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Canister failure: has this happened to you?
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Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/05/2013 15:38:07 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/11/2013 12:38:53 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 15:42:00 MDT Print View

That happened to me once

I just left stove on canister until I used it up

I think it's just a bad canister, not something you did

I'm guessing I've used 30 canisters so 1 in 30 had this failure

Rex Sanders
(Rex) - M

Locale: Central California Coast
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 15:55:28 MDT Print View

A few days into a week long trip, I had a canister develop a slow leak when the little valve didn't close completely.

By the time I discovered the problem ("what's that funny smell coming from my pack?"), I'd lost most of my fuel.

Cut the trip short, since my dinners required cooking, and wood fires were prohibited.

This was with a recently-purchased, well-known brand name of canister (which I don't recall now), and a nearly-new Snow Peak stove. And no, I'm not particularly rough on gear. I'd been using canister stoves of one kind or another for about 20 years at that point.

I switched to Esbit.

-- Rex

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 16:01:26 MDT Print View

It's only happened to me once in all the times I've used canister stoves, but it sure got my attention in a big way.

You can leave your stove on and just use the stove's valve to control the gas -- or you can just try again. I found that simply putting the stove on again and taking it off was enough to get the valve to seat.

All of this brings home a very important practice: Never put on or take off a canister near an open flame or anything hot enough to ignite the gas.

I wrote a post related to this subject: Canister Gas Stove Reliability & Maintenance.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 04/05/2013 16:07:56 MDT.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/05/2013 16:57:08 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/11/2013 12:38:21 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 16:58:17 MDT Print View

Good points Jim.

Raymond Estrella
(rayestrella) - MLife

Locale: Northern Minnesota
has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 17:44:58 MDT Print View

I have had one Lindahl valve canister stick open on me (out of maybe a hundred or so) and one PowerMax. That was the big surprise as it was winter and I needed all my fuel. I stuck the end back on and kept it there until the next morning. I knew I had enough fuel once I got past breakfast (as I was with my wife I needed plenty of fuel in the morning;-) because I had another canister for the next day's cooking and snow melting chores. If solo it may have been more worrisome.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 17:49:21 MDT Print View

Yeah, that has happened. I used about 15 canisters before on them. One was a fast leak, such as you describe. The Lindal valves are not an expensive item and can do that on occasion. As Jim was saying, this is usually recoverable by simply replacing and removing the stove. It did not happen again.

The other was a slow leak as Rex described...but I didn't notice the leak till evening, soo, I cannot say if this could have been reset.

Stephen M
(stephenm) - MLife

Locale: The Great Lakes Bay Region
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 18:08:32 MDT Print View

I was on a Bpl meet last and the Msr canister one of the guys had failed.
Ever since then I test each can when it comes in to house and before I go on a trip.

Daryl and Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 19:39:41 MDT Print View

I leave me stove attached to the canister throughout any trip. Gives me two chances of preventing a leak. If the stove "off" valve doesn't work I can remove the canister and then, hopefully, the canister's off mechanism will work. Both would have to fail for me to lose all the gas in the canister.

All of this depends on my ears (weak) or nose (strong) detecting the leak in the first place.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 20:06:26 MDT Print View

I had a canister valve stick open and slowly leak on a very cold evening. My only recourse was to screw it back onto the stove, which worked. Once I got the canister warm, the canister's valve worked again.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/05/2013 20:22:27 MDT Print View

A different failure I had was, my exponent F1 ultralight started slow leak when it got real cold.

I used the stove for evening meal. Made sure it was screwed onto canister very tight and the needle valve tightly closed. Then, over night when it got cold, it started leaking between canister and stove.

First time it did this I figured I just didn't screw it on tight enough, then I made sure it was tightly screwed from then on. Happened two more times.

