Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!
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Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 10:48:56 MDT Print View

Their water cache in the desert was stolen by other hikers. Despicable.

balls water note

Post from their trail journal here

My thoughts here

Edited to add the picture from their trail journal.

Edited by ngatel on 04/27/2013 10:50:33 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Pretty Low on 04/27/2013 10:58:19 MDT Print View

Pretty low if you ask me. Remember in the Old West when horse stealing was a capital offense?

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Pretty Low on 04/27/2013 11:18:36 MDT Print View

Range wars were fought over water rights.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Pretty Low on 04/27/2013 11:49:23 MDT Print View

You know those ultralight lines we bear bag with? Wonder if it would be possible to do a "neck tie social" using those, the thief and a tree?

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 12:09:12 MDT Print View

If you are going to take water in an emergency, then you had better replace it somehow. Even if that means hauling a ton of water back in or somehow driving to the cache.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 12:13:45 MDT Print View

"If you are going to take water in an emergency, then you had better replace it somehow. Even if that means hauling a ton of water back in or somehow driving to the cache."

And you need to purify it or leave a note about what you did. Anyway, I hope someone figures out who did this and crucifies them either physically or psychologically.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 12:17:28 MDT Print View

I'd like to say I'm surprised, but, unfortunately, I'm not. I also hope karma deals with these cretins in a most unpleasant way.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 12:20:06 MDT Print View

"I also hope karma deals with these cretins in a most unpleasant way."

Doug is always the nice guy, even when he wishes bad things to happen to bad people. So being non-PC, I say, crucify the bastards :)

David Lutz
(davidlutz)

Locale: Bay Area
"Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 04/27/2013 12:41:39 MDT Print View

I performed a sophisticated handwriting analysis and determined the perpetrator was a girl in her late teens to early 20's.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 12:59:28 MDT Print View

I ran a Simple Handwriting Interrogation Tool (SHIT) analysis and came to similar conclusions.

Tim Drescher
(timdcy) - M

Locale: Gore Range
Re: "Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 04/27/2013 13:14:36 MDT Print View

Definitely a chicks handwriting.

Hoot Filsinger
(filsinger) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 13:16:34 MDT Print View

People like this have the ability to justify anything they want. Hit and run without a care. The trail has it own strict code maybe a posse is in order.

M G
(drown) - F - MLife

Locale: Shenandoah
My guess is on 04/27/2013 14:45:38 MDT Print View

A millenial with a typical sense of entitlement.

Fitz Travels
(fitztravels)
Yup on 04/27/2013 15:03:03 MDT Print View

Exactly one week before i was headed out to New England to do some vagabonding/hiking this past October, someone swiped my crap at my basecamp. Stole over 1300 of gear, luckily they left my 230$ arctyres mittens, probably didnt realize how expensive they were. I checked out all the homeless camps around the area, and didnt find anything. I think it was a hunter.

Im actually, now, glad it happened. Im going to be abke to shave around 7 pounds now off my new gear this summer for my trip.

By the way, my zero degree REI Radiant was taken, and this January was the coldest in our states history. Amazingly i got by on a 45 degree MH phantom and a 30 degree REI Kindercone that i used as an overbag. I took that down to 0 plenty of nights, not comfortably of course, but not that bad either.

They call it "getting raped" when your crap gets swipped. I dont mind my crap getting stolen in the summer when im working a lot and its warm, but boy, that really came at a bad time this past year. I was broke and a week later we had 5 degree nights for 4 weeks.

In the winter, i carry my crap with me now. I hate being stereotyped in town, but i like keep my crap more

Edited by fitztravels on 04/27/2013 15:04:27 MDT.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: My guess is on 04/27/2013 15:13:17 MDT Print View

I would LOVE to hear these people try to justify their actions. Unfortunately, they'd probably get slapped the hell up before finishing their first sentence.


"So why'd you take the water?"

----"Well, like, we were really totally thirsty and *!!SMACK!!*.......

"Sorry. Needed stress relief."



What's also pretty scary is if they do this kind of stuff on a trail, think about what kind of people they are day in and day out. I know its hard (ok, impossible) to make a complete judgment on a person without meeting them, but sometimes, just sometimes...

Edited by T.L. on 04/27/2013 15:17:42 MDT.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
13alls on 04/27/2013 15:21:08 MDT Print View

I'd probably look for another water source before I'd steal from someone named 'Balls'...

And if it were truly an emergency situation, I'd take some water too. How much was taken?

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: 13alls on 04/27/2013 15:30:32 MDT Print View

I'd probably look for another water source before I'd steal from ANYONE.

And as someone else mentioned, if I TRULY had an emergency and needed water NOW, I'd make sure what I took was replenished forthwith.

I've cached water before and on the jugs I've written: "This water has been cached for hikers that are depending on it for their health and safety. Please leave undisturbed. Taking it puts their lives in danger."

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re 13alla on 04/27/2013 15:43:16 MDT Print View

My guess is this person(s) wasn't planning ahead. Most people don't PLAN on stealing other people's water caches. Not just because its wrong, it certainly is. Aside from that who says "I'm going to hike through a desert without enough water and hope that other people leave some for me to steal." They probably weren't planning ahead and suddenly found themselves in a dry place with no water.
Hopefully they won't be on the trail long, if they are word will likely get around and they will be mighty unpopular.

Tom Clark
(TomClark) - MLife

Locale: East Coast
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/27/2013 16:20:51 MDT Print View

Agreed!

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off - How did they stash it? on 04/28/2013 13:55:10 MDT Print View

How did B&S stash their water? Was it hidden in some way or visible to other hikers?

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 04/28/2013 14:41:44 MDT Print View

That is pretty despicable. Did the thief somehow think that the person who cached the water would not be thirsty and depending on it? I agree that the least they could have done was replenished it forthwith.

Brad Fisher
(wufpackfn)

Locale: NC/TN/VA Mountains
Re: "Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 04/29/2013 20:49:48 MDT Print View

My idea. Some local BPL hiker find the next dry section where a cache is needed. Plant another cache and label "Balls" as the other. However this time piss in the cache and let's see if we can get the to steal again. Just saying.

Brad

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: "Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 04/29/2013 21:11:04 MDT Print View

Personally, I would never drink from a container labeled "Balls"

BER ---
(BER) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Balls on 04/30/2013 07:05:29 MDT Print View

Unconscionable. If you found yourself in dire need, one would hope you'd think to replace the water immediately so as not to cause the owner to be in the same predicament you found yourself in. Sad, but indicative of the general mindset of our society, or at least a growing portion of it.

