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dave e
(hipass) - F

Locale: Los Angeles
Caldera cone vs MYOG? on 04/05/2013 21:09:06 MDT Print View

So i like the idea of the Caldera sytems but at 80$ just for a windscreen and accessories(sidewinder)??This doesnt include the pot even-i wont pay ransom for ti pot either...i think.
Which makes me wonder how hard is it to make a similar system from scratch?I have no problem buying the sidewinder if somebody can explain the complexity that brings the seemingly high price.Ditto for the GramCracker which at 15bux is begging for a homemade solution no?Im not cheap but these prices make me wonder.What am i missing here?
Im interested in using it with esbit fuel.I have a 2 liter aluminum Open Country pot-i eat large volumes.My other quest is for food dehydrator so maybe i can use smaller pot.
I know,many questions and bitching of sorts but just trying to figure some sanity.

Jon Fong
(jonfong) - F - M

Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR
Re: Caldera cone vs MYOG? on 04/05/2013 21:57:32 MDT Print View

Did you look at the Open Country kit? <$60 complete.

http://www.traildesigns.com/stoves/caldera-sidewinder-system

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Caldera cone vs MYOG? on 04/05/2013 21:57:40 MDT Print View

Tons of videos on YouTube for conical windscreens, Caldera clones.

Brian Green's blog has instructions for a Gram Crakeresque on it.

You'll need to go titanium if burning wood. Aluminum flashing will suffice otherwise.

Trail Designs prices reflect the time and effort for a handmade product. From conception to production. They still don't earn enough to quit their day jobs.

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: Caldera cone vs MYOG` on 04/05/2013 23:08:25 MDT Print View

"Im not cheap but these prices make me wonder.What am i missing here?"

They do make really high quality stuff and have awesome customer service. Well worth the cost to me.

But certainly MYOG if you want. Keep track of your time and when you are done, report back with the costs and the time spent. If you like doing MYOG, time spent doesn't matter. But if you are just trying to save money it does.

I used to have a lot of free time and I made bio-diesel for my tuck. I don't have the time to spare so I no longer do it. I posted this before:

Friend: So how much does it cost you to make?
Me: Around a buck a gallon.
Friend: What if you factor in your time?
Me: Uh, $75 per gallon.

dave e
(hipass) - F

Locale: Los Angeles
vv on 04/05/2013 23:33:28 MDT Print View

Thanx for the info.
i know people often dont get properly compensated even when something looks simple to make ie i woud never fathom to make a tarptent nor how a profit is to be made at $250.
I need to check out the TD website more thoroughly because idid find a cone for 34$.The gram cracker is puzzling but i guess that is the cost of ti-ditto for the sidewinder cone?The sidewinder also includes an alc stove and the gram cracker.I will check out some of the suggestions here for myog.Then maybe i will buy the caldera system anyway.

James Castleberry
(Winterland76)
Caldera Cone vs. MYOG on 04/06/2013 05:56:40 MDT Print View

I have a Caldera Keg GVP and find that boils enough water for a two-person freeze-dried meal pack. Do you eat more than that? It's $60 and a sweet esbit setup. I can totally relate to the TD sticker shock, but still fair prices for the excellent quality and light weight and made in USA.

Harald Hope
(hhope) - M

Locale: East Bay
diy, cost, about $2 on 04/06/2013 11:49:15 MDT Print View

Zen Stoves, bottom of page for cone calculator.

You can buy aluminum flashing by the foot, a foot wide should do it if I remember right, at Ace hardware, 12" high costs 89 cents a foot. Important: they coat flashing material with a sort of plastic type coating, so it's a good idea to sand it a bit to get that stuff loosened up, and the first burn will vaporize that sanded material, so don't do it inside, until it's burned off. You can also burn it beforehand by passing it over a stove gas burner if you have gas stove, ventilated of course, then sand it down with emery cloth.

The main thing to watch for is avoiding stoves that burn too hot, they will roast the top edge and ruin it, so you need the most efficient type stove you can make or get.

If you add 1/2" to each end and fold it over so you can slide the two parts together, you get a nice easy to assemble unit. But make sure your stove is burning very slowly before you start, I have usually ended roasting my flashing to a crisp because the stoves were too hot for a cone.

Re the time it takes to make this stuff, that's a positive, not a negative, it's time I'm not working, and it's a much better thing to do than work as far as I'm concerned. Ie, that's what hobby's are for.

Ignore the stuff about the patents, if you are making a copy for yourself, and not selling it, it doesn't matter at all, I know zen stoves put that in there just because they felt they had to for legal reasons, but in the real world, it doesn't matter. As with free/open source software, the issue actually only kicks in on distribution of the work. Plus, as zen stoves noted, some of the current patents granted were created using the data on this very zen stoves page, only nobody thought to search out for prior art, so the generally sloppy and lazy US patent office granted the patents without really checking into it, just as they do all the time with software patents.

Edited by hhope on 04/06/2013 11:57:58 MDT.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
The price of QUALITY on 04/06/2013 12:58:07 MDT Print View

Certainly MYOG projects are to be encouraged. If you have the time and talent go for it.