This failure coupled with leaky Lindal valve = no solution

Nancy Twilley
(goodcaver2)

Locale: STL
canister failure on 04/05/2013 20:36:53 MDT Print View

I had this same thing happen last year in the Rockies with a snowpeak canister-- first the flame started expanding to the area where the stove screws into the canister. We got the stove shut off and canister unscrewed, at which time the gas started leaking out super fast. We tried to screw it back in but to no effect -- left the canister away from camp and let it leak out.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: canister failure on 04/05/2013 20:46:10 MDT Print View

What stove?

That's the other thing that happened with my Exponent F1 Ultralight - leaked between stove and canister and flamed up a bit. Melted some cosmetic pieces a little. I just quickly blew it out, then screwed it on tighter.

Nancy Twilley
(goodcaver2)

Locale: STL
what stove on 04/05/2013 20:59:02 MDT Print View

I think it was a snowpeak giga stove -- not my stove -- I actually have the F1 and haven't had this problem (yet) with it.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Why I don't use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 07:24:51 MDT Print View

IIRC, I was on the AT last summer and I heard a story about a disabled guy who runs a hiker hostel. He and his friends/family contribute a lot to maintaining that section of the AT.

Story I heard was, his leaking canister stove hit a spark and blew up, and his leg or legs were amputated and he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

So, I don't use canister stoves.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/06/2013 07:25:21 MDT.

Paul Mason
(dextersp1) - F
Bring 2 on 04/06/2013 07:52:53 MDT Print View

If you estimate you might need over 110g - bring 2 110g cans.

I also put a little grease on the threads and o ring of the stove (keep it clean, of course). I forgot what type of grease.

A couple of things I try to keep in mind is to not tighten too much and gently screw and unscrew the stove holding it close to bottom of the stove. I think that helps the threads integrity.

I think I do sit too close to the stove while boiling water. That is something this thread has reminded me not to do.

Edited by dextersp1 on 04/06/2013 07:59:41 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Why I use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 08:24:03 MDT Print View

I just want to eat sometimes. You can't beat the ease of use. I've only had trouble with the valves on those big Coleman car camping canisters leaking. With the old pierce the canister style stoves I did have one leak in my pack. Standing on the trail wondering what the funny smell was...

IF I took Max's appraoch to life I would never do anything, go anywhere, have any fun. Geez. And you should not spread stories based on here say. This is how urban legends start.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Why I use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 08:44:36 MDT Print View

IF I took Max's appraoch to life I would never do anything, go anywhere, have any fun. Geez. And you should not spread stories based on here say. This is how urban legends start.

there were all these people who walked their dogs ... but unfortunately some of them got hit by crazy drivers, others got shot, some got robbed, and others got attacked by bigger more vicious dogs

happens every day

i should stop wokking the dogs ;)

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Sheltered? on 04/06/2013 08:47:16 MDT Print View

My forum profile pic is me lifting a bike over my head at the top of a mountain after over 800 miles of a 1,500 mile unsupported trip... I don't think I'm really starving myself. ;)

I just use a wood stove, the Vargo Titanium Hex. Rather not blow up while hiking.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/06/2013 08:47:55 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Sheltered? on 04/06/2013 09:08:14 MDT Print View

20 years, 6000 boils, no canister fires.

You are being extremely neurotic. This thread isn't about fires or canisters blowing up. The OP didn't catch fire.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Don't misunderstand me... on 04/06/2013 09:40:19 MDT Print View

Nothing tires me out faster than BPL'ers leaping to the gallows when I have an opinion that differs from theirs, but I'll bite.



The OP did remark on an issue that another user connected to fires. "Reminds me not to remove my canister near an open flame."

It's obvious, but I'm sure a lot of people have ignored the obvious before. And in that one moment of carelessness, there's the threat of a gas explosion in a pressurized metal canister. Oops.


I'm not saying "Canister stoves are dangerous and explosive, and you shouldn't use them."

I'm saying "I can be clumsy and forgetful as the next guy, so I'd rather use a different stove."

