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Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins
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just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins on 05/12/2013 10:23:54 MDT Print View

https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-coconut-water-concentrate-8-fl-oz-237-ml-liquid

Not sure if this counts as "gear" or not, but i bought and received some of this stuff a little while ago, and so far quite like it. Add some salt and water (and maybe some b-complex vitamins), and it's a very excellent electrolyte replacement and energy booster. Gatorade doesn't hold a candled compared to this stuff.

It would be great though, if it came in dried powder form, and thus truly and fully concentrated.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins on 05/12/2013 10:42:09 MDT Print View

"...it's a very excellent electrolyte replacement and energy booster. "


Junk2

Sodium - you'd need to drink the entire bottle to replace the sodium lost in a liter of sweat.
Or the amount of sodium you'd get from two MYOG salt capsule for about 4 cents.

Energy - 675 calories per bottle. From simple sugar. No Thanks.


At $5.00 a bottle, 5 bottles a day, in 40 ounces of liquid, that's a lot so money and weight. And that's assuming you sweat/drink only 5 liters of water a day.


"Gatorade doesn't hold a candled compared to this stuff."

Coca Cola is better than Gatorade. Plain water and a pinch of salt is better than Gatorade. Anything is better than Gatorade.

Do you work for Swansons? Or just not do the math?

Edited by greg23 on 05/12/2013 10:53:07 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins on 05/12/2013 11:09:21 MDT Print View

Greg, i also prefaced with "add salt... and...". You are supposed to mix/dilute this with water, and SO the sugar levels will only be 6 grams per serving with 5 grams of other carbs. There are 15 servings per bottle.

It's the very high potassium levels, and in natural form with some natural sugars/carbs, which is what i like about it. We use and sweat out large amounts of potassium as well as sodium, and since the typical western diet tends to be much more deficient in potassium than sodium... i guess i'm "doing different math" than you. Believe it or not, some people actually prefer natural, more food based stuff than just simple math and reductionist nutrition too.

As far as energy booster, i meant solely as a beverage as you are hiking, not as a meal replacement. Also, as i said before, this stuff would be much better if in powder form.

No, i do not work for Swansons vitamins. If i did, i would have said so to begin with.


p.s., while most don't know about or care about such info, this drink is also highly alkalizing because of the combination of the large amounts of potassium, magnesium, and small amounts of calcium, and i find for myself that i get more of an energy boost from this rather than just the calories and sugars.

Bill Law
(williamlaw) - M

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins on 05/12/2013 11:40:40 MDT Print View

Independent of my general and well-founded cynicism about such nutritional supplement fads, I will say that the coconut water I sampled at work was the worst tasting concoction ever.

Daniel Russell
(Superfluous_Grizzly)

Locale: Creation
Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/12/2013 12:19:15 MDT Print View

Greg-
You could have worded your post differently to seem as if you weren't "attacking" the OP. He obviously took some well-thought time to make his post for the good of the community here so.... show a little respect. This, in my humble opinion, is a great deal and Coco Water is one of the most hydrating drinks on the market. With a pinch of salt, like the OP said, will make suitable to provide enough sodium loss from sweat. I don't know about most hikers, but I don't really worry about how many calories are in my drinks... I get that from other sustenance so that part of your post is mostly irrelevant. It seems like your argument was to poke your opinion around, not to provide an accurate representation of product usage. I don't think the OP was meaning for you to only drink this as a complete do all of hydration... so yes, YOUR math was very, very wrong. So if you do your math knowing this now, you can get quite a few uses from this bottle - (much more than a typical coconut water bottle at $6 for 33oz and guess what? Less weight this way). Some of us believe CW is the holy grail of hydration because of the inherent minerals within, especially Potassium (I won't repeat what the OP said about this). I would, ideally, drink a serving of this at the beginning of a hike for an energy boost and at the end of a hike to "re-hydrate." It can be, but ideally is not, something that you drink all day while hiking.

Bill-
I'm sure you've heard that "beer is an acquired taste." There is no difference with CW. I hated it the first few times but now I suck it down like it is the nectar of the gods! At least that is what is feels like for me! YMMV.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/12/2013 12:56:11 MDT Print View

Hi Dan, thank you for the more balanced and constructive reply. I've also been using C.W. for awhile myself, didn't much like the taste at first either, and while i know it's very subjective--i've found that my body really benefits from it over many other beverages that i've tried which are supposedly rehydrators. I also just drink a lot of plain water.

Another thing i've tried, which i also like, is mixing lemon powder with sucanat (a much less refined version of cane sugar that actually has some minerals and vitamins left in), salt, and water. I've found this to be almost just as good as C.W., but less convenient and more sticky. However, it's much lighter, more concentrated, and imo tastes a bit better.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/12/2013 17:10:33 MDT Print View

Dan,
The quote in my post was taken directly from Justine.


You apparently came to the same conclusion.

"...With a pinch of salt, like the OP said, will make suitable to provide enough sodium loss from sweat."

So it's not really an electrolyte source.


"...but I don't really worry about how many calories are in my drinks..."

So it's not really an "energy booster"


Then we are in agreement.

My last comment in that post was uncalled for. I apologize for the snarkieness.
But the facts still stand.

Daniel Russell
(Superfluous_Grizzly)

Locale: Creation
Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/12/2013 18:56:54 MDT Print View

Greg,
Let's use the whole sentence for our quote.

"Add some salt and water (and maybe some b-complex vitamins), and it's a very excellent electrolyte replacement and energy booster."

Table salt is an electrolyte, that is a well known fact. He states, add salt and it is a very excellent electrolyte replacement. I agree with this. It also has Magnesium, Potassium and Calcium which are three of the most crucial electrolytes.

Energy booster? Now that's a little foggy. The argument can be made that vitamins are crucial to your level of energy because they are used for chemical reactions in the body that give you energy. But, of course, vitamins are not an energy source. Vitamins, I have found, give me a nice placebo affect, at the least, because I always feel better when I eat mineral-rich foods like kale or spinach. Inevitably we come to the conclusion that it is not an 'adequate' energy booster, we are in agreement here. However, it is, by definition an "energy booster" because any caloric intake provides energy production (even such a minute amount as in this serving size).

I apologize for my "tone" in my first post as well, I sometimes read back later on what I have written and think "that wasn't necessary."

