Knots
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Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Knots on 04/15/2013 23:58:05 MDT Print View

I like knots, so I thought I would share my list.

Trucker's hitch for tying down with maximum tension, kayaks, firewood, etc.
Adjustable grip hitch is my newest addition thanks to an earlier post, best adjustable loop and tension adjuster for guy lines.
Round turn and two half hitches for making a rope fast to any post or ring, like mooring my buddy's bass boat.
Sheet bend for joining cord of same or different diameter, joining rope to tarp.
Clove hitch for PCT bear bag method.
Constrictor knot for binding bundles of poles, etc.

I try to find ways of using knots in daily life. Already this saved me some garage space by hoisting my bikes into the rafters. Anybody using interesting or specialized knots at work or at home on a routine basis?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 00:01:21 MDT Print View

A bowline is kind of handy if you need to put a loop on the end of a rope.

A prussik knot is kind of handy if you need to have a moving grasp on a rope.

--B.G.--

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Handy knots on 04/16/2013 01:36:15 MDT Print View

Alpine Butterfly Loop

Dragon Bowline

One-handed Bowline

All manner of pin and spar hitches

Lashing techniques

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 06:39:32 MDT Print View

I use bowlines, figure of eight and round turn with two half hitches most.

J J
(jraiderguy) - M

Locale: Puget Sound
Just discovered the Siberian Hitch on 04/16/2013 09:03:15 MDT Print View

I'm new to knots, but I just discovered the siberian hitch. It is my new favorite knot for tying tarp lines to trees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_hitch

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
knots on 04/16/2013 14:54:47 MDT Print View

Hey that Siberian hitch is very cool, thanks for sharing!

Rarely i get to use the Alpine Butterfly, fixed loops in the center of a rope is just not something I need very often. The bowline Ive used alot too, maybe more than any other knot, but I recently decided that the adjustable grip hitch is just as easy with the added benefit of being adjustable.

I'm in the process of teaching my girls (9-13 yrs old) some of the basics, especially when we go camping since I usually have them setup camp for us. So far they have used the bowline for loops on the end of guylines and half hitches for a bunch of other stuff.

Not sure why I'm so drawn to knots. Probably because deep down I know that eventually all civilization will collapse into a fiery inferno of chaos and the only thing that will save my family from complete annihilation is one, well-executed knot.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Shame. on 04/16/2013 15:36:17 MDT Print View

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned the Monkey's Fist, the only knot that can hide a giant gemstone and/or knock someone out cold. A lead fishing weight concealed inside sweetens it up a bit...
It can be used to throw a line ashore, toss a lifeline to a fellow drunken pirate, as well as commit various forms of larceny and aggravated assault.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Monkey's fist on 04/16/2013 15:50:50 MDT Print View

The Monkey's Fist is just a legend man. Everyone knows that it does not really exist. No living man can form is mysterious curves and bends, much less wield it effectively without killing himself. Everyone, please ignore this man, he obviously has had his cookies tossed one too many times.

I mean, look at his avatar for christ sake.

Edited by Lopez on 04/16/2013 15:54:47 MDT.

Leigh Baker
(leighb) - F

Locale: Northeast Texas Pineywoods
Adan on 04/16/2013 16:08:40 MDT Print View

I think it's great you're teaching your young girls. When I was growing up it wasn't common even to be taught them in girl scouts, at least not the troops I was in. I've become proficient in a few, thanks to YouTube and Animated knots by Grog.com. Bowline, trucker's hitch, clove hitch and marlin spike hitch are the ones I commonly use for backpacking and paddling. I would love to learn more, but find that if I don't use them on a regular basis I don't remember them.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 17:34:16 MDT Print View

One summer while I was in the Army, we had a school of rappelling. Among other tasks, I had to teach the basic knot class. I was amazed at how many guys didn't know how to tie any knots at all other than a granny knot. Even after I supposedly taught them how to tie a bowline and they tied one, we had to go along and check everybody's knots visually before they actually went over a cliff with one.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 19:29:10 MDT Print View

I'm still trying to get past the square knot. I did learn how to properly tie my shoe laces a while back though.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 20:39:47 MDT Print View

"...I did learn how to properly tie my shoe laces a while back though."