If you want to use it, go for it, but don't tell me I'm wrong for deciding it's a risk. It is.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Don't misunderstand me... on 04/06/2013 09:54:16 MDT Print View

Well, a spark from your wood fire could jump out and burn your clothes, or set fire to the woods. There's a reason they aren't allowed in certain areas.

You could knock over your alcohol stove and burn your clothes or set fire to the woods.
You could be hit by lightening and burn your clothes or set fire to the woods.
You could be a pyromaniac and just like to set fire to the woods.

Max I love reading your posts...you try so hard but your idealism, self-assuredness and overall, well, self-righteousness (and I don't mean that in a bad way...) always seem to get the better of you.

My favorite quote from my mom when I graduated from college: hurry up and leave home now while you still know everything!!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Why I use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 10:12:57 MDT Print View

I had one other canister failure - only for Pocket Rocket

The distance from the Lindal valve to the top of the rim is a little greater for one canister

The Pocket Rocket has a normal O-ring plus a washer between the rim of the canister and the stove. After it warms up a little and expands, the pin on the stove that pushes the Lindal valve moves out a little so it no longer opens the valve. I have to screw the stove on tighter to get it to work, but over-tightening is not good. Removing that outer washer eliminates the problem. Maybe I'll just leave that washer off.

Regarding safety of canister stoves - you do have to contantly watch them or they might explode, but this is unlikely. White gas stoves are more dangerous. Alcohol stoves have a flaming liquid which could be dangerous if it got on you or your stuff, plus the flame is somewhat invisible. Esbit is a noxious substance with poisonous fumes and soot, plus could start a forest fire. Nothing is perfect. No stove would be pretty good, but I like some hot food in the morning if it's cold.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Don't misunderstand me... on 04/06/2013 10:30:05 MDT Print View

Max, this isn't about you agreeing or disagreeing with users experience. However, you have no experience in miss threaded canisters or exploding stoves. So what could have added to this thread apart from scaring the crap out of newly lightweight backpackers coming to BPL to learn?

Please remember that:

Not every thread is a.) Chaff related and b.) About you.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Canister Stoves Will Blow Your Face Off! on 04/06/2013 10:47:01 MDT Print View

Be WARNED.

I once heard from a guy about a guy that that knew someone that lost his face and eyelids. The canister didn't seal properly and some static from his fleece jacket ignited it into a roaring flamethrower, right at his face. Shrapnel from the canister scalped him.

Long story short, his face was gone, the hair on the top of head never grew back, and his eyes dried up and shriveled into raisins without their eyelids. His wife left him (with the children, they couldn't bear to look at him), and he now lives in a small trailer outside of Hesperia, CA stockpiling ammo, drinking heavily, yelling at the mailman, and listening to Michael Crichton books on tape and InfoWars podcasts all day long.

Personally, I've been VERY VERY VERY lucky.
15+ years of using canister stoves and I've never had a single problem, ever.

But this is hardly the norm, you probably will never be as lucky as I am, and I have been known to live on the edge.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: Canister Stoves Will Blow Your Face Off! on 04/06/2013 10:54:40 MDT Print View

Lol.....

On a serious note, sure I have had leaky canisters. It happens. In most cases it is because the canister has a leaky valve - which gives a slow and smelly leak - little danger. The others I have seen someone was screwing a stove on the canister but doing it sideways, so the canister was not upright - and they mis threaded it.

Canister stoves are overall quite safe! So are the canisters. Any stove has a bit of danger - it is fire and fuel after all. ANY STOVE. ANY FUEL.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Canister Stoves Will Blow Your Face Off! on 04/06/2013 10:57:53 MDT Print View

"But this is hardly the norm, you probably will never be as lucky as I am, and I have been known to live on the edge."

No edge for me. I prefer to occasionally live in CAPS! I don't do it very often, so when I do live in CAPS, it's important.....

Edited by idester on 04/06/2013 10:58:47 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Canister Stoves Will Blow Your Face Off! on 04/06/2013 11:09:45 MDT Print View

From the brilliant mind of Craig.