Edited by BER on 04/30/2013 07:08:06 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 08:52:07 MDT Print View

who among you who cast all these stones would not drink someone else's water if dieing of thirst ?

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 09:08:20 MDT Print View

As I stated before, if I truly was in danger and needed the water, I'd drink it. But have it replaced forthwith.

In this particular case, it appears that water sources were no more than a half dozen miles away. It was irresponsible of whomever took the water to not be better prepared. In the event THEY were in a true emergency, then so be it, but I somehow doubt it.

I would like to know the timeline between when the water was taken and when Balls found the empty containers.

Andrew Zajac
(AZajac)

Locale: South West
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 09:18:48 MDT Print View

I had that initial sentiment as well, but changed my mind after thinking about it a little more. If I were at risk of death and found a water cache that saved my life I would no doubt drink the water. However, if I also had the tools to write a note to the owner I would be much more appreciative and leave a better note than 'sorry, I needed water.' It just doesn't sound very grateful like someone at death's door would have been. The drinker obviously had a permanent marker. A note stating when and how they plan to replace the water would have been the right thing to do as well as to actually do it and maybe leave balls and sunshine something extra as a token of their appreciation. I am glad that the thief got water if he/she truly needed it, but they handled the situation very poorly and potentially endangered the lives of others. I still think that what the thief did was really irresponsible and despicable.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 09:30:31 MDT Print View

"who among you who cast all these stones would not drink someone else's water if dieing of thirst ?"

Not sure if you're just being a devil's advocate this morning, but did you read Balls' entry linked to in the first post? The people who stole the water had only been hiking for 7 miles that day, and only had 5 more miles to go before their next water source. And they didn't just steal a little, they stole a lot. They deserve all the derision they're getting, IMO. From Balls' journal:

"Some cowards with only 7 miles in for the day and 5 more to their next water, stole our marked cache and left us to carry empty jugs potentially 30 more miles to our next water on the Black Mountain Route. They even left a note, indicating they knew they wronged us. Most all CDT thru's hike the Ley route here to avoid the long waterless stretches. They were unwilling to brave the long waterless stretches, But had no problem sending us out there waterless. It was not one person, it was many. Because they stole a lot of water."

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 09:43:19 MDT Print View

Michael Popov (a great athlete) died on a 6 mile desert run.
it not about the miles, its about the condtions of the moment.

but yes, I am being a devil's advocate to create a little balance and restore some rationality to a lynch mob situation.

Chris S
(csteutterman) - F

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 09:58:54 MDT Print View

According to the trail journal, there was a lot of water and they took all of it, leaving them with empty jugs. They could have left a simple note mentioning their intent to replace it. The note they left might as well have said, "F U, I'm thirsty"

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Satan I rebuke thee! on 04/30/2013 10:03:31 MDT Print View

Tongue in cheek of course:)

I think a few responses on this thread were along the lines of what I would expect if it were me who left that cache there. I wouldn't want someone to die but I would expect for them to leave a note on when they expect to return with a resupply and I would expect for that to be their first priority. If they need to cut their hike/vacation short to make things right then so be it. Seems reasonable to me and hardly a lynch mob.

Back to the present case... these people behaved horribly and should be ashamed. I live in the desert (yes Washington has one) and fully appreciate that water is life. What these people essentially did was make a decision that their life and wellbeing was more important than that of a stranger; they placed the lives of Balls and Sunshine in danger with seeming indifference.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 10:48:02 MDT Print View

I'm been watching this thread for a while but I still can't get my mind around someone taking someones cached water, much less only 5 miles from another source. I can't get my head around a hiker with ANY kind of experience doing this, so I imagine it to be someone too inexperienced as well as selfish to know better. Still, from the details of the location it sounds like this might not have been the case. << Head explodes>> ...

Still, all cachers worry (or should) about this issue *all* the time. If a pre-placed water supply is life or death I'm not sure how it got found so casually. What ever happened to the long and noble tradition of hiding cashes - or at least placing them where no one passing by will be casually tempted? IMHO, you should always assume the worst case scenario in spite of logic as to location - that someone hiking by doesn't know any better. We have a very tight knit, but actually very small community here where we all know the rules, and are all outraged. But I don't think it should be obvious that any cache lying out in the open is not at extreme risk, especially if "marked" only means the word "BALLS" printed on the cache.

In addition to hiding - away from the trail and inside a bush somewhere, but especially paranoid folks have been known to bury cashes of water - it seems like a note such as the following should be placed (I always thought is was pro forma in such cases):

"This water was placed here by Balls and his daughter who will be passing this way on a thru hike some time near the end of April 2013. Please do not take any of it as they are *depending* on it to be here for their safety."

Yes, I know it is like talking to infants, and that it should not be necessary. But some idiot who saw water on the side of the trail with only the word "BALLS" on the bottle might need it spelled out. As I said, assume the worst case scenario. Wars have been started for misunderstood inter-tribal conventions. Assume complete novices as worst case scenario. By writing the note (who the hell carries a sharpie with them on the trail LOL) the thieves showed they were unsure, and these particular thieves might have wavered if it has been spelled out in full idiot-proof form. Also, though I would NEVER actually advocate such explicit instructions (better not to give then an easy excuse they could later renege on), the date and urgency written on the bottle might have further encouraged the violator to come back with a replacement and a nice gift.

In this case I don't know if the old-school "conventional" hiding part or message part was in fact followed in this case (it is not mentioned in the original blog post), but I'd be a lot more outraged if I knew it was. Only then would I get out my flaming brand and pitchfork.

Edited by millonas on 04/30/2013 11:05:29 MDT.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 11:01:18 MDT Print View

"....with only 7 miles in for the day and 5 more to their next water,....."


I won't debate how Balls knew how far the perpetrators had come that day, but I will say that they might not have had any idea that another source was only five miles ahead.

This is why I always bury my cache if possible, or at least put it out of sight of anyone on the trail, and marked to indicate it was placed there for (my name) and expected date of retrieval.

In the event I don't retrieve it by that date, I can not complain if someone takes it after that date.

Courtesy demands that if I place a cache that I do not retrieve as planned, I must return at the earliest possible date and remove it.

Edited by wandering_bob on 04/30/2013 11:12:27 MDT.

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! Mike M. on 04/30/2013 11:07:26 MDT Print View

Mike M.
Nice post.

I never stashed water. But if I were to do so, I would bury it away from a trail and keep notes/photo(?) of where I buried it - keep it simple - north 30' of ?

Good idea of the note - even if buried.

No one seems to know if BALLS hid the water.

