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Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
Overstuff? on 05/02/2013 10:04:05 MDT Print View

Can someone tell me the difference between...say.......a 10degree EE quilt or a 20 degree quilt with overstuff? What do you have then, a 10 degree quilt?

Thanks

Corbin Camp
(heycorb)

Locale: Southeast
Loft on 05/02/2013 10:29:59 MDT Print View

The 10 has more loft than the 20.

Casey Jones
(cjsbug) - F
Re: Overstuff? on 05/02/2013 10:34:39 MDT Print View

The Rev 10 has a 1/2" greater baffle height and loft than the Rev20. It might be close to a 10* quilt. Not sure how much the shorter baffle affects down compression and insulation. Might me negligible.

If you overstuff the Rev20 to match the fill weight of the 10* quilt, it would cost the same as the Rev 10, so why wouldn't you just get the 10* quilt if that's what you're targeting?

Edit: Corbin beat me to it.

Edited by cjsbug on 05/02/2013 10:35:49 MDT.

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
My bad on 05/02/2013 10:42:26 MDT Print View

I didnt do a good job of my initial question.

Let me take another stab at it.

Why would someone buy a 20degree quilt..then overstuff it?

WHy not buy the quilt specs they want?

Am I missing something?

Corbin Camp
(heycorb)

Locale: Southeast
A little more warmth? on 05/02/2013 10:53:59 MDT Print View

I have an EE Rev 40 with 1oz of overstuff. I spent one night with temps in the upper 30's and was fine. No extra layers. I figured for the slight weight penalty and $5 cost, I could have something that will work 95% of the time for me.

J R
(JRinGeorgia) - F
it's increments on 05/02/2013 11:01:03 MDT Print View

The fill weight of the 10* is 3oz more than the fill weight of the 20*. So yes, there would be no point to getting 3oz of overstuff on a 20* quilt, you would just be taking the same amount of down as in a 10* quilt but over-packing it into smaller baffles.

The overstuff is sold in 1oz increments so you can get "in between" -- so take a 20* quilt and overstuff 1oz you've created about a 17* quilt, overstuff 2oz and you've got about a 14* quilt. The numbers don't work exactly like that, it isn't linear because the baffle height is designed to accommodate a certain amount of loft, overstuffing adds more insulation but if it impacts loft then you won't get 100% of the overstuff benefit, but you get the general idea.

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Re: it's increments on 05/02/2013 11:11:09 MDT Print View

Over stuffing also has the added benefit that the down is better stabilized. You'll get less down shifting off your body into the sides of a quilt/bag when overstuffed. There is a minor warmth/weight performance hit by doing so but a slight benefit to functional warmth as well.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: it's increments on 05/02/2013 11:11:55 MDT Print View

The reason for overstuff is to maintain down in all the baffles, even if some baffles have a little less than others and as the down gets wet or dirty and loses some loft.

If you don't do the overstuff, maybe in these conditions you will occasionally notice that some baffles don't seem to have any down in them at places so you have to start shifting down around.

If you got the quilt with the thicker baffles and the same amount of down, it might be vulnerable to this problem.

Of course it depends on that particular lot of down, how it's constructed, how much down the manufacturer chooses. If the manufacturer skimps on the down to save money and weight then it's more of a problem.

Jason Johnson
(etex9799)
Thanks JR on 05/02/2013 11:13:47 MDT Print View

very clear now

Casey Jones
(cjsbug) - F
Re: Re: it's increments on 05/02/2013 12:20:42 MDT Print View

Keep in mind that with the 2013 EE quilts, Tim changed the specs so the baffle walls are closer together for less down shift. Overstuffing for stability of down shifting alone may not be as necessary as with the earlier versions.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: My bad on 05/02/2013 13:43:14 MDT Print View

Why would someone buy a 20degree quilt..then overstuff it?

WHy not buy the quilt specs they want?

Am I missing something?

---------

I live in a hot desert and have thin blood. I will be cold in a 20 degree rated quilt or bag when it is actually 20 degrees.

Ray Estrella lives in some god-forsaken ice box of a state and would probably be rather warm in the same quilt or bag.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: it's increments on 05/02/2013 13:47:50 MDT Print View

"Tim changed the specs so the baffle walls are closer together for less down shift."

It seems like there should be a relationship like the baffle width should be twice the loft.

Baffle width more than this results in more down shifting creating spots in a baffle with no down.

Just speculating - I haven't heard any expert have an opinion.

BJ Clark
(bj.clark) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Overstuff 20 vs 10 degree on 05/02/2013 14:06:17 MDT Print View

Good answers all around. I just went through this with Tim at EE. I was going to add 2 ounces to the 20 degree and he thought that would be about a 15 degree bag, but with the baffles holding more. I then realized that as a cold sleeper, I could go with the 10 degree quilt for about 2.5 ounces more than the overstuff and not worry about the cold at all Yes the baffles are bigger, but it is a great quilt. Slept down to 14 degrees in it so far and I was plenty warm. My original a thought was to go with 15 and 35 degree quilts with overstuff. Decided on 10 and 30 degree quilts instead. Either way will work.