Curious if the fella plays the banjo?

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Whatever! on 04/06/2013 11:24:40 MDT Print View

Jennifer, every accident you just described can be put out with stamping and water bottles. A pressurized canister explosion is different.

I don't really care about stoves, honestly. It was an interesting story and I like posting things in a conversation that haven't been said. It lets the conversation go in interesting directions (and it worked; a new backpacker saw my post and then 15 posts about the overall safety, which might not have gotten discussed at all if we hadn't talked about the worst case scenario). I hardly think a canister stove failure is irrelevant to a thread called "Canister Stove Failure."

Plus, we reminded 50+ people not to take their stove canister off while having a cigar. Bonus!

Some call it idealism, others call it enthusiasm. I call it "Being Max Dilthey" ;)

Edited by mdilthey on 04/06/2013 11:26:06 MDT.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Whatever! on 04/06/2013 11:38:44 MDT Print View

Every time I go through the drive-through restaurants they get my order wrong. No matter who is working, and no matter which restaurant it is. Every time.

I'm starting to think its a conspiracy against me.









Of course, it could just be the way I order.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Ha! on 04/06/2013 12:52:53 MDT Print View

In this thread: Two backhanded passive-aggressive insults at Senõr Dilthey. Everyone seems to be just smitten with my posting history.

I'm a liberal 23-year old, East Coast, highly opinionated, dangerously vocal, and woefully headstrong. Of course it's me, was there ever a question?

Doesn't matter; having a great time, learning a ton. Another day, another post!

Edited by mdilthey on 04/06/2013 12:53:22 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Ha! on 04/06/2013 13:26:01 MDT Print View

"Everyone seems to be just smitten with my posting history. "

Ah, Max, not nearly as smitten as you so obviously are with yourself.....

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Why I don't use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 13:40:02 MDT Print View

Story I heard was, his leaking canister stove hit a spark and blew up, and his leg or legs were amputated and he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

So, I don't use canister stoves.
Max, I don't mean to disprespect your choices (and what the heck, wood stove cooking is actually a lot of fun), but general question to all: How "big" is the danger with canister stoves? Realistically, it's pretty small. Yes, something bad could happen. And the bridge you drive over every morning on the way to work cold spontaneously collapse some day while you're on it. Both are pretty unlikely.

I've used gas stoves since the 1970's. I've had one canister failure. Even with the old puncture type canisters (which really are more dangerous than the modern valved canisters), I never had a failure. They're pretty darned reliable.

Having said that, follow best practices. Don't put on or take off a canister near a heat source. Do NOT leave the canister attached to the stove in transit unless you have to; if the valve gets jarred open in your pack, it could be hazardous (although most gas leaks dissipate harmlessly into the air). Don't use a full 360 degree windscreen with an upright canister stove, and always monitor the canister's temperature with your hand.

So, I disrespect no one's choices, but the objective danger from a canister stove is pretty low. There's a whole lot of reason's not to choose a canister stove, so if you use something else, by all means have at it. Wood (where ethical and practical) is definitely the most interesting and fun of all the major stove fuel types.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Why I don't use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 14:48:07 MDT Print View

This thread = too funny! :D










...and yet...so sad. *sigh*

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
It's the internet. on 04/06/2013 15:46:34 MDT Print View

The real issue wasn't that I shared a story about an exploding canister stove.

The real issue is that two weeks ago, I had a conversation about backpack padding that people got fired up about, and yesterday, I called out a group of BPL'ers for profiling homosexuals and now I'm the "idealistic hothead" that users like Douglacide can't hardly contain their glee about.

People love scapegoats.

This is what it feels like: In real life, I'm a highly respected outdoor leader and people take me seriously. My lecture on self-arrests saved a kid's leg on Camel's Hump last season, and I've got a 22-student trip to Maine next weekend that I designed and executed myself. I have a real voice.