Do you use an Ian knot or a double slipped reef knot? :)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 20:51:49 MDT Print View

> Do you use an Ian knot or a double slipped reef knot? :)

Duh? I don't know.

I'm just a dumb backpacker, not a sailor.

All I need to do is tie my shoes, adjust my guy lines once in a while (line locks or fixed guys work better for me), and sometimes hang a bear bag. So I use knots but they are never the same and I only know how to tie one official knot. I don't bring ropes with me either.

All of this sounds mucho macho to me.

... However if it counts, I can overall a car engine :)

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Knots on 04/16/2013 21:02:45 MDT Print View

Well, if I ever need an engine rebuilt, I'll teach you how to tie a few really special knots like the Monkey Fist in return for parts and labor...
Deal?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 21:04:44 MDT Print View

Deal.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Knots on 04/16/2013 22:18:54 MDT Print View

Back in first grade, Sr Jackie was aghast that I could not tie my shoe laces. This gaunt woman looked uncannily like the actress who played "the wicked witch of the west" from The Wizard of Oz. However, being a French-Canadian nun, Sr Jackie was far scarier.

Sr Jackie made me get in front of the class and I had to practice tieing my shoes in front of everyone until I. Got. It. Right.

My six year old self was sweating bullets. I finally got it right after a half hour of humiliation and embarrassment. Love those old school nuns! :)
I learned both how to tie my shoes and that old French-Canadian nuns could break down a marine drill instructor without breaking a sweat.


So my affinity for knots never did blossom. Sure, I made a half-hearted attempt when I was in Boyscouts for two years. But I never did get past the square knot (And tieing my shoes. 'Natch). Despite my outdoor skills, knot tying was not high on the list of how I could wow people. :)


A few years ago, I started alpine climbing. Somehow learning to tie a knot seemed a tad more important.
The figure 8 was mastered. The clove hitch kept me safely anchored in. A Prussik did wonders.

And unlike Sr Jackie, my climbing buddies aren't quite as scary. They even take turns buying rounds of beer. :)

Richard Gless
(rgless) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Clove hitch as a climbing anchor on 04/16/2013 22:30:04 MDT Print View

I've been climbing in Yosemite and the High Sierra for over 30 yrs. Never heard of using a clove hitch to anchor. Somehow I think I'd like something a little more solid. Just a thought....

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Clove hitch on 04/16/2013 23:08:47 MDT Print View

It is for tying INTO the anchor and not the anchor itself.
http://climbing.about.com/od/climbingknots/a/Clove-Hitch-For-Climbing.htm

Being a burly climber of 30 yrs, I suspect you know that....and have no intention of being persnickety and sarcastic to win Internet points. :)

Edited by PaulMags on 04/16/2013 23:13:10 MDT.

Jeremy B.
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Knots on 04/16/2013 23:39:25 MDT Print View

It always bugged me when one of my shoelace knots would rotate around to point fore-and-aft, rather than lying with ends tidily to each side. I finally figured out why when I found Ian's site, and since then I also use his "better bow" (rabbit goes twice around the tree).

Edited by requiem on 04/16/2013 23:40:01 MDT.

Richard Gless
(rgless) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Clove hitch on 04/17/2013 00:30:15 MDT Print View

I don't want to start an flame war, but, myself, I'd rather take the time to tie a better knot. From the website you referenced.

Problems with the Clove Hitch

The clove hitch, however, does have some problems. These include:
•The clove hitch is not as strong as a figure-8-on-a-bight knot or a self-equalizing figure-8 knot for tying into anchors.
•The clove hitch loses strength if it’s not tightened down after being tied.
•The clove hitch can slip when it’s loaded with either the weight of the belayer or a climber below, especially if it is not tightened.
•The clove hitch can slip if it’s tied with a stiff, wet, or....

It only takes one mistake when you're climbing.

Edited by rgless on 04/17/2013 00:31:13 MDT.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
And the advantages on 04/17/2013 07:29:00 MDT Print View

Ah, but there are advantages..and that's why you are careful. :)

Trust me, my buddy is a climbing instructor for the CMC and is know for being conservative with climbing. He's been climbing for roughly the same span you have have.

