "publicity" works both ways ... those who chant rah rah rah over some gear makers now start accusing a perfectly valid complaint on such gear maker

heres WHY people need to be able to state their good OR bad experiences ...once BPLers try to suppress anything they dont like to hear ... you end up with situations like these

so people can make their OWN judgement ... and not get swept up in the fervor ...

"1st rate supplier"? Which authority defined that? I heard Six Moon Designs from this forum and some similar posts as yours gave me a false feeling that this was a company I could trust and give my business with. But my personal experience did not concor that. You can say it is YOUR "1st rate supplier", but not mine.

;)

Charles Tufankjian
(ctufankjian)

Locale: New Hampshire
Plus one on 05/30/2013 11:03:35 MDT Print View

True that, if you can't take your first world problems to a internet forum, then where else can you express them?...because I'm sure my spouse wouldn't want to hear about it ;-)

Edited by ctufankjian on 05/30/2013 11:07:43 MDT.

Steofan The Apostate
(simaulius) - F

Locale: Bohemian Alps
To the OP... on 05/30/2013 11:04:21 MDT Print View

SMD does list a phone number on their web site. Perhaps a polite phone call could turn this experience around. Please accept my apology if you tried this as I may have missed it in all of the flames and train wrecks posted above.
That having been said, I'll agree with Jen, let's all just go outside now.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: To the OP... on 05/30/2013 11:10:36 MDT Print View

"...let's all just go outside now."

+1

North Cascades NP in 24 hrs!

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: Some customers should be turned away on 05/30/2013 11:16:06 MDT Print View

Yang Lu wrote - "In my case, I have all communications documented in the emails. Tell me what made you think I am 1/1000 ignorant customers?"

I've read you OP multiple times. 95% of it was whining/complaining/moaning/venting about your own mistakes. Yea, you made multiple mistakes. Ultimately you got told "NO" because you screwed up. The key here is that YOU SCREWED UP. And instead of making a phone call to SMD to clear things up, you continue to bash them on a public forum, obviously enjoying your "victim" status amongst your supporters. So you have created and maintained a "pity thread".

I'm gonna buy some more gear from SMD now, (and I certainly don't need anything), just to show my support. I'm glad I'm not in the retail business.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Some customers should be turned away on 05/30/2013 11:18:08 MDT Print View

mmmmmm .... and they say BPL has no fanbois ;)

John Martin
(snapyjohn) - M

Locale: Pacific NW
Conspiracy? on 05/30/2013 11:21:24 MDT Print View

Is it possible that SMD is the target of an elaborate corporate hatchet job? In a conspiracy you need to either follow the money or find out who has the most to gain. When I use this logic it became clear. Brian Frankle goes to work for Ron. A non compete runs out and Frankle is now able to use his incredible skills to create gear that no one can resist. The big three GG ,TT and ULA are acutely aware that the balance of power has been irrevocably altered. A plan is hatched and a clandestine meeting is arranged. The big three brought in the rest of the "cottage" industry players and a consensus was reached. Frankle could not be allowed to pen to paper or needle to tread. This is just speculation but it looks like Hill and Knowlton and Monsantoand maybe even North Korean government were brought in to take out this new threat. I fear Ron and Brian are being held in a non disclosed location while the besmirching campaign is being carried out. Posts posted and then being expunged from the record and then miraculously reappear in the thread. Conspiracy 101 in my opinion.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Great product on 05/30/2013 11:22:02 MDT Print View

I have had no quality issues with a Christmas time, discounted, Starlight pack I bought from Ron about 3 years ago. There are many great retailers/cottage industries to select from, if one does not have the gear that suits your needs, you go to one that does. OP was going off of feedback here. Too bad this has gone this far.
Duane

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Huh? on 05/30/2013 11:28:31 MDT Print View

Zorg, your reply is really ....odd? ? I would not want you on my side .

Edited by Kat_P on 05/30/2013 11:34:48 MDT.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: Some customers should be turned away on 05/30/2013 11:36:12 MDT Print View

As a human being, who shared the same hobby, I can respect you at the beginning. But you are destroying that respect. While all I am talking about was an internet sale, you started to attack me. Arguing with you just downgrades my status.


******************

Yang Lu wrote - "In my case, I have all communications documented in the emails. Tell me what made you think I am 1/1000 ignorant customers?"

I've read you OP multiple times. 95% of it was whining/complaining/moaning/venting about your own mistakes. Yea, you made multiple mistakes. Ultimately you got told "NO" because you screwed up. The key here is that YOU SCREWED UP. And instead of making a phone call to SMD to clear things up, you continue to bash them on a public forum, obviously enjoying your "victim" status amongst your supporters. So you have created and maintained a "pity thread".

I'm gonna buy some more gear from SMD now, (and I certainly don't need anything), just to show my support. I'm glad I'm not in the retail business.

josh jordan
(jjchgo) - M
Zorg... on 05/30/2013 11:36:17 MDT Print View

NO SMD SCREWED UP. Period! An employee promised something and the company didn't deliver on that promise. Simple as that. If you want to did deeper lets talk about QC, SMD should be ashamed sending that net-tent out in the condition it was in. How about the edited post by Ron? He wont stand by his employees words, heck he wont even stand by his own words.

Enjoy shopping at SMD, there is a saying about a "person" and his money being easily separated...

Edited by jjchgo on 05/30/2013 11:37:43 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
That SMD thread on 05/30/2013 11:37:57 MDT Print View



Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: That SMD thread on 05/30/2013 11:54:08 MDT Print View

Damn Ron and his corporate greed.

Brandon, your grounded.

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/30/2013 11:59:08 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 08:01:46 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Top 10 PR Blunders on 05/30/2013 12:11:34 MDT Print View

"Sure. Can I borrow your lawn mower?"

Sure. But Zorg is using it until Saturday after he mows down as much common sense as possible. After that, it is yours.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
ENOUGH ALREADY! on 05/30/2013 12:16:24 MDT Print View

PLEASE - GIVE IT A REST, GUYS!

Everyone has had their say.

IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
give it a rest? on 05/30/2013 12:55:45 MDT Print View

Though the points raised by the OP have not been addressed by SMD, Bob has apaprently decided this thread is over. However, I'd say that until the OP is fairly treated by SMD, I'd think it should continue (in a rational manner). (It seems that Ron, Brandon, the OP, etc. might have different definitions of what "fair" is.)

I know we all love to praise and support our local friendly cottage gear makers (in my case, Tarptent and MLD have been nothing but stellar), I don't think they are entitled to a free pass when they don't do right by the customer. It's pretty clear here that they haven't.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
NO BOB!! on 05/30/2013 12:57:42 MDT Print View

The price is wrong *****

Yang- dont defend youself anymore there is no need clearly anyone with a shred of buisness sense or even common sense knows this was not right.

On BPL when this happens normally the majority of the people rush to defend the cottage gear guy. Most people hear, after reading your story and your emails, agree with you so that says something. Just let it go now and let the jokes finish off the thread.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I'm not reading all of this on 05/30/2013 13:00:58 MDT Print View

Bob, You knew that wouldn't work didn't you.

I sense two more pages at least.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Maybe take a lesson from Stew Leonard's ? on 05/30/2013 13:05:27 MDT Print View

Stew Leonard's Success Story

Stew Leonard

edited to fix link.

Edited by ngatel on 05/30/2013 13:09:03 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Maybe take a lesson from Stew Leonard's ? on 05/30/2013 13:07:56 MDT Print View

Apparently Bob is going to set things straight.

(Crickets)

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
Unfortunate on 05/30/2013 13:08:46 MDT Print View

This whole situation is unfortunate. The OP, in this instance, is in the right. I didn't get to read Ron's responses but based on the flaming he got I'll assume he didn't intend to make the issue right.

I recall back in training for being a sales manager, I was told that a satisfied customer will (on average) tell 3 people. An unsatisfied customer will (on average) tell 20 people. That was before forums, when you could tell 1000 people with one click. I would say the damage to SMD's business far exceeds the $20 in shipping they saved.

I like that BPL allows people to frankly discuss the good and the bad about businesses. I disagree with the fellow earlier who said this type of discussion should not be allowed--- unless they also disallow discussions of a positive nature. Many people, like myself, utilize this forum to determine what to buy and from whom. That said, I know Ron and SMD have an overall good reputation and this thread doesn't make me discount them entirely but it does cloud the image I had in my head until today both of their gear quality and of their customer service.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Not $20 on 05/30/2013 13:23:18 MDT Print View

They lost sale of net tent, cuben shelter, customer, and when the new pack line is announced, this concern about customer service, returns, etc will be hanging around.

$20 was how it started, and looks cheaper now I'm sure than four days ago.

The one thing SMD has going for them is they are huge. Since you can buy their gear in pretty much any sporting goods store, people don't need to be concerned with dealing with a mail order company with peculiar shipping habits. REI or similar is willing to take care of the customer on SMDs behalf.

Edited by redmonk on 05/30/2013 13:31:00 MDT.

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
Yang need Yin from SMD on 05/30/2013 13:33:37 MDT Print View

If SMD refinds reason, hopefully it can repair the damage directly with Yang.

The SMD stain left by this thread will take sometime to fade. Ironically, its not Yang's posts which most damaged SMD's reputation - it was Ron's.

For those who have previously dealt with Ron this event can be minimized in the context of other favourable dealings. For those who have never dealt with him or SMD, I expect this early summer posting frenzy will tarnish both for some time.

Its all very regrettable. Refunding the shipping and being done with it will put it to bed sooner rather than later. Not doing so will give this a longer life, even after the posting stops, as newcomers search SMD, this is what they will inevitably find.

Its unbelievable how SMD have martyred the principle of fair dealing for $20. What would they do for $200?

Crazy!

Derrick

Edited by miku on 05/30/2013 14:09:13 MDT.

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/30/2013 13:45:48 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 08:00:46 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Bob on 05/30/2013 14:02:21 MDT Print View

First of all this... this thread is better than anything I can find on TV. But in trying to keep up with this Soap Opera... who's Bob?

The players as I can tell:

Ron is the owner.
Brandon is the SMD son/employee gone rogue
Yang is the customer
Zorg is the motivational speaker
John is my new favorite Dr. Seuss character

But who is Bob? I'm assuming we're not talking about Bob Bankhead who asked a few responses ago for everyone to politely stfu (paraphrasing of course).

Is he a secret agent from a Borat inspired terror group on a mission here in the U.S. to disrupt the harmony between OCD BPLers and the cottage industry? Is he here to reveal the truth that not one of these people even own a cottage?

LET'S DO THIS PEOPLE. Grab those energy drinks and dig in! Certainly we can get another few pages from this!

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
Read "Ron" on 05/30/2013 14:08:06 MDT Print View

Read Ron - will edit

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD on 05/30/2013 14:14:45 MDT Print View

BOB is actually a recursive acronym for the BOB owns backpacking, where BOB is actually a reverse recursive acronym for Bankers of BOB, where BOB is an acronym for Bags or bivies.

Put together, BOB is the Bankers of Bags or Bivies owns backpacking.

They are a black ops wing of the UPS, acting in partnership with the cottage industry to reap maximum shipping profits from minimal weight packages. They have been know to pal around with the USPS, the NCAA, and the LGPA.

Hope this helps,
--G.B.--

Hamish McHamish
(El_Canyon) - M

Locale: USA
communication on 05/30/2013 14:34:06 MDT Print View

Many have dinged Yang on communication. Considering his name and writing style, I think it's clear that English is not his first language. You guys need to cut some slack based on that item alone. He's communicated pretty well in light of that.

>"But in the end we're talking about $20 which in my opinion doesn't even remotely >warrant the giant dogpile in this thread - hasn't everyone got better things to do??"

The harm to Yang wasn't just $20 it was also the kink in his trip planning caused by the defective merchandise not to mention the hassle of dealing with Six Moon.

Forums like this are the perfect place to air this stuff. If everyone has better things to do, why operate the site at all?

Six Moon had their chance to keep this from snowballing into a PR disaster dogpile. They chose instead to attack the customer. They are reaping the consequences.

Six Moon has enjoyed the internet's benefits of instant communication and widespread sharing of info to build up their business, nobody complained then of having better things to do. Now Six Moon must endure the other side of the internet coin. Tough.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD on 05/30/2013 14:35:54 MDT Print View

"They are a black ops wing of the UPS.."

Sweet! This gets better by the minute. Beer. Flip flops. Robe. Beer. Hand in pants Al Bundy style.... let the circus continue!

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/30/2013 14:36:17 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 08:02:35 MDT.

Alice Hengst
(Moondust) - MLife

Locale: Southern Sierras
Tuition Payment on 05/30/2013 14:55:01 MDT Print View

$20 is a pretty cheap tuition payment to the School of Life. I've made many that are 10 or 100 times that amount. Thanks to Yang, that $20 provided a free class for all of us. What you learn from the class is up to you.

scree ride
(scree)
Any advertising is good advertising on 05/30/2013 15:03:04 MDT Print View

There are more satisfied customers here than there are dissatisfied ones. Those of you who write the company off, were probably never going to buy from them anyway.
Now what I'm reading and many others will as well is...
"I wanted a Cuban tarp for my trip. They didn't have one so I ordered what they had. It got a bit roughed up on my trip and I really wanted cuben anyway. It's their fault for not having it in stock and I shouldn't suffer for their oversight."
This may be the exception, but I read the same thing over and over down rating good products. I just ignore it. Put it off as some hothead...
If you're serious, e-mails are disingenuous, pick up the phone and call.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 15:12:20 MDT Print View

What I'm reading, and many others will as well is, "I love My favorite company. I'm ignoring everything that threatens that love, and substituting it with a story that I like better. Like one where the gear was delivered in flawless condition, used, damaged, and returned under false pretenses. "

--G.B.--

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 15:19:57 MDT Print View

. Like one where the gear was delivered in flawless condition, used, damaged, and returned under false pretenses

are BPLers making up stories and trying to re-write the OPs original post to "protect" some cottage company?

hmmmmmm ;)

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Any advertising is good advertising on 05/30/2013 15:23:57 MDT Print View

English is my second language, but I do not think your reading skill is better than me.

"I wanted a Cuban tarp for my trip. They didn't have one so I ordered what they had. It got a bit roughed up on my trip and I really wanted cuben anyway. It's their fault for not having it in stock and I shouldn't suffer for their oversight."

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Any advertising is good advertising on 05/30/2013 15:25:26 MDT Print View

Seriously Scat or Scree or what ever your name is, did you read the first post or just try to get straight into the action.

By the way how is gross bob related to bob gross? It would make my day if they were the same person and one is for serious posts and the other is a gimick.....Cause ive noticed that gross bob is far funnier the Bob gross. Sorry Bob gross :(

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 15:31:39 MDT Print View

"There are more satisfied customers here than there are dissatisfied ones."

How do you know this? Yang is told not to air issues on a public forum and given the hostility he has faced maybe this is why many do not come forward. Are you saying that more should come forward?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Very pleasant experience with Six Moon Design on 05/30/2013 15:44:13 MDT Print View

I've met Ron a couple of times now. I like him. I do wish that the Lunar Solos were in stock and that green was still an option.

Just saying.

This whole little episode will fade in time. A small misunderstanding, mis-handling of a minor situation. I'm sure things will be

worked out. Will the OP tell us?

M J
(mj451at2) - M

Locale: Somewhere out hiking!!!
Well said... on 05/30/2013 16:15:26 MDT Print View

Many have dinged Yang on communication. Considering his name and writing style, I think it's clear that English is not his first language. You guys need to cut some slack based on that item alone. He's communicated pretty well in light of that.

>"But in the end we're talking about $20 which in my opinion doesn't even remotely >warrant the giant dogpile in this thread - hasn't everyone got better things to do??"