On here, refusing to go along with a hivemind all the time means I'm basically kicked out of the club, and I don't even try asking questions anymore. :P

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: It's the internet. on 04/06/2013 16:15:53 MDT Print View

Hi, Max,

Sorry, but I missed your backpack padding post (but I can see how that would be a hot button topic). ;) I'm working 7 days a week right now and don't have a lot of time (just waiting on a crashed database right now so I've got a moment). In other words (and I don't know if you were specifically calling me out), my comments have been purely about the matter at hand.

You're leading a trip? Awesome. Hope you'll post a TR (and I hope I have time to read it. Too much work right now. Ugh. But I need the money.)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Don't Worry on 04/06/2013 16:39:00 MDT Print View

The few negative nancies that go around slipping burns at me every day know who they are, Jim. I'm not worried about it. You didn't really do anything.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Don't Worry on 04/06/2013 16:44:00 MDT Print View

OK, cool. I'm pretty brain dead right now. Glad I didn't come across the wrong way.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Herbert Sitz
(hes)

Locale: Pacific NW
Re: Why I don't use canister stoves: on 04/06/2013 16:59:41 MDT Print View

"I was on the AT last summer and . . .
Story I heard was, his leaking canister stove hit a spark and blew up, and his leg or legs were amputated and he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life."

I'm not real confident that any "story" told on the AT (or PCT or any other xxT) is true (I remember the "telephone game" from when I was a kid). On the other hand, I would like to hear if anyone has actually been injured by a canister stove. Anybody? Anybody know firsthand of anybody?

Edited by hes on 04/06/2013 17:01:02 MDT.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: It's the internet. on 04/06/2013 17:03:03 MDT Print View

Max, the real issue has nothing to do with any one particular instance.


I'll be sitting with Doug by the fireplace drinking scotch, listening to Abraham Lincoln, Mickey Mouse, Einstein, and George Carlin discuss the meaning of life. You're welcome to join us.

Edited by T.L. on 04/06/2013 17:06:58 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Don't Worry on 04/06/2013 17:04:00 MDT Print View

Aw Max, you're not kicked out of the club. You're just talking to a bunch of geezers (and yes, I include my own menopausal self in that category) who like to smack around young whipper snappers who seem very sure of their choices.

One of the defining characteristics of "wisdom" is the realization that you don't know much, even regarding things you are supposedly an "expert" about. You just seem to have a knack for being righter than everyone else...or just coming across that way.

And honestly I don't mean this to be mean, but just to share my observations as to why you seem to get in a lot of trouble here ;)

As well as most of us really, really, really need to get out and hike. Really.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: Re: Don't Worry on 04/06/2013 17:11:24 MDT Print View

22 student trip? Eek........

There are days (99% of them) I am glad I am not 23 years old anymore. You get poked because you are too easy to mess with.

Oh yeah, and who wants to be an expert? The one who is an "expert" gets noticed when stuff goes wrong. It is why if I EVER disappear and/or get hurt on a hike, my husband is to claim I was a newbie hiker who hated nature. Lol......

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Ha! on 04/06/2013 17:20:40 MDT Print View

The only thing I have learned here is that Max is Spanish. I had no idea.

Ola.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
That's probably it. on 04/06/2013 17:27:09 MDT Print View

I do research as part of my job. I find information on things, confirm accuracy and reliability, and become an "expert" on a subject in hours instead of years. It's part of being freelance.

So, in my hobbies, I'm either really right or really, really wrong. Since I'm only a pretend expert, I can miss the mark and not realize it. it doesn't happen often, and it doesn't happen at all in my professional life (I could lose my job for being inaccurate.)

That rubs people the wrong way here, even when my intention is to save someone else the legwork of either looking something up or explaining something to someone else. And it's always something stupid, like trying to say durability matters in a rain shell (Hiss! Heretic!)

