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Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 05:18:53 MDT Print View

I'll be gone for the weekend (camping!), but I have to ask.

Does clothing count as carried weight? Why or why not? This came up in a pants thread, where some zip-off users said there was no noticeable difference from clothing, and ounces saved there didn't matter. I found this surprising coming from people who I pictured cutting margins off maps and handles off toothbrushes.

So, when you count your pack weight, do you go skin-out? Or can you neglect ounces in favor of luxuries like convertible pants and extra pockets since there's no difference?

Interested to hear both sides,

Max

Richard Reno
(scubahhh) - M

Locale: White Mountains, mostly.
Skin out. on 04/12/2013 05:23:27 MDT Print View

you're still carrying it, eh?

Unless it's a kilt. in that case maybe you get a little free lift from the breezes bellowing up inside there?

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Sailing on 04/12/2013 05:42:12 MDT Print View

Sarongs are coming back. Mark my words.

Andre Buhot
(Shadow-MKII) - M
Not Really on 04/12/2013 06:04:37 MDT Print View

If I'm wearing it, then in my mind I don't count it.

But I still wear boots so what do I know? (But I wear them everyday so I notice no difference when I'm walking)

Pockets aren't luxuries either

Edited by Shadow-MKII on 04/12/2013 06:05:33 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 06:33:16 MDT Print View

Full Skin Out is reality. You are actually carrying everything no matter how you want to try and fool yourself.

Base weight is for those people who are trying to hit an arbitrary number sometimes. "I can have a 5 pound base weight if I carry my camera, multi tool, knife, firesteel,zip off legs in my pockets." Also known as cheaters.

I hike slower in boots, 'cause they are heavier. If you were wearing 20 pounds of clothes and gear. Would you not feel heavier and slower than if you were wearing 5 pounds?

my 2 cents.

I only answered because you asked. I never have this dicussion with the people I hike with. We take the gear needed to be safe and have a good time. I don't weigh my pack before a trip much these days. All of my gear is lightweight. So a combination of my gear should always be lightweight as long as I don't get carried away with extras. Food and drink weigh as much as the gear.

Too many here are overweight. I've got a 15-20 pound base weight to cut from myself. That change will result in all physical exertion being easier. plus smaller clothes weigh less.

Tom Lyons
(towaly) - F

Locale: Smoky Mtns.
Everything counts. on 04/12/2013 06:51:06 MDT Print View

The reality is that you need to have some things for what you are doing, so you have to carry them. If we didn't need anything, we woudldn't have to carry anything.

So, if you need heavier clothes to stay warm, or to resist brush tearing, or to keep the sun, wind, or rain off of you, or if you need pockets which add an ounce or three, then you have to carry them. Just like if you need a heavier sleeping bag, or a heavier winter coat, or whatever.

The manufacturers' tags and handles on toothbrushes, as examples, are things which are NOT needed for function, and that is why they get cut off.

There is a difference between useful weight, and just plain dead weight. If we didn't need anything, we could hike naked.

Edited by towaly on 04/12/2013 06:52:23 MDT.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 07:17:08 MDT Print View

I think your asking the wrong question. Counts implies there is some kind of contest and that seemed like where the other thread was headed. What really matters is how does the weight affect your ability to hike.

I would argue worn clothes affect your ability to hike less that the same clothes in the pack.

To me the baseweight definition is used to make comarison of packs easier because it takes out a lot of variables. Some people take it to far and assume there is some king of magical set of rules that cant be broken.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 07:46:06 MDT Print View

I don't count base clothing. you don't notice the clothes you wear around every day do you? do you go oh man this tshirt is heavy..

i DO notice shoe weight and use trail runners for lightness and for knee comfort. but those are extra pounds difference. I don't nitpick my shoe weight though, my Solomons fit me and that is important. hell i wanted non water proof but the same model does not fit me as well. not sure why but i deal with it

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Lose weight on 04/12/2013 07:55:35 MDT Print View

I agree that it depends.

When I was on a cycling team waaaay back in college we used to spend a lot money buying lighter components so we didn't have to "carry" all that extra weight up a hill. Our coach reminded us it would make a much bigger difference to lose 20 pounds off our butts than to chop 8 ounces off the seat post.