None of use are wright or wrong. :D

Cheers!

Edited by Superfluous_Grizzly on 05/12/2013 19:02:03 MDT.

Kimberly Wersal
(kwersal) - MLife

Locale: Western Colorado
Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/12/2013 21:12:07 MDT Print View

I appreciate suggestions like this for more naturally based hydration sources. A good alternative to something really nasty like Gatorade.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/12/2013 21:32:40 MDT Print View

Part of the problem is that there is no definition of what is a natural taste. So, I suggest that you try a few different commercial sports drinks first. Try to decide which flavors you prefer. Some have a lot of sucrose sugar. Others have more maltodextrins or other energy compounds for a different glycemic index. Once your sampling is finished, you can concoct your own drink powder using the raw ingredients. You can add special electrolytes, if you wish, or skip them. You can prepare something stronger or weaker in concentration, just as you wish.

Personally, I go for dilute Gatorade or else my own custom mix, but I never use the same flavor for two days in a row.

--B.G.--

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/13/2013 21:34:56 MDT Print View

Greg wrote, "Dan,
The quote in my post was taken directly from Justine."

If you hadn't noticed, my name is Justin (male body--hairy, muscular, with an outie and all) and not Justine. Regards the rest of your erroneous assumptions i suspect we have rather different views on the larger picture of things, so it would be a waste of both of our times for me to go into exact specifics of what i believe, why i believe and how i came to those beliefs via much experience, research, and experimentation. You're already shown quite clearly that you easily and blatantly ignore info that contradicts your assumptions, and i'm not the only one who has noticed this.

Suffice it to generally say, that i've had a long time (16+ years), very committed and intense interest in health and diet because of some childhood health issues that were treated very poorly by mainstream modern medicine, but were treated well and successfully by self after much research, experimentation, and going within--naturally and all through diet, natural medicines (herbs etc), exercise, and attitude changes. As well as watching my mother whom i was very close to, get sick with cancer when i was 16 and later died shortly after my 20th b-day.

I've learned to observe and listen to my body. I've also become skeptical of mainstream, accepted beliefs whether so called "science" based or not.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
fan on 05/13/2013 21:43:59 MDT Print View

well, I drink it because I like the taste, and I can pronounce the ingredients.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/13/2013 22:49:29 MDT Print View

Hi Dan,

I will go a bit into my "energy boosting" statement more specifically for you since you may find the latter interesting. It's neither a mainstream or conventionally medical accepted theory, but there is a growing understanding, acceptance, and theory based on the chemistry and electro-magnetic physics of alkaline and acid within the body (which is over simply and essentially the interplay, reaction, and balance of negative and positive charge).

If you are interested, later i can reference an excellent book written on the subject. I've been aware of this theory and testing it for about 12 years now.

Let's put aside calories, vitamins, and minerals (in and of themselves) for a moment and look at the body in a much more fundamental and core way. When you go deeper, more basic, and smaller than cells, etc our bodies are essentially organized, multi layered vibrating electrical patterns of matter. Just like in electricity, there are two main poles positive and negative and those are expressed and experienced in different ways in the body.

To really simplify things, think of water and blood in connection to our body electricity and the nervous system which is it's main relay system. If you took distilled water, run a strong current through same, and washed off all salts etc from your hand and placed it in the water, you would not experience any electrical shock. The electricity doesn't "move" through the water very well thus you are in a sense insulated from the positive force of electricity.

What happens when you add some salts, like sodium? Bam, you'd get shocked because the electricity can then flow very well throughout the water via the negative charge of same.

It's well known that the human body and it's blood, universally, has a very narrow ph range of about 7.4 eg slightly alkaline. The body works very hard to maintain that very narrow range of blood ph. If that ph gets altered even to a small extent, big problems happen. Again, the life, the body electricity that flows throughout the nervous system functions most efficiently and strongly within an environment of a negative charge because it is electricity in what is essentially primarily water.

The body's metabolic processes are innately acid forming in nature. One way the body keeps balance is through breathing--for an example, continuous fast but deep breaths of fresh air while the body is relaxed and not expending energy can create a more alkaline, negative charge in the body. But the other way we really affect that is through our diet and particularly through minerals in same. Many minerals tend to have an innately strong negative or positive charge.

Basic potassium is the most negatively charged mineral. Some other negatively charged ones are sodium, calcium, and magnesium for the more macro minerals. Some positively charged ones are sulfur, phosphorus, and iodine for example.

But it's not just minerals that affect it. Proteins and amount of calories in general also do. Generally speaking, the higher the concentration of proteins, more acid forming a food or drink will tend to be. Generally speaking, the more calorie rich a food, the more acid forming it tends to be. (large amounts of potassium can offset these to varying degrees depending when in the same food).

I'm really simplifying things here for the sake of brevity, but the typical modern American and general Western diets tend to be rather acid forming--especially those meat and bread, and junk food junkie types. This adds strain to the body and body works over time to try to keep that all important balance. One common way for the body to do same, is to leach calcium from the bones to counteract the acid buildup in the tissues, etc, which eventually can slightly affect that all important blood ph range crucial to life.

Coconut water is very highly alkalizing. It is so because the balance of alkaline reacting minerals to acid reacting is so high on the former (especially potassium), because it is low calorie, very easy to digest, and because it is very low protein. All in a natural package that nature created, and the nutrients of same are highly bioavailable. You can throw a bunch of crappy, treated/over processed table salt and potassium chloride into some water, and yes it will become more alkalizing, but these are not particularly bioavailable forms, and what the body doesn't use is a waste product and must be gotten rid of. Too much non bioavailable stuff can eventually put strain on the body, when it's constantly striving to rid itself of waste products. If it doesn't do it efficiently, this gunk tends to build up, worsening and perpetuating the cycle until something changes. This is why the closer to natural and food based the nutrition it is, generally the more helpful, efficient, and truly health promoting it will be. Our bodies have been designed and fitted to eat foods that nature produces, not man distilled, isolated, over processed, and/or synthesized chemicals, "nutrients", etc.