It appears he used gallon jugs which should be buried. In some parts of the country there are animals that like to chew on plastic. In some places animals chew on ignition wires. I don't know the situation where BALLS was hiking.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off - How did they stash it? on 04/30/2013 11:32:42 MDT Print View

But still. If it was free for the taking, I'm sure it would have had something along the line of "for use by whomever needs this."
Duane

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off - How did they stash it? on 04/30/2013 11:52:03 MDT Print View

Sure. That is the proper logic. Also why *we* would never take it. But don't assume other people will think that.

They might even have thought the lack of an explicit note means it is up for grabs. The situation can be even more complicated - trail angels on the PCT (don't know if this is true on the CDT yet) are known to put out water for people on the desert stretches. I'm sure they usually mark them with a message such as the one you mention, like "use it if you need it". Still, some of these hikers may have just heard about this practice filtered 2nd or 3rd hand, or even interpreted this to mean they could count on finding water placed in this way. The note they left might have meant to them only "sorry to take the public water, but we did indeed need it at the time, so it was OK". Maybe they thought "BALLS" was the trail angel. Maybe they thought the reason it was left out in the open was that BALLS had already passed through and took what he needed leaving the rest up for grabs. OK, I know totally stupid, but unfortunately not completely unbelievable.

Again, not saying it was not totally ignorant, just that you shouldn't assume other will not act that way, and take precautions.

I'm wondering how writing something like "NOT drinkable, POISON, this water is laced with an experimental neurotoxin that is being used in an experiment by researchers in the surrounding area" would effect the behavior of people if they were out of water in the desert. Sounds like the makings of a PhD thesis in Psychology. Explicit note here - "This idea for a PhD thesis up for grabs. Use it if you need it."

Edited by millonas on 04/30/2013 12:01:17 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 11:57:48 MDT Print View

Well someone should have left half at least.

Whoever placed the cache, if vehicle accessible, should have left extra, just in case.

Sucks for sure.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Poison on 04/30/2013 11:59:45 MDT Print View

There was a garden beyond the biology department where my dad used to teach. The sign on the tomatoes read something like "Radioactive Growing Experiment Not Safe to Eat."

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 04/30/2013 12:05:38 MDT Print View

"but yes, I am being a devil's advocate to create a little balance and restore some rationality to a lynch mob situation."

Meh, balance is overrated.....

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT on 04/30/2013 12:50:55 MDT Print View

Timeline (per the online journals):
Cache placed by their friend Beacon: April 24
Cache discovered missing by Balls and Sunshine: April 26

The word is already out among CDT hikers (I've seen it in several other online journals), so it shouldn't take long to discover who was there during that 48 hour (or less) stretch. The thieves will find themselves shunned by other hikers and any trail angels for the rest of the trip. The fact that they are such poor planners that they were out of water after only 5 miles means they probably won't get much farther.

Water is a matter of life and death out in the desert, and taking someone else's cache is unconscionable. Balls and Sunshine were heading out (via a less well-used version of the trail) for a 30 mile dry stretch.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT on 04/30/2013 13:10:28 MDT Print View

"Cache placed by their friend Beacon: April 24
Cache discovered missing by Balls and Sunshine: April 26"

Wow that was quick! Are we sure they were thru hikers?

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 04/30/2013 13:40:12 MDT Print View

Forgive my ignorance on thru-hiking, but is the hiking scene on the CDT so familiar there that it will really be easy to figure out who did this and then shame them? I wouldn't think anyone would brag about raiding someone's water stash and it'd be kind of hard to prove unless you saw them do it or they confessed or bragged about it.

Note, I'm not defending them. I think what they did was low and unacceptable.

Kevin Buggie
(kbuggie) - M

Locale: NW New Mexico
sketchy locale for a unhidden cache on 04/30/2013 14:16:41 MDT Print View

The location mentioned in Balls trail journal is an area with med-high use by day hikers, bikers, tweekers, etc... in that community. Anyone could be thirsty... but other thru-hikers?!? I once found wire stretched chest high across a blind turn in the trail about 100 yards south of that intersection on the CDT (local conflict with MTB riders). Hide your stuff!

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT on 04/30/2013 14:17:24 MDT Print View

As I understand it, that's not an area of the New Mexico desert where anyone except thru or section hikers would be hiking through--it's not a scenic area where weekenders might be (it wasn't the weekend, either). Once they get into northern New Mexico and Colorado, there will be lots more people. The one area that will again be sparse of hiker traffic is the section through Wyoming's Red Desert/Great Divide Basin.

Only a small number of people hike the CDT--maybe 30-40 per year--and they all pretty much know each other (very few people do this trail as their first hike because it's the most difficult) and also get to hear of each other from other hikers and the relatively few trail angels along the way.

Maybe my attitude is colored by growing up in Wyoming, but caches were always considered sacred.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT on 04/30/2013 14:34:00 MDT Print View

"Maybe my attitude is colored by growing up in Wyoming, but caches were always considered sacred"

No, any property that is not yours should be left where it is unless one is going to attempt to locate and return it to the owner. If you take something for your own use, knowing someone needs it, you are stealing. Of course, trash excepted.

Thru-hiker(s) or not, the thief or thieves knew they did something wrong -- THEY LEFT A NOTE THAT SAID, "Sorry." They know they are scum bags because they did not replace what they stole. Sorry I have NO sympathy for these kinds of people.

In most places, it is not acceptable to be digging big holes and stashing water/food. The acceptable practice is to hide it with rocks or similar. On long trails, in deserts with no water, trail angels sometimes leave large amounts of water with a SIGN that it is for anyone who needs it. I do find these caches to be an eyesore.

Kevin Buggie
(kbuggie) - M

Locale: NW New Mexico
high use areas on 04/30/2013 14:37:14 MDT Print View

@Mary
Your right, caches are sacred, but many day users in that area just north of Silver City may not understand the rationale or needs of thru hiking. The area in a 2-mile radius around that location probably gets 30-40 trail/forest users a day. Its kinda scenic too, by our humble NM standards: PJ and ponderosa landscape;)

Andrew Zajac
(AZajac)

Locale: South West
CDT thoughts on 04/30/2013 14:42:05 MDT Print View

My girlfriend's mom is a trail crew foreman in charge of creating the portion of the CDT that goes through the Gila National Forest. She says quite a few ranchers, private land owners, and ATVers resent the trail and they occasionally steal her signs and sabotage new trail going in. Could this be the work of pissed off non-hikers trying to prevent the CDT from happening?

edited to include ATVers

Edited by AZajac on 04/30/2013 14:45:08 MDT.