The harm to Yang wasn't just $20 it was also the kink in his trip planning caused by the defective merchandise not to mention the hassle of dealing with Six Moon.

Forums like this are the perfect place to air this stuff. If everyone has better things to do, why operate the site at all?

Six Moon had their chance to keep this from snowballing into a PR disaster dogpile. They chose instead to attack the customer. They are reaping the consequences.

Six Moon has enjoyed the internet's benefits of instant communication and widespread sharing of info to build up their business, nobody complained then of having better things to do. Now Six Moon must endure the other side of the internet coin. Tough.

Nice... I wonder if Ron's posts will return... or if he will??? Thinkin' Brandon might get a new trail name...

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
SMD on 05/30/2013 16:19:15 MDT Print View

Just to throw my 2 cents in what six moon should have done or should do is given a $20 credit toward the purchase of a future SMD product. This protects SMD from the buyer walking away and deciding not to get the Cuban tarp and the buyer gets the shipping refunded.

In my opinion six moons did not handle it as well as could have been. But I also think the reaction in this thread has been almost comical on both sides.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Fair game and The Gear Cult phenomenon. on 05/30/2013 16:24:59 MDT Print View

Its fair game. These cottage manufacturers benefit, purposefully or not, on basically free advertising from people on this site...so they can endure the occasion criticism posted. Personally, i am of the frame of mind where i make a mistake and people paid me... I do whatever I need to do to fix it... Not only that... But maybe even go a little extra.

Obviously... Not everyone is like that.

Actually, i totally agree with gross bob and eric chan.There are blatant displays of fanboydom in this forum concerning certain companies or products. Can you say Western Mountaineering and Tarptent? I once pointed out on the Moment DW how you cant quickly put the fly on when using only the bug tent. Immediately, the excuses were made... Its not designed for high rain area... WTF? Seriously? Then others chimed in with generic, brainwashed support like saying... Its awesome!.... While never addressing the specific slight criticism i had.

I have to admit, i see basically the same happening here. Its quite clear what happened, as evidence by the emails, and its quite evident who went back on their word. Even if there was miscommunication within the company, thats still their fault.

Dont have a dog in the fight, but it is fun to watch people resort to ridiculous rationalizations and justifications to support some manufacturers here.... Especially when there evidence to reject these.

> From: store@sixmoondesigns.com [mailto:store@sixmoondesigns.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 3:57 PM
> To: Yang Lu
> Subject: RE: Six Moon Designs: A couple flaws on my tent
>
> Yang,
>
> After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs.

Ummm... How is this a misunderstanding? Seems pretty clear cut to me.



Put down the koolaid.

Edited by fitztravels on 05/30/2013 16:40:13 MDT.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 16:39:34 MDT Print View

Sure, if they have a complaint.
There is no hostility.
I'm just telling you my interpretation of the rogue complaints I see. A single complaint only tells me somebody's having a bad day.
Bring on more complaints. If there is fact to the story, it will bear out. In the mean time I'll just simply entertain myself with it.
Now about that lawn mower and more important issues...Did you get it back?

To the O.P. Again if you have a complaint, make the phone call. Settle it man to man, then come here.

Edited by scree on 05/30/2013 16:42:24 MDT.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Koolaid on 05/30/2013 16:46:12 MDT Print View

I brought koolaid packits backpacking once but I forgot you need a thousand cups of sugar to make it. :/

Ps. I just got off the phone with Ron and he said he is writing posters names down and will be providing defective gear to all of us on future purchases. Also he is changing the return policy. Now customers will pay double shipping to return anything, pictures of said gear NOT being used need to be supplied for proof that said gear has not been used... And once the new tent smell has worn off the purchase can not be returned.

GICH

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 16:52:56 MDT Print View

"To the O.P. Again if you have a complaint, make the phone call. Settle it man to man, then come here." Scree (clearly still mowing)

You make your phone calls man to man? Isn't it awkward calling some one to that you are standing next to? or are you suggesting he face time Ron and that will get the problem solved?

You still havent read the first post(shakes head).

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
man to man. on 05/30/2013 16:54:50 MDT Print View

Corresponding (in writing) via email, being promised something (in writing), and then having that promise broken (in writing) just doesn't seem "man to man" for a real man.

So man up, make that manly call, have verbal promises made (which are totally binding), and then come here to complain only when those verbal promises (made man to man) fail. Then it can be a case of "man-said, man-said," and I'm positive you'll get your way then, since Moak is totally a man of his word.

--B.R.--

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 17:07:59 MDT Print View

Why not call? It's much more personal and you'd probably get the attention you're looking for. E-mails aren't human.Instead making a scene appeals to the primal senses.(shakes all over)

scree ride
(scree)
Re: man to man. on 05/30/2013 17:09:52 MDT Print View

Woman to woman if you prefer, except they're both men.

M J
(mj451at2) - M

Locale: Somewhere out hiking!!!
DB... on 05/30/2013 17:13:32 MDT Print View

So you are going to talk to Ron???

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: man to man. on 05/30/2013 17:16:27 MDT Print View

After the emails and the two posts here you think Ron is going to change his mind because someone calls? Really? I hope this is one of those times when you can't see someone's sarcasm over the internet.

Ryan

scree ride
(scree)
No sarcasm on 05/30/2013 17:29:03 MDT Print View

Can't afford the long distance? (That was sarcasm)
Seriously though, would it kill you to talk to the person that you have the complaint with? All they could do would be to ignore you, cuss at you, hang up the phone, or just maybe deal with you.
I for one would take the complaint much more seriously. In fact I would consider sending the twenty bucks myself, but I have a lawn mower to buy.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/30/2013 17:29:16 MDT Print View

Scree,

I am curious why don't you suggest Six Moon Design to initiate the call to me ? Instead, immediately come to the conclusion that I should call them?

You better spend some time to read the whole thread. A couple weeks ago I sent one last email to them. They chose to ignore me. The owner obviously explained why he did this in previous posts. If you were me, were you going to call them again? to get insulted?

************

Why not call? It's much more personal and you'd probably get the attention you're looking for. E-mails aren't human.Instead making a scene appeals to the primal senses.(shakes all over)

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: DB... on 05/30/2013 17:34:36 MDT Print View

I talked to him he is taking this all very personal and has stopped production of all Cuban tarps and fired Brandon.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I'm not going to read all this. on 05/30/2013 17:38:21 MDT Print View

Exactly. You emailed. You never called.

Both parties made errors. BFD.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Man to man on 05/30/2013 17:38:58 MDT Print View

If anyone wishes to repond to anything i post in here, from here on out, be a man unless your a woman and call me on the phone and say IT TO MY FACE, fiber optically speaking.

Edit: for what its worth, an email agreement, contract, or promise is legally binding... Actually MORE so then verbal...becuase its proveable. If cottage manufacturers wish not to be contacted by email... Then dont display it as an option to be contacted by.

Edited by fitztravels on 05/30/2013 17:43:47 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
calling on 05/30/2013 17:42:21 MDT Print View

the OP stated that english is NOT HIS FIRST LANGUAGE ... perhaps he is more comfortable emailing where there is a record and where he can write out proper responses in a non-native language

now a good company will be able to respond courteously and fulfill their promises whether through email or the phone ...

gotta luuuuuv BPL ... now you have to call to get service ... even though the email form is prominently listed on this manufacturers website

;)

scree ride
(scree)
because on 05/30/2013 17:45:06 MDT Print View

They're not doing it and somebody has to in order to get it straightened out. Unfortunately, regardless of who's obligation it may be, that leaves you. They've perhaps categorized you as having buyers remorse and are sending back used merchandise. You really wanted cuben. You have to see their perspective a little bit, even if it's not fair, they may have been burned a few times already. If you call, you become a real person. Besides a ringing phone is harder to ignore. Now quit getting insulted over everything and stop getting your hair up. That defiantly won't work.
They have a good reputation. Good quality control. Even with that things may slip by. They are a growing company and that does not happen with out some confusion. They're putting out a decent product at a decent price. That's hard to find. I just can't condemn them. Not today anyway.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Again on 05/30/2013 17:46:37 MDT Print View

What I'm reading, and many others will as well is, "I love My favorite company. I'm ignoring everything that threatens that love, and substituting it with a fictional story that I like better. Like one where the gear was delivered in flawless condition, used, damaged, and returned under false pretenses. "

--G.B.--

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: I'm not going to read all this. on 05/30/2013 17:48:45 MDT Print View

Snap,

Read my first post, item #1 to see if I have called them. And even if I did not call, why that caused me to make errors?

I just do not understand your point that a customer HAS to call the seller. Why not the other way?


*****************

"Exactly. You emailed. You never called.

Both parties made errors. BFD."

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Very unpleasant indeed... on 05/30/2013 17:52:28 MDT Print View

I seriously hope nobody's kids are waiting for them to cook dinner while the BPL Cyber Sleuth Unit gets to the bottom of this most egregious tragedy.

I hear top Sleuths get decoder rings if we can hit 15 pages before closing arguments are made.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: because on 05/30/2013 17:55:38 MDT Print View

from the OP btw ... fanbois blaming him BEFORE reading things

1. For 3 business days (April 29 to May 1) I had heard nothing from them. After sending another email and calling them once, I finally got a response on the forth business day (May 2).

Edited by bearbreeder on 05/30/2013 17:56:20 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
More evidence Watson! on 05/30/2013 17:56:50 MDT Print View

We must be thorough!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: More evidence Watson! on 05/30/2013 18:04:05 MDT Print View

I have no time for this.

Craig, wanna borrow my lawn mower?

scree ride
(scree)
Honestly on 05/30/2013 18:08:12 MDT Print View

at this point, I'm gonna boycott SMD if they do refund the shipping. I could have begged 20 bucks in front of Ralph's by now. You returned a good item because you wanted something else. That is why prices go up for the rest of us.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: More evidence Watson! on 05/30/2013 18:09:37 MDT Print View

Thanks a bunch. I was going to put oil in it this time.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: More evidence Watson! on 05/30/2013 18:09:47 MDT Print View

Actually, I had my eye on your string trimmer.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Honestly on 05/30/2013 18:13:10 MDT Print View

"good item"?

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/30/2013 18:15:17 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 07:59:21 MDT.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: because on 05/30/2013 18:21:58 MDT Print View

Scree, you pointed out something I have never had in my mind and I certainly hope Six Moon Design was not as what you said: "...They've perhaps categorized you as having buyers remorse and are sending back used merchandise..."

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
this thread on 05/30/2013 18:24:09 MDT Print View

I can't even

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: this thread on 05/30/2013 18:24:52 MDT Print View

If it weren't for the lack of gifs I'd have thought I was on tumblr.

scree ride
(scree)
window? on 05/30/2013 18:26:49 MDT Print View

They don't give me a window here. They took away my string trimmer as well. I only fantasize about lawn mowers. Nobody lets me borrow them anymore.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: More evidence Watson! on 05/30/2013 18:33:39 MDT Print View

"Actually, I had my eye on your string trimmer."

Sorry, I lent it to Six Moon Designs.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: because on 05/30/2013 18:37:39 MDT Print View

Not that it is what you were doing, it's just how it may appear. It would not be the first time it happened. You gave two reasons for the return. One was that you wanted something else. That may have been all that they heard. Bottom line is that they are not evil people. All the hatred in this entire thread really only tells me that we've been sitting inside too much. We all need to lighten up.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: because I are human on 05/30/2013 18:37:44 MDT Print View

Exactly the point I wanted to make. I made a mistake. I'm human. Just like everyone else involved in this trivial issue. Rectify the problem and that is that. It's so simple.

I see another page worth of BS coming up.

This reads like the Carbon Flame War. We need more graphs.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: because I are human on 05/30/2013 18:41:13 MDT Print View

We need more giraffes.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Happy thoughts on 05/30/2013 18:42:18 MDT Print View

Goatrocks

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: because I are human on 05/30/2013 18:42:33 MDT Print View

And charts, don't forget the charts

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: because I are human on 05/30/2013 18:51:53 MDT Print View

Us

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/30/2013 18:56:36 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 07:58:47 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: window? on 05/30/2013 18:57:43 MDT Print View

You can borrow my mower. You have to come here and pick it up.
I have a trimmer also.

I do not have a single SMD design product though. Trade?

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: window? on 05/30/2013 19:17:14 MDT Print View

Sycamore

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
scree. on 05/30/2013 19:20:23 MDT Print View

SMD fanboi?

Ron Moak's 60-day old alter ego?

Troll?

CDT section hiker (sub 100 miles) sponsored by SMD?

Brandon Moak's significant other who simply HATES to see him take the fall for his perennially grumpy father yet again?

Someone lacking the ability to both read and comprehend?

You decide.

--B.R.--



(edited to add my Gross Tagline)

Edited by DaveT on 05/30/2013 19:24:36 MDT.

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
My two cents on 05/30/2013 19:23:04 MDT Print View

Yang,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the situation as I see it is, (and yes I read the posts, except for the idiots in the dogpile) you ordered the net tent and tarp for $350 + $21 for shipping for a total of $371 charged to your credit card. When you received the gear you found damage on the net tent and returned both items, at your cost I assume. You then canceled the entire order.

In my humble opinion, the refund should be for the cost of the merchandise plust the amount it cost for you to ship it BACK to SMD. Had you not canceled they should have eaten all shipping costs except for the original charge. But since you did cancel, I believe SMD is entitled to something to offset their costs (order processing, etc).

What I would have done is amend the order to send the Cuban stuff instead. Either let them keep the original charge, or credit your account and then charge the correct amount when the Cuban ships. That would have put you at or near the top of the list when the Cuban becomes available.

Finally, as a few others have mentioned, this whole mess could have been avoided with a few phone calls from either side. Emails are notoriously impersonal, and rarely do you get you true meaning across.

And no, I am not a SMD fanboy. I have only placed one order with them and was completely satisfied with the quality of the product. My only beef was what I thought was a slight design flaw.

Doug

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: because on 05/30/2013 19:23:15 MDT Print View

No, I have only one reason to return becasue Six Moon Design sent me a defective product.

I am not talking about evil or anything. It was you mentioned those nonsense.

******

Not that it is what you were doing, it's just how it may appear. It would not be the first time it happened. You gave two reasons for the return. One was that you wanted something else. That may have been all that they heard. Bottom line is that they are not evil people. All the hatred in this entire thread really only tells me that we've been sitting inside too much. We all need to lighten up.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: My two cents on 05/30/2013 19:30:40 MDT Print View

Doug, I appreciate your comments. The numbers in your post were not right. I paid $350 + $12 to receive the defective product; and paid $9 to ship the defective product back to Six Moon Design.

If you say I should get $9 refund, not a problem. But I recieved nothing...

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: My two cents on 05/30/2013 19:40:05 MDT Print View

I was under the impression it was $21 one way. But if everything else is correct, then yes you should get 9 bucks back. In the big scheme of things $9 is probably not worth the hassle, but it still might be worth it to call them. If for nothing else than to possibly mend fences.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
To Yang on 05/30/2013 19:40:19 MDT Print View

Please give your address. I will send you $20. Can this just end!!!!!!

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
I guess I better get on Yang's train to 15 pages on 05/30/2013 19:46:02 MDT Print View

Now that this pity thread has turned ridiculous and is almost 10 pages, I figure I need to do my part to get it to 15.

Here is the weight of a SVEA 123R fully fueled, (good for 1 hour run time), without the cute little cup/pot.Fueled weight of SVEA 123R sans pot

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: To Yang on 05/30/2013 19:48:22 MDT Print View

Hiking Malto, thanks for the offer but why would I want to take your money? New people are posting, why that made you mad? If you do not like this thread, just ignore it.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
... on 05/30/2013 19:57:26 MDT Print View

I have to say that agree with Yang or not, he has maintained a civil tone and his replies have been respectful even to those that have not shown near the class.