BUT... think of Trail Designs quality as many components that demand a fair price.

1. DESIGN> lots of testing and improvements along the way to final design

2. MATERIALS> Trail Designs chooses the best materials for the intended use

3. FABRICATION> The quality of TD products is the best. Ex. the dovetail joint for their Ti cones. Can YOU make a joint like that?

SO, if you're doing a MYOG "Caldera Clone" remember who did the heavy lifting of design in the first place. Are you SURE your pot will sit the proper distance above your alky stove? your ESBIT holder? Will your cone joint stay in position? etc.

I love MYOG projects myself. Usually mine are more "modding" projects, like my winterized Scarp 2. And sometimes a MYOG is the seed of a new or better product,some even resulting in a cottage industry.

As I said about MYOG, "Go for it." but do so knowing why a (U.S.) manufacturer has their price point. Offshore products are another matter altogether. (Don't get me started. You know how I get.)

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Caldera Cone vs. MYOG on 04/06/2013 15:47:31 MDT Print View

Yeah, can't argue with you about the price. If you're good with your hands, why not go for it? There are tons of templates and stuff out there.

I will however say that the stuff from Trail Designs is good stuff. I have three setups: 2 Caldera Cones and 1 Ti-Tri Sidewinder. I got my first couple off of gear swap, and they weren't too bad on price. I've met Lee and Russ who are two of the principals involved (I haven't met Rand except via email). Lee and Russ have a lot of product design and engineering expertise, and they've tested the heck out of their stuff. I've run their 12-10 stove at over 10,000 feet and had nearly the same performance as I got at less than 1,000 feet elevation. That's a freakin' well tuned stove.

They usually sell a set: cone, alcohol stove, and "Caldera Caddy" (carrying case). The thing has a high degree of windproofness. I think this (windproofness) may be the least appreciated aspect of the Caldera Cones. When other guys are struggling with home-made set ups, this thing keeps on truckin'.

Anyway, if it isn't obvious, I really like the Caldera Cone/Ti-Tri system. But you can do reasonably well with an MYOG system, particularly if you're good with your hands. If you have the time, why not? Your time is free to you. You just have to pay the Trail Designs guys for their time. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Caldera cone vs MYOG? on 04/06/2013 17:16:24 MDT Print View

If you want to know more about Trail Designs you might like this interview.Their stove systems and customer service is worth every penny.

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
myog on 04/06/2013 17:20:19 MDT Print View

I made myself a myog fissure style ti-tri. It took a bit of research but patience but turned out pretty well


kit1
cone in pot1
lid1
lid in pot1
cone1
pot in cone1

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: myog on 04/06/2013 17:26:57 MDT Print View

Jason, don't all of those rivets sticking out cause problems? Like, punching holes in the carry bag.

--B.G.--

Loki Cuthbert
(lokbot) - F

Locale: Portland, OR
you don't have to be very handy to make a cone. on 04/06/2013 17:38:14 MDT Print View

I own a ti-tri for my evernew 800 mug and it's definitely a great system. My biggest complaint would be how bulky it is. If I was going to buy another system it would definitely be a sidewinder version so it could fit in a pot.

I made an aluminum fissure caldera clone for my 1 liter snow peak pot. it was a pretty simple project and has great efficiency and while testing at sea level it performs comparably to my real caldera cone. I'll definitely test it more when I'm out on my next trip at higher elevation.

it's a pretty simple project if you already have a pair of tin snips, a standard hole punch, and can get a couple of feet of aluminum flashing just give it a shot. I made mine in less than an hour. You could make a standard sized cone that isn't split that won't fit in your pot.

The MYOG final product doesn't have the refinement and beauty of the trail designs, but the joints are solid and easy to slide together and the fit was perfect. I plan on calculating the heights to make a sidewinder version to play with. If I like it enough I may try my hand at working with titanium foil to make a wood burning version, but I'd probably just buy one from trail designs.

I think that you should try MYOG one up and see how you like it. If you love it and want one that is a bit more refined, buy a trail designs one for you favorite pot. Then make your own for all of your other pots on the cheap.

here are some pics of my cone.

-Lokiclone in potclone out of potclone inner jointclone outer jointclone assembledclone with pot

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
no on 04/06/2013 17:39:18 MDT Print View

Bob, check the second picture. It rolls up to fit in the cook pot and then everything goes in the sack. the rivets are not sharp anyway..

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Caldera cone vs MYOG? on 04/06/2013 17:47:52 MDT Print View

Nice looking MYOG jobs!

Jason, Loki, if you don't mind my asking, what are the weights of your respective cones?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Loki Cuthbert
(lokbot) - F

Locale: Portland, OR
weight on 04/06/2013 17:59:12 MDT Print View

myog cone for 1 L pot comes in at 2 oz (60 grams) my trail designs for 800 ml pot comes in at 1 3/4 oz (50 grams)




-Loki

Edited by lokbot on 04/06/2013 18:01:00 MDT.