Donna C
(leadfoot) - M

Locale: Middle Virginia
Re: CDT thoughts on 05/03/2013 10:16:31 MDT Print View

How many CDT thru hikers carry Sharpies? Is this a common writing item that is used?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: CDT thoughts on 05/03/2013 13:11:12 MDT Print View

"How many CDT thru hikers carry Sharpies? Is this a common writing item that is used?"

Some thru hikers using them to make signs for hitchhiking. Of course we don't know if a thru hiker took the water.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: CDT thoughts on 05/03/2013 13:32:51 MDT Print View

Could be saboteurs but the Gila is more dry than I've ever seen it at this time, so it could be other hikers or long distance mountain bikers. I did a Gila post trip report several weeks ago reporting the mesas I used to camp on had running springs and creeks in April several years ago. They have now dried up into desert-like sand by March (still backpackable btw, just carry your water from Fork to Fork).

The FS has rerouted trails to avoid any changes in public access via private land but I'm not certain of the situation in the northern GIla (my access point is the southern TH). After shutting the entire wilderness down last summer in response to the Whitewater fire, they reopened it for hunting season -- so not sure what any fuss is about from the ranchers or outfitters. "Sorry dude, your forest is turning into desert ... "

ed: wc/add

Edited by hknewman on 05/03/2013 13:35:20 MDT.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/03/2013 13:55:00 MDT Print View


Wow. What a lame note for such a potentially serious act. It's like saying, "I casually condemn you to death."

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Pete Staehling
(staehpj1) - F
Water on 05/03/2013 17:25:10 MDT Print View

I agree that robbing someones cache is really bad form. Taking all of it is worse, even despicable. Do we know that they took it all? In a real emergency, I'd forgive someone taking some water, but not taking it all.

I do wonder about all of the "condemning to death" talk. It is only 5 miles to the next water for the thief so they didn't need it, but Balls an Sunshine are going to die without it? It seems like folks like being a little overly dramatic.

Note that I am not condoning the theft, just questioning the hyperbole.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Water on 05/03/2013 18:26:50 MDT Print View

What have I learned from this account?

Don't leave a vital resource (water in the drought stricken desert!) to the mercy of the elements or chance. Also, don't expect people to care about whatever journey you may be on. No matter how important your trip may be to you there are those who neither understand or give a rat's ass about your well being, especially in remote and severed areas like southern NM. Should they?

Thru hiker culture doesnt permeate the southern NM region like that found along the AT and PCT, so plan accordingly and have a Plan B.

Kevin Buggie
(kbuggie) - M

Locale: NW New Mexico
change course...? on 05/03/2013 19:46:39 MDT Print View

The conclusion to this thread will be enlightening.... but in the context of being forced to push a long water-poor route in the most drought affected state in the country, should or could (later resupply locations) they have diverted/rerouted to the closer water source?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: change course...? on 05/03/2013 20:54:15 MDT Print View

They are trying to hike the "official" CDT. They don't want to divert from it at all.

In 2011, when Sunshine was 10, they did the PCT. That year the Sierras had one of the highest snow packs in history. A lot of thru hikers skipped the Sierras and came back later to finish it. Balls and Sunshine hiked through it, they didn't want to "cheat" the trail. Don't worry, Balls protects her and doesn't take unnecessary risks.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Water on 05/03/2013 22:13:12 MDT Print View

"I do wonder about all of the "condemning to death" talk. It is only 5 miles to the next water for the thief so they didn't need it, but Balls an Sunshine are going to die without it? It seems like folks like being a little overly dramatic."

+1 on that brother! I been finding myself disturbed by some of the tone here as much as the act itself. As you rightly point out, there was never any actual threat to their lives in this case. They could have themselves gone in the (albeit unplanned) direction they said they knew the others had gone, where there was a known water supply, then come back. I'm sure it would be a maddening detour, but not life-threatening - a 1/2 day delay for them. Also, as a bonus, they might have found the perpetrators and given them a piece of their minds.

More to the point I don't think it is at all obvious the mind-set or intent of the perpetrators, in spite of how sure many here seem to be, and I'm disturbed by all the repetition of how despicable and lowest-of-the-low they are. They did a bad thing, but I'd prefer to look on it as a mixture of ignorance and selfish narrow-sightedness rather than a bald-faced strike at all that is holy, at least until we know more. Whoever it was definitely deserves an education on this issue, but I'm not sure it would make the world a better place, or even the CDT a safer place if anyone out there that found them went straight to the yelling, threatening and shunning phase, as it seems many here would be more than willing to do, rather than just talk to them first, find out what they thought there were doing, and if they really even knew how potentially disruptive and even dangerous what they did could have been.

Edited by millonas on 05/03/2013 22:19:28 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Water on 05/03/2013 22:32:25 MDT Print View

Balls pointed out later they where not actually in danger because they had other options. But whoever stole the water didn't know that. For all they knew Balls and Sunshine might have stumbled in too dehydrated to go farther. If they'd really been suffering they could have drank some left a note and got to the source 5 miles away. The fact they took it all indicates to me they weren't in an emergency they just didn't care.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
water on 05/05/2013 17:40:46 MDT Print View

His latest post indicates they know who did it:


A group of 5 hiker that left Silver City the same day as they did.

Edited by livingontheroad on 05/05/2013 17:41:35 MDT.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: water on 05/05/2013 23:43:52 MDT Print View

Sounds like Beacon left them water only an hour or so before they were to pass through.

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=411962

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: water on 05/09/2013 00:10:38 MDT Print View

OK, if it was not idiot day hikers and in fact other thru-hikers then you officially have my permission to string'em up. LOL

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Re: water on 05/09/2013 10:00:45 MDT Print View

in one of his posts this week he says they have a pretty good idea about which group it was that left a bit before them.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 05/09/2013 11:57:52 MDT Print View

I'd love to see any followup, such as if he confronted them and what they said. They definitely need an education.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
"Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 05/09/2013 12:59:46 MDT Print View

Even IF Balls is correct in his ID, a five to one confrontation is not apt to work out well for him.

I would suggest that it if he is prepared and able to prove it in court should a libel suit be filed, it would be better to publicly identify the perpetrators publically on all of the CDT forums and let nature take its course. I doubt they'll be welcomed by any trail angels or other hikers.

Edited by wandering_bob on 05/09/2013 13:02:59 MDT.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
ID on 05/09/2013 13:28:45 MDT Print View

Didn't he pretty much identify them. His journals talks of five hikers who were in town t the same time, gives out the names. I doubt there are too many groups of five hikers going through at the same time.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: "Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 05/09/2013 13:41:24 MDT Print View

Court? Libel suit?

