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Calorie deficit to save weight. :)
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Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Re: Re: Re: Calorie deficit to save weight. SERIOUSLY! on 04/23/2013 16:21:45 MDT Print View

gg,
With all due respect; you completely missed my points. It had nothing to do about what can and can not be done.

They had to do with making an informed decision.

The OP - Kevin - posted this.

"In my long yellowstone trip of last year (2 weeks) I noticed that I really didn't want to eat much of the food I brought with me even though I was hiking and active ~10 or more hours per day."

Please go back to my post and you will see I was suggesting he do his research so he can understand the effects of altitude.

He might not have felt hungry at 8K feet but he might at sea level.

He was thinking that he could eat less calories and burn off fat but, at altitude the body could burn protein from muscle instead.

Also, at altitude, under some conditions, the body does not metabolize food as efficiently so you don't get all the calories out of the food you eat.

My comments above are not meant to be definative on the issue - just some areas to research.

Edited by dextersp1 on 04/23/2013 16:33:18 MDT.

Jim W.
(jimqpublic) - MLife

Locale: So-Cal
Re: Calorie deficit to save weight. SERIOUSLY! on 04/23/2013 16:24:19 MDT Print View

From the PCT List: The Twin Heresies of Demetri Coupounas

(No-cook food is the first heresy, light shoes the second)

Food on the JMT:

"As an experiment, I tried carrying 100% raw, no-preparation required foods with me. The staple was mangoes, but there were also plenty of dates, pecans, macademia nuts, and kelp. The experiment went fantastically. I found that I needed far less raw food than I do cooked food to keep me feeling great and moving well. I consumed only 1.6 pounds per day. Having packed almost 3 pounds per day for an 11-day itinerary, I soon started looking for people I could give food to. These I found, thanks mostly to the fact that I was giving away macademia nuts I suppose. Over the trip, I parted with 12 pounds of food and still had 2 pounds left over at the end! I will pack far less next time. Basic strategy was to (1) eat all the fruit I wanted at each rest stop; (2) then have a handful of nuts to keep my body burning fat all day long; and (3) finish with a piece of kelp for electrolyte mineral balance and to keep my teeth pretty clean in between brushings/flossings. I'd follow this trio up with lots and lots of water."

Food on the LT:

"The 100% raw food experiment that started on the JMT continued on the Long Trail (see my JMT write-up for background). This time I packed right finishing the very last of my food at the Massachusetts border, 3.8 miles before getting to Mass Route 2. I went through about 1.6 pounds of food per day, and lost about 17 pounds of bodyweight in 13 days, dropping from 197 to 180 - this too was planned and welcomed. I had a great variety of dried fruit including mangoes, bananas, papaya, jack fruit, goji berries, figs and dates, andnuts including macademias, pecans, pistachios, and almonds. I bought all of the fruit from Nature's FirstLaw (www.rawfood.com) and Whole Foods Market, both sources I recommend highly for their premium quality and freshness."

Food on the CT:

"The 100% raw food experiment that started on the JMT and Long Trail continued on the Colorado Trail (see my JMT write-up especially for details). It was a comedy of errors this time, though mercifully, several of the errors virtually cancelled each other out. First, I packed way too much food. I wanted to be very conservative given the remoteness of much of the trail and the possibility of major storms, so I planned on 21 days and 1lb, 14 oz of food per day - more food per day than I ate on the previous two trails. But shorter days meant fewer hours of hiking and this more than offset increased calorie burning due to cold. Now and then I wished I didn't have so much food to carry, and about 1/3 of the way in, as a near perfect illustration of the precept "be careful what you wish for" I lost almost 8 pounds of fruit due to molding taking my total fruit supply down from 31 pounds to just 23 for the whole trip. I may never know what caused the molding, but my best guess is that the freeze-thaw cycle most days impacted the fruit much more harshly than the California and Vermont temperature swings, which, while just as great, did not cross the freezing threshold. Since the fruit was my primary carbohydrate source, I immediately cut my hiking pace to burn an even higher percentage of my calories from fat, including body-fat. The high daily mileages I racked up the first week allowed me to do this without undo concern. I did start sleeping with my fruit though :-~). In case of a second major snow storm, I overcompensated, hoarding my calories until the final 2 days when I knew I would be below 10,000 feet and all but home-free. As liberally as I ate from there, I still came out with 4 pounds to spare - about enough for 3 nights survival in a snow cave. The good news is I could've handled 21 days; the bad news is I carried 4 pounds of extra food around 500 miles and it's just sitting in my kitchen still. Just as on the previous two trails, I lost over 1 ? pounds per day starting at 193 ? pounds and ending up at 169."