I readily admit I am not an expert..but do trust my friend.

Feel free to e-mail any further follow up directly.

Otherwise I may have to say what the 12 yr old boy scouts called a square knot. And it was not not Politically Correct. :)

Edited by PaulMags on 04/17/2013 11:30:39 MDT.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Engine know-how does not replace good knot skills on 04/17/2013 11:16:13 MDT Print View

I once knew a guy who did not know how to tie his shoes. And he's dead now. Knots are serious business, I dont care what Nick says.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
to knot, or not to knot, that is the question on 04/17/2013 13:45:37 MDT Print View

So far, the Farrimond is my favorite guyline knot. Anyone know anyone any better that is relatively easy to learn, fast, and very easy to undo?

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Hitches rock! on 04/17/2013 14:16:24 MDT Print View

The Farrimond is another I had not seen before, awesome! So many of these are discussed on the bushcrafter pages. Maybe I'm a closet bushcrafter?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Engine know-how does not replace good knot skills on 04/17/2013 14:17:21 MDT Print View

I used to climb quite a bit. Also a fisherman (mostly saltwater, but flyfishing too). Hard to escape tying knots if you do either. Do you need a ton of knots? Probably not. But I enjoy knowing them and seeking uses for them.

On an aside, I find knots fascinating. It's the romantic as well as artist in me. Some knots are clumsy workhorses, others beautiful and elegant. The Siberian Hitch mentioned earlier is a beautifully simple work of art and design in my opinion. I like the mix of form and function involved.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
My basic knots on 04/17/2013 14:32:43 MDT Print View

I can tie the following with proficiency and they've served me well on my adventures:

Bowline
Figure 8
Clove hitch
Square knot
prusik
taut line
Mangus hitch

I know a few others but these are what I use 99% of the time (not including my shoes.)

I discovered recently that what I thought was the taut line hitch is actually the Mangus Hitch. Pretty close to the same thing except the finish. I've always just used a prusik knot on my tarp system but seems that many people on BPL prefer the taut line for some reason. I'll have to switch to it to see if I can perceive a difference in performance.

Edited to improve the general awesomeness of my response.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/17/2013 15:41:14 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: My basic knots on 04/17/2013 14:40:06 MDT Print View

"taught line hitch"

Surely you mean a taut line hitch.

--B.G.--

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Facepalm on 04/17/2013 15:32:49 MDT Print View

..

Edit: whatever do you mean I don't know what you are talking about.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/17/2013 15:34:22 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Facepalm on 04/17/2013 15:59:12 MDT Print View

"Edit: whatever do you mean I don't know what you are talking about."

Ian, this is a lie and you know it. Why do you try to pull the wool over the eyes of the forum readers? Perhaps you want to retract your statement.

--B.G.--

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Facepalm on 04/17/2013 16:14:34 MDT Print View

Holy cow Bob it was a joke! The Facepalm title to my response I thought was an overly obvious admission to my idiotic error. Relax.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Facepalm on 04/17/2013 16:18:54 MDT Print View

"Holy cow Bob it was a joke!"

Next time you make a comment like that, use (just joking) or something, since Facepalm has no obvious meaning.

--B.G.--

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
You got it! on 04/17/2013 16:28:02 MDT Print View

Bob... my humor is very dry and I don't use emoticons all that often. I also freely admit that my ability to self edit is somewhat slower than my ability it hit "Post Message." It's an area of weakness that I'm well aware of and I don't mind taking my lumps when I screw something like that up.

In the future I will try to be a little more obvious when I'm trying to be funny and I'll throttle it back when I'm interacting with you.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/17/2013 16:28:58 MDT.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Here's how that should've went down... on 04/17/2013 18:14:21 MDT Print View

"Surely you mean a taut line hitch."

Whatever, spelling Nazi, and don't call me Shirley.

BER ---
(BER) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
For Bob's benefit (facepalm) on 04/17/2013 20:28:26 MDT Print View

"Next time you make a comment like that, use (just joking) or something, since Facepalm has no obvious meaning."