Kevin Schneringer
(Slammer) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma Flat Lands
Hmmm.. on 05/30/2013 20:12:38 MDT Print View

If you printed this thread out it would weigh more than most SUL set ups!

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Turned ugly on 05/30/2013 20:12:42 MDT Print View

Monitor stove
Duane

J C
(Joomy) - M
Re: I guess I better get on Yang's train to 15 pages on 05/30/2013 20:15:21 MDT Print View

"Now that this pity thread has turned ridiculous and is almost 10 pages, I figure I need to do my part to get it to 15."

It's not a pity thread. Just one person who is being personally attacked for calmly and sincerely voicing a legitimate concern.

Knock it off.

Edited by Joomy on 05/30/2013 20:15:56 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
2 legit 2 quit. on 05/30/2013 20:58:23 MDT Print View

"It's not a pity thread. Just one person who is being personally attacked for calmly and sincerely voicing a legitimate concern."

+1

Someone who has done what they can to receive fair treatment for a legitimate issue, and has received unfair disparaging remarks and deleted retorts from the business operator. (And lots of support from others.)

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
SMD on 05/30/2013 21:01:51 MDT Print View

"4. Now, it came to the interesting part. Because of the defective Net Tent, I was not able to use the tent for my soon coming trip. "

"They are still brand new. But I probably need to use them this weekend."

What was the trip you were unable to use the tent for? This makes it sound like a weekender. Probably doesn't make a difference to some but not having a new tent for a weekend doesn't sound like much of a put out. Who knows, maybe it was for your PCT thru and it derailed your trip. Just curious.

Edited by rlnunix on 05/30/2013 21:04:04 MDT.

Jim Milstein
(JimSubzero) - M

Locale: New Uraniborg CO
Game On! on 05/30/2013 21:02:11 MDT Print View

When we refer to Yang, are we calling him by his family name or his personal name? Could be either. But, this is not the main issue.

As to the main issue, I'm with Yang. His story is completely plausible, and, therefore, SMD is behaving discourteously, improperly, and foolishly with respect to its own interests. Let this be the summary.

Or, we could go on for indefinitely to see whether we can set length records, first on the BPL site and then for planet earth! The stars are the limit! Game on!

Craig .
(zipper) - F

Locale: LOST, but making good time
More stuff on 05/30/2013 21:09:12 MDT Print View

ring

22 1 1 25 17 4 8 26 17 5 8

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: 2 legit 2 quit. on 05/30/2013 21:32:29 MDT Print View

You are right Bob. I apologize if I offended. This thread just got so heated and ridiculous so fast it was impossible for me to take it seriously after a very short time.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Turned ugly on 05/30/2013 21:38:45 MDT Print View

What is that? Does it still work?

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
... on 05/30/2013 21:43:22 MDT Print View

Dafuq did I just read?

Justin Mckinney
(sierrajud) - M

Locale: California
I have to throw in my 2 cents on 05/30/2013 21:57:21 MDT Print View

Jim Milstein, you have the best user photo, super cool!!! I'm going with Yang on this one

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: 2 legit 2 quit. on 05/30/2013 22:17:46 MDT Print View

Holy Crap, Ken. Where have you been?

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
My view of this thread on 05/30/2013 22:33:00 MDT Print View

Customer Service

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
SMD on 05/30/2013 22:44:35 MDT Print View

Yang Lu,
Wish I could speak for BPL membership, because if I could, I would apologize profusely to you for the nasty responses to your thread. Very sorry.
Sam Farrington

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: SMD on 05/30/2013 22:46:32 MDT Print View

Thank you Sam for the nice message.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: My view of this thread on 05/30/2013 23:04:13 MDT Print View

Zorg, for a while there I thought that maybe you and Scree were one and the same, but now I see that Scree has the sense to step out of the way of the landslide.

I love standing at the edge of the window listening to the echoes of some lost soul way down in the bowels of the oubliette. At least with your hooting I can gauge the depths to which some people are willing to fall.

Have they been feeding you? I do hope you get enough to eat down there. Holler if you need some light.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: SMD on 05/31/2013 00:07:26 MDT Print View

Yes, Yang please let us know if SMD comes through for you. You know where most of us stand on this issue.

Ryan Nakahara
(kife42) - F

Locale: Hawaii
re: SMD on 05/31/2013 01:01:35 MDT Print View

Ok, I skimmed over this thread and here's my opinion.

re: 2. The image make it look like holes, but it's normal for netting to have stretch marks. I have a feeling those are not actual holes. Anyway, moving on...

re: 3. ...after I cut the threads the remaining stitches would still be durable.
I don't think Yang is even talking about the hanging threads. I think he means the loose stitching. In which case, all you'd need to do is even it out a bit.

re: 4. I was not able to use the tent... Then I can wait for the cuben version until...
What? This does not even make sense. He completely skipped the part about asking for full refund.

re: 5. ...left a note in the package.
We see the email, but what exactly did the note say?? In the end it doesn't matter what this email says, because if he wrote a note with the return that gave SMD the impression he was cancelling the order, that's why they did not refund shipping.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: re: SMD on 05/31/2013 01:32:32 MDT Print View

Are you another Scree?!

It is funny that even at this moment some people are still looking for excuses to blame a consumer but ignore some very basic facts.

If I remember correctly (I know, I know someone will challenge this word but as I am a honest person I do not want to make up something I do not clearly remember) the note I left was basically the print of the email you saw! Is that enough for you?

It looks like you do not have question about the following paragraph. Do you?

> Yang,
>
> After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs.
> The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and
> only weight 1 lb.
>
> Please send to
>
> Six Moon Designs
> 8250 SW Nimbus Ave
> Beaverton, OR 97008
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Moak
> --
> Six Moon Designs
> Innovative Ultralight Adventure Gear
> www.sixmoondesigns.com
> 503.430.2303
>
>
>> Brandon,
>>
>> None of them have been used. So we are fine. I am thinking to return
>> them all and buy them later when your cuben version is in stock. But
>> since this is a material defective and not my fault, it does not make
>> sense for me to pay for the shipping to return them. Can you afford
>> the shipping cost? Do you have a way to issue return label? Or you
>> can reimburse the shipping after you receive them?




"re: 5. ...left a note in the package.
We see the email, but what exactly did the note say?? In the end it doesn't matter what this email says, because if he wrote a note with the return that gave SMD the impression he was cancelling the order, that's why they did not refund shipping."

Trace Richardson
(tracedef) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Deleted Responses from Ron on 05/31/2013 04:42:43 MDT Print View

What's up with Ron's two deleted responses? Would like to have heard Ron's responses but he deleted them. If you're going to speak your mind, stand behind your own words ... Especially on a trivial, if nothing else, bump in the road with a customer. His subjects hinted at a legal response, which indicates that he's not getting the bigger picture, if that is the case ....

scree ride
(scree)
why the hate on 05/31/2013 05:24:07 MDT Print View

Why gang up on a retailer that most of you have never used much less know anything about? Ron wisely deleted his words, apparently deciding not to get caught up in this witch hunt. Quality control means defective products don't leave the store. How many other examples are there out there of Six Moons lack of quality. None. Repeat NONE! i used capital letters that time. I hope nobody takes offense. What a sad group.

BER ---
(BER) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Move on on 05/31/2013 06:52:23 MDT Print View

So an issue occurred. The grievance was made public. The public has clearly heard.

It remains a matter between SMD and their customer.

Further discussion (and much of the prior discussion) does not add to the situation. Move on.

Anybody heard of any innovative new gear coming down the pipeline that we can get excited about?

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Turned ugly on 05/31/2013 06:55:02 MDT Print View

Zorg, that is a Monitor stove with a silent burner, uses kerosene. It works fine, I just had to remove the pump tube so I could access the NRV in the bottom, it had come loose and all then had to be resoldered back. My ugliest stove out of 90+. Although I have a multi-thru hike MSR X-GK II that I picked up that is not pretty either, that runs very good.
Duane

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Move on on 05/31/2013 06:56:10 MDT Print View

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=77784&startat=100

Been tried. You just are going to wait these things out.

BER ---
(BER) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Ken on 05/31/2013 07:23:31 MDT Print View

Well, it was worth a try.
I, at least, will now move on. Have a fine day all.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Turned ugly on 05/31/2013 07:31:53 MDT Print View

Duane I think my dad really does have one of those, and I think he still uses it.

He uses this thing too:Blaster

He seemed very excited about using this to "preheat" his MYOG stuff.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
meh on 05/31/2013 07:38:33 MDT Print View

Everyone has bad days. Sometimes store owners make mistakes and sometimes customers make big deals out of small things. SMD is awesome. I use many of their products and have never had issue with a product or customer service.

That being said, this thread was awesome. Thank you.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Disagree on 05/31/2013 07:44:19 MDT Print View

I'm going to disagree with the general consensus. And will probably be accused of attacking Yang for doing so but that is not my intent. I've never done business with SMD or know anyone there so I'm not biased in favor of them.

"It is funny that even at this moment some people are still looking for excuses to blame a consumer but ignore some very basic facts."

Well, the basic facts are not as clear as suggested here.

You ask for replacements for both. Fair enough.

" I am thinking I should get a replacement for both the Tarp and NetTent."

He thinks the trap should be OK and gives you an RMA for the NetTent which he also refers to as the shelter.

"The Haven NetTent can be returned for repair or exchange. We will look at the issue more closely once we get the shelter in.

Please use the RMA code 2013-0502A Include a note that says that you are sending the shelter back due to some small holes."

He did not authorize you to return the tarp. Maybe he should have and maybe not. But you two should have worked that out so it was agreed upon what would be returned before sending anything back.

"After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs. The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and only weight 1 lb."

Again, he is referring to the NetTent. He probably should have stated that explicitly. But one thing we know on BPL is weights. The NetTent weighs 1 lb. From their website:

The Haven NetTent is now 2 oz. heavier, for a final weight of 16 oz.

The combination weighs over 2 lbs.

Even after all that, they probably would have replaced or repaired both items and sent them back as per their stated policy:

Our products are fully warranted to the original owner against defects in materials and workmanship. If our product fails due to a manufacturing defect, we will repair the product, without charge, or replace it, at our discretion.

You are responsible for paying for postage for all products returned for Warranty Coverage. If the item is covered under Warranty, we'll absorb the return shipping cost.

So you were entitled to get the items you ordered repaired or replaced and have the shipping reimbursed. But you decided to cancel the order instead. Which is covered by:

We are confident you will pleased with your Six Moon Designs equipment. However, if for some reason your purchase from Six Moon Designs does not meet your needs, you may return any unused items within 30 days for a full refund (less shipping charges).

Which, in the end, is all that matters. No matter how we got here, you cancelled your order because you wanted something else, the cuben version. If you had just wanted what you ordered fixed or replaced, you shouldn't have cancelled your order.

It appears to me that SMD followed their clearly stated policies. I'm not sure how that leads to 11 pages of castigation on a website.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 07:56:45 MDT Print View

Randy, that was very well said. I also have no intention to disparage Yang, nor have I ever dealt with SMD. I have also been in the OP's position where I felt terribly wronged by a company; generally I have kind of gotten spoiled in terms of customer service in quite a few dealings with exped, ruff wear, enlightened equipment, MLD...the whole bunch. So I can completely see how you would feel wronged by not getting your shipping costs back.

But Randy was right on the nose when he said it's not so cut and dried, and I can easily see Ron's side that he felt you were just taking advantage (whether that was your INTENT or not, I can see how he would THINK that). What was wrong with the tarp? Why did you return that?

Either way, I can't believe this is still going on about $9. It isn't even the principle of the thing...we've long ago beaten that to death. Yes, Ron should have been nicer. But the OP is not totally innocent in this, either.

I'm going for a hike this weekend. You folks have a nice day.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 07:57:01 MDT Print View

"It appears to me that SMD followed their clearly stated policies. I'm not sure how that leads to 11 pages of castigation on a website."

Because Brandon said they would refund the shipping if Yang sent in the tent, which is in writing no less, and then Ron overruled the decision once the tent was received by Six Moons. Why are you confused?

Karple T
(ctracyverizon)

Locale: Mid-Alantic
** on 05/31/2013 08:15:30 MDT Print View

**

Edited by ctracyverizon on 06/12/2013 07:58:05 MDT.

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
I have no confidence in SMD on 05/31/2013 08:44:09 MDT Print View

I ordered a Outfitter, one guy out was not even sewn to the tent. That's it for me.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Turned ugly on 05/31/2013 08:59:05 MDT Print View

Jennifer, I have one like that, but with a red, wooden handle, mine is newer, I like that older style torch. They REALLY put the flame out. COOOLLL!!
Duane

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 09:01:45 MDT Print View

Jennifer and Randy, can you tell me what Branden agreed upon based on emails?

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: I have no confidence in SMD on 05/31/2013 09:14:51 MDT Print View

"I ordered a Outfitter, one guy out was not even sewn to the tent. That's it for me."

Uh oh Scree thats 2 one more and you have a pattern

Any one who owns or operates a business knows how this should have played out Regardless of policy or Rons Comments about "unforseeable future of said contract". This whole thing is bad for business and thats what we are talking about business.

Oh and people that think that I or others weren't going to buy from him anyway are utterly wrong. I have a gear problem and buy too much of it and was eyeing several of ther products but I have no wish to get cought up in a fiasco like this should I get a product that I am not happy with REGARDLESS of track record for quality gear.

I have personally spent over 6000 dollars(insurance Check) on gear since January and am still buying. I was eyeing their lunar Duo. I had to replace a lot of stolen gear and SMD is now going to miss out on my money along with Yangs.

So from a business owners stand point this whole deal is not worth it and I would just change my return policy..... Plus I think that you would probably get more sales if you paid shipping on all returned goods... Its 9 dollars? Seriously?

Edited by needsAbath on 05/31/2013 09:17:56 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 09:23:54 MDT Print View

Yang - why don't you give it a rest? After all, isn't this discussion distasteful for you?The Pity Trian Derailed

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
The important point on 05/31/2013 09:34:40 MDT Print View


How many other examples are there out there of Six Moons lack of quality. None. Repeat NONE! i used capital letters that time. I hope nobody takes offense.


Paid shrill ? Worst damage control ever ?


We are losing sight of bob, and the core issue.
--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/31/2013 09:36:15 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:12:25 MDT Print View

and now we have a few more people with issues with some gear ...

i wonder how many people have such issues gear but never bring it up due to the BPL rah rah rah frenzy ;)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:17:56 MDT Print View

Ghs

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:18:55 MDT Print View

and now we have a few more people with issues with some gear ...

Nope not possible. Clearly these people are liars, had a bad day, dont know what quality gear is, cant communicate properly, and arent educated in retail law.

GICH

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:23:16 MDT Print View

Hey Travis, what does that weigh?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:31:35 MDT Print View

At one time, the few cottage industry manufacturers were somewhat insulated from public dissatisfaction since they didn't have much competition. But that is changing as more companies start to market this kind of gear. Given that, these businesses need to pay attention to customer feedback on the Internet... the internet is their main marketing vehicle, and it can be a double edged sword as customers use the Internet to research goods and read reviews.

Ron didn't do himself any favors by engaging in the conversation in a confrontational manner -- he probably did himself more harm than Yang's initial post. Reminiscent of the POE debacle here on BPL, which David Ure pointed out. Had Ron posted here that he had reviewed the purchase and will reimburse the shipping charges the thread would have died, and Ron would have been a hero, enhancing his company. Unfortunately the thread has dragged on and will continue to do so -- all of a big negative for SMD. So Ron won a small battle with a customer, and long term may lose the war for new and repeat customers. Even if he changed his mind today, the damage has been done.

