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2013 Spring Patagonia Houdini Pants / Jacket
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Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Arcteryx Squamish Gossamera Fabric on 05/27/2013 11:46:19 MDT Print View

"They have coated the Gossamera fabric with an air permeable PU since 2010 and they list the breathability as 7 CFM for the coated version."

They also no longer use the Gossamera fabric in the Squamish line. The fabric is now Luminera.

For those looking for more breathability than the Squamish, check out the incendo line. I use them for running. Trimmer fit than the Squamish. Mesh panels aid breathability. The vest has a full mesh back, in fact. I really like wind vests for running. The Squamish makes more sense for hiking and layering over other layers.

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Re: 2013 Spring Patagonia Houdini Pants / Jacket on 05/27/2013 11:49:33 MDT Print View

Thanks Richard, for doing this work. Do you have a website where some of this information is stored? I would love to read a chart that compares various jackets showing number for CFM, HH and weight. Better yet, it would be nice if Backpacking Light did this. Unfortunately, it looks like they would have to do it every year, as they seem to change without warning. I think it is crazy to see how often the makers change their jackets without changing the name. It is getting be to like car models ("a '70 Firebird is nice, but I like the lines on a '69 better...).

Both rain jackets and wind shirts provide a certain amount of water, wind and bug resistance. So far as I know, all of them work as a mosquito barrier. As stated elsewhere, there is a direct inverse relationship between a garments wind resistance and breathability. The more breathable, the less wind resistant, and vice versa. Given that, I can understand why companies sometimes make their wind shirts more wind resistant and more waterproof. Many of them sell them as the one shirt you need (for all of the elements). I personally wouldn't trust any wind shirt as my only rain garment (for backpacking), but I do appreciate the value. For me, I will always take a rain jacket.

Given that, I want my windshirt to be on the other end of the spectrum. I can always throw on my rain jacket (which is not as breathable) if things get really windy. But if I want an extremely breathable layer for bug protection, or mild wind, then it is nice to have that option. This is why it is frustrating when makers decide to change a garment that served that purpose so well.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Arcteryx Squamish Gossamera Fabric on 05/27/2013 12:10:29 MDT Print View

Gossamera is still produced and they still use it for the face fabric of jackets like the Atom SV Hoody.

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: Arcteryx Squamish Gossamera Fabric on 05/27/2013 13:51:37 MDT Print View

I totally agree with Ross. I want my windshirt highly breathable and wind resistant, not windproof.

> They also no longer use the Gossamera fabric in the
> Squamish line. The fabric is now Luminera.

Looking at their website, it looks like the Luminera fabric also has the PU coating. :(

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Arcteryx Squamish Gossamera Fabric on 05/27/2013 16:17:29 MDT Print View

From the Arcteryx Q&A page (by an Arc rep.):

"The Luminara and Gossamera fabrics are basically two different versions of the same thing. Luminara using a 20 denier filament while Gossamera was woven with a 30 denier filament. Aside from the filament weight the fabrics are the same."

And it does sound like their is an air permeable PU coating used from some of the other info on the page.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Arcteryx Squamish Gossamera Fabric on 05/27/2013 16:37:33 MDT Print View

The Luminera fabric in the Arcteryx wind shells appears to be middle of the road in terms of breathability according to my breathe through tests (not scientific).

I found it significantly better than the MH Ghost Whisperer and a GoLite wind vest I have, but found the Pertex Equilibrium in a Westcomb Crest hoody to be dramatically better than anything else I own. A MontBell 7D fabric felt a little better than the Luminera.

I found Gore WindStopper to be about impossible to breathe through.

I also found all of my rain shells to be impossible to breathe through, including GoreTex, eVent, Salomon's ClimaPro, 3L WPB Cuben, and TNF HyVent.

That westcomb jacket really impressed me compared to the rest. I don't own a Houdini.

