Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!
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M B
(livingontheroad) - M
morality on 05/12/2013 17:11:39 MDT Print View

Im not sure society was ever the rosy way "the good old days" are remembered or portrayed. There have always been plenty of bad elements, from the dawn of recorded history to the present.

We did have a period in the US from the victorian era thru the 1950s that has basically been described as a moral anomaly in the history of civilization. It was never really like that before, or since.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: morality on 05/12/2013 17:32:27 MDT Print View

"We did have a period in the US from the victorian era thru the 1950s that has basically been described as a moral anomaly in the history of civilization. It was never really like that before, or since."

What was so different about that time? Crime certainly didn't stop and the list of atrocities is the definition of horrendous.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
morality on 05/12/2013 17:47:30 MDT Print View

dont remeber specifics, thats all I remember from the one sociology class I took in college.

Perhaps, on average people were a little more moral and well behaved in the US

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 18:41:36 MDT Print View

Most of the time Nick lives in a fantasy world.
He is self sufficient. Society provided nothing for him. Do for yourself. Everything he has he earned by working harder. There is no reason to pay into the common good. Etc.

Then something like this happens and he is suddenly all about groups, societal norms, and communal morality.

What a joke.

They left water they couldn't defend. The costs of leaving water in the desert is what a man with a shotgun charges to watch it. Right ?

Either they failed to be self sufficient, in failing to pay the costs of securing the water, or there are real benefits ti having the society values that Nick repeatedly shuns.

People can't live under a rock shunning everyone and expect a better community. If you want the Wild West, pay the man with the gun to protect your stash.

If you want a better society, pull your pants down from your nipples and join in.

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/12/2013 19:01:38 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: This isn't about Balls & Sunshine on 05/12/2013 18:55:35 MDT Print View

Wow! I'm speechless. I particularly liked the big finish on condiment package thieves - really added some weight to your argument.

I hope that was a troll. Otherwise, Some of you are hanging on by a very thin thread. And I DIG that about you!

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 19:05:04 MDT Print View

"Most of the time Nick lives in a fantasy world. "

Cameron, if you go re-read the postings, you will see that Nick said that he remembered the time when all of those good things were normal. He alluded to the fact that so many of those things have now gone to hell. Lots of us remembered the same times of old, but that sure doesn't mean that we live in fantasy now.

On the other hand, there is one of us who fantasizes about the names of others. Go figure.

--B.G.--

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 19:55:31 MDT Print View

Some generations will never take any of their responsibility for why things have gone to hell.

A society that puts short term profit first, profit second, and criticizing the unprofitable as lazy second class citizens has consequences.

Why shouldn't someone steal water in a culture based on maximizing short term personal gain ?

--G.B.--

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 20:49:59 MDT Print View

"It's about the demise of civilization..."

Way overblowing this

I remember a time when black people were hung because they looked at a white woman and women couldn't vote. Millions of ethnic people in Europe killed. etc.

Just recently we had a war for political reasons that killed 100,000s of people

Unfortunate that Balls and Sunshine got ripped off but not the demise of civilization

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 21:02:04 MDT Print View

"It's about the demise of civilization..."


I see Nick's point. Yes, there have been atrocities throughout the ages, but I think his point is that as a society, there is a slow degradation of morals on a mundane, everyday level that when looked at from afar and well into the future, is the core reason that the human race is destined to either destroy itself, or get so close to doing so that it absolutely forces a reformation of world society.

A little doomsday-ish, but hey, I'm not terribly optimistic on the ultimate future of the human race in general either.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 21:52:25 MDT Print View

yeah, right, people used to leave their doors unlocked, very romantic...

lots of cases in history where someone had some food or water cached, someone else came along and stole it knowing that it risked the cacher...

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/13/2013 10:04:58 MDT Print View

The only reason the good old days were the good old days is that the documentation is so poor. For example today when a Water Cache is stolen thousands of people find out instead of 10 or 20. The same goes with all crime.

In the US and Canada
Violent Crime has decreased on a per Capita basis since the 70's
Youth Crime has decreased.
People are less prejiduiced against races, sexes and sexual orientation.
The Abuse of children has been significantly reduced and is better reported.

By any statistical measure we are all better off now than 30, 50 or 200 years ago. The good ol' days myth has been going on since Socretes when he became the first attributed person to say that kids today were lazy and society is declining. Adults have always looked back fondly on the world they were raised in and with fear with the new way things are done.

The world is becoming a better place and all you need to do to realize that is turn off the TV and Internet News sites and live in the world instead of watching it filtered through fear mongering politicos.

Edited by GregF on 05/13/2013 10:05:52 MDT.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
history on 05/13/2013 19:12:03 MDT Print View

people are an empty slate

there is no right or wrong, only what you have been taught

history shows this definitively

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
sufrage on 05/13/2013 21:40:22 MDT Print View

Jerry, you remember when women couldn't vote? How old are you?!?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/13/2013 23:46:21 MDT Print View

While i generally agree with Greg F. in the above, i would also note that while humanity does seem to becoming more positive as a general trend, what's interesting to me is the observation of the growing polarization that seems to be also increasing.

In a very simple sense, the already negative/non constructive persons seem to be getting more so, but the innately and more tipped to the positive (the majority) seem to be getting more positive, and the more clashing and friction between the two. Having briefly watched a show called Dark Minds today and seeing Greg's F. post reminded me of this subject. There have always been sick, imbalanced and perhaps even "evil" people and acts out there, but i doubt there were ever in ancient times the percentage amount of say serial killers and torturers like there is in our modern times.