I side with Yang on this. He bought a $360 shelter, not a $79 Wal-Mart special. Given that both the inner and outer had manufacturing defects, why would he want a replacement that might have the same quality control, not to mention the lack of quick communication. We pay premium dollars for cottage goods, and as customers we should demand premium workmanship and customer handling. No "Pass Go Free" cards for them.

FWIW, I have purchased gear from SMD, so I am a customer.

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
Warranty v. Fit for use on 05/31/2013 10:31:49 MDT Print View

The warranty is irrelevant to this issue.

A warranty is designed to cover a specified period of use which begins once the purchaser takes possession and determines the product is fit for use.

This could be a product with no warranty and it wouldn't change SMD's responsibility to pay the return shipping.

1. There was a contract: $ for a product.
2. Yang delivered agreed amount of cash; SMD failed to deliver product as advertised - assuming it was defective.
3. Legally, absent any other agreement at the time of purchase, SMD must bear the loss because of its breach, not Yang. Their loss in this case is the shipping to get their tent back.

There are 3 reasons SMD should refund Yang's costs (loss): the first being that it is just the way the law works, the second because they agreed in writing once the issue arose and the third because of SMD's own self interest in its public image:

1. SMD has a legal obligation regardless of any agreement or promise or need to do the right thing. Its their legal obligation. Plain and simple.
2. They promised to refund the shipping in writing. This is really a 2nd contract that they also breached.
3. If SMD does not agree with 1 and 2 for whatever reason (convenience, bad advice or heightened sense of self-importance) they should have been more courteous for no other reason than courtesy and fairness to a customer - which what I think Brandon was doing instinctively, as most of us would.

This are a lot of opinions here to which everyone is entitled, but analyzing this on the assumption that SMD is not subject to contract law is just plain misinformed.

Nuff said.

I am going hiking girls and boys!!!!

Ciao
Derrick

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Re: Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:35:14 MDT Print View

"Hey Travis, what does that weigh?"

That is SMD new UL CIRCOLE 1200.. Sleeps 1200 people and weighs 2000 lbs.. Under 2 pounds per person.

Pitching takes for ever though. And if you dont like shipping to return it is really steep.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
SMD on 05/31/2013 10:37:47 MDT Print View

"Because Brandon said they would refund the shipping if Yang sent in the tent, which is in writing no less, and then Ron overruled the decision once the tent was received by Six Moons. Why are you confused?"

The problem appears to be with your reading comprehension. :)

Nowhere does Brandon say that they will refund shipping if he returns both pieces and cancels his order.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
de-freinded on 05/31/2013 10:40:49 MDT Print View

I just found out other cottage gear manufacturers have de-friended Ron on face book and no longer following his tweets, in an attempt to show support to Yangs cause.

Ima start making posters.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
SMD on 05/31/2013 10:43:56 MDT Print View

"Jennifer and Randy, can you tell me what Branden agreed upon based on emails?"

He agreed to refund the shipping on the NetTent sent in for repairs/replacement. He failed to address your statement that you thought you'd return them all and buy cuben later. (Which he should of.) You then assumed that was OK. But when he said it would fit in a tyvek envelope and weigh 1 pound, didn't that indicate to you that there was a disconnect between what each of you were thinking? He certainly didn't tell you that he agreed to you cancelling your order and refunding your shipping.

scree ride
(scree)
now we have two on 05/31/2013 10:56:30 MDT Print View

I still have a very nice tent with no issues. Dig deeper, I'm sure you can find something to change that. While you're at it, change it for everybody else who has received quality equipment from SMD.
Everybody accusing me of getting paid, all those who don't own the equipment, and all of those lookie loos out there up in arms, you have no clue. The customer is always right is not right. The refund was for one pound of shipping, not two and not for a return but for an exchange. No one was defrauded. The only one who came out ahead was USPS.
Anyways, you all have a nice day.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 10:57:49 MDT Print View

The entire thing actually weighs 37 ounces. It's made of unicorn testicle hair woven expertly together by elves.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 05/31/2013 11:02:57 MDT Print View

What I find appalling about this thread, at this point, is the repeated personal attacks from two people on the OP, who has been nothing but respectful. Disagree with his complaint if you wish, but leave off the personal attacks and sarcasm, please. I believe we're all adults here, and should be able to engage in a discussion of this nature without acting like high school mean girls.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
The only thing missing from this thread..... on 05/31/2013 11:13:20 MDT Print View

....would be this:

http://fox13now.com/2013/05/31/viral-video-prancercising/

You're welcome.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 05/31/2013 11:27:40 MDT.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
SMD on 05/31/2013 11:13:46 MDT Print View

"I side with Yang on this. He bought a $360 shelter, not a $79 Wal-Mart special. Given that both the inner and outer had manufacturing defects, why would he want a replacement that might have the same quality control, not to mention the lack of quick communication."

I can see your point Nick. But he never said that because of the workmanship that he wanted his money back. He wanted his money back because he was no longer in a rush and wanted to get the same model but in Cuben.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 11:13:47 MDT Print View

"The entire thing actually weighs 37 ounces. It's made of unicorn testicle hair woven expertly together by elves."

Travis - the issue I see is that seam sealing would add 7 lbs.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 11:15:33 MDT Print View

"Travis - the issue I see is that seam sealing would add 7 lbs."

If you thin the silicone with the tears of baby seals, it actually makes the shelter lighter. True story. Just googled it.

Edit: I stand corrected. The tears need to be unethically harvested to receive the weight benefit. Asking the baby seal to voluntarily surrender the tears doesn't work for some reason.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 05/31/2013 11:28:33 MDT.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: hmmmmm on 05/31/2013 11:24:49 MDT Print View

"The entire thing actually weighs 37 ounces. It's made of unicorn testicle hair woven expertly together by elves."

I thought it was 1049 grams? and was a new hemp product?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Damage Control? on 05/31/2013 11:26:16 MDT Print View

I just did a Google search for Six Moons Designs, filtered for the last week.

The number one hit is this thread. #6 is a thread on White Blaze referring to this one.

Not good publicity.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
WWGVPD on 05/31/2013 11:34:44 MDT Print View

What Would GLen Van Peski DO?

I wonder what the other guys would have done given the same situation?

and if any of them would chime in on this PR disaster? LOL

robert v
(mtnbob123) - F

Locale: Upstate South Carolina
SMD Problems on 05/31/2013 11:35:12 MDT Print View

Maybe the truth is: The whole issue would have never had "legs" if SMD's quality and customer service had been on par. Many people on here know that SMD's quality and service are sub-par, but have been too polite to talk about it, and they just chose not do business with them again.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: SMD Problems on 05/31/2013 11:38:12 MDT Print View

"Many people on here know that SMD's quality and service are sub-par, but have been too polite to talk about it"

word

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Warranty v. Fit for use on 05/31/2013 11:40:25 MDT Print View

Total bs on your contract law ideas.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: SMD Problems on 05/31/2013 11:42:19 MDT Print View

"Many people on here know that SMD's quality and service are sub-par, but have been too polite to talk about it, and they just chose not do business with them again."

I don't know if we can unilaterally say the quality and service is sub-par. However, usually when customers are unhappy, they move on and just don't do business with the company anymore without saying anything.

In contrast, Lawson Kline at http://www.lawsonequipment.com/ sends out a customer satisfaction survey to ensure his customers are happy. And I would guess he looks at any negative feedback to see if there is some sort of process breakdown on his part that needs to be addressed or fixed.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
smd quality - cottage vendors in general on 05/31/2013 11:46:40 MDT Print View

We need more objective reviews in general. But we do not need mindless bashing to support a noobs mistakes.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: smd quality - cottage vendors in general on 05/31/2013 11:50:52 MDT Print View

"We need more objective reviews in general. But we do not need mindless bashing to support a noobs mistakes."

LOL uses mindless bashing in the same sentance as calling some one he doesnt know a NOOB

Yorg is such a noob and apparently a hypocrite.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Warranty v. Fit for use on 05/31/2013 11:51:15 MDT Print View

Derrick, thanks for the message. It was very educational and I learned a lot from your post.

peter vacco
(fluff@inreach.com) - M

Locale: no. california
Re: WWGVPD on 05/31/2013 11:51:31 MDT Print View

Glen VanPlaski would do whatever could possible be termed as "the right thing", because he is a gracious individual, and that is the wasy he ahs been since birth.

as a cottage manufacturer, has anybody considered that it is the height of the busy season, that bpl moves/second-guesses vastly faster than any form of cottage-second-part time-job individual ever cared to, and that this Entire fiasco could very well be simply a "xhit fell thru the cracks" / "comdey of errors' scenario ?

until i am aware of a proven pattern of lies and deception from one or the other (or both)(federal politics all but immediately comes to mind). i am more than eager to let this issue be handled by the individuals involved.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: Warranty v. Fit for use on 05/31/2013 12:11:09 MDT Print View

Yea right. Be careful trying his version of contract law in general court. Btw, why don't you try your claims in small claims court?

Could it be that the pity train is more fun? And you know that a judge would side with smd ?

Edited by BurnNotice on 05/31/2013 12:37:04 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: smd quality - cottage vendors in general on 05/31/2013 12:35:05 MDT Print View

whining

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
I never got a call on 05/31/2013 12:42:20 MDT Print View

When the Tie-0ut loop was missing on my SMD tent, I never got a call (left VM an hour after receiving it) never replied to my emails. After 4 days I got ahold of them..i returned tent and had to pay shipping. FWIW

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
Let me add... on 05/31/2013 12:53:51 MDT Print View

I had to pay shipping because I told them I wanted to return it. They did offer to remedy the situation but I immediately lost faith in them when the sewing was so bad. I mean, sewing is half the product.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: I never got a call on 05/31/2013 12:55:53 MDT Print View

"When the Tie-0ut loop was missing on my SMD tent, I never got a call (left VM an hour after receiving it) never replied to my emails. After 4 days I got ahold of them..i returned tent and had to pay shipping. FWIW"

I just got off the phone with Zorg he said you are clearly a whiner you should have just sewed it up and moved on posting a positive review on BPL for said items. He also said you should call Ron again and tlak to him man to man over the phone.

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
Your a weird dude, Josh Brock, ...a weird dude. on 05/31/2013 13:01:47 MDT Print View

See Subject.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Let me add... on 05/31/2013 13:02:06 MDT Print View

Seriously? Does anybody read the return policy? Is this due our 3rd world educational system?

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 13:04:53 MDT Print View

Thats a great Story Jason, but didn't the actual series of events go more like this :

1) SMD delivered an excellent product
2) You decided you wanted a different color from a different company, but needed a way to return the item.
3) You set up your shelter on the Jersey Shore during hurricane Sandy, but the SMD tent held up to the challenge.
4) You took the tent to Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Texas to put the gear directly in the path of F4 and F5 tornados, but the shelter would not budge. At one point, not caught on video, but remored to be true, the shelter grew in size to protect a family caught out in the storms, and continue to grow until thousands of people were sheltered from the hail and wind. It was truly a miracle product.
5) But the color still bothered you, so eventually you gave up and took a knife to it, removing a tie out, and claiming a defective product.


Admit it, That is how it really went. Nothing comes defective, and everyone here knows that. That is a fact !

The paths some people take to get out of gear they regret purchasing just blows my mind.

--G.B.--

Casey Bowden
(clbowden) - MLife

Locale: Berkeley Hills
Another Example of Poor SMD Quality Control on 05/31/2013 13:06:31 MDT Print View

Last June Manfred bought a cuben Haven and net tent from SMD, the latter of which came in at 16 ounces when the website stated it was 14 ounces. Here's the link to the thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=65221&disable_pagination=1

The discussion remained civil throughout but the SMD website still shows the net tent at 14 ounces even though SMD said in the thread that 16 ounces is the new weight based on the new mesh they are using.

That said, in the thread SMD also said they would update the weight in 2013, so I guess they have time...

Diane Pinkers
(dipink) - M

Locale: Western Washington
Please? on 05/31/2013 13:15:28 MDT Print View

Could you all please go for a hike?

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
torches on 05/31/2013 13:17:40 MDT Print View

In Mannfred's thread, someone jumped in and talked about "bringing out the torches" and Mannfred quite civilly stated he just wanted a "sensible discussion about reasonable expectations."

Pretty sure the OP was (and still is) only looking for this also...

--B.R.--

Edited by DaveT on 05/31/2013 13:18:47 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Please? on 05/31/2013 13:18:50 MDT Print View

drama

What? How will we hit 15 pages?

Raymond Estrella
(rayestrella) - MLife

Locale: Northern Minnesota
Interesting time killer on 05/31/2013 14:33:49 MDT Print View

My 3-day weekend fell apart so I decided to do some light reading... ;-)

Personally my take is just that if SMD told him they would refund the shipping they should have. To not do so is pretty lame in my book, and invites the lambasting.

Zorg is a funny troll. (Or a sock puppet, I am trying to figure that out.) But you all know how I feel about people that hide behind fake names. (Nature Boy is that you?)

Jeffrey Whynot
(jcwhynot) - M

Locale: Northeast
Yikes on 05/31/2013 14:35:02 MDT Print View

Can't wait to use my new SMD Lunar Solo I got this past winter. Ron and his son helped me before and after the purchase. I've got no beef. Hopefully this doesn't leave a big mark.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Your a weird dude, Josh Brock, ...a weird dude. on 05/31/2013 14:36:14 MDT Print View

Indeed I am... =0

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Interesting time killer on 05/31/2013 14:41:54 MDT Print View

"But you all know how I feel about people that hide behind fake names. (Nature Boy is that you?)"

That is his internet name google him. He lives in oregon is and advocate for gun rights and hates chinese shipping things to the US... Thats just what i found in a couple of seconds

But clearly this is his thing getting in to confrontations behind a computer screens.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Interesting time killer on 05/31/2013 14:50:09 MDT Print View

Ray - if it IS Nature Boy, we can find out by posting a shoe question.

M J
(mj451at2) - M

Locale: Somewhere out hiking!!!
BAHAHAHAHA... on 05/31/2013 15:11:16 MDT Print View

I posted this thread on WhiteBlaze as a "heads up" about concerns with SMD... The first reply was from a Moderator, Sly(Hikertrash)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?95649-Interesting-SMD-Customer-Service(or-lack-there-of)-Thread


Email replies are in the OP.

Seems to me there was a lack of understanding on Yang Lu's part and some miscommunication. Brandon told him to send it back in a priority mail tyvek envelope (1 lb) which would not have cost $21.60. Ron's response was rather than getting an exchange, he canceled the order.

Of the 10 replies, 2 were WhiteBlaze moderators, the second being Alligator(DB extraordinaire)Closing the thread with these comments:

This is a customer disagreement posted to another website. The customer has not weighed in on it here. Best to leave your comments over on the other site instead of dragging it over here. Thanks.

I hope that Yang will indeed post there, so that other hikers will be able to determine for themselves if SMD products/quality and most importantly, customer service is worthy of their time and money...

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 05/31/2013 15:13:17 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/08/2013 18:56:03 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: Interesting time killer on 05/31/2013 15:48:46 MDT Print View

We're so close to 15 pages that it is ok to attack the messenger.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Still unresolved? Can I Help? on 05/31/2013 15:49:10 MDT Print View

LOL Ron already comented on this thread and then deleted them so im sure he is apprised of the situation....

But if you'd like to help crop dusting Ron on the street or in a restaurant would be great! and then when he smells it say that was for my man YANG!!!