Hence, in a sense, albeit not in a conventional or direct sense, i've noticed that Coconut water is "energy boosting". Anything that so counteracts and balances out that over acid load constantly being put on the body from diet, stress, metabolic processes, etc will help to energize the body by helping out the electro-magnetic flow of the nervous system, nerves, and blood. You're basically strengthening, amplifying, and facilitating balance in the body electricity itself! No, it's not energizing in the same way or manner that calories (or even vitamins) are, but it's (very) important in it's own way.

It should be mentioned that while it's extremely rare, it is possible to over alkalize the body, and actually that can be more quickly deadly to the body than a chronic tendency to a bit over acidity (which is very, very common)..

It's actually very hard to over do the over alkalizing process via just natural means of foods and natural drinks. But an illustration from my personal files might be suggestive. I once did a 7 day fast wherein i "ate" only liquid, easy to digest, very low calorie, and highly alkalizing foods like green drinks, fresh lemon juice and herbal teas in water, etc. By the end of the fast and once i got over the main detox parts, i actually was buzzing with energy. I had a lot more than normal, to the point wherein my need for sleep dramatically reduced. But i felt strongly that i should not go beyond the 7 days of highly alkalizing drinks--it was like it was becoming too much.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/14/2013 00:57:14 MDT Print View

Just a brief add on to my last post. I've mentioned it before a couple of times briefly, but when i am disciplined in my diet and eat more alkaline reacting foods and diet than not (basically your fruits, most veggies, and some specific nuts and seeds), i don't get even a hint of the common cold let alone anything worse. Occasionally i go off my disciplined diet and eat too many foods i wouldn't normally, more stressed than usual, drink more beer, etc. and i may start to feel a cold coming on, but 9 times out of 10, i will radically change my diet to a much more healthful and alkalizing and it knocks the cold out before it fully takes root.

I don't fully understand the why and mechanism behind this. I've heard that most pathogenic organisms just don't tend to propagate well in an even slightly alkaline environment, as compared to a slightly acidic. (the two most common states in most bodies). While i've seen some specific studies on this, these have been rare. It would be interesting if there were more done.

But, i don't need to fully understand something to understand and know from repeated experience that it works, and consistently so.

Matt Dirksen
(NamelessWay) - MLife

Locale: Mid Atlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/15/2013 05:15:52 MDT Print View

Justin,

I just want to acknowledge you for what you have shared. I read it with great interest and I thank you for your thoughts and personal experience.

My family drinks coconut water fairly often at home, and my wife "swears" she always feels more refreshed after drinking it. You post offered me some possible insight into "why" she might feel this way. She has Lymes, and I believe she is rather sensitive to what she consumes these days.

I (like many on this list, I suspect) attempt to balance the "hard science" of phenomena with the "mystery" of phenomena.

For years, I've come to embrace the belief that the more I "know" about things, the more beautiful and "unknowable" it is as well.

And, like DOS or UNIX, these "Ways" are just operating systems within the hard drive of life, I guess. As long as I can get the printer to work once in a while.


Thank you,

Matt

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
loco for coco on 05/15/2013 11:06:39 MDT Print View

for what it's worth (not saying this one isnt but do your own research) most coconut water is hardly real coconut water.

i see it as a grossly overpriced fad with misleading ingredients which I happen to like the taste of so am guilty of purchasing it now and again.

However, I don't delude myself into thinking it's better at hydrating my body than good old water is.

The sugar is important for most endurance based activities but I think the electrolyte content is not so much.

If you want to get a "deal" buy a giant bag of maltodextrin or perhaps concoct a blend of glucose/fructose and mix your own drinks for pennies.

Edited by Spookykinkajou on 05/15/2013 11:07:57 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: : Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/15/2013 17:42:55 MDT Print View

Hi Matt,

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife having Lymes disease. Your welcome, and thank you as well--i appreciate the appreciation.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: loco for coco on 05/15/2013 18:13:24 MDT Print View

Sean wrote, "The sugar is important for most endurance based activities but I think the electrolyte content is not so much."

Dehydration occurs when either water and/or electrolytes run too low in the body. Water is more important and crucial, but.. During endurance based activities, the body sweats out loads of both sodium and potassium. Also other mineral salts, but those two are the main, major ones. Think of the word "electrolyte" and what it means...

Even if you don't "buy" the alkaline-acid Ph balance theory, most mainstream sources will tell you that electrolytes are extremely important when large amounts of sweat and physical activity are involved--especially any long term activities.

Eating food periodically during your active phases will obviously help that out, but it's far more efficient and quicker for the body to get these through an easy to digest liquid form. But, at the end of the day, sure water is more or less fine as long as you're getting the electrolytes via some other means. But make sure it's not JUST sodium, but also potassium!

Personally, i don't know how processed or not coconut water is--i've never seen it made or packaged in a factory. Many companies will add some things like ascorbic acid (a form of vitamin c--not the most bio-available form though) at the very least, as a preservative. I assume that all companies pasteurize it to some degree to keep it from spoiling and/or to kill any potential pathogens.

Other than that, i don't see what other processing would be done. In the concentrated coconut water's case, obviously they evaporate a large portion of the water out. I've had fresh coconut water, and comparing it to the taste of some of the brands i've tried which add minimal ingredients, the taste is fairly similar though not exactly the same. That, along with the RDA listing of nutrients--which indicates that the processed C.W. is still quite nutritionally dense, leads me to believe that it's more or less natural coconut water.

And, 520 milligrams of potassium and 8% of daily recommended magnesium in just one tablespoon of this concentrated stuff is nothing to sneeze at. It's got more potassium in a tablespoon than a whole small to medium sized banana and is generally more nutritionally dense as far as minerals and vitamins.

Perhaps it's a "fad", but by all accounts it's a smart and healthy, though slightly expensive, fad. A generally cheaper source would be the less refined molasses, like blackstrap cane molasses. However, taste wise personally i will go with the coconut water or concentrate.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 05/17/2013 11:40:49 MDT.

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
info on 05/16/2013 10:02:00 MDT Print View

I'm not an expert, but do have quite a bit of experience and study regarding nutrition. I'm also a professional cyclist that races in extreme climates in southeast Asia on occasion so very well understand the importance of nutrition and hydration.