So....

I agree that things like heavy boots will matter more because you are constantly lifting your foot and putting it down over the course of the hike, but other than that, as far as how heavy your pants are if they have a zipper or not...how much are you sweating? Did you poop? Did you hydrate very well? How much sweat is in your clothes? Did you eat a lot of salt in that last meal and are retaining water? All those things will add a lot of ounces to your skin out/skin in weight, so I'm not sure how THAT would really matter in the grander scheme of hiking.

Drop 15 pounds from your stomach and butt. That will make a WAY bigger difference than whether or not you have zippers and pockets on your pants.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 08:04:58 MDT Print View

If it always stays on my body, then I don't count it. Anything that I wear that is also in my pack part of the time gets counted in base weight. Anything that I carry on my body besides the aforementioned clothing is also counted.

I also never got into trimming labels or map margins. The weight savings, for me at least, was so negligible that I don't bother.

Heresy, I know.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Hell yes, it counts. It just doesn't matter. on 04/12/2013 08:23:19 MDT Print View

Everything gets weighed, full skin-out. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

However, when having a gear discussion, different methods may be more useful. If you're talking about how a particular pack compares to another, the weight of your shoes and underwear is a moot point.

I think the key to answering your question lies in the context of what is being discussed. In the other thread it was about zip-off pants. I tackle that question the way I do with any other multi-use item: Does the multi-use item weigh more or less than the items it replaces. Also, will it make my life easier or more difficult.

I agree that factoring in time lost to adjusting clothing layers is nearly pointless. That seemed like a red-herring argument if I ever heard one.

Gotta go to work now!

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Sure on 04/12/2013 09:02:19 MDT Print View

What are you trying to get out of your UL experience? I'm trying to maximize how my kit functions without carrying unnecessary garbage. I'm also willing to make concessions on certain pieces of gear because I like the way they function (eg I don't want to collect wood for a stove so I'll carry Esbit or a canister for example.) To me, if I'm using my convertible pants to their full utility and they don't weigh more than what I wear every day then I don't see the big deal. If I wasn't using the pockets then swapping these pants for wind pants or running shorts would be a no brainer. To be honest, I'll probably try it out for comparison.

I've read the books which explain the biomechanics of hiking boots vs trail runners so it's reasonable to assume that a heavier garment will play into this as well but this is a HYOH thing in my book.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/12/2013 09:06:45 MDT.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 09:14:35 MDT Print View

International lightweight gear competitions use skin-out weight as the standard.

If they didn't you might have a guy with a 1 pound pack wearing 8 layers of "clothing".

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Heavier on the trail on 04/12/2013 09:32:01 MDT Print View

To clarify: I DO look at a garment's weight and function before buying it, especially specialized pieces such as rain gear. That's a given.

Considering that I've worn pants every day for the past 30 years, I can be sure that my hiking pants aren't going to be noticeably heavier in the least. I'm simply not going to be suddenly bogged down by "heavy" pants as soon as I step onto the trail.

Just my opinion.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 09:40:31 MDT Print View

Haha, if you're wearing a giant, heavy woolen pea coat and double thick Carharrt cotton jeans, yeah you might want to count on skin weight, but generally speaking for me the only on skin weight i even bother considering is footwear!

Besides, light and UL backpacking to me, is more about comfort, principles of simplicity and efficiency, and reducing chance of injury, rather than racing as fast as one can to some kind of perceived (and quite illusionary) finish line in a certain grand time. The ego needs the latter, and those overly enmeshed in the ego do as well, but the more mature of us just like being out in nature. Granted there are times where it might be important and prudent to speed up, even for the more mature, and i'm sure lightweight on skin clothes can help a bit in that.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Everything counts. on 04/12/2013 09:44:46 MDT Print View

"If we didn't need anything, we woudldn't have to carry anything."


Well, that's my eventual plan and goal to work towards, ala Jesus style. Sometimes you gotta believe, before you can achieve. ; )

And then we can truly call it backpacking Light....