It's almost like there is a unseen, and unspoken war of influence trickling down from the cosmic/spiritual levels, and it's intensifying. That predominately negative minority, unfortunately, tends to occupy the most materially influential niches of society and strives very hard to influence the rest of us via media, eduction, politics, legal, etc means. It is not surprising since these types innately gravitate to having enormous "wealth" and positions of power over others. So we are being negatively brain washed like never before, which is having a definite effect on the masses (these symptoms show up in things like collective facebook narcissism), but more and more are arising that are strong and centered enough in spirit to more completely break way from same. Hence there is a strong resistance building up, and people world wide are getting fed up and disillusioned with the broken, imbalanced, selfish, and overly materialistic ways of the system and those with the real material power (the ones with the most material wealth, of course).

I particularly notice this polarization effect in the U.S. There is a lot of intense and bright Light here, and also a lot of unimaginable, dark, dark darkness.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/13/2013 23:58:04 MDT Print View

More people today so more serial killers

More broadly transmitted information so we know more about any serial killers

Polarization is partially created by people that want to control things. If the leaders can get us common people arguing with each other we will be distracted. Or, at least they're taking advantage of the situation.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/14/2013 00:16:51 MDT Print View

I see what you mean Jerry, and yes in a more narrow sense that's definitely true, like in politics--democrats vs republicans, liberals vs conservatives or right wingers, etc. I think this 2 dimensional and polarized mind set is fostered to some extent for purposes of control. Divide and conquer strategy.

But the polarization that i was talking about, is much more fundamental than that. It's about basic ethics and morals independent of religious or spiritual beliefs or lack of same. How people are, their very nature and character. I just see a trend to the predominantly positive (loving, constructive, universally helpful, full of courage, etc) becoming more intensely so, and the predominately negative (selfish, fear filled, uncaring, lacking in empathy and sense of connectedness to others) becoming more intensely so.

There are the "greys" that are more in the middle (always have been and probably always will be), but it use to be they were the vast, vast majority and others in the more ultra, polarized categories were pretty rare. While they are still the majority, it's my observation that they are becoming less so by the year--more and more are starting to move into the more "ultra" categories whether positive or negative.

It's hard to put these observations and hunches and feelings into words though. Personally, i see a future wherein some more Jesus types become more common, and eventually a race of Jesus's. (I don't have or belong to a religion btw, but have much respect for this particular teacher and example).

Benjamin Brillat
(brillb) - F

Locale: Northeast USA
Water Caching? on 05/15/2013 11:12:18 MDT Print View

So I've read this thread with interest, but having grown up in the Northeast the whole concept of "Water Caching" is entirely unfamiliar to me. Can someone explain exactly how this works? I understand obviously hiking a stretch where you don't expect to find water, but how did you get your water cache there in the first place? People talked about hiding it so that you can get it later... but did you drive it there? Did you do a series of small day hikes over the month before your big hike from nearby roads with the express purpose of burying water jugs?

Also, some people said that if they were dying they would drink the water and then replace it. How wold that work? Are these jugs large? I'm not sure how much water they hold but at 8lbs/gal water is extremely heavy.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Water Caching? on 05/15/2013 11:38:32 MDT Print View

In Balls and Sunshine's case, they had people cache the water for them.

Check out Buck Nelson's Desert Trail Hike (Mexico to Canada). He placed 54 water/food caches.

http://bucktrack.com/Desert_Trail_Thru-Hike.html

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
More on water caching on 05/15/2013 15:18:25 MDT Print View

Last year I followed Boston and Cubby's trail journal as they hiked the American Discovery Trail from east to west. (In the eastern half, they seemed to be thru-hiking from one ice cream parlor to another!) Before the trip, they had driven to Utah and Nevada and set up water caches in the desert, where often there were no water sources for several days. When they got there on their hike, they found the water gone--only empty containers--in most of their caches. To say the least, this was quite upsetting. They left the trail for several weeks while deciding what to do.

When they came back to the trail, they rented a car and drove around to replenish all the caches. However, they soon found several empty containers in the new caches. They gathered up the empty containers and retreated to a motel.

With a little testing, they discovered that on the one-gallon semi-transparent plastic jugs of drinking water bought at the supermarket, the seam across the bottom of the jug developed leaks, sometimes within a week after purchase, allowing the water to leak out. By making fresh caches of more jugs than they needed, they were able to make it through.

I always carry a gallon plastic jug of drinking water jug in my car, and I've found leaks from the bottom seam, too. Of course in my case the only consequence was a moldy floor mat. I now rinse and disinfect organic milk jugs (the sturdier opaque kind) to carry water in my car.

This obviously isn't what happened with Balls and Sunshine, but is definitely a factor to consider for those needing to cache water over a longer period.

BTW, it now appears, by process of elimination, that it was local hikers and not other CDT thru-hikers who were responsible for the theft from Balls and Sunshine. There was, unfortunately, some blaming and then, fortunately, some apologies.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: More on water caching on 05/15/2013 22:19:26 MDT Print View

"BTW, it now appears, by process of elimination, that it was local hikers and not other CDT thru-hikers who were responsible for the theft from Balls and Sunshine. There was, unfortunately, some blaming and then, fortunately, some apologies."

Oopsie!

Does this mean the lynching is called off? :-(