Ps Daniel you are to nice....cut it out.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 15:52:22 MDT Print View

I'm going to disagree with the general consensus. And will probably be accused of attacking Yang for doing so but that is not my intent. I've never done business with SMD or know anyone there so I'm not biased in favor of them.

"It is funny that even at this moment some people are still looking for excuses to blame a consumer but ignore some very basic facts."

Well, the basic facts are not as clear as suggested here.

You ask for replacements for both. Fair enough.

" I am thinking I should get a replacement for both the Tarp and NetTent."

He thinks the trap should be OK and gives you an RMA for the NetTent which he also refers to as the shelter.

"The Haven NetTent can be returned for repair or exchange. We will look at the issue more closely once we get the shelter in.

Please use the RMA code 2013-0502A Include a note that says that you are sending the shelter back due to some small holes."

He did not authorize you to return the tarp. Maybe he should have and maybe not. But you two should have worked that out so it was agreed upon what would be returned before sending anything back.

"After we get the shelter in we can reimburse you for shipping costs. The shelter should fit nicely in a priority mail tyvek envelope and only weight 1 lb."

Again, he is referring to the NetTent. He probably should have stated that explicitly. But one thing we know on BPL is weights. The NetTent weighs 1 lb. From their website:

The Haven NetTent is now 2 oz. heavier, for a final weight of 16 oz.

The combination weighs over 2 lbs.

Even after all that, they probably would have replaced or repaired both items and sent them back as per their stated policy:


Our products are fully warranted to the original owner against defects in materials and workmanship. If our product fails due to a manufacturing defect, we will repair the product, without charge, or replace it, at our discretion.

You are responsible for paying for postage for all products returned for Warranty Coverage. If the item is covered under Warranty, we'll absorb the return shipping cost.

So you were entitled to get the items you ordered repaired or replaced and have the shipping reimbursed. But you decided to cancel the order instead. Which is covered by:

We are confident you will pleased with your Six Moon Designs equipment. However, if for some reason your purchase from Six Moon Designs does not meet your needs, you may return any unused items within 30 days for a full refund (less shipping charges).



Which, in the end, is all that matters. No matter how we got here, you cancelled your order because you wanted something else, the cuben version. If you had just wanted what you ordered fixed or replaced, you shouldn't have cancelled your order.

It appears to me that SMD followed their clearly stated policies.


+1

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 16:02:14 MDT Print View

John Abdela hates Yang.

I bets its cause of the time he spent in korea.


So close to 15!

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 16:06:41 MDT Print View

I can neither confirm nor deny any involvement or non-involvement in the DPRK.


Oh, and its Lorax now... get it right ;)

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Policy on 05/31/2013 16:12:48 MDT Print View

Are most cottage manufacturers return policy filled with so many technicalities?

Can someone explain to me why if they ship a faulty product, the person who gets that product has to eat any charge for returning it, regardless of exchange or not.

its like buying a hamburger, they get it wrong, i take it back and say i just want my money back, and they take out 30 cents from my refund to compensate for the wage they had to pay the worker to make my sandwich wrong to begin with...

15 yet?

Edit: its all moot, the return policy, because once yang was informed by a customer service representative that he would be refunded shipping... That overruled the policy, which the company is allowed to do, not the customer. If the customer service representative did not have the authority to override the policy... Perhaps he should pay the 20 dollars.

$20 has turned into multiple accounts of faulty products, bad service, and generally bad advertising.

By the way, at this point, i dont even rememmber which company i am talking about

Edited by fitztravels on 05/31/2013 16:18:11 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 16:13:02 MDT Print View

Somewhere in an alternate universe:

Ron :" I'm sorry to hear about your issues. Normally we don't refund shipping, and I see now my company said they would. We want you to like your purchase, so, what i can do is either refund your shipping, or give you a code for a discount off your next purchase that will more than cover shipping. Our cuben should arrive by $DATE, and I'll be glad to put you at the top of the list, and call you when they arrive.

We know you have choices, and it's prime trip season, let us know what you want to do. Call me on my cell for fastest service at 867-5309.

Thanks,
SMD"

This universe: "he might never buy anything again so it is best to pocket the shipping"

Hope that helps, for people just tuning in
--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/31/2013 16:17:58 MDT.

robert v
(mtnbob123) - F

Locale: Upstate South Carolina
Hmmmmmm on 05/31/2013 16:16:09 MDT Print View

That would go against what I have seen with SMD

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Re on 05/31/2013 16:16:10 MDT Print View

All SMD needs to do to remedy this situation is get some new product to market at an amazing new weight. Dispersions will be forgotten. Ounces outweigh PR.

Bases loaded. Frankle at the plate.

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
Gross BOOB....the outfitter only comes in 1 color so your also DUMBA$$ BOB on 05/31/2013 16:22:26 MDT Print View

!!!!!!!!!

M J
(mj451at2) - M

Locale: Somewhere out hiking!!!
Fanboy... on 05/31/2013 16:23:02 MDT Print View

John Abela, you are such a Blatant "RonBoy" it clouds ur intelligence...

In closing the facts are simple, the Six Moon Designs “Skyscape X” shelter is the finest one-piece solo shelter I have ever encountered.

Then this...

I think there have only been around fifty of these things made so far. Except one that I sold early last year I have never seen one for sale anywhere. I got one sitting in my backpack, but not ready to give it up. Drop me a message in a few weeks after I see what SMD is announcing for their 2013 new product line-up.

Thanks for reading!

-Abela

(disclaimer: I purchased this product with my own money. It was not given to me. I am under no obligation to write this review.

Soooo, you paid retail from Ron for not one, but 2 tents, yet you sold one, and based on their 2013 offering(better designed, improved, etc) the other maybe for sale... Hmmmmm... If it walks like a fanboy, posts like a fanboy....

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Shelter on 05/31/2013 16:30:44 MDT Print View

Abela does make a point about returning the net but not the tarp.

But i think it is reasonable to consider them a UNIT, even if bought seperatelt BUT at the same time. If one part of the unit is faulty, the whole unit is faulty especially considering the interwoven natue of the items.

High end Restaurants have been known to provide full refunds on whoe meals even though technically the items are listed seperately when something is not right, burnt steak, etc...

Why?

So posts like this dont happen.

Edited by fitztravels on 05/31/2013 16:33:54 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD on 05/31/2013 16:32:55 MDT Print View

Ablabela is one of the most qualified reviewers online. He buys multiples to check consistency ! Tens of thousands of dollars a year get pumped into the industry by John. He is an amazing resource. He is a genuine SUL resource, and has put together tables of shelter data out of pocket.


But yes, fanboy, of numerous brands.

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/31/2013 23:58:44 MDT.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD on 05/31/2013 16:57:29 MDT Print View

Ablabela is one of the most qualified reviewers online. He buys multiples to check consistency ! Tens of thousands of dollars a year get pumped into the industry by John. He is an amazing resource. He is a genuine SUL resource, and has put together tables of shelter data out of pocket. But yes, fanboy.


True. I admit it. I am a fanboy.

But let's just be clear here... I am a fanboy of almost *every* cottage industry company!

There are only three companies within the entire cottage industry that I have encountered over the last few years that I simply will not buy any gear from.

Do I stand up for the cottage companies out there? Heck yeah, and I have never made any claim against that. Do I take it to the excess sometimes? Yeah, I will totally admit to that too.

At the same time, I call BS when BS needs to be said.


Thanks for pointing out my truths and strengths GB, I appreciate the support.


(edit: woot, looks like I am lucky number for page 15!!!!)

Edited by JohnAbela on 05/31/2013 17:00:23 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Thanks for your dedication! on 05/31/2013 17:02:35 MDT Print View

martyr


It wouldn't have been possible without you!

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Which 3 on 05/31/2013 17:06:47 MDT Print View

John, I'm curious as to which 3 cottage companies you avoid.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Thanks for your dedication! on 05/31/2013 17:09:16 MDT Print View

Zorg, your dedication is also amazing. A custom meme! How avant-garde!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Which 3 on 05/31/2013 17:09:55 MDT Print View

He only avoids the ones that don't offer him a discount.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Which 3 on 05/31/2013 17:10:54 MDT Print View

John, I'm curious as to which 3 cottage companies you avoid.


Come on now Travis... this post is not about trash talking cottage companies!!

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Which 3 on 05/31/2013 17:15:45 MDT Print View

I honestly didn't mean it to trash talk them; just curious that's all. You have waaaaaayyyyy more experience with gear than I do, so it piqued my interest.

There's enough trash talking on this thread as it is...

Crap, did I just contribute to the TT'ing?

Edited by T.L. on 05/31/2013 17:17:14 MDT.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Trashing on 05/31/2013 17:16:47 MDT Print View

After 15 pages, anything is fair game

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Trashing on 05/31/2013 17:18:24 MDT Print View

LOL well said guys, well said.


comedy central



ps:

I would just like to thank the OP and all involved in this thread...

I have been wondering what in the hell it was going to take to get Ken to change back to his usual usersname and avatar!!

That alone we should all pat ourselves on the back for achieving as a group!

Edited by JohnAbela on 05/31/2013 17:30:43 MDT.

Jason Mahler
(jrmahler) - M

Locale: Michigan
So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 17:32:26 MDT Print View

1. Zorg is a tool
2. Yang is about the most patient person in the world. He started the thread, but isn't the one keeping in going, but still takes the brunt of the criticism
3. Both sides are likely right in a way, but the public will almost always side with the customer because everyone what's dealt with poor customer service at some point
4. Abela (aka Lorax) is a fanboy, but still does great reviews
5. Zorg is a tool
6. SMD site has more legal jargon than my business law class
7. This thread isn't close to finished because we are all OCD about more than just pack weight

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 17:40:25 MDT Print View

"So, what have we learned?"

That the site that was once the most civil of any I'd been on is now becoming like the rest. :(

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 17:47:26 MDT Print View

Randy, as a whole,I think BPL still is a unique entity, but it is not immune to an errant thread.

That being said, I think everyone here owes everyone else a drink. Except me. Everyone owes me two drinks because I came up with the idea.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 17:55:43 MDT Print View

Sounds good Travis. Where do I send them?

OB talls

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 18:00:55 MDT Print View

Oh Randy, I promise you that BPL is still EXTREMELY civil compared to most other forums out there. We don't even have moderators here and 99.9999% of the threads here never even get close to this one. This thread looks like rainbows and lollipops compared to the majority of threads on the internet.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 05/31/2013 18:05:07 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 18:02:07 MDT Print View

sense

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 18:02:49 MDT Print View

"Oh Randy, I promise you that BPL is still EXTREMELY civil compared to most other forums out there."

No doubt Ryan, but it's sliding.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 18:03:18 MDT Print View

Randy! Brilliant! I literally am drinking a Dales stovepipe!Vh

Eric Lundquist
(cobberman) - F - M

Locale: Northern Colorado
Re: Re: Trashing on 05/31/2013 18:05:28 MDT Print View

"I have been wondering what in the hell it was going to take to get Ken to change back to his usual usersname and avatar!! "

So true!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 18:07:02 MDT Print View

Don't tell me you are drinking alone again?

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 18:09:33 MDT Print View

Guilty as charged.


Though, I need *something* to help me deal with the immense gravity of the BPL forums.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Fan Boys on 05/31/2013 18:15:46 MDT Print View

We all are fan boys. Each of us has our personal favorite manufacturers and piece of gear. That said......

Just because I had a good experience with a given item or vendor does not mean that anyone else will.

Just because you had a bad experience with a given item or vendor does not mean that anyone else will.


Just something to remember.


mkl

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Wisdom on 05/31/2013 18:28:02 MDT Print View

Your wisdom has made this whole forum completely useless.

Thanks a lot.

Edited by fitztravels on 05/31/2013 18:28:48 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
zorg on 05/31/2013 19:02:35 MDT Print View

Yes, it does seem that Zorg has recently discovered his ability to comment on the internet. You'll note with a Google search or two his need to chime in about Obama's racism, Trayvon Martin, how the Gubment is coming for our every single one of our guns, and whatever else standard nutjobbery is out there. So his trolling here is not a surprise... guess we just happen to be the next internet forum he stumbled onto while looking for someone to hear his unique voice.

--B.R.--

Edited by DaveT on 05/31/2013 19:03:26 MDT.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: So, what have we learned? on 05/31/2013 19:16:47 MDT Print View

"Randy! Brilliant! I literally am drinking a Dales stovepipe!"

Well, it's not like I had to be psychic. Everybody knows you're an Oskar Blues fan boy.

I opened a 12 oz Dale's after coming in from mowing but before sitting down to look at this. So you're not drinking alone, we're drinking together. Just thousands of miles apart.

Edited by rlnunix on 05/31/2013 19:18:40 MDT.

Charles G.
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
"Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 05/31/2013 19:20:08 MDT Print View

Three hundred posts on a thread about one unhappy customer brings new meaning to the expression " tempest in a teapot". You all must not have much of a life if you can spend this much time on semi-informed blither.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: "Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 05/31/2013 19:21:57 MDT Print View

What's your excuse? You are on here.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 19:23:35 MDT Print View

"Three hundred posts on a thread about one unhappy customer brings new meaning to the expression " tempest in a teapot". You all must not have much of a life if you can spend this much time on semi-informed blither."

Guilty as charged. But at least I didn't count the posts! :)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 19:38:50 MDT Print View

>Guilty as charged. But at least I didn't count the posts! :)

I stopped counting after 6....beers that is

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 19:45:33 MDT Print View

Darn, I am only starting my fourth beer.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 19:51:01 MDT Print View

Hi Stephen!

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 20:05:35 MDT Print View

John Abela, you probably can never understand what the core issue was, but you can certainly have your own viewpoint of the things.

"...I'm going to disagree with the general consensus. And will probably be accused of attacking Yang for doing so but that is not my intent. I've never done business with SMD or know anyone there so I'm not biased in favor of them..."

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 05/31/2013 20:07:56 MDT Print View

Hey Travis,

I really miss Winter :-(

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 20:20:56 MDT Print View

"John Abela, you probably can never understand what the core issue was, but you can certainly have your own viewpoint of the things.

"...I'm going to disagree with the general consensus. And will probably be accused of attacking Yang for doing so but that is not my intent. I've never done business with SMD or know anyone there so I'm not biased in favor of them..."

Yang, I said that and John quoted and agreed with it so don't blame John. I covered how I interpreted that email exchange and I also answered your question to me on what I think was promised you. I'm not sure why you don't think I can "never understand" the issue (and that seems a bit insulting) but you can try to explain it to me. It seems like it's been hashed out pretty well and I do disagree with your take on it but I did so respectfully.

Edited by rlnunix on 05/31/2013 20:22:26 MDT.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 20:35:30 MDT Print View

rlnunix: "John Abela, you probably can never understand what the core issue was, but you can certainly have your own viewpoint of the things.

"...I'm going to disagree with the general consensus. And will probably be accused of attacking Yang for doing so but that is not my intent. I've never done business with SMD or know anyone there so I'm not biased in favor of them..."

Yang, I said that and John quoted and agreed with it so don't blame John. I covered how I interpreted that email exchange and I also answered your question to me on what I think was promised you. I'm not sure why you don't think I can "never understand" the issue (and that seems a bit insulting) but you can try to explain it to me. It seems like it's been hashed out pretty well and I do disagree with your take on it but I did so respectfully.



+1





(giggle)

Edited by JohnAbela on 05/31/2013 20:36:32 MDT.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 20:42:55 MDT Print View

John Abela, I misunderstood you were quoting the post. I am sorry about that.

Randy, I am sorry that I certainly do not want to make you feel I am insulting you or anyone.

The core issue was Six Moon Designs (SMD) sent a defective item. When the customer decided to cancel the order because of the defective item, it forced the customer to pay for the shipping.