Most of the "coconut" waters are simply water with natural and artifical flavors to make it taste like coconut water even having hidden ingredients that our wonderful FDA allows and seems to even encourage. for it to truly be coconut water it will need to leave the source frozen and remain that way until happily ingesting it. the vitamins, your potassium you so love, are not a natural source from the coconut water, added after stripping it of essential nutrients to make it "safe" according to the FDA. my guess, like most synthetic vitamins, is they are not readily absorbed by the body and simply passed right through.

The body is an amazing thing and really does not need all these supplements to operate at maximum efficiency.

I've been unable to find hardly any evidence to support that performance is enhanced, even in extreme heat/cold, by taking electrolytes. Usually it's the opposite and that it hampers or is even considered unhealthy. Please share studies if you have them supporting electrolyte supplements. Glucose/Fructose studies? yes! they easily show that they are superior for certain endurance activities compared to just water.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
nm on 05/16/2013 14:12:54 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by greg23 on 05/16/2013 18:33:27 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: info on 05/17/2013 11:39:24 MDT Print View

Sean, i don't know of any studies specifically done on Coconut water. The studies that i do know of re: hydration efficiency, often used the mainstream, popular and heavily advertised "sport drinks", filled with various additives, refined sugars, often lacking potassium, etc. Some studies have used some altered fruit juices as well, but these also are not ideal.

The huge majority of the made from scratch sports drinks (the Gatorade's, the PowerAid's, etc), you could not pay me to put into my body, and so i'm not surprised at all that they fall short in the studies.

Since one good turn deserves another info wise, where is your proof that most coconut water is just fake stuff made to seem like coconut water? And for it to be considered "real" CW, why would it have to remain frozen until you use it? Why is not pasteurized, Vitamin C added Coconut water "real" Coconut water? I would agree that the kept frozen stuff would be better, but i wouldn't go so far as to label non kept frozen stuff not real.

I'm seriously interested, because if you are correct, i would not want to drink or buy the stuff if it's that fake. I AM open to you being possibly correct about this.

Re: electrolytes in general and studies--i remember recently seeing this. It's not completely trustworthy because it's a PR and marketing piece, but because some of the statements mirror my actual experience i'm sharing it. Also, it references to two studies done using the product, which one could research further if interested and have the time. Here is an excerpt regarding the two studies: "Research done at the Seattle Perfomance Medicine Clinic using elite world-class cyclists and a double-blind study done at the Movement Science/Performance Laboratory at Montana State using elite cross country skiers showed that these athletes could exercise 52% longer to the point of exhaustion, had 38% less lactic acid build-up, and had a 35% faster recovery when taking Alka-Plex™. These athletes were also able to rehydrate faster and more thoroughly using Alka-Plex Technology™ water. The researchers noted benefits on metabolic efficiency, mineral absorption, acid neutralization, reduced physical stress, improved sports performance and faster recovery from exercise-induced fatigue."

Here is the site and page i got this from: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/health-library/products/alka-tone-alkalizing-sports-drink-with-alka-plex.html

Regarding the actual product, "Alka-Plex", if you look on the Swanson's website for it (https://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ph-balance-alka-tone-30-0-1-oz-3-8-grams-pkts), you will note that the primary ingredients are alkaline electrolytes minerals--Calcium, Sodium, Potassium, Magnesium and then two B vitamins, but by far the alkalizing electrolyte minerals are the majority "active" ingredients.

When it comes to food and supplements and studies on same re: beneficial or negative properties, i oft find contradictory info out there, even about the same foods! I will go with experience over just studies, and i've found that Coconut water helps me. A poster here, whose wife has lymes and she finds it helps her. Dan Lee seems to like it a lot for some reason(s). At the end of the day, experience (especially my own) is more powerful to me than theoretics or even loosely related studies--pro or con.

For example, repeated, tested, self experience is why i trust and believe in the "Alkaline-Acid" concept and theories. When you go 2.25 yrs without even a hint a common cold, but then get sick only after visiting your in-laws during Christmas time and feel obligated to eat foods and combos you wouldn't normally (i.e. very acid forming), combined with other experiences similar, well i trust that over "trained experts" that say differently.

On that note, have you personally tested Coconut water in your cycling, hiking, etc endeavors? That's were pudding is, and where you may find the real proof--at least for yourself.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 05/17/2013 11:46:13 MDT.

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
coconut on 05/17/2013 12:28:37 MDT Print View

I really wish I saved all the data I've consumed over the years so I could present a better argument, but I simply dont have it and I'm going to Utah tomorrow for some backpacking and mountain biking and don't have the time to search for it!

here's one that's fairly interesting re: coconut water not being real:

http://www.fakefoodwatch.com/2012/07/coconut-water-fad-hucksterism-health.html

I dont know the source above...just searched quickly on google.

Why I think it needs to be frozen is for two reasons. One, the grocery store I frequent sells the popular brands and also has a frozen version and I asked once why. They said because it was the only one that was truly 100% coconut water. This is a vegan grocery store that goes out of their way to verify sources and provide legit food. When reading about this to see if what they claimed was true, I recall reading that it was pretty simple why...if it's not frozen it will spoil before it makes it to the shelves.

Just do a search on "coconut water fraud" or something along those lines and you'll find plenty of interesting information some bordering on conspiracy while others are presented as an excellent argument. Learn about hidden ingredients or "riders" allowed by the FDA in most foods people consume in the USA. learn about "natural" flavors and what a joke that is.

When the coconut water craze first came about I started training with it. Before that and after since I decided it wasn't worth the $, I used a drink by first endurance sports which is a glucose/fructose/long chain sugar among other things like amino acids. Anyways, I like the taste of the coconut water, but noticed absolutely no change in my performance or recovery or perceived effort or general exhaustion tests. I have a power meter which displays the amount of watts I output, and easily see micro changes in my efforts. I've also tried Apple Cider diluted with water. I find it performs exactly like any other sugary drink I consume. See a trend? For me, and most people I know that I race with it doesnt matter what they eat as long as they get the calories needed during the exercise. There are of course exceptions and I hope they don't need to be listed. Like don't eat a bowl of ice cream before the final climb...!

It's great some are finding benefits from consuming something like coconut water, but for now I will remain highly skeptical and chalk it up as placebo.

I'd like to note that I don't think hiking and the bike racing I do are remotely comparable. I usually just drink water when hiking and backpacking but if I'm doing something silly like the presidential traverse as a day hike, or the great range traverse in the same light, I'll use a sugary drink since my level of output requires it on top of the typical food I consume.