Jim W.
(jimqpublic) - MLife

Locale: So-Cal
Re: Re: Calorie deficit to save weight. SERIOUSLY! on 04/23/2013 16:31:06 MDT Print View

My brief experience is that I want about 1500 calories/day for the first several days of a moderate summer trip, then it ramps up to maybe 2500. If I'm pushing hard I want lots of carbs, if I'm taking it easy I can do more with fats and protein. I've always used a gauge of 1.5 pounds/day of food+packaging, and have never run out.

I think the calculus is way different for a trip like the JMT or shorter vs. long term trail life such as one of the longer trails. Most "backpacking fit" Americans have plenty of fat reserves to run on a deficit for a few weeks. Read PCT blogs and you will find that people have trouble eating at first, and they're losing weight. Then after 700 miles the Sierra comes along and they are suddenly ravenous.

Bill Segraves
(sbill9000) - F - M
Re: Re: Calorie deficit to save weight. SERIOUSLY! on 04/24/2013 19:57:15 MDT Print View

"https://www.google.com/search?q=how+high+altitudes+affect+food+metablism"

Some interesting references there, though after reading a few of them with conflicting results (or interpretations), I'm not so sure the implications are clear.

Is there a particular piece or two of evidence that seems most clearly to suggest that protein would be catabolized in preference to fat at altitude? Any evidence as to whether this would happen even if protein made up a reasonable proportion of caloric intake?

From another post, any particularly good reference for reduced efficiency of caloric utilization at altitude? Sources that enable this to be quantified?

Best,

Bill S.

PS - Fwiw, my own appetite suppression experience suggests it's not altitude-dependent. All subjective, but for given level of exertion, my appetite or lack thereof is pretty much the same from 0 to 10,000 feet.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
calories on 04/24/2013 20:14:04 MDT Print View

I pretty much always have a calorie deficit.
Its pretty hard to bring enough food to cover calories if you hike high miles in strenuous terrain.
I may run 2000+ deficit
I just bring about 1.75 ppd, and dont even think about it.
On a 75 mile hike in 5 days last fall, I lost about 5 lbs.

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Re: Re: Re: Calorie deficit to save weight. SERIOUSLY! on 04/25/2013 12:23:58 MDT Print View

Willian Seagraves:

""https://www.google.com/search?q=how+high+altitudes+affect+food+metablism"

Some interesting references there, ..."

Yes ... do your research.

I'm been at 8K feet for 2 months now and I'm hiking up and back to 14.2K in one day. When there is less snow I will be doing other hikes.

I've done my research and nutrition and altitude is an interesting topic. I highly recommend anyone going up research hydration and nutrition. Not doing that could be dangerous. Altitude sickness is deadly. Dehydration can lead to poor decision making, cold extremities, and contribute to hypothermia.

Everyone knows the importance of eating enough and properly. But, at altitude it is even more important. I knew a guy who was on ski patrol and he said he ate a stick of butter to insure he had enough calories along with other nutrients.

Focusing only on weight before and after a trek doesn't really tell us much. What we need do know is the percentage of body fat. If a person starts off at 200lbs and 15% body fat and returns 200lbs but 20% body fat tells us much more.

Edited by dextersp1 on 04/25/2013 12:52:26 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Calorie deficit to save weight. SERIOUSLY! on 04/25/2013 17:25:34 MDT Print View

"I'm been at 8K feet for 2 months now and I'm hiking up and back to 14.2K in one day. When there is less snow I will be doing other hikes.