In my original post (please do go through them), I listed several facts. Those were probably not the core issues, but they were enough to make the customer lose the faith in their product and service.


"Yang, I said that and John quoted and agreed with it so don't blame John. I covered how I interpreted that email exchange and I also answered your question to me on what I think was promised you. I'm not sure why you don't think I can "never understand" the issue (and that seems a bit insulting) but you can try to explain it to me. It seems like it's been hashed out pretty well and I do disagree with your take on it but I did so respectfully."

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 05/31/2013 20:58:17 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/08/2013 18:55:18 MDT.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Quick someone pass trav anutha on 05/31/2013 21:07:51 MDT Print View

I've moved on to Mint Juleps. Despite the name, it's a pretty manly drink.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Quick someone pass trav anutha on 05/31/2013 21:10:13 MDT Print View

Travis,

Are they as good as the Whiskey Hot Chocolate on the Pictured Rocks trip?

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Quick someone pass trav anutha on 05/31/2013 22:00:40 MDT Print View

Close, Stephen, close. As the whiskey hot chocolate brought warmth between friends, the crisp, cool refreshing mint julep brings a blanket of easiness and coolness over this shithole of a thread.

Or maybe that's just me catching more of a buzz. Either way, it's a win-win situation for me.






Re: winter... Winter always seems to be a cold, wet, drudgery of an affair at the time. But something is always whispering in my ear, "you miss me, don't you. You know you miss me."

Loren B
(ljamesb)

Locale: London UK, Greenville USA
is this the last post? on 05/31/2013 22:07:40 MDT Print View

Looks like I'm a bit late to the party. Who would like a swig of stove fuel?

the ultimate in multi-use

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: is this the last post? on 05/31/2013 22:09:05 MDT Print View

No. I use that for my alky stove. And I tried it once. Once.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 22:10:08 MDT Print View

"The core issue was Six Moon Designs (SMD) sent a defective item. When the customer decided to cancel the order because of the defective item, it forced the customer to pay for the shipping."

Yang, I understand you had issues with the product you received and I agree that the NetTent looked defective. But this part makes it sound like you weren't cancelling your order because of quality but because you now had time to wait and were willing to do so so you could get the cuben shelter you really wanted.

>> None of them have been used. So we are fine. I am thinking to return
>> them all and buy them later when your cuben version is in stock.

That's one of the issues I addressed in my response. If you were so put off on this company, why would you then say you'd wait to buy a different product from them?

And this is the key sentence of the whole issue. This is where you said you were thinking of returning both items but SMD did not agree or authorize this. You might have interpreted it that way but it isn't stated explicitly. And that seems to be your whole argument. That you were promised your shipping refunded if you sent everything back AND cancelled your order. It's clear, to me anyway, that he was referring to the 1 lb NetTent and not both items. Again, to me, even if I had thought he said I could return everything, that would have been a red flag in my mind that we weren't on the same page.

I'm not trying to say that this is your fault and you should be vilified but I also don't think that SMD should be vilified either based on this interaction. The communication was just not clear.

Edited by rlnunix on 05/31/2013 22:20:57 MDT.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Re: Re: Re: Quick someone pass trav anutha on 05/31/2013 22:11:23 MDT Print View

I had to laugh at that Trav :-) a shithole indeed.

For some reason I have alway much preferd winter, don't get me wrong I like the sun as much as anyone but hate crowds and getting eaten alive by beasties.

At least in Ireland we have no poisonous feckers (besides the two legged kind)

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 22:23:52 MDT Print View

Randy, I think if you would have seen Ron's posts prior to him deleting them, I think you may have a different perspective on the matter. Maybe not.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 22:28:57 MDT Print View

That's possible. I'm just going by the original post Yang made with the email thread about the return. What did I miss?

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 22:31:18 MDT Print View

"But this part makes it sound like you weren't cancelling your order because of quality"

Not becasue of quality? If the quality was good, why would I want to cancel it? I could have already used in my trip. You are talking about your imagination while I am talking about the facts.


"but because you now had time to wait and were willing to do so so you could get the cuben shelter you really wanted."

Can you tell me what made me have time to wait?

Randy, I think the question like yours or something similar had already been repeated/answered by many other members. I do not think it can go any further.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
This is the last post on 05/31/2013 22:47:58 MDT Print View

Long Live Chaff!!!







Aww man, you guys messed it up.

Edited by WoodenWizard on 05/31/2013 22:56:52 MDT.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
WTF???? on 05/31/2013 22:53:05 MDT Print View

"But this part makes it sound like you weren't cancelling your order because of quality"

Not becasue of quality? If the quality was good, why would I want to cancel it? I could have already used in my trip. You are talking about your imagination while I am talking about the facts."

If the quality was bad why would you want a cuben version from the same company???

OK, the gloves are off now. :) Trust me, my imagination has a lot better things to do then think about Yang and SMD. (If it doesn't, I'm outsourcing my imagination or putting a 10" stake through my brain.)

No, not because of quality. If the quality was bad, why would you want a cuben version instead?????? That is exactly what you said in the email thread. Or we're you making that up to get your money back? It's one or the other. So which is it? Would you have bought a cuben version in spite of your apparent misgivings about SMD? Or was that total BS?

Your words in the email thread and what you have posted here are contradicatory. Make up your mind on what the issue is.

"but because you now had time to wait and were willing to do so so you could get the cuben shelter you really wanted."

Can you tell me what made me have time to wait?"

I agree that you had a valid issue with the NetTent. If you wanted to return the gear and wait for a cuben version, contact the manufacturer and work that out. But you didn't do that. If you had said: "Hey, I think the quality of this is not something I am satisfied with and I'd like to return it." I'd be on your side. But, "I'd rather cancel my order and wait for a cuben version"? Sorry. You said: "I'd like my money back and I'llbuy cuben later'. Correct? It's in the email thread you posted so saying anything else here won't fly.

"Randy, I think the question like yours or something similar had already been repeated/answered by many other members. I do not think it can go any further."

You accuse me of not being able to ever understand the issue and of me talking about my imagination. And yet you are portayed as poor Yang who is being picked on. I have to say that is well played. I tried to be respectful in my responses but, really, come on.

Edited by rlnunix on 05/31/2013 22:55:53 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 22:54:40 MDT Print View

Who called the Lorax a fan boy?

http://hikelighter.com/2012/04/03/six-moon-designs-skyscape-x/

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: WTF???? on 05/31/2013 22:59:00 MDT Print View

Randy, I do respect you but your last post made me remember Scree's post. That was why I lost my tamper a bit. So I appologize for that.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Disagree on 05/31/2013 23:01:35 MDT Print View

BTW, I'm apologizing in advance for my previous post. Not to Yang, who doesn't deserve it, but for the BPL community for not being able to let 2 insults pass without a negative response.

Rob Carrier
(ellaemily)

Locale: Michigan
SMD on 06/01/2013 00:22:30 MDT Print View

Being a business owner for me the big issue is the way Ron handled this issue especially in a forum filled with customers. Ron you should have immediately appologized and sent the OP $20.00 for shipping. By not doing so even though it was the right thing to do you lost far far more than $20.00 i promise you there are people who have viewed this post that will skip over your company when looking at gear and that is way more damaging than shipping fees. Hopefully for your sake you take this as a learning experience and respond a little quicker to issues publicly discussed on forums full of your customer. All for a nominal 20.00? Wow

Richard Scruggs
(JRScruggs) - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Probably not the last post, but . . . on 06/01/2013 00:37:07 MDT Print View

. . . it's all been interesting.

One possible resolution -- a coin flip, and let Lady Chance decide.

But everyone ought to get to place bets first; winners split the pot.

PS - My experience with SMD has been excellent. Not to say the OP doesn't have a reasonable point, but it's too complicated for me to figure out without a lot of effort, if then. Seems fair, tho, that everyone can be given slack for at least one $20 mistake in their life (if mistake were made) w/o being judged too harshly.

And now, roll on to page 18.

Edited by JRScruggs on 06/01/2013 00:38:51 MDT.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: SMD on 06/01/2013 04:33:58 MDT Print View

To apologize due to public pressure would be equivalent to lying. I prefer the truth. The man apparently doesn't feel a need to apologize. He wisely bowed out of this pity fest.Me, I'm up early and bored. I've heard the cries over and over. I must be bored. Should of had some of that hot chocolate going around last night.I'd still be in bed.
Get over it, it's over.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: SMD on 06/01/2013 06:04:01 MDT Print View

Scree, do you know what apology is? Ofttimes it has nothing to do with the truth, but rather with allaying bad feelings and allowing other people to keep their dignity, whether or not something is untrue. The truth can be very destructive sometimes, for no gain for anyone, except perhaps for your amusement.

Truth? Who cares if you are bored.

Edited by butuki on 06/01/2013 06:04:36 MDT.

scree ride
(scree)
nobody cares on 06/01/2013 06:43:49 MDT Print View

An insincere apology would only be a tongue in cheek gimmick to save customer status.
Giving the protester 20 bucks to be quite would amount to a bribe.
Both sides believe that they are right. So be it. While concussions may be in order, or they may not be in order, an apology, unless it is mutual, isn't. This whole thing has been blown way out of proportion with one party wisely retracting his words, while the other has made a career out of it.
I guess the whole lesson here is that life sucks so it's up to us to make it enjoyable. You don't sweat the small stuff. We all have our PP's. We all have our faults. That's what makes it fun.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
SMD on 06/01/2013 06:51:53 MDT Print View

I would be happy to pay the $20.00 to both the OP and Ron to see this thread end.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: SMD on 06/01/2013 07:41:24 MDT Print View

I would be happy to pay the $20.00 to both the OP and Ron to see this thread end.

+1, Thom.

I know I just contributed to furthering the inanity of all this by writing something, and I had promised myself to stay away after the halfway point, but I'm so bothered by the sheer pettiness and ugliness of spirit that has been displayed, that I felt I had to say something. This is one of the ugliest threads I've seen on BPL.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: SMD on 06/01/2013 08:07:57 MDT Print View

I think that takes it up to $60, another 20 and I'll apologize. Forty and I'll switch sides.

NW Hiker
(king2005ify) - M
I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 08:14:05 MDT Print View

I am not a fanboi of SMD, but like many others here I support and love the cottage industry.

Yang was given the option to return for refund (Net only), he chose to cancel order instead, and on top of that he sent back everything not just the net. Canceling the order gave up his right to a refund for shipping...pretty easy to understand, and clearly explained by Ron.

How is SMD in the wrong again?

Also, anyone that uses the super light no-see-um netting knows that the netting gets "scrunched up" and has many of these little areas that look like holes. They are not holes, you just kind of scratch them with your fingernail and they straighten right out. This is a standard trait of this netting, that's it.

The loose threads look bad, but are nothing more than excess thread that simply needed to be snipped. I see this all the time, especially on Kifaru's VERY expensive tents and while it is annoying maybe I don't care enough to bitch. I simply take a couple of minutes and snip 'em off and thoroughly enjoy the product. I kind of like it in some ways, it tells me it wasn't mass produced by a machine in China.

Either way, SMD did nothing wrong, they were going to refund him for his return, but once he canceled the order he then agreed to not be reimbursed for shipping, cut and dry.

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
There are holes in the mesh on 06/01/2013 08:52:07 MDT Print View

Regardless of how inconvenient and undermining the fact may be, there are at least 4 holes in the mesh in that photo. Any position which ignores that fact is based on something other than reality. SMD even accepted the mesh was defective.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but not our own set of facts.

Derrick

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 09:13:00 MDT Print View

HW Hiker,

To me, the Brandon's email confirmed pretty clear that it was not Net only. But you could think of other way becasue that was your perception.

A few people offered $20 to me. Again, I appreciate that. One thing you probably did not notice was I had not posted for quite a long time. My membership in this forum has already expired. I had to pay to renew the membership in order to make this single post. If you still think I have been fighting for $20. At least, money wise, I won't gain anything.

So why I made this post? I have mentioned in my first a few posts. All what I wanted to do was to share my personal shopping experience, which was not satisfied by myself and hope you have better experience than me. If you (or anybody) think I made a mistake, use your judgement to decide what mistake I made and avoid that in future. Consider this is my best wish.

I and (I believe) most of people constantly browse this forum to make gear decisions. That was why I like this forum. I completely have no intent to use it to BS or take advatage to any sellers here. I actually had a good will at the beginning to offer to buy a more expensive product from the seller. If nothing went wrong, this was supposed to be my third tent.

Anyway hope you enjoy the weekend.

scree ride
(scree)
Some logic...finally. on 06/01/2013 09:13:34 MDT Print View

"Also, anyone that uses the super light no-see-um netting knows that the netting gets "scrunched up" and has many of these little areas that look like holes. They are not holes, you just kind of scratch them with your fingernail and they straighten right out. This is a standard trait of this netting, that's it."

Now that makes a lot more sense then the story as it was presented. My eyes aren't that great, but I thought the "holes" were light reflections. There was no logical reasoning behind an industry that relies almost solely on it's reputation sending out what was represented as a grossly inferior product. So far they have not admitted to doing so. All we have for evidence are some photographs that really show nothing.
We are dealing with lightweight products made in small factories. We are also dealing with individuals, not conglomerates, not the man, but people.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Send to chaff on 06/01/2013 09:25:36 MDT Print View

^^^^^^

With that comment above,This post has officially become chaff material.

Reflections. HA

Edited by fitztravels on 06/01/2013 09:26:41 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Some logic...finally. on 06/01/2013 09:29:15 MDT Print View

Scree, you may want to borrow these


.F

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Trashing on 06/01/2013 09:56:16 MDT Print View

You guys don't get credit for that.


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=77869&skip_to_post=664116#664116

Don't get a swelled head.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Send to chaff on 06/01/2013 10:04:38 MDT Print View

Oh sure, now you guys want an active Chaff forum.

So fickle.

Oh yeah, There are a few people here after reading this thread that I would love to hike with.

Edited by kthompson on 06/01/2013 10:07:36 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Chaff on 06/01/2013 10:30:02 MDT Print View

So if theres a complaint that many here consider legitimate about a favorite cottage manufacturer ... BPLer want it "sent to chaff" ...

After insulting the complainer of course and denying any issues

Thats how it works ;)

Harald Hope
(hhope)

Locale: East Bay
just a point of fact on 06/01/2013 12:38:58 MDT Print View

Just wanted to note something, apparently we have some keyboard lawyers here who are fond of making up laws re contracts etc. It's been stated repeatedly that if a product arrives defective, the company is bound by some law to do x or y, x or y being invisible to me in any other non cottage industry online dealings I've ever had, but apparently clear to those posters who talk about contracts and law and so on.

Here's how it works outside this thread in my experience, which is sadly fairly extensive because one of the hats I've worn for years is computer repair/system administration, which always involves ordering parts online, which in turn always involves RMAs, since parts always fail at a certain percentage (ie, order 10 hard drives, and one, if you are lucky, will be rma'ed immediately), ie, returns of failed or defective merchandise. I have never seen any company I've dealt with offer to pay my shipping for a defective item, although they generally always pay their resending of course, so whoever keeps repeating that needs to get a reality check. If the company explicitly says they will, great, but I've never seen that myself in over 10 years of online ordering. So give it a rest, it's fine to make up stuff so you can sound like you have some idea of whatever, but try to be aware that is all that is going on.

I don't have any hat in this game at all, and I really like cottage industry, at least I like cottage industry that makes their stuff locally with people directly under their control. Companies that chose to outsource their production, or parts of it, to cut costs and boost profits, not so much, I can't tell any difference between them and any other company that outsources production, like eureka, rei, northface, or whatever. Hats off again to those who don't, tarptent, for the time being, western mountaineering, enlightenment, zpacks, mld I assume.