I've raced against some of the best pro bike racers, and have been repeatedly shocked seeing what they eat since I've always been very conscience of what I consumed especially while racing. Snack cakes filled with creme, for example. Sometimes you have no choice like when racing in Indonesia, but other times I've asked why they eat it and they say sugar is sugar and they simply like the taste of whatever snack they are eating better.

Interestingly regarding what you (and I) consider a poor quality sports like Gatorade, or even Coca-Cola, it turns out it performs the same as any other good old sugar and water drink in most cases. High Fructose CS, while from a questionable source and path of creation, simply provides glucose and fructose like any other $$$$ sports drink. If you watch races like the Tour de France you'll often see riders grabbing a coke from the car especially on hot days or near the end of a race. And they aren't sponsored by Coke in most cases. This is the most extreme edge and hyper competitive part of endurance cycling and they go for a coke? I look forward to after the race when I can guzzle some soft drink (usually pepsi or coke) and in some cases it's pretty much saved me from simply collapsing or getting sick.

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
study on 05/17/2013 12:44:44 MDT Print View

One last thing I forgot to mention regarding the study that showed a 50%+ gain to exhaustion...Well, I find that totally laughable, and i'm not trying to annoy you or be a jerk!

imagine having 50% more endurance taking their potion? It just doesnt stack up. EVERYONE in the endurance world would be taking this already if it did what they say.

all of these drinks and powders simply dont stand up against the good old PEDs like EPO and testosterone or human growth hormones or so many others.

In the face of that type of competition what we are worrying about, like electrolytes to perform better, well, it's a joke!

Edited by Spookykinkajou on 05/17/2013 12:48:01 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: coconut on 05/17/2013 13:04:40 MDT Print View

Thank you for the detailed and holistic reply Sean. I will look into that link and into some other info.

Sugar is more or less sugar i agree, but i prefer to get it from more food based and less intensely refined sources.

My body is uber sensitive, and because i have psoriasis on my face, i can tell immediately what is good for me or not, and i stopped drinking sodas when i was 16 and haven't looked back. If i was doing some kind of super endurance stuff like you outlined in the above, i guess i would opt for something like sucanat or molasses laden water.

The childhood issue i referenced earlier was not so much the psoriasis (though it was part of it), but it was what the well meaning, but clueless medically trained doctors labeled a "heat allergy". Everytime i got hot, or even warmer than usual, i would break out into the most uncomfortable and very colorful hives all over my body. If i took off my shirt, it would look like my back got strapped with a whip when i had a breakout (and i had multiple ones in a day).

I don't have this anymore and no thanks whatsoever to the doctors (and i went to a few of various specialties), and most of the time i have no outer symptoms of psoriasis either (haven't completely gotten rid of the latter yet because i don't have the sheer discipline to do so). The huge majority of this was achieved through and the psoriasis is now managed by dietary measures, with some herbals thrown in, attention to exercise, and to attitude.

It took a lot of time, research, experimentation, discipline, etc. to correct these issues myself, and ironically my own body and symptoms of imbalance of same have been the best immediate and very clear feedback.

And re: natural foods, supplements, i'm well aware from experience there is a lot of marketing ploys and fudging out there. I will look further into coconut water. Again, thank you. It seems like we are coming at this from different angles and requirements somewhat, but that we both are interested in body health and efficiency ultimately.

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
food on 05/17/2013 13:25:22 MDT Print View

I'd like to thank you as well for taking the time to present your side because you are right, we are definitely coming from different angles but I think the ultimate goal is to do the best we can and continually grow, learn, and modify if necessary. I've changed greatly over the past 10 years since I've really been focusing on my consumption.

Food and drink is an amazingly powerful thing. I strongly believe that both are a direct contributors to the epidemic we face in the USA and increasingly, worldwide for disease and obesity, among other issues. Both mental and physical.

I can't recall if i typed it above, but I'll do it again because I feel I may have deleted it. Whole foods, raw whenever possible, gluten free may be worth pursuing. and don't trust ANYTHING that comes in a box. don't assume organic is organic or natural is natural. I've gradually switched my diet to only farmers market food locally sold by where I live and I've never eaten better. The quality is incomparable and the taste is superior!

somewhat related, this long article may be of interest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html?pagewanted=all

Sadly, I've grown to learn that many doctors, while hopefully almost always using their knowledge with your best interest simply are NOT correct, or they just dont know what to do yet. And most people take their word as definitive and fact. religion-like response. You have first hand experience with this, and I believe it crosses most fields, if not all, and I see it where I work in the field of Oncology - i'm a part time pro racer, full time oncology pharmacy! physical therapy is another area I feel is so poorly done in the states. They always focus specifically on the one trouble spot but never bother to consider the entire body is connected and works as ONE. When I figured that out it dramatically changed my quality of life.

Or doctors willing to do knee replacements on grossly overweight patients and then two years later they complain their knees still hurt while they remain morbidly obese. rarely will they bluntly say LOSE WEIGHT, eat better, and exercise and after you drop 100 pounds we will see how your knees feel.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: coconut on 05/17/2013 13:26:56 MDT Print View

Ok, just read that article you linked. This is the gist of what i got reading it. That manufacturing claims of said benefits of coconut water involves a lot of health claim hype (would not disagree), and that many of these are not as pure as the companies promote e.g. they are altered in some way (again, would not disagree), and lastly some companies hide their connections to much larger corporations perhaps in order to seem like a smaller and more caring company.

But even if a company adds ascorbic acid (a form of vitamin c), "natural" flavors (the one i recommended here does not list "natural flavors" like some brands do), it has less sodium than claimed, and is pasteurized, i still don't see the basic product as being fake, or not real coconut water. Altered some yes, not 100% natural yes, but more or less coconut water. Most packaged orange juice is altered or processed in different ways, and yet is more or less still orange juice.

I wouldn't disagree that it's better to get the frozen stuff you mentioned, or better yet to buy fresh, young coconuts, but i think the previous characterizations might be a little extreme. The fake food watch site wasn't claiming that companies were completely creating a synthesized product, but mainly criticizing the slick marketing ploys surrounding same.