But I'm always, always repeating the catch-all phrases of "I'm sure I could be wrong" in everything I type. It never matters. Like I said, I'm kind of done asking questions... It's not worth the trouble, really. I still like contributing once in a while and I take the time to PM a few individuals with specific questions.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/06/2013 17:31:48 MDT.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Don't ever try and find out the counter-argument on 04/06/2013 17:37:17 MDT Print View

Oh yeah, and BPL suicide seems to be asking "Why" something is a bad choice. Those threads ALWAYS end in tears, haha.

Jan S
(karl-ton)
Re: That's probably it. on 04/06/2013 17:43:03 MDT Print View

Max

There is a difference between an expert who read things and an expert who has experienced things. Since most people here do not seem to be very young or inexperienced and altogether more on the smart side, I'm not sure they're convinced by book experts (I know I'm not).

Aside from that some posts from you read a bit like an opinion piece in a newspaper. I'm not sure if I'm the only one but reading these always makes me want to burn the newspaper. And the "I'm sure I could be wrong" part is just part of the opinion piece language and I just translate it as: My editor told me I have to write this. Otherwise we could be sued. Just ignore it. I'm right. I read a book on the topic.

Right, back to bending back pack stays.

Edited by karl-ton on 04/06/2013 17:44:42 MDT.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Don't Worry on 04/06/2013 17:52:54 MDT Print View

As well as most of us really, really, really need to get out and hike. Really.
I sure do. Yeesh.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: That's probably it. on 04/06/2013 17:55:47 MDT Print View

See Max, you're doing it again...you've just made my point.

I was a journalist for 15 years before becoming a PT. I was a national and international producer for ABC network news, and my job consisted of producing pieces for World News Tonight, GMA, Nightline...yes, I appreciate that you have to know your stuff before writing a piece, interviewing a subject, whatever. But you know what? You are absolutely NO expert on the material you research. Yeah, you have to know enough to ask good questions, not get sued, convey information in a basic way, etc.

But consider this some career advice: you've got to be open to information, ideas, etc; you have to realize you not only don't know everything, but that in fact you know nothing. Otherwise you just keep fishing for information that validates what you already think you know instead of actually learning something. Always try to prove yourself wrong...otherwise all your reasoning is biased and filtered.

And now I'm going back to learning how to pack my new circuit for its inaugural trip next weekend. Yeah!

Edited by Jenmitol on 04/06/2013 17:56:33 MDT.

Mark Fowler
(KramRelwof) - MLife

Locale: Namadgi
What happens when a canister explodes on 04/06/2013 17:58:06 MDT Print View

I hope never to have a problem with a gas canister but I have seen what happens if one explodes after watching an idiot throw several full canisters into bonfire. As expected they go bang but they do not become a mass of shrapnel. A seam splits and the canister becomes a self propelled object for a few seconds. It lands intact. If it hit you it would hurt but not take off any body parts, and there would be some burnt/singed flesh/clothing.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: That's probably it. on 04/06/2013 18:18:31 MDT Print View

"That rubs people the wrong way here, even when my intention is to save someone else the legwork of either looking something up or explaining something to someone else. And it's always something stupid, like trying to say durability matters in a rain shell (Hiss! Heretic!)"

Max,

Perhaps I can offer a different perspective that you might find useful, or not. In my opinion, very, very few people take issue with what you have to say in these forums. Very, very few people have any issues with being disagreed with. You've played the victim card a few times here already and claim groupthink by others, yet I can't think of a thread I've read where everyone agreed with everyone else. Lots of disagreements on this forum, and you're not picked on for disagreeing. And my word, you're not a scapegoat for anything (not even sure where that one came from).

Some of what you feel on being attacked is really just good natured ribbing - you seem to have a pretty thin skin (this is all my opinion). But I think that most of the negativity from others has nothing to do with what you say, and everything to do with how you say it.

In the short time you've been on these forums, you've started threads and then gotten pissy when people didn't abide by your specific rules when replying; you've told someone about twice your age how they should behave/respond/act; while you don't mind disagreeing with others you don't appreciate people disagreeing with you; and you whine (yes, whine) about how mean some of us are and how under appreciated you are. You also seem to think your opinion is just correct and should kinda be equated to fact.