If you don't believe me re reality, check out the largest retailers online, newegg.com for example. Try ordering from amazon and then see about getting free shipping for returns. Some places do it, but most do not. I ordered some shoes from a newbalance place, they did not fit, I returned them, shipping cost me almost as much as the shoes had. I didn't whine or complain because I understand how this business works more or less.

Stepping back from such pretend contracts and keyboard lawyers, I would note that Ron totally and utterly blew it in any business sense, advertising isn't cheap and goodwill is very hard to develop in these communities, and there is absolutely no way his method should serve as anything other than a clear case of how not to handle customer disputes for any other cottage industry people out there, I'd read this thread very carefully as a classic example of just how quickly good will can turn to poisoned will in an online virtual community, any one, I've seen that happen more times in more contexts than I can remember over the years, and once you lose that good will, you really never get it back. So on a business level, trying to demonstrate being 'right' was a totally idiotic strategy for ron to take, just absolutely stupid, one of the stupidest things I've seen any cottage industry guy do. All he had to do was swallow hard, immediately apologize, you can lie in an email, you don't have to be honest, just say, wow, I am so very sorry for this error/ mixup, let me instantly refund that shipping cost to you, and maybe send a small stuff sack or something. For those 30 dollars, this thread would never have happened, no good will would have been lost, and nothing would have happened to smd beyond losing 20 bucks.

This is particularly important because the customer posted pictures of the shoddy stitching, bunched up seam, and defective screen, which is really a very very bad thing to have people see, it's absolutely certain that ron has lost a lot of business and money from this very bad handling of the situation. I can understand getting annoyed at customers who appear to be trying to sort of play it both ways, but if you were wrong to start with, ie, delivered defective merchandise, then you should just eat it no matter how annoying it is. It would be different if the OP had only tried to return the stuff because he changed his mind, but that's not the case, there were defects.

Treat this, all current and future cottage people, as a great example of how not to run your business if you want to achieve long term success.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: just a point of fact on 06/01/2013 12:41:47 MDT Print View

I've had both Campsaver and Moontrail refund my shipping for errors on their part. Of course, they have my business for life.

Ryan Nakahara
(kife42) - F

Locale: Hawaii
Re: Re: re: SMD on 06/01/2013 12:46:37 MDT Print View

The email says to include a note explaining the problem, along with RMA code 2013-0502A. Are you saying you can't remember if you did this or not?

In the email, SMD is referring to exchanging the NetTent only. That's why it says "shelter" and not "shelters" plural. They never agree to exchanging the tarp.

When SMD says the tarp is "fine", they are not saying it is fine to return it unused. They are saying it looks to be in good condition and does not need to be replaced.

Edited by kife42 on 06/01/2013 13:12:10 MDT.

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: Some logic...finally. on 06/01/2013 12:50:58 MDT Print View

Bowtie come with them?

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: re: SMD on 06/01/2013 12:51:48 MDT Print View

I vote for the above as the single funniest post on this thread. "When Brandon wrote in his email that shipping would be refunded, what he really meant was he liked ships and wishes he was sailing."

Harald Hope
(hhope)

Locale: East Bay
yes, above and beyond on 06/01/2013 13:07:32 MDT Print View

Davey Jones, exactly, it's good business to make customers happy, that's precisely my point, it's very very bad business to do what smd did, although they did have one and only one chance to get some good PR in, which he blew, totally, and that was to just make a first posting, something along these lines: this slipped under our radar, and we did have some inner company miscommunications, I apologize, the money has been refunded. The point in your case is that these companies went above and beyond what is normal or required, and thus earned, surprise surprise, a satisfied repeat customer. Smart. SMD, not smart. Totally does not matter if they are right or wrong, which is something that a lot of people in this thread seem confused about, this is business, and there's good and bad business methods. Zpacks picks the good one consistently, and is considered one of the best because of that.

The thread would have ended right there, with such a statement from smd here, and everyone would say, oh, smd is such a good company, great, he follows the discussion, sees his error, and fixes it, in public. You can lie totally when you say this as owner of the company, it's virtual, not face to face, and it's just part of doing business, even if you hate the client or whatever, gritting your teeth and swallowing hard is just part of the cost of doing business sometimes.

Sometimes it's totally irrelevant who is right or wrong, you just eat it, that's how it goes. I have to eat stuff all the time as a freelancer, and massively larger amounts than $20. All of the rest of this thread would not have happened, it would have vanished, no ill will generated, no endless discussions and made up laws, no picking apart to see who is guilty or innocent, and why and how, just a satisfied transaction.

That should have happened before this even got the posting stage, it's just not worth being right sometimes, in business, you have to snip off the ego at times and just agree, bad press and bad publicity is very damaging, far more damaging than an annoyed ego.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 13:40:06 MDT Print View

whimpering

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 13:41:56 MDT Print View

Does Yang Lu now regret renewing his BPL subscription? Could have posted to SMD's Facebook page. Free. I am amused and amazed that this thread has gone 18 pages.

Scree is excellant at stirring the pot. Hope he's having as much fun as I am reading his posts.

Eric Chan should just write one master post that he can reuse over and over as they are always pretty much the same.

Davey Jones should keep his nose out if this as this is American situation and we don't need any foreigners.

You too Miguel. Nothing to be gained here. Don't bother.

Actually this all should be handled between Ron and Yang. Looks like it has been.

I was missing Chaff. But here it is.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: I'm with SMD on 06/01/2013 14:07:17 MDT Print View

I think Miguel is American.

Zorg, that is pretty racist.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/01/2013 14:11:25 MDT Print View

Glad to hear SMD worked it out with Yang.

They have been around a while, probably just one big weeks long miscommunication with an 18 page and growing Internet commentary.


Edit: Not Glad to read Yangs post below. My bad. I thought something changed.

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 06/01/2013 14:18:18 MDT.

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/01/2013 14:17:06 MDT Print View

Just to confirm I did not hear anything from SMD.

"Glad to hear SMD worked it out with Yang."

Tan Ngo
(nmtan) - MLife
RE:SMD on 06/01/2013 14:22:16 MDT Print View

First I want to say hello to everyone...been a long time reader.

I've been following this thread as I am interested in seeing the outcome. Before reading this thread I was considering getting the Skyscape x tent from SMD as soon as it become available again but now I am having second thought. I wouldn't want to deal with the potential headache in dealing with SMD base on what I am getting from this thread.


For those SMD fanboys(you know who you are :)), you are not doing the company any favor by blindly supporting it. You would only encourage substandard QC and customer service and in the long run will destroy the company. I can understand the need to support the cottage industry but not at the expense of quality products and customer service.

Kevin Schneringer
(Slammer) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma Flat Lands
Since it is Chaff... on 06/01/2013 14:30:02 MDT Print View

Well I just got a piece of gear in from an... uh anonymous cottage gear shop.
I took it out pitched it in the yard inspected every tiny stitch.
Well it is perfect no issues.

Maybe we could start a Chaff Thread bragging on the fabulous gear we get form these specialized gear makers.Anyone can go negative but how many of us thank these guys for answering endless emails as we scrutinize every detail. Or ask for random add-ons and custom changes.

Like Zpacks- Joe and Matt answer questions all hours. Turn custom work around quickly and smile while doing it.

Or BearPaw Wilderness- John goes out of his way to get it right and the customer happy.

Or Six Moon Designs- Ron typically does great work

Or MLD, or HMG or, or or Ya I think overall they all do a great Job.

So who can go positive and start an 19 page+ thread? you?

Derrick White
(miku) - MLife

Locale: Newfoundland & Labrador, Canada
Re Harald on 06/01/2013 14:34:48 MDT Print View

Harald,

You are right, commercial practices regularly deviate from the law, either by explicit agreement or one party imposing its will on the other. Neither of these changes the law when the contract is otherwise silent, especially between a vendor and a lone one time buyer, in the cottage industry context or otherwise

Unlike you, I have never accepted any cost arising from a vendor's failure to supply what they promised to me, perhaps because I know I don't have to. As many have pointed out here, a simple email or phone call tends to remedy these type of things.

But sometimes they are not remedied and for those that ultimately find their way into a court room, usually where the cost of the return is very significant, as a bare skimming of case law will confirm, the shipping costs are those of the breaching party.

Big people (usually companies) short shrift little people (usually buyers) everyday. That doesn't make it legal or right. It is this fact that is the impetus behind consumer protection legislation, where, because vendors are normally more powerful and resourceful than the consumer, the consumer get even more rights than they would in the common law.

In Yang's case, the common law is a sufficient remedy for him. Consumer protection legislation may give him even more, depending on the states involved.

Harald, stripped of the insults and innuendo, your point is a good one. But its anecdotal, and fortunately 500 hundred years of common law is based on a bigger universe that the limits of your commercial life experience.

Derrick

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re Harald on 06/01/2013 14:45:57 MDT Print View

I'm always amazed at how eloquently some of you can lob insults or counter someone's point/insults. That must be one of the other "dark arts" that are learned when going UL. You don't get this kind of good material at other sites.


Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 06/01/2013 14:46:30 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
The solution on 06/01/2013 15:04:20 MDT Print View

Gear swap.

List less than perfect gear for high prices, let the fanboys collect them as rare prototypes !

For sale, shelter, missing one tie out so it's lighter than the production version.

For Sale, bug net, improved ventilation while missing material reduces weight.

For Sale, tarp, loose crooked stitching allows customization not normally available.

See ?
--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 06/01/2013 15:07:04 MDT.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: The solution on 06/01/2013 15:09:37 MDT Print View


For sale, shelter, missing one tie out so it's lighter than the production version.

For Sale, bug net, improved ventilation while missing material reduces weight.

For Sale, tarp, loose crooked stitching allows customization not normally available.


wow, sounds like it would be lighter weight than what it would be normally... I'll take it!!!

D S
(smoke) - F
I don't dare- on 06/01/2013 17:59:56 MDT Print View

I've never dealt with SMD, but this thread puts several bad tastes in my mouth -

I don't like it that SMD evidently has QC issues. I guess I've worked in QC too long to accept lame excuses like "stuff happens". I wish I had that option in my job.

I don't like the way SMD responded to the issue. Nuff said!

I guess if I want something SMD, I'll pick it up used and let somebody else work the bugs out.

Main issue - After seeing the personal attacks here, I don't dare air any issues with Gear Swap or any Vendor on this site. You guys are really screwing-up getting useful info on a bad experience, which I think others should be warned of.

scree ride
(scree)
No quality problems on 06/01/2013 18:31:48 MDT Print View

Only somebody who joined the forum merely to force an issue with a vender. Who is to say the tent was damaged at SMD's end?
Independent venders should remain independent and not be the subject of what really amounts to a shake down. There is way too much attitude going on here to account for losing 20 bucks. Somebody didn't get their way and mom's not there to take care of it...
If you don't buy SMD, you're probably going to pay more for a product of the same or less quality. Stand you're ground though brother, somebody said something once and you're going to limit yourself because of it.
"Fanboy", whatever...As Zorg said, shop at Walmart. They don't really have much, but they have a wonderful return policy, but then you'd probably have to wait in line.

Edited by scree on 06/01/2013 18:35:08 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
SMD on 06/01/2013 18:47:37 MDT Print View

It's a rarity, but I'm with Eric on this one. Have a legitimate issue with a cottage manufacturer, attempt to resolve it offline, get no relief, bring it online, and then watch (some/much) of the UL community get nasty circling the wagons around the cottage manufacturer.

Don't we want to know if tents get sent out with bad sewing, missing guylines, damaged mesh, etc.? Or would we rather attack a buyer who tries every avenue to have his issues concerned?

Parsing return policy language vs. implied whatever vs. legal whatnot misses the heart of the issue completely. Poor workmanship was provided for (a lot of) money, a return with shipping paid was offered in writing, and not followed through on. How quickly a bunch of people (often with little history at BPL) go on personal attack on the buyer is unsettling, and doesn't reflect well on BPL. But I guess if you've only been around here for two months, maybe it's not really a community to you, anyway. Just a place to rant at people on the internet.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: No quality problems on 06/01/2013 19:28:45 MDT Print View

Only somebody who joined the forum merely to force an issue with a vender.

another fabrication

mister yang lu joined in 2011, and while not a prolific poster ... has asked the normal questions about gear

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/profile?ot=80&u=yanglu#posts

of course im sure some people will say he joined in 2011 and planned to "discredit" their favorite cottage company way in advance ;)

Raymond Estrella
(rayestrella) - MLife

Locale: Northern Minnesota
F members on 06/01/2013 20:04:41 MDT Print View

"Only somebody who joined the forum merely to force an issue with a vender."

Right, you are such a long timer Scree...

I liked it better when we had to be a real member to post. (You know, that two week period that everybody hated;-)

Seriously I have not had a single rain-free day yet (on a day off) to seam seal my TT SS2 yet. Maybe I should blame Henry for the weather. But from what I see the tent is great. No torn netting or loose threads.

I return you to your previously scheduled trolls.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: I don't dare- on 06/01/2013 20:21:42 MDT Print View

dump

Ah all better now - I just love memes!

Kind of a drag, but read the OP first - then post.

Yang screwed up. I know lots of people struggle with that, but hey - Obama got reelected so we know people aren't the brightest sometimes.

Yang screwed up and he doesn't want to admit it. He's done a heck of a good job running a pity thread.

Now after nearly 400 posts it is only natural for a few latecomers to join in castigating the vendor, but seriously - think. Yang screwed up.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/01/2013 20:30:20 MDT Print View

If you are implying that Yang screwed up by picking SMD over a reliable company that doesn't have a fourty paragraph return policy design to protect themselves from shoddy quality control && inadequate customer service, then I strongly disagree.

As this thread shows he had no way to know going into the purchase what type of company he was dealing with, because of the BPL culture that loves their favorite companies.

The official Ron/SMD legalese response was eye opening, but ultimately, just like the those of his company, he took back his words.

Perhaps, in light of their policies, SMD gear is best acquired through a reliable third party retailer that has a desire to stay in business.

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 06/01/2013 20:42:59 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: I don't dare- on 06/01/2013 20:34:53 MDT Print View

I still like you, Zorg

Stupid

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
oregon on 06/01/2013 20:42:35 MDT Print View

Zorg from Oregon.

Six Moon Designs from Oregon.

Hmmmmmm.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
.... poof! on 06/01/2013 20:47:25 MDT Print View

"The official Ron/SMD legalese response was eye opening, but ultimately, just like the those of his company, he took back his words."


+1

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I don't dare- on 06/01/2013 20:51:10 MDT Print View

Maybe we can talk Ron into a cage match at the next GGG. Always looking for entertainment.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
SMD Thread on 06/01/2013 21:02:56 MDT Print View

stop

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
another. on 06/01/2013 21:08:55 MDT Print View

Yet another Oregon SMD fanboi, also with internet clipart/memery.

Hmmmm.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Read Zorgs First Post on 06/01/2013 21:16:17 MDT Print View

"Yang screwed up. I know lots of people struggle with that, but hey - Obama got reelected so we know people aren't the brightest sometimes.

Yang screwed up and he doesn't want to admit it. He's done a heck of a good job running a pity thread."

So Zorg posted the above on page 19. What is really funny is that if you read Zorgs post on page one you see him state that he thinks that Yang should have got his shipping refunded. Nice Trolling by Zorg. His first post in the thread "But I still don't understand why SMD didn't refund the shipping - sounds like you just need another email/phone call." Seems a little inconsistent.


One other thing I would like to know from Yang is that after you got the email from Ron Moak stating that he wouldn't refund the shipping what did you send him back? It seems odd that the email chain would end with him just refusing to pay you back for shipping. It might be posted somewhere in here but I didn't see it.