Well, news to us, pretty much every large company, health food product, etc, etc. out there uses some slick marketing strategies, ploys, and the like and hype is everywhere and with so many different kinds of products. In a corporate, consumer, captilistic society we are awash in an ocean of truth bending, exaggerating, sometimes out right lying, info manipulation, etc. motivated by and for self, materialistic gain.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: coconut on 05/17/2013 13:34:43 MDT Print View

Lol, Sean, re: the studies, i did warn that it wasn't completely trust worthy because it was more or less a PR and marketing piece.

I suspect they are fudging with both how they are using their terms and quantifying same.

Anyways, while i can't speak to that particular product, not ever having used it, i can speak to the acid alkaline concept and theory, and know from years of repeat experience and experimentation. Hence, i suspect there is some truth (albeit exaggerated or misleading) to the claims.

Those 2.25 years i went without even getting a hint of a common cold, i worked at a school and was surrounded fairly constantly by kids who were getting sick and working closely with them and quite subjected to all these various germs. Am i a super healthy super man? No, i just have a fairly disciplined diet whose primary basis is in the acid-alkaline concept.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: coconut on 05/17/2013 13:39:26 MDT Print View

Highly agree with what you outlined about food in general, especially about going to farmers markets, eating whole foods primarily, avoiding gluten, etc, Also agree about how the system has become.

Sean Smith
(Spookykinkajou) - F
last thought on 05/17/2013 13:44:28 MDT Print View

Last thought before I disconnect from the internet for 10 days!

What I take from an article like that Re: the manipulation of what coconut water is, is this:

Since there is only a sliver of real coconut water in the drink, perhaps enough to make it qualified to be labeled as such, then clearly it will not have the natural level of potassium, etc in it that a nice, fresh, young coconut would have. So, they add synthetic nutrients (that they arent even required to list as an ingredient) from dubious sources which have often been shown to be completely ignored by the body.

So it's basically like drinking water and taking a multi-vitamin only it costs a lot more.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: last thought on 05/17/2013 13:48:16 MDT Print View

Hope you enjoy your trip! I'm a bit jealous.

William Johnsen
(sixoclocknews) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/18/2013 12:19:09 MDT Print View

Hey Justin,
I'm not trying to say that your diet doesn't work for you or that it wouldn't be beneficial for people but your explanation doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe it was because your were trying to over simplify things, but I think trying to explain mechanisms did more harm than good to your argument (I'm referring to your post on the 13th).

In the hand/water explanation the water you talk about "the positive force of electricity". But electricity is inherently negative, so that confuses me.

Then: "What happens when you add some salts, like sodium? Bam, you'd get shocked because the electricity can then flow very well throughout the water via the negative charge of same."

I think there is ambiguity of terms here that could be confusing. Are you referring to table salt and just short-handing it as sodium? Or saying you'd be shocked if you just added the element sodium to the water?

"Basic potassium is the most negatively charged mineral. Some other negatively charged ones are sodium, calcium, and magnesium for the more macro minerals. Some positively charged ones are sulfur, phosphorus, and iodine for example."

Do you have these all flipped? Postassium, Sodium, Calcium, and magnesium are all found as a cations (positively charged) and sulfur, phosphorus and iodine are negatively charged.

"All in a natural package that nature created, and the nutrients of same are highly bioavailable. You can throw a bunch of crappy, treated/over processed table salt and potassium chloride into some water, and yes it will become more alkalizing, but these are not particularly bioavailable forms, and what the body doesn't use is a waste product and must be gotten rid of."

This just sounds like you're repeating marketing hype. You're acting like they take coconuts, pour the CW out and get rid of some of the water. This is a vitamin company that is selling it at a fraction of the cost and are probably doing exactly what you said you didn't want. Throwing some table salt and potassium chloride (and whatever else is in it) in water. Additionally these are ions in water, not more complex vitamins or proteins so how would the bio-availability change?

"...will help to energize the body by helping out the electro-magnetic flow of the nervous system"

The notion that the pH level change from the foods you eat (which I believe is so insignificant that it isn't going to pull a normal person out of the ~7.3-7.4 range) is somehow going to affect your electrochemical brain function is unfounded and relies too much on uneducated assumptions. In addition to the blood buffer system (which would take a lot of throw the pH balance off, unless you stopped breathing or peeing, and even if you could throw the balance off enough you wouldn't be a very functional person), the molecules would have to cross the blood brain barrier and be in high enough concentrations to adjust an additional buffer system (cerebrospinal fluid).

I am not against whole foods, or healthy eating and I believe you can improve your health doing so. There is just some faulty logic presented and like I said maybe it was because you were trying to oversimplify and I hope this doesn't come across as an attack.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/19/2013 17:00:04 MDT Print View

Hi William,

You are correct, i made a major error in describing the acid alkaline theory and mixed up the inherent charge of the minerals with their effects of alkalizing or acidifying in the body. I just took out a couple of my books based on this and they talk about the acid or alkaline effect happening through binding and attracting particles of the opposite charge. So the positively charged minerals like potassium, calcium, etc bind/attract negatively charged depending on the inherent force. Ultimately the acid alkaline balance relates to the ratio of hydroxl ions to that of hydrogen ions. So the cations, the positively charged minerals (potassium etc), will attract and bond the hydroxl ions potentially faciliating a surplus of that, which is what leads to the alkalizing effect. The basic premise & effect is the same though, large amounts of potassium, magnesium, calcium, etc in foods will tend to have an alkalizing effect in the body (not considering other important factors, like protein ratio, amount of calories, etc).

It's been quite awhile since i've read the specifics of this stuff, but either way i want to apologize for the major error and thank you for pointing that out.

William wrote, "This just sounds like you're repeating marketing hype. You're acting like they take coconuts, pour the CW out and get rid of some of the water. This is a vitamin company that is selling it at a fraction of the cost and are probably doing exactly what you said you didn't want. Throwing some table salt and potassium chloride (and whatever else is in it) in water. Additionally these are ions in water, not more complex vitamins or proteins so how would the bio-availability change?"

To be honest, and i've said from the get go, i DO NOT know exactly what they do or don't do to produce and manufacture coconut water. I would like to know how much they add or don't with this stuff and generally how altered or not it is. If there is someone who works directly with this and doesn't mind disclosing the industry secrets, please speak up now.