Are you kidding me?!


Move on. I'm sure they have. This is all really petty and self important.

They didn't die, nor did the past transgression bring about an untimely end to their hike.

Some grace here would go far. The last thing the outdoor community needs is another divisive point of argument. There's already this "day hiker" vs. "thru hiker" mentality creeping into the thread, as if either should be shown preference.

Walk lightly, cause we are all visitors and stewards at best.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: "Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 05/09/2013 13:57:38 MDT Print View

+1 Eugene.

Nuff Said.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Re: "Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!!" on 05/09/2013 14:41:49 MDT Print View

Knowing their usual hiking speed they will probably pass the group and be done with them soon enough and can either tell their story to people they meet or not.

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
Sometimes people "know" who stole their stuff, and they're wrong on 05/09/2013 15:50:40 MDT Print View

I'm uncomfortable with any "lynch those other hikers" mentality when, as far as I can tell, we don't even know it WAS other hikers. Balls wrote in his journal "While we hike the Gila, Beacon is going to cache food and water along our next section of CDT which is known to be dry including a 60 waterless stretch."

If someone wanted to mess with a hiker, seems like it would be pretty easy to check for water caches at each road crossing along the next stretch, then take any visible water and leave a note making it seem like it "had to be those other hikers."

I don't know that that's what happened. On the other hand I don't think we can be reasonably sure who DID take the water, and why. So while taking the water was a very bad thing to do regardless, I don't think anyone should insinuate that it was fellow hikers. It's a very small community out there and a rush to judgment might smear some very good people's reputations.

A good policy for caches is "out of sight, out of mind." At least Balls had wisely planned so they weren't down to their last option, depending on a single cache for their lives.

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Shame on 05/09/2013 16:16:49 MDT Print View

I'm with Eugene.

Who knows what happened and why. This thread is kinda arm-chair quarterbacking without a good view of the field. Even Balls seems loathe to condemn without proof, and he was the one wronged.

I know most of that group of 5 from the PCT last year and a few of them are contributing BPL members here. There are a few really cool cats among that group that would never disrespect thru-hiker code unless in dire circumstances. Maybe we should put down the pitchforks and chill till the facts are in focus.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/09/2013 16:25:01 MDT Print View

Can't we compromise ? Chop off their right hand now, and later brand them across the forehead with a warning sign ?

In the old days, justice was swifter than it is now. I'm not saying it was right, but there was a sense of satisfaction in doing something that eased the frustration.

Just to save time, and not run up his post count, I'll just put it in my post.

I see the identity thief is back.
--B.G.--

If people carried ultra light pitchforks and torches, this might be over by now.

--G.B.--

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/09/2013 17:12:53 MDT Print View

"If people carried ultra light pitchforks and torches, this might be over by now. "

My UL pitchfork is here somewhere under all this crap. My heavyweight one is in the garage where I can find it, but I would never want to let anyone see me carrying such a heavyweight item. Its titanium or bust for me on all witch hunts from here on out.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/09/2013 17:26:28 MDT Print View

Could an UL pitchfork have dual use as an ice axe? Or a weenie roaster? Or a trekking pole? Or a bear deterrent instrument? Or a cathode digger? Hmm, I think you may be on to something.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Pitchforks on 05/09/2013 17:37:32 MDT Print View

I say just "string um up" with a bear bag rope. Much lighter then a titanium pitchfork. Worked for cattle rustlers.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/09/2013 17:46:59 MDT Print View

carbon fiber handled Ti pitchfork with swappable ends for a CF packraft paddle or spear tip for those who think Tenkara is too damn peaceful ;)

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Re Re Balls and Sunshine Ripped-oof on the CDT! on 05/09/2013 18:14:30 MDT Print View

"carbon fiber handled Ti pitchfork with swappable ends for a CF packraft paddle or spear tip"

I like it Jake.

Titanium torches with removable handles that turn into alcohol burning stoves.

While we're at it titanium six shooters with carbon fiber handles and a cuben fiber cartridge belt for Balls to wear. With titanium bullets.

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
Oh, the horror... on 05/09/2013 19:08:56 MDT Print View

You know in the movie where the senseless mob chases the poor, well-intentioned, mis-understood monster?

BPL has assembled a mob of Bob Grosses. Incredibly well equipped Bob Grosses with violent intentions.

Be afraid.

Edited by cfrey.0 on 05/09/2013 19:10:31 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Oh, the horror... on 05/09/2013 21:02:45 MDT Print View

I like where your heads are at on this, folks! My philosophy of life is that people who are too busy with DIY projects for UL lynch mob gear are much less likely to actually form a real lynch mob!

Edited by millonas on 05/09/2013 21:04:39 MDT.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
the real question on 05/12/2013 15:15:15 MDT Print View

do we use triptease or z-line?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
This isn't about Balls & Sunshine on 05/12/2013 15:42:11 MDT Print View

It's about the demise of civilization; about a society that has lost it's moral compass; about people who feel their needs supercede ethics and personal property; about people who feel no responsibility for their actions; about people who don't prepare, because "someone" will take care of them.

I remember a time when people didn't have to lock their homes or cars; a time you could park your bike in a rack witout a lock and it would be their when you returned; a time when store goods didn't have anti-theft packaging and devices; a time when shoplifting was unheard of; a time when people gave back money if a cashier accidentally gave them the wrong change; a time when restaraunt customers only used the condiments to season their food -- not take extra home; a time when people respected others and their property.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: This isn't about Balls & Sunshine on 05/12/2013 16:17:26 MDT Print View

It's about the demise of civilization; about a society that has lost it's moral compass; ... I remember a time when people didn't have to lock their homes or cars; a time you could park your bike in a rack witout a lock and it would be their when you returned

+1

Indeed, that collapse has made it's way into many of our public and private institutions as well as into our collective thinking.

But that might not be evenly distributed. In 2005 I spent several days in Finland (large city and small town settings). I very much enjoyed seeing how many people used bikes for transportation and was positively amazed to see that only about 10% of parked bikes were locked.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
morality on 05/12/2013 17:11:39 MDT Print View

Im not sure society was ever the rosy way "the good old days" are remembered or portrayed. There have always been plenty of bad elements, from the dawn of recorded history to the present.

We did have a period in the US from the victorian era thru the 1950s that has basically been described as a moral anomaly in the history of civilization. It was never really like that before, or since.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: morality on 05/12/2013 17:32:27 MDT Print View

"We did have a period in the US from the victorian era thru the 1950s that has basically been described as a moral anomaly in the history of civilization. It was never really like that before, or since."