It actually does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facepalm

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: You got it! on 04/17/2013 20:35:42 MDT Print View

"In the future I will try to be a little more obvious when I'm trying to be funny"

I'd appreciate it if you'd be a little less obvious, dude. I mean, it's not necessary to hit us over the head with it and all.....

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Correction and getting lost in the mundane on 04/18/2013 09:20:24 MDT Print View

As luck would have it, I'm a rookie in the SAR academy and last night was our second knot class. The Mangus hitch is something different altogether and doesn't appear to be similar to the taut line hitch; it is more similar to a clove hitch. I also learned that there are a couple variations of the taut line but they only vary in how the knot is finished. Doesn't seem to make a difference either way. The way I tie it looks like 3/4 of a Prusik and that works for me.

We did learn the Alpine Butterfly and I think I'll have use for it in the future. When using a trucker’s hitch, it seems to be easier to untie than a figure 8 loop.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Engine know-how does not replace good knot skills on 04/18/2013 09:39:08 MDT Print View

"I once knew a guy who did not know how to tie his shoes. And he's dead now. Knots are serious business, I dont care what Nick says."

I am so glad I learned how to properly tie my shoes at the early age of 62. I wonder how I made it through all these years and am alive to talk about it :)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Facepalm. on 04/18/2013 12:17:46 MDT Print View

asdf

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Ha ha! on 04/18/2013 12:31:03 MDT Print View

I'll stick to Shakespearian English from now on to keep things less dramatic... at least until I have a BPL journeyman's understanding of the facepalm and all its mysteries.

"I seeith that I spelleth thine knotworks in a poopeth fashion."

(This is a joke and no thespians were harmed in its creation)

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Ha ha! on 04/18/2013 13:44:12 MDT Print View

>I'll stick to Shakespearian English from now on to keep things less dramatic... at least until I have a BPL journeyman's understanding of the facepalm and all its mysteries.

drtyj





>(This is a joke and no thespians were harmed in its creation)

A pity.

Edited by T.L. on 04/18/2013 13:46:50 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Facepalm. on 04/18/2013 14:25:51 MDT Print View

Now I get it. I thought you folks were talking about that Facebook thingy.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Clove hitch on 04/18/2013 15:04:34 MDT Print View

Problems with the Clove Hitch

The clove hitch, however, does have some problems. These include:
•The clove hitch is not as strong as a figure-8-on-a-bight knot or a self-equalizing figure-8 knot for tying into anchors.
•The clove hitch loses strength if it’s not tightened down after being tied.
•The clove hitch can slip when it’s loaded with either the weight of the belayer or a climber below, especially if it is not tightened.
•The clove hitch can slip if it’s tied with a stiff, wet, or....


and yet the clove hitch is the standard taught and used by ACMG guides for tying into the anchor

there a lot of urban legends going around vs those who actually climb every day

even for climbing you dont need to know a lot of knots ... but you DO have to know those few so well that you can tie them in the dark with cold shaking hands in the middle of a rain storm when tire and hungry, and tie em quickly ...

for hiking and other bear bagging ... well you arent taking a factor 2 off the belay so i wouldnt overly worry ;)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Clove hitch on 04/18/2013 15:45:05 MDT Print View

"for hiking and other bear bagging ... well you arent taking a factor 2 off the belay so i wouldnt overly worry ;) "

My point in the beginning -- most of us only backpack ;)

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Clove hitch on 04/18/2013 15:55:33 MDT Print View

+1 Eric.

This has always been a standard climbing knot in my book. The advantage of the clove hitch on a bite is how quickly it can be tied and clipped into a carabiner...Flip two loops into a rope, pass the second behind the first, and clip. It could *almost* be done one handed.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Clove on 04/18/2013 16:02:15 MDT Print View

You can tie it one handed with the rope already on the biner ...

Also if you know how to clove, youll remember very easily how to munter ... Which is a critical skill on multipitch

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Clove on 04/18/2013 16:10:19 MDT Print View

Haven't tried a clove one-handed. Will have to now though.