Edited by ArcturusBear on 04/12/2013 09:46:25 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Everything counts. on 04/12/2013 09:51:36 MDT Print View

I don't count my tent or sleeping bag. I only use them at night so why count them during the day?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Everything counts. on 04/12/2013 09:55:23 MDT Print View

"I don't count my tent or sleeping bag. I only use them at night so why count them during the day?"

Genius! Why didn't i think of that...after all, one could just simply wear their tent and sleeping bag whilst hiking, no...???

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Everything counts. on 04/12/2013 10:05:54 MDT Print View

Out of sight, out of mind. I don't see my pack while wearing it. I'm going to stop counting it then. With all the contents of course.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Everything counts. on 04/12/2013 10:14:18 MDT Print View

I've decided to only hike at high altitude. The air is simply too heavy near sea level.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:20:31 MDT Print View

Max,

Plug your gear inventory and weights on GearGrams.com

its a free cool tool, you can generate reports and categorize WORN, CONSUMABLES.

to give you an idea, of starting weight with food, end of trip with less food/water.

Knowing pack weight versus total weight is mildly useful. Example: you get a UL pack, you read reviews that it starts to rip at 30 lbs.

Worn clothes are not in the pack, so you can calculate the gear weight to stuff in the pack before causing it to tear.

I'll play devil's advocate, for the sake of argument.

Worn clothes in excess may cause excessive sweating, over heating. However excess clothes in your pack may annoy the pressure points on your back and waist belt. Also excess weight in your pack may affect your posture.

but a couple of pounds of extra clothes in your pack are not going to turn you into the hunchback of Notre Dame.

Overall, the excess weight of packed vs worn clothes would be negligible.


I understand from my friends that travel airlines, and their luggage are weighed and charged $ per excess ounces at the airport. These guys wear their heaviest clothes, boots, purses on their person, to minimize excess luggage weight charges.
I think this is where the mythology of worn vs packed originated from.

Chris S
(csteutterman) - F

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:24:53 MDT Print View

Once I realized my reluctance to hike naked would prevent me from ever winning an international lightweight gear competition, I decided to stop worrying about it. Even though I'll never win, I still have more fun when I take luxury items like clothing.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:27:02 MDT Print View

There's a hat that I used to wear when staffing a help desk On April 1 each year. It displayed the words:

"I don't know, I don't care, it makes no difference"

Picture me wearing that had as I type this:-)

On the other hand, I have a hiking buddy who's lost a good amount of weight and is touting "Full Spine Out" weight as the relevant measure. That works if you are only competing with yourself ... which is mainly where I am at this point of life.

BTW, our regular customers knew that I usually did know and always did care.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:28:04 MDT Print View

I use a gear list for every hike, and since it is computer-based it calculates base weight, total pack weight (with consumables), and FSO weight.

I think total pack weight is most important, because that weight is going to be attached to a small area of your body. FSO is next in line in importance. Base weight is almost silly unless you are trying to identify what items could possibly be candidates for replacement with lighter alternatives.

When I go on a trip I assemble the best gear I have to meet the conditions for the trip - what weighs, is what it weighs. Fortunately most of my gear options are light pieces. On many trips I could use a 3 ounce pack, but a 3lb pack will make it much easier to handle all the food and water.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:36:14 MDT Print View

for me clothing falls into two categories :

1. clothing that will always be worn on the body
2. clothing that will sometimes be carried in the pack

if it will ever be in the pack I count it as pack weight.

I do not really use the skin out weight measurement,
but I do keep close tabs on the weight of category #1 above and try to shave weight there also, it does count.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Spine Out Weight on 04/12/2013 10:45:00 MDT Print View

"Spine Out Weight"

Laughter can lighten things.

The line above lightened my load considerably.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:51:26 MDT Print View

Well this originated because max believes that because his shorts weigh less than my shorts that I am carrying 4oz extra on my body. because his windpants and the lower half of my zip offs are equal weight added to the pack would be the same.

now, max weighs 35lbs more than i do so I will not be worrying about 4oz extra in pockets that i find quite useful. (pop tarts fit in my cargo pocket quite nicely for a midmorning snack on the fly)

i'm already at the lower end of BMI for my height so i don't think losing body weight is a good idea ;)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Does Clothing Count? on 04/12/2013 10:55:20 MDT Print View

You'll are wearing me out with this. I'm going for hike this weekend and don't care what my clothes weigh :-)

Tom Lyons
(towaly) - F

Locale: Smoky Mtns.
Need/want on 04/12/2013 11:29:15 MDT Print View

The main reason why I bring ultralight necessary gear is so that I can carry more of what I want to bring, and not feel like I'm lugging the world around.