Even your example above illustrates this: you're not saving someone else the legwork of looking something up or explaining something to someone by saying durability matters in a rain shell. There's no fact in that at all - durability will matter to some and it won't matter to others. It's opinion. And there will be varied opinion on that, just like everything else here.

You just don't seem to realize that (again, in my opinion), too many of your posts simply come off as patronizing, arrogant and pompous. Of course people are going to poke fun and react negatively to that. Many of the folks on this forum have lived significantly more life than you, not to mention have significantly more backpacking experience than you. So when all of your 23 years comes bouncing Tigger-like onto the forums to show us the truth, the way and the light, well, many of us just roll our eyes, and some of us negative nancies just smile and poke poor little Tigger.

If you fail to see or can't admit that you contribute to this problem/issue, then I guess there's not much more I could say. But I'd recommend truly thinking about how you might be coming across to others instead of simply blaming the way people respond to you solely on them.

Lastly, I think 'smug' would have been a much better word choice than 'glee,' but that's just me.

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
Canister failure: has this happened to you?" on 04/06/2013 18:32:31 MDT Print View

Aw geeze come on give Max a break. Like all of us, Max has a style. It doesn't bother me; it's just what it is. In person Max, like all of us, probably comes off completely different than he does on the internet. And anyway, I'm fine with Max's internet persona.

Everyone's piling on like BPL was a creative writing seminar and people were critiquing Max's poetry. And there's more than a whiff of condescension by the "elders" here.

Let Max be!

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: That's probably it. on 04/06/2013 18:35:39 MDT Print View

Nicely done Doug. +1

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you?" on 04/06/2013 18:44:25 MDT Print View

"In person Max, like all of us, probably comes off completely different than he does on the internet."

Sorry Jeffrey, you're wrong. I'm just as much an ass in person as I am on the internet. Ask anyone.

Edited by idester on 04/06/2013 19:57:48 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you?" on 04/06/2013 18:47:45 MDT Print View

True. We've met. I'm just the same everywhere too.

Steven Paris
(saparisor) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/06/2013 18:58:24 MDT Print View

"Sorry Jeffrey, you're wrong. I'm just as much as ass in person as I am on the internet. Ask anyone."

The first time I met Doug at a Trinity Alps GGG trip, I walked up to his tarp and he yelled at me to, "Get off my lawn, punk."

jeffrey armbruster
(book) - M

Locale: Northern California
Canister failure: has this happened to you?" on 04/06/2013 19:04:16 MDT Print View

Hmmm, a patter begins to emerge...I mean, pattern.

Jan S
(karl-ton)
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/06/2013 19:04:47 MDT Print View

"Get off my lawn, punk."

Did he have gnomes around him? They are the universal signal of a mean and evil person.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: It's the internet. on 04/06/2013 19:46:55 MDT Print View

Max once again you tout your "experience" in backpacking as a lot more than it is. What have you actually done? taking college kids car camping is not backpacking experience. Reading it in a book is not experience. Many of these people have done full thru hikes, multiple thru hikes, decades of backpacking. Open your ears and shut your mouth and you'll learn more.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ha! on 04/06/2013 20:18:12 MDT Print View

I'll take Max as an "East Coast, highly opinionated, dangerously vocal, and woefully headstrong" person and not "smitten with himself"

And my BPL membership is worth it just for seeing how things always blow up around Max : )

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Ha! on 04/06/2013 20:41:19 MDT Print View

I'm with Jerry. Max, you're fun because you mean well, you're just really, really young, you think you know a lot, and you don't realize how us old folk (especially the REALLY old folk, like nursing home old folks like Doug) love to tease kids who think they know a lot.

I teach kids your age during clinical rotations and I love it...I get such great enjoyment out of smacking them down and making them feel bad about themselves. Ah, the joys of being a crotchety lady in slippers and a mumu....