Every so often the Munter debate arises on here; someone comes along and proclaims that you can save the weight of a belay/rappel device. Why you'd willingliy fuzz and twist your rope when you could simply carry an ATC or something small is beyond me. Munter as a back-up, part of a haul/lowering system, or emergency tool, I get it. But as a primary belay in this day and age...Why?

Edited by xnomanx on 04/18/2013 16:11:12 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Clove on 04/18/2013 16:23:36 MDT Print View

think winter when frozen (we all know dry treatment wears off) ropes cant get through some of the belay devices

the other reason is that it works perfectly fine .... if you dont lower or rap on the munter (dont weight it continuously) it really doesnt twist the rope

but the best reason is to keep in practice because when you do need it, or the munter mule for a tie off ... you wont spend 20 min fiddling and remembering how to tie it

a few years ago we were on something like the 8th pitch up the chief ... and i hear this CLANG CLANG CLANG down the rock from my partner at the anchor above... seems like he dropped his belay device ... he couldnt remember how to tie a munter ... good thing i dont fall on easy ground ... i lent him my atc and used the munter ...

a few times every year i go out and do some "old school" climbing to keep in practice with the basic skills .... no belay devices, nuts and hexes (no cams), carabiner brakes, rope anchors, etc ... like anything else, i can read and post on the intrawebs all i want about it, but without PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE its all for nothing

heres a good article on the munter by one of the top female american guides

http://www.climbing.com/skill/munter-magic/

Edited by bearbreeder on 04/18/2013 16:26:33 MDT.

Here There
(cowexnihilo) - MLife
One-handed clove/munter on 04/18/2013 17:17:45 MDT Print View

I came across this video awhile back that shows a nice way to do a one-handed clove or munter hitch (the good stuff starts at 1:33).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os_tQdhLI9Y

Be safe out there :)

-David

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
re Munter hitch on 04/18/2013 18:02:51 MDT Print View

Permit me to disagree.
The Munter hitch is a wonderful way to wreck a rope. Huge nylon against nylon abrasion, lots of heat, very sharp kinks in the rope, and just horrible.

Can't people do a classic over-the-shoulder abseil any more? If you haven't got a spare carabiner, you can even do a classic 'under the leg and over the shoulder' abseil. They work just fine, and we still use them.

mutter ... mumble...

Cheers

Here There
(cowexnihilo) - MLife
Re: Roger on 04/18/2013 18:53:06 MDT Print View

Roger,

I don't think anyone here has advocated using a Munter to abseil, but it is a useful knot to know for situations like Eric outlined--when somebody drops their belay device, and in a few other cases. Rappelling off a Munter for more than very short stretches is not something I care to do to my ropes...

-David

Jeremy B.
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Clove on 04/18/2013 20:47:30 MDT Print View

Also if you know how to clove, youll remember very easily how to munter ... Which is a critical skill on multipitch

Yep, when tied on a carabiner the similarities are very obvious.

For a clove hitch around anything larger in diameter I'd agree with Richard and wouldn't trust it. But after mulling the question over I thought I'd grab some rope and arrange some scenarios. (Safety Disclaimer: I don't climb much, don't trust a word of this post, etc., etc.)

1. A standard clove hitch on a locked carabiner:
clove hitch

2. Here I deliberately loosened and arranged a clove hitch on a non-locking carabiner (yes, a sharp tug did exactly what you'd expect):
doomed clove hitch

3. Finally, a clove hitch tied around a larger diameter object (in contrast to the first image):
clove hitch that can slip


Additional refs:
http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html (item 4)
http://www.lightandmatter.com/article/knots.html

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Engine know-how does not replace good knot skills on 04/18/2013 21:22:55 MDT Print View

"I am so glad I learned how to properly tie my shoes at the early age of 62. I wonder how I made it through all these years and am alive to talk about it :)"

Velcro?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
rappell on 04/18/2013 22:24:16 MDT Print View

"Can't people do a classic over-the-shoulder abseil any more?"

They could, if they had been trained. That was one thing that I demonstrated and taught in the summer of 1971. Unfortunately, it does a number on your clothing. All sorts of strange wear patterns show up in strange places.

--B.G.--