I still believe that Ron should have offered you a credit toward a future purchase but I am interested in what you sent him back after he declined to refund the shipping.

Edited by GregF on 06/01/2013 21:18:47 MDT.

Ernie Fuentes
(askernie) - F
THE LAW OF 150 on 06/02/2013 08:02:34 MDT Print View

Ladies and Gents...and RON,

It was written many years ago by a great salesman that we ALL know at least 150 people that are important enough to invite to our wedding and to our funeral.

This theory has been the secret to many a businesses growing and succeeding.

Magnify this theory X3 by the power of the internet and you have a great success for a business or a great failure.

This whole post has been an exercise in that theory.

As a business person myself, I have realized in my 55 years that the customer may not ALWAYS be right but you have to treat them as such in order to stay in business.

RON...you know what to do.


Ernie the Eyeball

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: THE LAW OF 150 on 06/02/2013 08:08:38 MDT Print View

"we ALL know at least 150 people that are important enough to invite to our wedding and to our funeral."


False!


Only 2 guests at my wedding. Needed two witnesses.

As for the rest. Maybe 12 total.

Ron has done the right thing. He's decided not to discuss it here.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
False! on 06/02/2013 08:59:31 MDT Print View

He did... Then erased it.

Edited by fitztravels on 06/02/2013 09:00:41 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: False! on 06/02/2013 09:02:00 MDT Print View

I didn't say he never discussed it here. He's chosen not to.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Have you lost your mind on 06/02/2013 09:10:39 MDT Print View

Just because he erased HIS DISCUSSION of the topic, doesnt undo his decision to discuss it.

I cant believe i am actually explaining this to an adult.

21 yet?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Have you lost your mind on 06/02/2013 09:15:53 MDT Print View

Gotcha!

That was easy.

Just trolling the water this morning as I cannot believe this thread is still going.

I'd like to know the condition of the product returned to SMD, from SMD though. Were those really holes. I never thought the thread ends were any kind of issue at all. See that on all kinds of things from clothes to gear and every textile thing in between.

Ron's biggest mistake was responding on the forum in the first place. The manufacturers always get a crucifixion.

Edit: This entire thread is such a cluster that I refuse to take any part of it seriously. 20 pages over a minor, minor thing. Look how worked up some of you get. Funny these are some of the same people who told me to "calm down, it's only a website" last year. Look in the mirror people.


Laughing...

Edited by kthompson on 06/02/2013 09:21:43 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Have you lost your mind on 06/02/2013 10:20:16 MDT Print View

I was doing some research on the Tarptent SS2 and came across this thread,

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=61193&skip_to_post=532962#532962

Ironically, the thread was started by Yang who indicated that it appeared that Tarptent had a better warranty than Six Moon Designs.

Yang, were you fully aware of Six Moon Designs return policy prior to ordering from them???

Yang Lu
(yanglu)
Re: Re: Re: Have you lost your mind on 06/02/2013 10:56:46 MDT Print View

Hi Davey, thanks for the research. You were right I was totally lost my mind. The better policy I mentioned was the days that an unused items can be returned. I remember Tarptent was longer.

Charging for the shipping cost to cancel a defective items was not something I even thought about at that time. I do not remember either company mentioned in their policy.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/02/2013 16:37:56 MDT Print View

People really know 150 people they want at a wedding ?

Is Ron okay with BPL getting membership renewals because of this thread ?

Do people have issues cooking with wood because they don't want to get filthy ?

Will Yang be at the next GGG ?

Which SMD product is bright and cheerful in color without functional compromise ?

What would have happened if Yang wrote Ron with a pencil ideal for the JMT ?

Is email to blame for this ?

--G.B.--

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/02/2013 20:09:50 MDT Print View

Which socks should I use for the JMT?

Edited by Jenmitol on 06/02/2013 20:10:22 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD) on 06/02/2013 21:25:01 MDT Print View

"Which socks should I use for the JMT?"

OMG! How can you talk about socks when we haven't fully resolved the JMT pencil issue? Focus, please! I can't believe I have to explain this to an adult. ;-)

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
The only thing I agree with Scree (or was it Zorg...) on 06/03/2013 00:00:01 MDT Print View

The only thing I agree with Scree on (or was it Zorg? They sound exactly the same) is that it would be disingenuous of Ron to offer to refund the money now. Ron made his position clear. To do it now would probably only invite more ridicule. An apology, likewise, would seem insincere at this point. I see this thread primarily as fair warning for future SMD buyers. As a member who uses this forum often for gear research prior to buying, I find threads like these invaluable despite the inevitable lack of civility by a few. I, for one, appreciate the OP for posting this, and for putting up with the crap from a few people and yet still managing to stay civil. Good job, Yang.

scree ride
(scree)
Civil on 06/03/2013 02:58:27 MDT Print View

Again words from those who have never dealt with Ron or SMD. It's so easy to jump on the bandwagon and join in the condemnation of a decent person with a decent product when you have no clue other than an obscure vindictive posting. To suggest an alternative leaves one with charges of trolling or of not being civil. I guess I need to pick up the torch and join the crowd. I'd rather buck the trend while asking for some unbiased proof of the story. I personally find it hard to believe. I believe many others will as well. SMD has no worries.

Robert Meurant
(rmeurant) - MLife
socks for jennifer on 06/03/2013 05:55:18 MDT Print View

Clearly the sock issue is at the core of the service dilemma. Presuming the JMT runs approximately North-South, and presuming a direction of motion, different sock qualities will be appropriate for each foot, unless of course one has only one foot. This follows from the differential exposure to solar radiation experienced by both feet; architects well know that afternoon radiation is far worse than morning radiation, and the sock composition needs to take account of this.

A possible compromise is to differentiate both sides of each sock, but recall that during morning and afternoon periods (as opposed to midday) the foot closer to the sun will experience greater heat gain, and will tend to shade the other foot for at least part of the stride.

A related issue is the direction of the Earth's magnetic field, and the inclination of the direction of the trail to that magnetic axis. Piezo-electric effects may be expected in at least the 4th toe of the foot closer to the direction of the Moon during the first and third quarters, and these will affect the durability of the sock material, and may lead to blistering, especially during periods of high sun spot activity. However, this may also be turned to advantage by capturing the electricity produced, which may be used as a source to recharge devices, such as sock warmers.

I trust this may be of sole benefit to the discussion. If not, I would feel a heel.

Tanner M
(Tan68)
Re: socks for jennifer on 06/03/2013 08:39:01 MDT Print View

" ...A possible compromise is to differentiate both sides of each sock, ... "

I think this point is valid, but it gets a bit complicated not to mention it would require custom socks..

I say go with the typical hiker sock with extra padding in toe and heel. No custom sock needed.

If the trail runs N-S, the significant exposure will be heel and... fore-top/toe.

The sides of my feet aren't that thick; they are low profile like the roofs of houses in Florida and this reduces sun exposure as much as possible. Forget them. If you are hiking north in the summer, your toes bake and need more insulation. If you are hiking north in the winter, your toes will still appreciate the extra insulation.

Basically, if you hike up the earth, insulate the toes, Hiking down, then insulate heels. I suppose typical padded socks could be modded by attacking the unnecessary insulation with a lint brush. For hours.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Socks and pencils on 06/03/2013 09:54:51 MDT Print View

I would NEVER buy socks or pencils from SMD.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: The only thing I agree with Scree (or was it Zorg...) on 06/03/2013 10:13:04 MDT Print View

argue

Just like nobody wants to be a "low information voter" who is manipulated by their emotions and unable to make rational decisions, so folks should be careful in disqualifying a vendor based on one thread started by a disgruntled, clueless shopper.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 06/03/2013 10:23:18 MDT Print View

I don't find the OP to be clueless. The photos speak for themselves on SMD's QA. The OP was promised a refund for his shipping, in writing by SMD, and then it was denied. That's pretty cut and dry. Ron came here himself and further stepped on his geoduck, and so even those of us who have never made a purchase from SMD now have a pretty good idea of what Ron's customer service philosophy is and how it translates.

Because this thread was created, several other people have since stepped up and said they had quality and/or service issues with SMD. So it's not a single issue, and not just one person.

As previously stated, I haven't ruled out buying a product from SMD, but I do take these threads into account when I make a purchasing decision. As others have said, perhaps with SMD it would be best to either purchase used or use a third party seller with a vested interest in taking care of the customer.

Edited by EagleRiverDee on 06/03/2013 10:24:23 MDT.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: "Very unpleasant experience with Six Moon Design (SMD)" on 06/03/2013 10:45:24 MDT Print View

answer

You don't find the OP "clueless"? Really? Do you think somehow that the OP is an "expert"? Did you even read the OP? Have you purchased anything from SMD? Have you read their return policy?

By the way, I must've missed the legion of SMD customers complaining about SMD quality in this thread.

I agree that forum threads can be a big help in making purchasing decisions, but only if the thread is started on a rational basis. "rational" meaning that the poster is objectively pointing out the good versus bad of a particular product. This thread was simply a pity-party run by a disgruntled inexperienced buyer who never could admit that they made a series of basic mistakes. I learned nothing new from this thread - just another example of how gullible people can be sometimes.

BTW, I'm out of memes so I'm not participating in this thread anymore. So you can feel free to have the last word.

Edited by BurnNotice on 06/03/2013 10:49:49 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
SMD on 06/03/2013 10:50:04 MDT Print View

Regardless of the apologists and fanboys who continue to shout down someone raising relevant concerns about quality control and customer service, the facts speak for themselves...

Buyers of SMD beware.


--B.R.--

Edited by DaveT on 06/03/2013 10:51:58 MDT.

Mark Compton
(rasputen) - F

Locale: West of the Great Smoky Mtn's
My thoughts/ My experience on 06/03/2013 11:33:25 MDT Print View

I'll make this very brief. Bought a stuff sack from Ron several years ago, details below.

1. E-mail response very slow
2. Stuff sack arrived "without" a cordlock? Would a tent without a zipper be acceptable?

My take: The omission of the cordlock spoke volumes to me as the customer. This was a very small overlooked detail but the fallout/collateral damage was I could not recommend them to friends and family based upon my perceived poor quality control. I do business with small cottage industries but this one is the only one I have ever had issues with. I did not contact them regarding this omission but robbed a cordlock from an old stuff sack.

At the end of the day a business can only remain viable if they provide excellent service and quality of product. Reputation is paramount.

The world won't stop spinning and Ron will not go out of business because I didn't get my cordlock. I am not offended or angry. I post this transaction for all to illustrate the above points.

Although I did not read all the above posts this thread is helpful. The world is an imperfect place and threads like this will not go unnoticed by Ron or other cottage industries who may be reading this. It's simply a wake-up call to perfect their craft.

** Would I buy anything from Ron in the future- sure,he's listening...

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 06/08/2013 18:54:48 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/23/2013 12:19:52 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: bye y'all on 06/09/2013 00:01:00 MDT Print View

Viso Cheers!

adieu

scree ride
(scree)
cost on 06/09/2013 08:39:46 MDT Print View

Often with the cottage industries, products are subbed out to be built. You are not going to find perfection unless you want to pay McHale prices. You play the odds. A step may get missed. Something left off, a tie out, whatnot. Rips and tears are highly unusual and also highly suspect.
You return it and get new. Thats the game. It's spelled out in the warranty. Often the state supersedes with a greater warranty, not always. A better warranty raises the price. Few will pay that price, yet want the same outcome. It's just not going to happen.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
the BPL way ;) on 06/09/2013 10:01:50 MDT Print View

so basically yr saying that people who buy cottage should expect shiet service

and things like holes in bug nettings, bad stiching, missing cordlocks ... and not post about it here so its BPLs best kept secret

and if you do have problems and contact the manufacturer first ... you should expect no real resolution

and if you do post about yr experience on BPL ... you should expect BPLers to tell you what a whinner and idiot you are

and then expect said BPLers to say the thread should be deleted, sent to chaff, etc ...

these are ALL simple facts, everyone one of them as can be seen in this thread ...

;)

robert v
(mtnbob123) - F

Locale: Upstate South Carolina
+1 Poor SMD Customer Service on 06/09/2013 10:29:19 MDT Print View

You have hit the nail on the head. This issue would have never reared it's ugly head if SMD was truly concerned with quality and their customers. Ron's response said it all!! Too bad he took it down.

Jim Milstein
(JimSubzero) - M

Locale: New Uraniborg CO
SMD Queered the Deal, and It Didn't Have to. on 06/12/2013 22:49:04 MDT Print View

This thread must not die!

Yang, you're a good man. Thanks for posting.

As for all you who disparage Yang, call him a whiner, an ignorant noob, say he should just absorb poor treatment and defective goods, well, I don't know what to say, since there is no chance that your minds could grasp the issue (I'm talking to you, John Abela).

Someone said that Amazon (like all other vendors) does not pay shipping for return of defective goods. I have returned defective goods to Amazon twice, both times with a prepaid return label automatically provided by Amazon. On another occasion, the refund was credited, and no return was required. Whether the law requires this service or not, Amazon was clearly doing the right thing, and I appreciate that. I still do business with them despite defective goods now and then.

SMD queered the deal, and it didn't have to. It's that simple.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 06/13/2013 06:06:36 MDT Print View

na

scree ride
(scree)
When you buy a Ford on 06/13/2013 06:43:10 MDT Print View

don't expect a Bentley. Pay attention to the warranty. I have a Ford. Its a good truck. Id buy another. Id rather have a Bentley.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: When you buy a Ford on 06/13/2013 11:11:22 MDT Print View

you have a better "warranty" off some "crap" purchased at costco, REI (even with their new limits), ll bean, etc ...

whats this useless yapping about yuppie cars ;)

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: Re: When you buy a Ford on 06/13/2013 11:37:08 MDT Print View

Speaking of yuppie Eric... did you see this thing???

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: When you buy a Ford on 06/13/2013 12:42:34 MDT Print View

Then buy "crap" at the yuppie stores. They just don't seem to have very much of what I want.
Besides I thought yuppies drove Subarus. Bentleys are for rich white trash like Paris Hilton.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
no, no, no on 06/13/2013 12:57:23 MDT Print View

Yuppies only drive Legacy sedans. Lesbians, DINKs, and outdoorspeople drive Outbacks and Foresters. And rally fans drive WRXs. We don't speak of the Baja.

Edited by spelt on 06/13/2013 12:58:51 MDT.

John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: no, no, no on 06/13/2013 13:06:47 MDT Print View

Hey now... I learned how to drive in a '69 vw baja out on Rabbit Springs Dry Lake in Lucerne Valley CA (yeah, that explains a lot, huh) -- there is nothing like an old vw baja to make a persons heart sing a little John Denver, with the windows rolled down and hoping the battery does not fall through the rusted out floorboard!

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: I'm confused - what exactly are you whining about? on 06/13/2013 17:36:01 MDT Print View

Damn new batch of lunar Solos are heavier.

Jim Sweeney
(swimjay) - MLife

Locale: Northern California
Business in peril on 06/30/2013 12:39:04 MDT Print View

I think we've got it backwards, but hope not. The problem is not that Ron's responses are likely to damage his business, but rather that his responses may be the result of stresses from his business being in trouble. One reaches an "Oh, f..k it" stage in which one has lost all elasticity.

I hope this isn't the case. A SMD Gatewood Cape saved my ass once when a 20% chance of rain turned overnight into a 90% chance of snow, at 10,000 feet.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Business in peril on 06/30/2013 12:43:34 MDT Print View

New batch of Skyscapes in cuben sold out in less than 24 hours. That seems like good business unless he only ordered 20.