What was so different about that time? Crime certainly didn't stop and the list of atrocities is the definition of horrendous.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
morality on 05/12/2013 17:47:30 MDT Print View

dont remeber specifics, thats all I remember from the one sociology class I took in college.

Perhaps, on average people were a little more moral and well behaved in the US

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 18:41:36 MDT Print View

Most of the time Nick lives in a fantasy world.
He is self sufficient. Society provided nothing for him. Do for yourself. Everything he has he earned by working harder. There is no reason to pay into the common good. Etc.

Then something like this happens and he is suddenly all about groups, societal norms, and communal morality.

What a joke.

They left water they couldn't defend. The costs of leaving water in the desert is what a man with a shotgun charges to watch it. Right ?

Either they failed to be self sufficient, in failing to pay the costs of securing the water, or there are real benefits ti having the society values that Nick repeatedly shuns.

People can't live under a rock shunning everyone and expect a better community. If you want the Wild West, pay the man with the gun to protect your stash.

If you want a better society, pull your pants down from your nipples and join in.

--G.B.--

Edited by redmonk on 05/12/2013 19:01:38 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: This isn't about Balls & Sunshine on 05/12/2013 18:55:35 MDT Print View

Wow! I'm speechless. I particularly liked the big finish on condiment package thieves - really added some weight to your argument.

I hope that was a troll. Otherwise, Some of you are hanging on by a very thin thread. And I DIG that about you!

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 19:05:04 MDT Print View

"Most of the time Nick lives in a fantasy world. "

Cameron, if you go re-read the postings, you will see that Nick said that he remembered the time when all of those good things were normal. He alluded to the fact that so many of those things have now gone to hell. Lots of us remembered the same times of old, but that sure doesn't mean that we live in fantasy now.

On the other hand, there is one of us who fantasizes about the names of others. Go figure.

--B.G.--

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 19:55:31 MDT Print View

Some generations will never take any of their responsibility for why things have gone to hell.

A society that puts short term profit first, profit second, and criticizing the unprofitable as lazy second class citizens has consequences.

Why shouldn't someone steal water in a culture based on maximizing short term personal gain ?

--G.B.--

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 20:49:59 MDT Print View

"It's about the demise of civilization..."

Way overblowing this

I remember a time when black people were hung because they looked at a white woman and women couldn't vote. Millions of ethnic people in Europe killed. etc.

Just recently we had a war for political reasons that killed 100,000s of people

Unfortunate that Balls and Sunshine got ripped off but not the demise of civilization

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 21:02:04 MDT Print View

"It's about the demise of civilization..."


I see Nick's point. Yes, there have been atrocities throughout the ages, but I think his point is that as a society, there is a slow degradation of morals on a mundane, everyday level that when looked at from afar and well into the future, is the core reason that the human race is destined to either destroy itself, or get so close to doing so that it absolutely forces a reformation of world society.

A little doomsday-ish, but hey, I'm not terribly optimistic on the ultimate future of the human race in general either.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Balls and Sunshine Ripped-off on the CDT!! on 05/12/2013 21:52:25 MDT Print View

yeah, right, people used to leave their doors unlocked, very romantic...

lots of cases in history where someone had some food or water cached, someone else came along and stole it knowing that it risked the cacher...

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/13/2013 10:04:58 MDT Print View

The only reason the good old days were the good old days is that the documentation is so poor. For example today when a Water Cache is stolen thousands of people find out instead of 10 or 20. The same goes with all crime.

In the US and Canada
Violent Crime has decreased on a per Capita basis since the 70's
Youth Crime has decreased.
People are less prejiduiced against races, sexes and sexual orientation.
The Abuse of children has been significantly reduced and is better reported.

By any statistical measure we are all better off now than 30, 50 or 200 years ago. The good ol' days myth has been going on since Socretes when he became the first attributed person to say that kids today were lazy and society is declining. Adults have always looked back fondly on the world they were raised in and with fear with the new way things are done.

The world is becoming a better place and all you need to do to realize that is turn off the TV and Internet News sites and live in the world instead of watching it filtered through fear mongering politicos.

Edited by GregF on 05/13/2013 10:05:52 MDT.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
history on 05/13/2013 19:12:03 MDT Print View

people are an empty slate

there is no right or wrong, only what you have been taught

history shows this definitively

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
sufrage on 05/13/2013 21:40:22 MDT Print View

Jerry, you remember when women couldn't vote? How old are you?!?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/13/2013 23:46:21 MDT Print View

While i generally agree with Greg F. in the above, i would also note that while humanity does seem to becoming more positive as a general trend, what's interesting to me is the observation of the growing polarization that seems to be also increasing.

In a very simple sense, the already negative/non constructive persons seem to be getting more so, but the innately and more tipped to the positive (the majority) seem to be getting more positive, and the more clashing and friction between the two. Having briefly watched a show called Dark Minds today and seeing Greg's F. post reminded me of this subject. There have always been sick, imbalanced and perhaps even "evil" people and acts out there, but i doubt there were ever in ancient times the percentage amount of say serial killers and torturers like there is in our modern times.

It's almost like there is a unseen, and unspoken war of influence trickling down from the cosmic/spiritual levels, and it's intensifying. That predominately negative minority, unfortunately, tends to occupy the most materially influential niches of society and strives very hard to influence the rest of us via media, eduction, politics, legal, etc means. It is not surprising since these types innately gravitate to having enormous "wealth" and positions of power over others. So we are being negatively brain washed like never before, which is having a definite effect on the masses (these symptoms show up in things like collective facebook narcissism), but more and more are arising that are strong and centered enough in spirit to more completely break way from same. Hence there is a strong resistance building up, and people world wide are getting fed up and disillusioned with the broken, imbalanced, selfish, and overly materialistic ways of the system and those with the real material power (the ones with the most material wealth, of course).

I particularly notice this polarization effect in the U.S. There is a lot of intense and bright Light here, and also a lot of unimaginable, dark, dark darkness.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/13/2013 23:58:04 MDT Print View

More people today so more serial killers

More broadly transmitted information so we know more about any serial killers

Polarization is partially created by people that want to control things. If the leaders can get us common people arguing with each other we will be distracted. Or, at least they're taking advantage of the situation.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Past Generations just Failed to Broadcast Crime on 05/14/2013 00:16:51 MDT Print View

I see what you mean Jerry, and yes in a more narrow sense that's definitely true, like in politics--democrats vs republicans, liberals vs conservatives or right wingers, etc. I think this 2 dimensional and polarized mind set is fostered to some extent for purposes of control. Divide and conquer strategy.