I've done my research and nutrition and altitude is an interesting topic. I highly recommend anyone going up research hydration and nutrition. Not doing that could be dangerous. Altitude sickness is deadly. Dehydration can lead to poor decision making, cold extremities, and contribute to hypothermia.

Everyone knows the importance of eating enough and properly. But, at altitude it is even more important. I knew a guy who was on ski patrol and he said he ate a stick of butter to insure he had enough calories along with other nutrients.

Focusing only on weight before and after a trek doesn't really tell us much. What we need do know is the percentage of body fat. If a person starts off at 200lbs and 15% body fat and returns 200lbs but 20% body fat tells us much more."

Hi Paul,

I suspect many of the folks following this thread are familiar with the general info you mention, but your 2 months at 8K with frequent hikes to 14K could yield a wealth of detailed info, albeit from only one individual. Would you be willing to share it with us? Diet, hydration, weight loss/gain/stability, rates/frequency of ascent, any AMS, body composition changes, if known? It isn't often we potentially have access to this kind of data; I, for one, would be very interested in looking it over and relating it to my own personal experience. Lots to be learned here.

Thanks,

Tom

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Calorie deficit to save weight - Tom Kirchner on 04/27/2013 09:35:39 MDT Print View

Tom,
There is a huge amount of info required to safely hike Colorado 14ers in Winter like conditions.
I'd suggest those interested in beginning to learn to go to:
www.14ers.com

Some notes:
I'm 58 & go it alone
How often I go up depends up how fast I can recover and the weather.

I know to keep hydrated yet - I got a bad case of constipation from not enough water

I lost about 3" in my waist line. I don't have any other measurements. I eat even if I don't feel hungry.

Conditions are always changing - sometimes I carry snow shoes, crampons and ice axe.

Yesterday I got up at 5am and to the trail head at 6:45a
Breakfast - 2 pop tarts, 2 clif bars, 40 ounces of liquids.
On the trail I drank 3 liters of water and a mix of gorp and Power Bars. When I got back I had 2 beers, 10oz of hamburger, cheese and almonds.

I got back to the trail head at 7pm and did not get to the top. I was about 300 vertical feet from the top. There is a lot of bolder scrambling that take time and I knew I couldn't get back before sunset. So I went up about 5,000 vertical feet over 4 miles.

Why so slow? There was snow on the whole route and I was breaking the trail. Every step after a certain point was I sank into the snow by about 4".

This time I carried snow shoes but never used them. I carry enough equipment to survive one night in the mts (I hope) - personal location beacon, cell phone (works in certain levels) emergency bivey, emergency meds and a canister stove. I stop to cook some freeze dried eggs and bacon this time.

A person does need to know about avalanche danger, weather, lighting, hydration, nutrition and equipment.

I hope this helps to get people interested in learning more.

PS - I used the Reflextic pouch for cooking, MSR folding spoon and SOTO OD1r stove.

PPS - some people have estimated that they burn 400 - 500 calories per hour during winter hiking a 14er.

Edited by dextersp1 on 04/27/2013 09:37:57 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Calorie deficit to save weight - Tom Kirchner on 04/28/2013 20:09:24 MDT Print View

"Some notes:
I'm 58 & go it alone
How often I go up depends up how fast I can recover and the weather.

I know to keep hydrated yet - I got a bad case of constipation from not enough water

I lost about 3" in my waist line. I don't have any other measurements. I eat even if I don't feel hungry.

Conditions are always changing - sometimes I carry snow shoes, crampons and ice axe.

Yesterday I got up at 5am and to the trail head at 6:45a
Breakfast - 2 pop tarts, 2 clif bars, 40 ounces of liquids.
On the trail I drank 3 liters of water and a mix of gorp and Power Bars. When I got back I had 2 beers, 10oz of hamburger, cheese and almonds."

Thanks for the info, Paul. Sounds like you do some serious hiking out there.

400-500 calories is not surprising for winter hiking. Or a lot of 3 season hiking for that matter, IME.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/28/2013 22:32:13 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/09/2013 01:00:04 MDT.

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
What happened to Kevin the OP? on 04/29/2013 12:53:08 MDT Print View

I hope he is OK

Edited by dextersp1 on 04/29/2013 12:54:00 MDT.