Again, these are all subjective tests based on my effort to breathe through the fabric. I made no effort to clean anything prior to the testing and used the sleeve of each jacket as my test sample (vest excluded)

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arcteryx Squamish Gossamera Fabric on 05/27/2013 19:29:36 MDT Print View

Nathan,


1

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
houdini on 05/27/2013 19:40:28 MDT Print View

now I don't feel so silly having three Houdini's :)

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Ah well on 05/27/2013 20:16:07 MDT Print View

Glad that I finally pulled the trigger on a Houdini from last years close out sales. We'll find a good alternative eventually.

Ryan

Ito Jakuchu
(jakuchu) - MLife

Locale: Japan
Re: Re: Montbell Tachyon on 05/28/2013 14:11:26 MDT Print View

Thanks for the great information, measurements and tests.

Sean Passanisi
(passanis) - MLife
Nine Trails on 05/28/2013 15:30:37 MDT Print View

I wonder if the Nine Trails jacket has the breathability of the old Houdini. The jacket is unfortunately hoodless.

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-nine-trails-jacket?p=25020-0-175

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Nine Trails on 05/29/2013 19:19:53 MDT Print View

I tried the Nine Trails while I was in the store. Identical to the new Houdini, unfortunately.

Now that you mention the Westcomb, I think I do recall Pertex Equilibrium to be better than the other Pertex varieties (Quantum and Microlight). Unfortunately, it's a relatively heavy fabric. I don't believe it was quite as good as the old Houdini, however.

Edited by lindahlb on 05/29/2013 19:28:07 MDT.

Jeff Jeff
(TwoFortyJeff) - F
Re: houdini on 06/05/2013 19:45:44 MDT Print View

Has anyone tried the marmot Trail Wind hoody?

For that matter, has anyone actually tried both versions of the Houdini while hiking or doing something active?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Marmot Trail Wind Hoody Air Permeability on 06/05/2013 23:49:14 MDT Print View

Yes, Outdoor Gear Lab tried it.

The Outdoor Gear Lab aerobic field tests indicated that the Marmot Trail Wind Hoody did not breathe as well (OGL 7 rating) as either the 2013 Squamish (OGL 8 rating) or the 2013 Houdini (OGL 8 rating). See http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Wind-Breaker-Jacket-Reviews/Marmot-Trail-Wind-Hoody

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Marmot Trail Wind Hoody Air Permeability on 06/06/2013 06:35:39 MDT Print View

Richard,

The test dates for the OGL tests would suggest the jackets were not the 2013 versions for the Squamish (doesnt really matter) or the Houdini (seems like the 2013 would have done poorly based on BPL accounts)

Maybe they had early pre-production models to test though?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Marmot Trail Wind Hoody Air Permeability on 06/06/2013 10:22:12 MDT Print View

Nathan,

The Squamish fabric has been the same since 2009.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Marmot Trail Wind Hoody Air Permeability on 06/06/2013 11:01:52 MDT Print View

"The Squamish fabric has been the same since 2009."

Yes I know that, but there seems to be a significant difference in the Houdini fabric between 2012 and 2013. And it looks like that test used the 2012 fabric (based on the date of the test) unless they stated otherwise and I missed it.

Alex Wallace
(FeetFirst) - F

Locale: Northern California
the flap on 08/29/2013 10:51:23 MDT Print View

I bought a Men's Houdini directly from Patagonia in Jan. 2013, which does have a flap over the front zipper. Conversely, the garment tag contains this number "24140 FA12," which I believe the "FA12" means fall 2012. I've checked out the newer ones at REI and did a simple breath test and mine seems to breathe much better. Do I have the dud or an anomaly, zipper flap, good one?

Edited by FeetFirst on 08/29/2013 10:57:10 MDT.

Alex Wallace
(FeetFirst) - F

Locale: Northern California
never mind on 08/30/2013 11:09:28 MDT Print View

I spoke to a Patagonia representative via live chat and confirmed that I do in fact have the newer style, aka "the dud." Bummer.

Nathan Watts
(7sport) - MLife
Re: never mind on 08/30/2013 11:19:26 MDT Print View

Sounds like it was working for you though, so why do you care?