Sometimes the final load isn't so "ultralight", but the "needs" weigh less, so the "wants" can weigh more.
Like food.

:-)

Edited by towaly on 04/12/2013 11:30:20 MDT.

Kate Magill
(lapedestrienne) - F
sexy counts on 04/12/2013 11:36:25 MDT Print View

My exofficio nomad pants weigh about what a pair of patagonia baggies do. Whenever I buy cheap running shorts they disintegrate by the end of the summer. And if there are nettles or raspberries around and I'm wearing shorts, the skin on my legs disintegrate.

But mostly I wear shorts (or skirts) so I can show off my tatts and my mad hiker calves.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Re: sexy counts on 04/12/2013 11:43:39 MDT Print View

"But mostly I wear shorts (or skirts) so I can show off my tatts and my mad hiker calves."

If I were a chick, I'd wear skirts all the time. The ventilation must be excellent! I know someone here will chime in with, "Wear a kilt...", but I'm not Scottish and I live in Texas, so that might start a ruckus. Shorts are sexy enough for me. Show off all my best BMX scars!

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: sexy counts on 04/12/2013 12:04:35 MDT Print View

"Wear a kilt...", but I'm not Scottish and I live in Texas, so that might start a ruckus

MIGHT? There's little doubt ... except maybe around Austin, where there are a lot of immigrants (from other states).

I'm surprised that the little buddy in Dan's avatar doesn't cause a rukus:-)

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Need/want on 04/12/2013 12:12:44 MDT Print View

Tom Lyons is correct.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Need/want on 04/12/2013 12:30:03 MDT Print View

"Tom Lyons is correct."

Mostly correct. Instead of 'Like food' it should have been 'Like single malt....'

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
doesnt matter on 04/12/2013 13:59:02 MDT Print View

unless you are obsessed with spreadsheets and BPL lists ...

the bottom line is that youre still carrying, so it makes absolutely no difference if you "count" it or not

you could walk around nekkid of course ... just beware of bears seeking mates ;)

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/12/2013 14:33:52 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/09/2013 22:00:35 MDT.

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
total weight on 04/12/2013 15:58:40 MDT Print View

I agree with a lot of the people above. If you were going to do skin out weight I would think you would want your body added to that also. I mean you still have to carry it right?

The cloths you wear daily are no different than the body weight you carry daily. The weight there day in and day out I cant see how they differ. The weight of clothes goes up and down and so does body weight.

I think people weigh their pack weight for one purpose. To determine the comfort of their pack during hike. I would think skin out your just trying to get to a low number as the cloths you are wearing should not affect comfort of the weight your carrying.

It really does not matter what method you choose to weigh you and your gear as all you are really doing is creating a point of reference for you to compare to and make adjustments.

Drew Jay
(drewjh) - F

Locale: Central Coast
My take on 04/12/2013 16:08:54 MDT Print View

Base weight and spreadsheets are significant in that they allow you to better evaluate and make choices/changes that impact your total pack weight. I've cut my base weight by 1/2 (long trips) to 2/3 (short trips) since joining this forum which means up to ten pounds less in my backpack on any given trip. That was very much worth doing, and I never would've accomplished it without spreadsheets.

Total pack weight is the only figure that matters to me in the real world. The clothing I wear every day is far heavier than my hiking clothing, so saving a few ounces on a hat or pants or shirt is completely irrelevant to me. I do not walk around in daily life with 10 to 20 pounds hanging off my back though, so reducing total pack weight is very significant.