Nick Larsen
(stingray4540) - F

Locale: South Bay
Re: Caldera Cone vs. MYOG on 04/07/2013 14:31:52 MDT Print View

Yeah, I'm just gonna quote James.
"I have a Caldera Keg GVP and find that boils enough water for a two-person freeze-dried meal pack. Do you eat more than that? It's $60 and a sweet esbit setup. I can totally relate to the TD sticker shock, but still fair prices for the excellent quality and light weight and made in USA."

After factoring my time(of which I have little) it would have cost me more than $60 to MYOG.

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
weight on 04/07/2013 19:31:18 MDT Print View

Thanks Jim

I actually made a Ti version and aluminium version.

THe Ti version seen above is 1.9oz and the alum version is 1.6oz.

Total weight with my evernew eca265 900ml, cone, custom ti lid and cuben sack is 5.1oz

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: weight on 04/09/2013 14:59:23 MDT Print View

Ti version seen above is 1.9oz and the alum version is 1.6oz.
The Ti version is heavier than the Al? Interesting. Fairly heavy gauge or a design change?

Total weight with my evernew eca265 900ml, cone, custom ti lid and cuben sack is 5.1oz
That's pretty sweet!

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
Re: Re: weight on 04/09/2013 15:15:31 MDT Print View

Yes I was a little confused by this too. I ordered .005 Ti off ebay. I'm have no way of telling if that is what i actually received. although im inclined to think its not because I made a Ti windscreen for a Fosters can similar specs to Suluk46's and mine weighed about 10g more..
As for the alum.. I just found a piece of thin flashing in my garage. Based on its feel I think its much thinner than what one would normally use.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: weight on 04/09/2013 15:21:50 MDT Print View

If you have two pieces of metal, one aluminum and one titanium, and if the dimensions are identical, then the titanium piece will be heavier. However, titanium is generally much stronger than aluminum. Therefore, the titanium piece can be much thinner for equivalent strength, and that is what makes the titanium piece lighter. Then, if the application requires lots of heat tolerance, the titanium piece will win on that. The aluminum piece has a certain amount of heat tolerance, and that is all.

For example, they made the SR-71 Blackbird skin out of titanium, not aluminum or steel.

--B.G.--

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: weight on 04/09/2013 17:36:48 MDT Print View

Yes I was a little confused by this too. I ordered .005 Ti off ebay. I'm have no way of telling if that is what i actually received. although im inclined to think its not because I made a Ti windscreen for a Fosters can similar specs to Suluk46's and mine weighed about 10g more..
As for the alum.. I just found a piece of thin flashing in my garage. Based on its feel I think its much thinner than what one would normally use.
Sounds like it's the gauge then. Well, for 1/3 of an ounce, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It'll probably hold up very well. I've placed a pan up on top of my titanium cone and done eggs and such. Works well. Titanium is also better with wood.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Caldera cone vs MYOG? on 04/09/2013 20:27:20 MDT Print View

Make one yourself based on using a $7.00 Kmart grease pot. Design the height of the screen to fit inside the pot. I can recommend a burner to use inside it, PM me for the info.

Paul Ashton
(PDA123) - F

Locale: Eastern Mass
Cone windshield on 04/10/2013 14:52:23 MDT Print View

If you use a stove which is also a stand, such as the white box, or Bios stoves, thenthe windscreen does not need to be so heavy. Also applues when using butane cartridge stoves. Here's a "how to" for a clip on cone windscreen - lighter, and packs small.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6C19jakM9Q

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Cone windshield on 04/11/2013 01:15:50 MDT Print View

Well, that windscreen in the video is OK for an upright canister, but it will never be as good of a protection against wind as a windscreen that sits on the ground. Wind can sweep in under the edge and create all kinds of vortices. Of course a suspended windscreen (like the one in the video) is a lot better than nothing.

Then there's another issue: Efficiency. A Caldera Cone doesn't just protect you from wind. No, no, no. There's a whole lot more going on. A Caldera Cone entrains hot exhaust gasses and channels them up the sides of the pot, transferring more heat to the pot. A Caldera Cone also traps to a significant degree heat under the pot and prevents convective heat loss in a way that an open bottomed windscreen (like the one in the video) cannot. Thirdly, a Caldera Cone only allows air inflows through openings in the base of the windscreen. The Caldera Cone via these inlet holes and the exit holes along the top of the cone controls the overall flow of air in such a way that more efficient burning takes place. Lastly, the Caldera Cone is built such that one side of the cone has the inlet holes. If you turn the inlet holes away from the wind, then you get some significant wind protection while still having the controlled air flow that makes the Caldera Cone so efficient. No open bottomed windscreen can begin to equal this.

In short, the Caldera Cone is a very sophisticated, well tuned piece of equipment that a suspended windscreen has no hope of matching. Don't look at a Caldera Cone as just a windscreen. A Caldera Cone is a total air flow control and exhaust entrainment system as well as an extremely stable pot support -- in addition to being a windscreen.

The suspended windscreen is great for an upright canister stove -- you do NOT want to use a Caldera Cone with an upright canister stove, but for an alcohol stove the Caldera Cone is vastly superior in terms of wind protection, pot stability, and efficiency. Sure, you might save some weight with a suspended windscreen, but you'd lose efficiency, stability, and windproofness.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 04/11/2013 01:25:38 MDT.