But the polarization that i was talking about, is much more fundamental than that. It's about basic ethics and morals independent of religious or spiritual beliefs or lack of same. How people are, their very nature and character. I just see a trend to the predominantly positive (loving, constructive, universally helpful, full of courage, etc) becoming more intensely so, and the predominately negative (selfish, fear filled, uncaring, lacking in empathy and sense of connectedness to others) becoming more intensely so.

There are the "greys" that are more in the middle (always have been and probably always will be), but it use to be they were the vast, vast majority and others in the more ultra, polarized categories were pretty rare. While they are still the majority, it's my observation that they are becoming less so by the year--more and more are starting to move into the more "ultra" categories whether positive or negative.

It's hard to put these observations and hunches and feelings into words though. Personally, i see a future wherein some more Jesus types become more common, and eventually a race of Jesus's. (I don't have or belong to a religion btw, but have much respect for this particular teacher and example).

Benjamin Brillat
(brillb) - F

Locale: Northeast USA
Water Caching? on 05/15/2013 11:12:18 MDT Print View

So I've read this thread with interest, but having grown up in the Northeast the whole concept of "Water Caching" is entirely unfamiliar to me. Can someone explain exactly how this works? I understand obviously hiking a stretch where you don't expect to find water, but how did you get your water cache there in the first place? People talked about hiding it so that you can get it later... but did you drive it there? Did you do a series of small day hikes over the month before your big hike from nearby roads with the express purpose of burying water jugs?

Also, some people said that if they were dying they would drink the water and then replace it. How wold that work? Are these jugs large? I'm not sure how much water they hold but at 8lbs/gal water is extremely heavy.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Water Caching? on 05/15/2013 11:38:32 MDT Print View

In Balls and Sunshine's case, they had people cache the water for them.

Check out Buck Nelson's Desert Trail Hike (Mexico to Canada). He placed 54 water/food caches.

http://bucktrack.com/Desert_Trail_Thru-Hike.html

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
More on water caching on 05/15/2013 15:18:25 MDT Print View

Last year I followed Boston and Cubby's trail journal as they hiked the American Discovery Trail from east to west. (In the eastern half, they seemed to be thru-hiking from one ice cream parlor to another!) Before the trip, they had driven to Utah and Nevada and set up water caches in the desert, where often there were no water sources for several days. When they got there on their hike, they found the water gone--only empty containers--in most of their caches. To say the least, this was quite upsetting. They left the trail for several weeks while deciding what to do.

When they came back to the trail, they rented a car and drove around to replenish all the caches. However, they soon found several empty containers in the new caches. They gathered up the empty containers and retreated to a motel.

With a little testing, they discovered that on the one-gallon semi-transparent plastic jugs of drinking water bought at the supermarket, the seam across the bottom of the jug developed leaks, sometimes within a week after purchase, allowing the water to leak out. By making fresh caches of more jugs than they needed, they were able to make it through.

I always carry a gallon plastic jug of drinking water jug in my car, and I've found leaks from the bottom seam, too. Of course in my case the only consequence was a moldy floor mat. I now rinse and disinfect organic milk jugs (the sturdier opaque kind) to carry water in my car.

This obviously isn't what happened with Balls and Sunshine, but is definitely a factor to consider for those needing to cache water over a longer period.

BTW, it now appears, by process of elimination, that it was local hikers and not other CDT thru-hikers who were responsible for the theft from Balls and Sunshine. There was, unfortunately, some blaming and then, fortunately, some apologies.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: More on water caching on 05/15/2013 22:19:26 MDT Print View

"BTW, it now appears, by process of elimination, that it was local hikers and not other CDT thru-hikers who were responsible for the theft from Balls and Sunshine. There was, unfortunately, some blaming and then, fortunately, some apologies."

Oopsie!

Does this mean the lynching is called off? :-(

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: More on water caching on 05/16/2013 09:16:28 MDT Print View

"Does this mean the lynching is called off?"

Hail no! CDT is blood in blood out bro!

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Re: More on water caching on 05/16/2013 19:21:00 MDT Print View

"Does this mean the lynching is called off?"

Hail no! CDT is blood in blood out bro!"


The Dutchman must have a captain! ;) buahahaha

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Crime(s) & Punishment(s) on 05/16/2013 22:35:30 MDT Print View

Been watching the replies to this thread with interest.

As a retired high school teacher (10,11 & 12) I have to say that kids, and therfore the young adults they became, gradually got lazier, more anti-intellectual and more belligerent over my 35 years of teaching.

Yes, crime is down partly due to much more professional police work and better social services to ameloriate poverty. Yes, discrimination of ALL types of minorities is down (except maybe Bushcrafters;). But MORALS?? I kinda think Norman Rockwell would be horrified at the local big city news of today.

Now "Trail Morals" I'd say is generally far above the average of society in general.
Unfortunately Balls and Sunshine likely got screwed by people who are probably not true backpackers but rather "once-in-a-while" hikers who are nearly (well, they DID leave a note) clueless regarding trail etiquette, not to mention common courtesy. We all have seen idiots on the trail. Balls and Sunshine just didn't see these idiots.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Crime(s) & Punishment(s) on 05/17/2013 08:30:20 MDT Print View

I don't know...

"Balls" and "Sunshine" get some water stolen from them and it's suddenly the decline of Western Civilization and Morality?

Don't forget that when Norman Rockwell was painting warm and fuzzy pictures of white people eating turkeys blacks were still getting lynched in the South.

Some "morality" this country used to have.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Crime(s) & Punishment(s) on 05/17/2013 09:55:36 MDT Print View

The "Good ol' Days" syndrome is IMO a natural consequence of aging. I remember feeling that way after my first 5-7 years in the Army. "Boy these kids are out of touch with reality; they'd die if someone took away their PS1 (ok this was a while ago)" & etc. The reality is that I left the service for college just before 9-11 and these young soldiers shouldered a much greater burden in Afghanistan and Iraq than I ever did in my years of service.

I'm still in touch with one of those snot-nosed soldiers. When I met him, my general impression was that he was a club-rat and immature. Since then, he's served 48 months in real combat as a grunt (not a TOC Roach or Fobbit) and is now working in a clinic helping disabled veterans readjust to civilian life.

Are they lazier? No in my opinion and if they are, the parents are certainly culpable.