I carry certain items in pant and shirt pockets for easy access and safety. Mosquito head net, iphone (in shirt pocket,) bug dope, 1/2oz light, emergency items etc. The small loose items go in a zippered pouch attached to a belt loop with a lanyard. This isn't cheating, it is purely practical. If I'm heading into a buggy section or want to take a picture why take off my backpack when I can just reach into a pocket? The fact that it reduces the weight hanging off my back by few ounces is another (admittedly very slight) bonus - win win situation!

Edited by drewjh on 04/12/2013 17:15:03 MDT.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Does clothing count? on 04/12/2013 16:52:26 MDT Print View

If you want it, too. :)

If you load down your cargo pockets with a large knife, a camera, bug dope and enough food to stock a 7/11, it probably should.

If you just wear running shorts and a t-shirt with some chap stick in the running short's small pocket, probably not.



Ultimately, it is up to you and your standards. Use some common sense.

re: gear weight competition

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. Is there really such a thing? :)

re: men in kilts

A kilt looks killer on a burly, rugged tall Scott with a claymore. I am sure as heck not going to challenge this dude.

On a short, bald, Mediterranean looking fellow? Well, it may not intimidate people, but the people will convulse with laughter.

Edited by PaulMags on 04/12/2013 16:58:05 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Does clothing count? on 04/12/2013 22:23:28 MDT Print View

Paul, what about a short, rugged, burly Scott looking dude?? A bit o' laughter and a bit of respect?



(don't mind me, a wee bit tipsy this night & not me norm, do ye ken?)


(and yes, i wear kilts sometimes, but not because of my "heritage", but because it allows my boys to breathe)

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Screw kilts, I'm bringing back the loincloth! on 04/12/2013 23:03:55 MDT Print View

Thought about it all day, and although I'm half British, my ancestors were all from England or Wales. Not likely to be a single drop of Scottish blood in me.

However, I was married into an Indian family. My ex-wife is half Crow, quarter Navajo, and an eighth each of Hopi and Laguna. I feel perfectly OK claiming my right to wear traditional-style clothing of the northern plains Indians, namely the breechclout also known as a loincloth. And in the fashion of the Laguna and Navajo tribes of the southwest, I will wear heavy hide leggings to protect me from snakebite. And I've always admired how Acoma women carry water jugs, called Olla, on their heads....

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Screw kilts, I'm bringing back the loincloth! on 04/13/2013 01:48:33 MDT Print View

Rock that loincloth Daniel, rock the loincloth, rock the loincloth, but she may really not like it...

Indians? Indians come from India. Native Americans and various tribes of same come from the America's. I'm not a big fan of calling Native Americans "Indians", as that label hearkens back to ignorant days of Amero-Euros and their dismissive terms and views of the people they stole land and life from. I've had an issue with this since young, even 9 or 10, for some reason.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re: Screw kilts, I'm bringing back the loincloth! on 04/13/2013 07:53:53 MDT Print View

"Indians? Indians come from India. Native Americans and various tribes of same come from the America's. I'm not a big fan of calling Native Americans "Indians", as that label hearkens back to ignorant days of Amero-Euros and their dismissive terms and views of the people they stole land and life from. I've had an issue with this since young, even 9 or 10, for some reason."

You sound white.

Look man, I've spent a lot of time among Indians. 'Indian' is a word they themselves use to collectively describe the indigenous peoples of the North American continent. If you're talking about a particular tribe, use the name of the tribe. Or even better, learn some words and phrases in their language.

May the Creator bless you and protect you, Aho!
Daniel

Mary D
(hikinggranny) - MLife

Locale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
Does Clothing Count? on 04/13/2013 11:38:03 MDT Print View

Some years ago, the late mystery writer Tony Hillerman was part of a panel discussion among New Mexico Indians (Hillerman was an honorary member of the Navajo Nation). He asked the other participants whether they preferred to be called Indians or Native Americans. The response was that his fellow panel members weren't "native," they just immigrated quite a few thousand years before the Europeans arrived. One member added that he was just thankful that Columbus wasn't looking for Turkey!

