UL shovel mandatory?
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USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
UL shovel mandatory? on 05/04/2013 06:29:29 MDT Print View

Is there a source for a UL shovel if one wants hot meals during fire restrictions? Which also includes stoves if you'll carefully read your campfire permit. In my early days from the '70's, I always packed one of those steel shovels with the wooden handle, which I had cut the handle down to the minimal USFS required size, as I cooked over a wood campfire. Per our permit, a campfire is defined as a stove also.
So maybe whats-his-name has a new income source for a ti shovel?
Duane

Sumi Wada
(DetroitTigerFan) - F

Locale: Ann Arbor
Re: UL shovel mandatory? on 05/04/2013 07:18:34 MDT Print View

Might help if you identify what "campfire permit" you're referring to.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
re: UL Shovel on 05/04/2013 11:35:07 MDT Print View

In regard to my California NF fire permit, if asked if I have a shovel, I reply, "Yes," having my QiWiz "Big Dig shovel in mind. I've never been asked more than that. In forty years of backpacking, I've never carried a "regulation" shovel, nor have I been asked to produce one.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: UL Shovel on 05/04/2013 12:41:32 MDT Print View

I was backpacking with one buddy in Yosemite National Park, when we smelled smoke in one small area. We walked around and found a smouldering fire under the ground surface where some others had camped. We each carried one long SMC metal snow stake for shelter purposes, so we used those as shovels. Then a platypus of water got it finished.

--B.G.--

Gary Dunckel
(Zia-Grill-Guy) - MLife

Locale: Boulder
UL shovel on 05/04/2013 12:49:19 MDT Print View

Steve, I've been thinking along the same line as you. I have one of Rob's new Mega Dig trowels, which I plan to use to scoop campfire coals under my Zia grill. I wonder if a simliar, but much larger, "shovel" could be made the same way as the QiWiz trowels. I need to contact Rob Kelly about this. Does anyone know what the USFS considers a minimal size for their required shovel?

David Miles
(davidmiles) - F

Locale: Eastern Sierra
Re: UL shovel on 05/04/2013 12:54:35 MDT Print View

Backpacking stoves are exempt from fire restrictions.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker)

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: UL shovel on 05/04/2013 13:09:58 MDT Print View

The California campfire permit defines a campfire as wood fires, charcoal fires, and portable gas stoves using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel. The terms of the permit require you to have a shovel for a campfire at all times.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5404941.pdf

I would never carry a shovel backpacking for a fire or stove. That rule is for car campers. Yeah, I guess you could get ticketed for it. Any ranger who tickets a backpacker for not having a shovel with their backpacking stove is a complete asshole.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: UL shovel on 05/04/2013 15:15:04 MDT Print View

agree with gob

Edited by jshann on 05/04/2013 15:16:05 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: UL shovel on 05/04/2013 15:54:41 MDT Print View

Since the size of shovel is not specified, a trowel should appease the Man.

Robert Kelly
(QiWiz) - MLife

Locale: UL gear @ QiWiz.net
Trowel = Shovel on 05/04/2013 16:07:31 MDT Print View

Since the regs do not define what is meant by a shovel, or what the dimensions must be, it would seem to me that the worst case scenario on showing off your Big Dig to an inquisitive ranger would be a warning to bring a bigger shovel in future.
A MEGA Dig is bigger than a Big Dig, BTW, and still less than an ounce.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
UL shovel on 05/04/2013 16:08:57 MDT Print View

That's what I just said. Without the shameless plug!

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: UL shovel on 05/04/2013 16:24:09 MDT Print View

Antiquated language on the permit. Remember folks, these are not written by a legal department and are clearly not enforced enough to be questioned.

Technically you can get fined for not having a shovel with a stove. However Justin is right, you'd have to have a real pain of ranger to ticket you (or be less than friendly yourself, giving them reason to not be nice). So really the only way I'd worry about getting a ticket is if I was an asshole...

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Trowel = Shovel on 05/04/2013 17:17:20 MDT Print View

"Since the regs do not define what is meant by a shovel, or what the dimensions must be, it would seem to me that the worst case scenario on showing off your Big Dig to an inquisitive ranger would be a warning to bring a bigger shovel in future. "

This scenario makes me giggle. Looking forward to it almost. "See sheriff, I DO have a shovel, *waves titanium potty trowel* and I think the judge will agree I have complied with the letter of the law. *spit* Now if you'll pardon me, I have a train to rob." Still, no sillier that asking someone with a canister stove to carry a shovel to put out all those underground embers he/she created. If it ever got that far there would have been quite a fireworks show as the canister exploded. Anyway, most of the rangers I have met were far, far more sensible than either the folks who wrote the regs, or the average campers they run into, so I'm not too worried.

Edited by millonas on 05/04/2013 17:23:10 MDT.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
UL shovel mandatory? on 05/06/2013 03:41:57 MDT Print View

Thank you all. In the old days, the Campfire Permit did mention the minimal size a shovel had to be. Only one Campfire Permit, nothing for only wood campfires, one just for stoves, one just for bpers etc.
I was off motorcycle camping this weekend.
Duane