Are they less ethical? Definitely not. In the '70s, my house was burglarized twice; we were in the house asleep both times. We had serial killers. You had to check your Halloween candy for razor blades and needles. Drugs were as prevalent then as they are now (never hear about PCP anymore though.) Pedophilia has been around since recorded history. My dad shares stories of walking past male prostitutes and heroin dealers on his way to school in Baltimore during the '50s.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Crimes(s) and Punishment(s) on 05/17/2013 10:31:22 MDT Print View

Ian you have a point, I believe Aristotle had "Good old day syndrome" and Solomon mentions it in Ecclesiastes only he was different in that he said (paraphrased) "Do not ask why the old days were better then the present, it is not from wisdom that you ask this." In other words people in his time were looking back on the "Good old days," and he was smart enough to realize it was a fantasy.

So basically we've been longing for the "Good ol' days" as far back as recorded history.

We aren't lynching African Americans, we aren't fighting a Civil War, we aren't going through the Great Depression and Fascists don't rule Europe so things aren't all bad.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re Re Crimes(s) and Punishment(s) on 05/17/2013 11:12:06 MDT Print View

Are you saying 'Happy Days' is fake?

Henry Winkler doesn't kick ass and take names?



Well i did just Wiki 'Fred Rogers' and his stint in the millitary is rumor.


Next youll tell me that Mr Blonde cut off Van Goghs ear.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
AND on 05/17/2013 11:42:03 MDT Print View

Have you seen the 1970s fashions??? Egads. Talk about the bad old days.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: AND on 05/17/2013 11:50:22 MDT Print View

"Have you seen the 1970s fashions??? Egads. Talk about the bad old days."

Whoa! Pump the brakes killer. Nothing says "Ladies... I'm here to party" like bellbottom jeans and a polyester shirt con butterfly collar.

Get with it man!

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
re decline of civilization and morality on 05/17/2013 12:51:06 MDT Print View

***Craig said: "I don't know..."Balls" and "Sunshine" get some water stolen from them and it's suddenly the decline of Western Civilization and Morality?"

-

No- it's a SYMPTOM of the decline in civilization and morality. It's present everywhere. Just read the comments on a news story some time and read how rude people are to each other just because they can be. The more disconnected we become as a society due to all our technology, the worse it gets.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
so much BPLing fun on 05/17/2013 15:31:16 MDT Print View

witch hunts, lynch mobs, stealing condiments, the decline of civilization ...

say it aint so ;)

BPLers lynch mobs get so worked with no real evidence of who did what ....

parallels anyone ...

Reddit's 'Find Boston Bombers' Founder Says 'It Was a Disaster' but 'Incredible'

http://news.yahoo.com/reddits-boston-bombers-founder-says-disaster-incredible-225823288.html

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Just for the fun of it.. on 05/17/2013 15:55:30 MDT Print View

After we get done with the lynching I say we go up to Washington and get them to legalize dueling, but only for politicians or and private citizens challenging annoying IRS/TSA agents. Politicians don't like each other? They can shoot it out (and push CSPAN's ratings through the roof). Don't like the way you got treated by a TSA agent? Challenge him to a duel!

Imagine all the benefits... we'd be creating new jobs, we'd be resolving conflict, CSANN would be the ultimate reality show, and everyone would be much more polite. Sort of "Darwinian" manners, we'd replace "Survival of the fittest" with "Survival of the most respectful."

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Just for the fun of it.. on 05/17/2013 16:18:52 MDT Print View

As a pacifist (ha ha ha.... almost said that with a straight face), instead of dueling, I'd prefer to use a dance-off format.

Example:

"I'd like a large coffee please."

"Do you mean venti or grande?"

"IT'S GO TIME BE-AH-CHA!"

(visualize customer doing "The Sprinkler")

"Oh hecks no! I didn't get my master's degree in art (sorry Craig W. but it fits the stereotype I'm going for here) to get punked out with some lame arsed moves like THAT!

(visualize barista jumping onto the counter who then lays down a flawless performance of "Roger Rabbit")

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Just for the fun of it... on 05/17/2013 16:22:19 MDT Print View

Ian would "Pacifist Soldiers" be similar in any way to the Pacifist Headhunters I met? Nice folks but rather confused I think. I got tired of them an moved in with a tribe of Vegetarian Cannibals on an island of the coast of Iowa.

Edit - Yes dance offs would work but I still think dueling would be great. I visualize D.C. as sort of a "real world" reality show. "Which Senator will be shot tonight?" Maybe we could figure out a way for fans to get involved?

Edited by Cameron on 05/17/2013 16:24:28 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re Re Just for the fun of it... on 05/17/2013 16:28:50 MDT Print View

dont do dance offs ... the koreans will take over the world

they just need to trot out PSY and his GAGNAM style ... and youll feel like yr facing a NUKE in a waterpistol fight ;)

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Re Re Just for the fun of it.. on 05/17/2013 16:34:51 MDT Print View

As long as we don't have to deal with Justin Beiber and Mile Cyrus then I'm fine with the Koreans taking over the world via dance offs.

Edited by Cameron on 05/17/2013 16:35:26 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Just for the fun of it.. on 05/17/2013 16:48:56 MDT Print View

What kind of duel we talkin here? Swords? Pistolas? Straight up fisticuffs?








To mitigate thread drift: Maybe they could fight with empty water jugs?

Edited by WoodenWizard on 05/17/2013 16:50:03 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Just for the fun of it.. on 05/17/2013 19:43:49 MDT Print View

"...instead of dueling, I'd prefer to use a dance-off format."

Better yet, pose-off. Practice your Magnums....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gx9O6q0pDAU&feature=fvwp

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Re: Re: AND on 05/18/2013 16:05:54 MDT Print View

"Nothing says "Ladies... I'm here to party" like bellbottom jeans and a polyester shirt con butterfly collar. "

You may be right. But only if it is accessorized properly.

some_text

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
everywhere on 05/18/2013 16:37:09 MDT Print View

>>No- it's a SYMPTOM of the decline in civilization and morality. It's present everywhere.

Exactly. Everywhere and in every time. Keep in mind corn flakes were invented by a guy who thought tasteless food could stop the decline of civilization and morality from too much (any) masturbation.

Sharon J.
(squark) - F

Locale: SF Bay area
dueling on 05/18/2013 16:47:04 MDT Print View

>What kind of duel we talkin here? Swords? Pistolas? Straight up fisticuffs?

Canne de Combat:







anyone have a pair of GG LT4s for sale?

Edited by squark on 05/18/2013 16:47:49 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re dueling on 05/18/2013 22:11:30 MDT Print View

I think GG ST4s with titanium points would be perfect for UL dueling!

Dueling pistols are traditionally single shot. How about we have them duel with that plasic "3D printer" pistol?