Re: minerals, it's not so simple as that. For example, calcium carbonate is not as bioavailable as other forms of calcium that are bonded with other stuff. It is common though, because it's cheap and readily available.

"The notion that the pH level change from the foods you eat (which I believe is so insignificant that it isn't going to pull a normal person out of the ~7.3-7.4 range) is somehow going to affect your electrochemical brain function is unfounded and relies too much on uneducated assumptions. In addition to the blood buffer system (which would take a lot of throw the pH balance off, unless you stopped breathing or peeing, and even if you could throw the balance off enough you wouldn't be a very functional person), the molecules would have to cross the blood brain barrier and be in high enough concentrations to adjust an additional buffer system (cerebrospinal fluid)."

This part i did oversimplify. As i stated earlier, it's not so much changes in the blood that happen to any degree, as the body works extremely hard to keep that in a rather narrow range. It's the buildup in the tissues of the acid which is what really wreaks havoc.

That foods can alter the ph of the body to a significant degree in some ways and in some systems of the body, is apparent to me as i have, like many, have used ph strips to monitor and test the ph of my urine and saliva. Definite and noticeable fluctuations have been noted from day to day, and occasionally even from meal to meal. These strips have shown up as yellow-green color to medium blue.

But this is not a black and white process or indication. A lot depends on what you normally eat and what your levels are normally at, and temporarily introducing foods that are either highly alkalizing or acid forming, can temporarily skew results.

This is the BIG problem though with modern medicine, it's extremely reductionist in nature, and doesn't consider the body as an interconnected whole enough. What happens in the rest of the tissue and the blood of the body, will eventually affect the brain even if not by direct "blood brain barrier". Imbalance in one area, leads to weakness and imbalance in different areas.

Re: whether or not it works, all i can say, is to test it out for yourself. I've been testing it out on myself for about 12 years now. I've healed myself of the mysterious "heat allergy" largely by and through paying attention to this concept, i keep my body's psoriasis in check usually quite well via this theory/diet, and out of all the people i personally know, i seem to get sick the least. I use to be more "normal" and get sick more often like the many others i know before changing my diet in accordance with this concept.

I consistently avoid or knock out colds using this, and over a 12 year period. That kind of repeated experience is extremely powerful. Here is an experience in the beginning that my wife and i had when we first moved in with each other. She had just started to show strong symptoms of both strep throat and pink eye at the same time. I decided to test this theory/concept on her--which i was just learning about and open minded but skeptical. I prepared her food that i had read was very highly to moderately alkalizing, and only such foods. Within two days of symptoms first showing, she was back to normal.

With repeated experiences like this, someone could speak to me all day about theoretics and so called "medical facts", or tell me it's all just placebo effect, but being a practical person, actual experience is what i go more by and which converts/changes my belief systems. Mainstream, modern medicine only truly knows a fraction of what there is to know yet. Mainstream medicine tells me that psoriasis is a genetic disease and that there are no other cause besides genetics. They don't treat it by diet whatsoever. They treat it primarily by outside creams, UV therapy, and other external means primarily.

Yet, i've had this since before age 16, but started treating it around then via natural means of diet, herbs, and exercise. Diet has a HUGE effect on it--the most besides stress. I now don't give a crap what modern medicine says about psoriasis because they have failed in treating the causes, and didn't even treat the symptoms that well either. I've come to learn and know that it's primarily not genetic, but a digestive-intestinal issue. When i take herbs that specifically treat and help with that, like slippery elm bark tea, it powerfully reduces symptoms. When i avoid certain foods, the symptoms go away, when i eat more alkaline, the same.

Those same experts will tell me and you and everyone that there is nothing to the acid-alkaline theories, and it's pseudo science. I've begun to wonder if the large and hugely profitable medical-pharmaceutical-educational complex truly wants to heal people or just continue treating outside symptoms and keeping people dependent on the care. I suspect that most doctors, personally, do want to heal, but doctors have become more the middlemen.

So i highly suggest and recommend testing it out yourself before coming to any staid belief systems. When you form a belief about something with no repeat experience, it becomes very hard to change said beliefs because perception and beliefs are so intertwined and mutually affecting. If there is no initial openness and if you already "know" something, you won't be open to experience that suggests otherwise.

But back to Coconut water, indirectly you bring up a very good point and something i've been wanting to add before i saw your post. Coconut water, by itself, will not create any major changes in your body just from occasionally or even often using this stuff. That's not the way this whole thing works, it's a cumulative and overall diet AND lifestyle thing. If you eat my alkaline forming foods, avoid certain combinations, exercise properly, have positive and loving attitude, etc as a trend, AND you use things like Coconut water, that's where there will be more of an effect as regards alkalization.

You can't eat the typical SAD and have that lifestyle and expect that any single food or drink is going to do you much good in and of itself.


RE: electricity--i am fairly ignorant in the subject, but my understanding was that electricity involved both positive and negative charges, and the very essence of it happens through the interplay of both. That's what i was trying to describe, albeit in a very non technical and probably really inadequate way.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 05/19/2013 17:14:06 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Total scam on 05/19/2013 17:36:55 MDT Print View

Oh, there is no doubt at all that 'coconut water' is a total scam. The way the labeling has been done shows that. The lawyers must have had a field day creating that. Mind you, one has to wonder at the morality and ethics of the company lawyers. They MUST know they are absolutely scamming the public.

OK, come in sucker. not the first, not the last.

> races like the Tour de France you'll often see riders grabbing a coke from the car
> especially on hot days or near the end of a race.
Indeed, and why? Three very good reasons:
* 300 mL of really cold water cools the brain stem and throat as it goes down
* a big sugar hit for very short-term energy boost near the end of the race
* a legal!! hit of a powerful stimulant (caffeine) near the end of the race

Note that using caffeine before a race as a stimulant is probably illegal, but the officials ignore the can of Coke near the end. Wonder what tolerance that cost a certain company?
[Correction: the ban on caffeine has been removed.]

Disclosure: A large chocolate Magnum ice cream and an cold Coke from a cafe/bar on a high pass in anywhere in Europe - yep, been there many times! Works great!

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 05/23/2013 17:28:18 MDT.

Clayton Black
(Jivaro) - MLife
Re: Total scam on 05/19/2013 17:43:48 MDT Print View

Magnum Bar w/almonds......food of the gods!