Back to our regularly scheduled programming. I list the stuff I wear or carry for a number of reasons: First, I want to be sure I don't have any unnecessary duplication between the two categories of clothing worn and clothing carried.. Second, my bum knee and my deformed feet (my weak points) have to carry everything on me, not just my pack. Third, my most significant weight savings the past few years, except shelter, have been in the items I wear or carry (boots to trail runners and clunky aluminum trekking poles to carbon fiber poles). These weight savings did make a considerable difference! Fourth, my gear list is also my check-off list for trips. If I have an overnight trip to the trailhead and don't wear my hiking clothing to travel in, I'm liable to leave my it behind (I did that once and had to spend half a day shopping).

YMMV, of course!

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Screw kilts, I'm bringing back the loincloth! on 04/13/2013 21:05:00 MDT Print View

Indians...

DNA research has come a long way in the past 5 years.

The science is here to explain it. High level summary. Native American Indians, Canadian First People, south American Indians. They have a genetic trail. 6 waves of migrations from east Asia. Some over the arctic alaska land bridge, some by sea on the pacific ocean. Just like the Japanese Tsunami wreckage washed up 3 months later on the US west coast.

But the interesting thing is about 10,000+ years ago, the Indians from India, similar to the Roma indian gypsies, went north to China, further north to Russia, mixed with the locals then moved a little further north then east to the Americas.

Then with the Spaniards in North America, that brought in a cocktail of the genetic Moors (arabs) to the mix of the Chinese and Hindu indians to what is now known as the the Native Americans Indians.

Weirdness is that some Mexicans genetic tests came out with Russians ancestry, before the lab adjusted for the variance.

Even stranger is that native american indians have some ancester roots to Hindu India. Sort of explains how Columbus jumped to that eroneous conclusion.

Testing is a lot cheaper now, about $50. They send you a qtip to swab the inside of your mouth.

Edited by RogerDodger on 04/13/2013 21:14:56 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Indians with european ancestry on 04/13/2013 21:18:28 MDT Print View

Ready a study a while back where some Indians out east are likely descendants of Europeans. The theory is that some crossed the ocean in a primitive boats and slept on ice flow. I'm going to try and find it as it was pretty interesting and I wouldn't mind re reading it.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Kilts Vs. Loincloths. on 04/13/2013 21:21:16 MDT Print View

Daniel,
I think you may have started a new trend among FORMER kilt wearers! Love how Mr. Connery pairs the loin cloth with a new pair of Solomon S-Lab boots!

sean

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/13/2013 21:23:03 MDT.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Hollow log on 04/13/2013 22:28:22 MDT Print View

All you white people with your DNA testing. Ask any Kiowa where his tribe came from, and he'll tell you they came out into the world from a hollow log. And if you think that's weird, ask a Navajo how they got here! It puts the book of Genesis to shame.

And that Sean Connery picture is hawt!

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Hollow log on 04/13/2013 22:52:49 MDT Print View

I saw 'hollow log' and thought it was gonna be about ditching a tent and sleeping in a hollow log.

Nope

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re: Hollow log on 04/13/2013 22:57:29 MDT Print View

No way! Bears look for grubs in hollow logs. I don't want a bear thinking I'm the biggest grub ever!

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
shorts on 04/13/2013 23:33:15 MDT Print View

I like cargo shorts with pockets, because I like to keep my ziplock with TP in them, and my map, and my camera .

Its a ~5.5 oz penalty I gladly carry. I think mine weigh 9 oz, versus about 3.5 oz for running shorts.

Yes, it counts in FSO, it has an effect on you too. Does it make my pack lighter, yep. All together about 6 oz lighter.

But if my pack weighs 7-8 lbs, im not worried about that 6 oz. Those are items I need frequently, or dont want to dig thru pack for when I do need them.


I, am the only person who knows, and who cares, what MY pack weighs.

Edited by livingontheroad on 04/13/2013 23:34:18 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: shorts on 04/13/2013 23:35:34 MDT Print View

MB yer killin me! After two pages every thread is supposed to devolve into chaff!

Whats all this 'on topic' discussion?!?

Jk jk

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: shorts on 04/14/2013 00:15:51 MDT Print View

In cycling and mountain biking, it is noted the packed weight versus pocket/ shoe aka moving weight.

5 extra lbs in a pocket moving along the knee is considered moving weight that gets picked up and dropped everytime the knee moves.

Versus packed weight is stable.