Steve B
(geokite) - F

Locale: Southern California
Ok, on the same sorta subject on 05/02/2013 15:44:33 MDT Print View

Why do EE quilts have such large baffle spacing? Doesn't that lead to more of the down shifting, compared to a more conventional baffle spacing? Is the large baffle spacing the main reason EE quilts are lower priced?

Steve

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Overstuff? on 05/02/2013 16:41:08 MDT Print View

Why do EE quilts have such large baffle spacing? Doesn't that lead to more of the down shifting, compared to a more conventional baffle spacing?

This has certainly been my experience with my 40 degree overstuffed quilts (older style). Most people seem happy though and as mentioned earlier the baffle spacing has been reduced.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Ok, on the same sorta subject on 05/02/2013 16:59:24 MDT Print View

Our baffles really cant be compared apples to apples with any thing else out there. They aren't tubes, and they arent just boxes so nothing else you can find is like ours. This can complicate comparisons but we think these baffles work great, allow customization no others offer and allow us to keep the cost down.

The reduced gap size for 2013 has fixed any issues with shifting we had in the past in our 30-40* quilts. Multiple stuffing cycles may result in slightly uneven distribution but it is very easy to even it out again every so often.

-Tim

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Overstuffing for down stability on 05/02/2013 17:09:04 MDT Print View

Slight thread drift, but others brought it up in response to original poster....

Ive wondered about overstuffing from an alternative angle. If i get a 30 degree bag and the down shifts, people will say "Next time get it overstuffed."

If billy bob the next day comes in here and says he also got the same brand sleeping bag, but in a 20 degree version, oh, and by the way, his down shifts.... People will tell him to get overstuff.

Well, if the overstuffed worked on the 30 degree bag... Why would a 20 shift at all. It shouldnt if overstuffing worked on the 30.

You know what I think. Continous baffles suck. Period. I have no experience with thr karo baffle system. but in general, I think, outside of getting in between temp ratings, overstuffing is a marketing tool and gimmick.. Od course, if you stuff enough down in a limited area, at some point it will not shift.


I literally have not had a 15 degree bag or warmer wirh horizontal continous baffles keep down from shifting around the shoulder and chest area. EVER. I think most people either just dont notice and have warmer then needed bags. And i am hard pressed to figure out how so many people claim continous baffles is a feature - and not a liability in most common situations and needs.

I applaud EE for trying to impeove down migration by changing baffle spacing. Personally, i just dont see why more bags just dont have chambers in their baffles or the karo baffles without the opened space at the 4 corners, in both cases, to keep the down inplace.

Seriously, how many people really need to move their down so much. Ive used my 0 into the 40s without moving any down. I can kind of see a 30 degree bag perhaps, trying to stretch it into the high 50s or 60s... But for the life of me, i cannot understand why so many people just accept the ability to move down as an accepted, universal feature... But never get tired of waking up cold and having to push their down bag into place at night. I guess some of you sleep totally still... Or its just me!?

Edited by fitztravels on 05/03/2013 06:30:20 MDT.

J C
(Joomy) - M
Agreed I think on 05/03/2013 02:39:44 MDT Print View

Fitz, without any quilt experience per se I tend to agree with you. It's always seemed to me that allowing down to shift would mostly be a nuisance rather than a benefit. That said, I haven't used these Karo baffles, they might be totally awesome but I still don't think that if I had them I would use them.

I would be worried about shifting too much down away at the start of the night and waking up freezing, and then waking up my tent/hut companions by trying to shift down back where I need it. The whole point of a quilt is that you can open it up or wear more or less clothing in order to adjust your warmth, shifting down around as well seems like more effort than it's worth for me. That said, I hear the new Karo baffles are good at keeping down in place, so I am thinking about buying an EE quilt anyway.

Edited by Joomy on 05/03/2013 02:40:41 MDT.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
stuff on 05/03/2013 07:40:41 MDT Print View

All down shifts unless overstuffed, Ive never found its much of a problem.

I have a quilt from EE, a WM bag, and Montbell bag.

They all do it.

Yes , you are supposed to have 2" loft, and you have a spot on top of you thats 1".

It really makes small difference in the overall scheme of things, somewhere else is 3"
More heat lost in one spot, less lost in another.

Its the average that counts

Provided its not too severe and all on top of you where heat loss is greatest

Herbert Sitz
(hes)

Locale: Pacific NW
baffle size on 05/03/2013 09:11:45 MDT Print View

"Well, if the overstuffed worked on the 30 degree bag... Why would a 20 shift at all. It shouldnt if overstuffing worked on the 30."

You're assuming that baffles are the same in both 20 and 30 degree bags. Yes, they may have aame width and length, but baffle height is different. They're made to hold different volumes of down.