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins on 05/19/2013 18:43:34 MDT Print View

It isn't the "coconut water" that makes the difference, it is the belief that it does.

Next year another miracle product will come along and for a while that will work too.
(come back to this in a few years time and let me know...)

If your medical or emotional condition is aggravated by stress of course finding something that you believe works will help.
For some it is supplements,for others is prayer or meditation or a particular exercise but what you do is not as important as believing that it does work.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Total scam on 05/19/2013 19:07:06 MDT Print View

"Mind you, one has to wonder at the morality and ethics of the company lawyers."

Insert big chuckle here. ;o)

"They MUST know they are absolutely scamming the public."

The second principle students learn in their first year of law school is that "nobody ever went broke underestimating the American Public". *


* H. L. Mencken

Brian Johns
(bcutlerj) - M

Locale: NorCal
Pasteurized? on 05/19/2013 23:01:08 MDT Print View

This is not as healthy as the raw, non-pasteurized c-water that can be had.. It is also more expensive.

Edited by bcutlerj on 05/19/2013 23:11:25 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Coconut water concentrate 50% off at Swansons Vitamins on 05/20/2013 08:49:16 MDT Print View

Franco, who on this thread ever referred to coconut water as a "miracle product"? All i said was that it has a lot of electrolytes (besides sodium, which is overloaded into so many of our foods anyways), especially potassium. I said it helps to boost energy, particularly if you add b vitamins, and i said because of the large amounts of potassium and magnesium and small amounts of calcium, it will have a strong alkalizing effect on the body, which in my experience is only a good thing unless overdone (which is hard to do).

Not once did i refer to it as anythign even close to being a miracle product.

More specifically, this is what i wrote in my last post before your reply on this thread,

"But back to Coconut water, indirectly you bring up a very good point and something i've been wanting to add before i saw your post. Coconut water, by itself, will not create any major changes in your body just from occasionally or even often using this stuff. That's not the way this whole thing works, it's a cumulative and overall diet AND lifestyle thing. If you eat many alkaline forming foods, avoid certain combinations, exercise properly, have positive and loving attitude, etc as a trend, AND you use things like Coconut water, that's where there will be more of an effect as regards alkalization.*

You can't eat the typical SAD and have that lifestyle and expect that any single food or drink is going to do you much good in and of itself."

*should have also added, " and overall health"

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Pasteurized? on 05/20/2013 08:55:05 MDT Print View

Brian wrote, "This is not as healthy as the raw, non-pasteurized c-water that can be had.. It is also more expensive."

I completely agree.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Growth Hormone/Stimulator on 05/22/2013 09:38:09 MDT Print View

I used to use coconut milk/water as a growth hormone when growing hosta plants invitro.

Make sure you aren't growing any extra body parts when ingesting this stuff;)

This stuff has been know to enlarge body parts;)

Bill Law
(williamlaw) - M

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/23/2013 15:16:37 MDT Print View

Dilbert on Coconut Water

William Johnsen
(sixoclocknews) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Poking negative opinion never helps..... on 05/23/2013 17:47:01 MDT Print View

Hey Justin,
Sorry for the delayed response. I wasn't trying to defend the SAD in any way. It sucks.

"It's the buildup in the tissues of the acid which is what really wreaks havoc.
That foods can alter the ph of the body to a significant degree in some ways and in some systems of the body, is apparent to me as i have, like many, have used ph strips to monitor and test the ph of my urine and saliva."

This doesn't really do anything to help your theory because a changing pH in your urine just suggests that your blood buffer system is working properly and doesn't provide any information about differing tissue pH. Additionally if pH is the cause of diseases why aren't areas of the body that have super acidic pH's always diseased or nor functioning properly? Lactic acid builds up in your muscles when you exercise, but your body breaks it down and eliminates it. You claim, and rightfully so, that exercise is good for you. But it's an activity that raises the pH (temporarily) of tissues which is contrarian to the pH theory (it's easier for me to call what you're talking about this). The pH theory wants it both ways in the sense that in some areas the body (cells) can alter the pH, but not in other places. I don't believe this to be true.



"This is the BIG problem though with modern medicine, it's extremely reductionist in nature, and doesn't consider the body as an interconnected whole enough."

I don't think that statement is a fair characterization because it's not so much that they don't consider the whole body, it's that many of the same hormones/cytokines etc are used by different pathways. So you target one and it has other effects not because they aren't considering them, but because you can't (yet) target something that specific. That doesn't mean they don't know what is going on. It's a compromise that we have to live with until medicine advances. I'm not saying they know everything, there's obviously a lot of learn, but that isn't a reason to reject things they do know.



"Re: whether or not it works, all i can say, is to test it out for yourself. I've been testing it out on myself for about 12 years now."

I'm not saying that it doesn't work, I'm just saying there's a really good chance it isn't working the way you think it is.



"Mainstream medicine tells me that psoriasis is a genetic disease and that there are no other cause besides genetics. They don't treat it by diet whatsoever. They treat it primarily by outside creams, UV therapy, and other external means primarily."

Psoriasis IS a genetic disease. It's an autoimmune disorder primarily driven by T-cells, and as a result an increased production of pro-inflammatory cytokines. Different creams work on different parts of the pathway to inhibit various signals/receptors and to try to curb the symptoms, they don't fix the mutations in the DNA to cure it (we aren't there yet either). The fact that your diet can alter the manifestation of the disease doesn't mean it's cured. It also doesn't do anything to suggest it isn't genetic. There are a number of explanations of why it might be working, but it's difficult to test, so I'm not going to say what about your diet is helping. pH is highly unlikely (because of all the things we've talked about) but *could* explain it by altering gene expression (again cells work very hard to keep the pH at a level they are comfortable with) If I had to guess, it would be that some nutrient mimics some part of the pathway that inhibits T-cells, but that's unfounded and simply a guess.

I think it's natural to want to explain what is happening for your own sake and to share what has been working for your with others. But if you dig a bit deeper into the science you'll see why the pH theory isn't proven or accepted. It relies on claims that are difficult to test and emotional aspects (mainstream medicine doesn't know everything so they don't know anything, and there is a larger oppression based on money).

*stupid spelling errors.

Edited by sixoclocknews on 05/23/2013 17:49:25 MDT.