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Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
MHW Thermal Q: Primaloft contender on 05/08/2013 18:59:39 MDT Print View

http://vimeo.com/58284542

In the video, he claims Thermal Q is about 3 clo per 100 grams, which is 0.86 clo/oz. Sounds like it's better than all but the highest quality productions of Primaloft One (0.84 or .92?)

They claim it's 20% warmer than the leading synthetics - but they probably mean it's 20% warmer than the synthetics they were using before (Thermic Micro) - which finally gives us an idea of the likely clo value of Thermic Micro - about .70 clo/oz. Previously, it was impossible to find this figure. They were probably tight-lipped because they didn't want to admit cheapening their jackets between 2008 and 2009 by moving from Primaloft One to Thermic Micro/Primaloft Eco.

http://marketing.mountainhardwear.com/pr/seasonal-products/fall-2013/

Their Thermostatic Hoody this fall will come in at 10oz, and will be the lightest and warmest 60 gram synthetic jacket. Hopefully they get the sleeve length right, this time around (the old Thermostatic jackets had short sleeves and don't play well with gloves). This is about the same weight as the Patagonia Nano Puff Pullover, but comes with a full zip and a hood. It's also lighter than the 60g Primaloft One Rab Xenon jacket. Cool!

The North Face is also coming out with a new insulation, Thermoball, and is claiming that in the lab, it's testing as good as 600 fill power down. This is approximately. Taken at face value, this means that North Face has bested Primaloft One, and Thermal Q as well.

800 fill power is about 1.68 clo/oz. Premium 850+ used by most manufacturers is about 1.88 clo/oz. 600 fill power is about 1.26 clo/oz. North Face claiming to have created a synthetic fill with ~1.2 clo/oz is a pretty hard to believe, but I guess we'll see.

Durability of both Thermal Q and Thermoball will be interesting to see as well. It's nice to see some competition in this space, and hopefully we'll see improvements beyond the clo/oz of Primaloft One.

Maybe Richard has done some testing on some of these new fills? ;)

As an aside, I think I remember reading Richard claiming that 100g Primaloft One in a jacket is about equal to 3.5oz of 850+ fill weight down?

Edited by lindahlb on 05/08/2013 19:16:16 MDT.

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
cool on 05/08/2013 23:33:00 MDT Print View

Thanks Brian. MH has definitely upped their game as of late. I like that they are making improvements in both UL down and synthetic garments. The thermostatic looks good especially considering that Rab looks to be adding weight to their Xenon for next year. As much as I'd like a hooded ghost whisperer jacket, I still think that a super light synthetic piece provides a bit more 4-season versatility. 10oz is really good.
The B-Layman jacket looks good too. If the new insulation is effective, it'll be the warmest synthetic belay jacket in that weight range at 200grams and 26 oz.

Edited by sgiachetti on 05/08/2013 23:41:57 MDT.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Yes, BUT... on 05/09/2013 00:43:07 MDT Print View

Is this new insulation DURABLE in terms of loft retention after repeated stuffings?

I still don't like Primaloft's "loft life". I much prefer Climashield.

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: cool on 05/10/2013 11:04:12 MDT Print View

Totally agree. MH is definately coming out with some awesome products lately. OR is another manufacturer that doesn't get much love on here, but also has some amazing products.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
update on 12/18/2013 09:29:57 MST Print View

Just found this in a Magazine. Explicitly states that an independent lab found Thermal Q to be 35% warmer (comparing 60g/m2) than Primaloft One. That's pretty impressive. Probably just as "durable" since One is short staple fiber so isn't all that durable to begin with.


thrmalq

Not sure if y'all will be able to see the fine print...
From an ad in the December '13 issue of Outside magazine.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 12/18/2013 09:38:44 MST.

Babak Sakaki
(persianpunisher) - F
Malarkey on 12/18/2013 09:40:27 MST Print View

I've thoroughly tested tnf's thermoball and can attest to it's improved performance and comfort over PL1

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: MHW Thermal Q: Primaloft contender on 12/18/2013 10:44:44 MST Print View

Well, I've seen both the '20% and 35% better-claims' and it seems to me like a marketingstunt. Based on the 35% claim, that would almost be as warm as 700 FP down.

The CLO/oz of 600 FP down is not 1,26. It just not that simple as 1,68 for 800 FP down divided by 8 and multiplied by 6. I come by regression to something like 1,05 to 1,1 for 600 FP.

And then a question: how was a CLO of 3 for a garment converted to 0,86 clo/oz/yd2 ?

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Regression? on 12/18/2013 10:52:45 MST Print View

Tom, you built a regression program to predict CLO? Very interesting. May I ask what the IVs are? Prediction (measured by r or r-squared) is pretty good, is it?

Edited by Bolster on 12/18/2013 10:56:39 MST.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
MHW Thermal Q: Primaloft contender on 12/18/2013 11:26:30 MST Print View

They fixed the original Primaloft issue of shifting/lumping up didn't they? I have the original sb from when it first came out. Was not a good product. I was sold by the waterproofness demonstrated by my then local outdoors store.
Duane

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Regression? on 12/18/2013 11:27:24 MST Print View

Well, I don't want to say it is that hard and difficult. It isn't. Everybody can do it. Just take the point (800;1,68) and (550;0,92) (as often it's stated that 550 FP = ± the best synthetics). Then, plot a linear regression curve and voila ... I hope to improve that curve by adding more data in the future.

Edited by Woubeir on 12/19/2013 01:41:17 MST.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: tnf thermoball on 12/18/2013 17:03:34 MST Print View

FWIW, the Thermoball jackets I've seen here in the Tokyo TNF store are VERY LOFTY with the look and feel of the best UL down jackets.

PL1 60g jackets tend to look kinda "flat" in comparison.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: tnf thermoball on 12/18/2013 22:10:31 MST Print View

Does anyone know what material the Thermoball insulation is made from? Polyester, polypropylene, nylon, or some other?

Ito Jakuchu
(jakuchu) - MLife

Locale: Japan
Re: Re: Re: Re: tnf thermoball on 12/19/2013 00:38:33 MST Print View

From what I've seen in Japan at least Primaloft Thermoball is made from 100% polyester.

Edited by jakuchu on 12/19/2013 00:39:55 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
thermoball on 12/19/2013 01:58:39 MST Print View

thermoball is claimed to be the equivalent of 600 fill down

interesting that MH is trying to push the envelope ... when theres a "top" brand out there thats DOWNGRADING the insulation on their thicker synthetic jackets

;)

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: tnf thermoball on 12/19/2013 08:56:11 MST Print View

Thank you for the reply and info Ito.