Now really, get off my lawn.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
canister valve failure on 04/06/2013 22:10:27 MDT Print View

Oh, and to contribute something to the actual topic. I've had multiple 1lb or whatever propane canisters have their valves not close when using my Coleman stove. I think it's been from over tightening the canister to the connection "arm" that attaches it to the stove. now if i hear it leaking then i just keep the arm connected and leave it sealed like that. never had it happen to a backpacking canister, but i try not to overtighten them anyway.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
"Experts" on 04/06/2013 23:41:26 MDT Print View

As a retired teacher I'm reminded of the saying,"Teaching is appearing to have known all your life what you just learned last night."

Some "experts" outside of education appear to also fall into that category. ;o)

BTW, I never worry about canister performance in cold weather. When the temperature drops below 40 F. I switch to my white gas MSR Dragonfly or my woodburning Caldera Sidewinder/Inferno gassifier stove. No worries and hot fires.

Edited by Danepacker on 04/06/2013 23:44:07 MDT.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
I listen to everything. on 04/07/2013 11:31:45 MDT Print View

I know i'm open to other people's opinions and experience. I try to convey that.

If other people don't get that, they're either reading my posts with a predisposition for disregarding me based on something else, or they're misunderstanding me because I've communicated ineffectively.

And I'm not playing the "victim card." I've seen other people use the same condescension and ridicule against other members, and they don't argue like me- they just leave. That's terrible for the forum, and I'll call it out if I see it. I don't really care if there's some "Respect your Elders" rule I'm breaking; I don't need to react negatively to people who handle themselves maturely.

Thanks Jeffrey, that was kind of what I was thinking.

I feel like I'm in a job evaluation.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: I listen to everything. on 04/07/2013 11:40:47 MDT Print View

Yet again, your post comes across as self riteous and dismissive towards others. You're still more right than others and its everyone else's problem, huh?

"I feel like Im in a job evaluation. "

Saying stuff like this IS playing the victim card!


Max, we do really want to see everyone, including you, get along and be understood, but it feels like a lost cause when the problem has been explained, and nothing changes about your delivery.

Edited by T.L. on 04/07/2013 11:42:42 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: I listen to everything. on 04/07/2013 12:00:52 MDT Print View

Older people have wisdom which is useful to solve problems. But it also results in lack of flexibility, think they know everything

Younger people bring more new ideas and challenge old assumptions, but sometimes have to re-make all the same mistakes

The combination is more productive. People would be wise to respect each other.

Steve B
(geokite) - F

Locale: Southern California
Esbit has poisonous fumes? on 04/07/2013 12:06:57 MDT Print View

jerry adams (retiredjerry) said ways back in this thread:

"Esbit is a noxious substance with poisonous fumes and soot,..."

Do you have any references on that? I know it smells noxious, but that doesn't make it necessarily poisonous.

Steve

Michael Ray
(thaddeussmith) - F
Re: Esbit has poisonous fumes? on 04/07/2013 12:09:59 MDT Print View

from wikipedia:

Esbit's Material Safety Data Sheet states combustion can create formaldehyde, ammonia, nitrogen oxide, hydrogen cyanide and ingestion may cause nausea, vomiting, gastrointestinal disturbances, and kidney damage. [1] When burned, the chemical oxidation of the fuel yields noxious fumes, requiring foods being cooked to be contained in a receptacle such as a pot or pan, and burned tablets will leave a sticky dark residue on the bottom of pots. If they are stored or used under damp conditions then they can break up while burning and shed burning fragments.
[edit]

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Esbit fumes on 04/07/2013 12:38:24 MDT Print View

combustion can create.

but not will create.

wonder why.

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Esbit fumes on 04/07/2013 13:04:41 MDT Print View

This topic might warrant its own thread. My opologies to the OP for participating in this drift. I only found one study that analyzed the exhaust from hexamine (Esbit) combustion in air. The abstract says:

"The primary products were nitrogen and carbon dioxide, with small amounts of nitrogen monoxide, nitrogen dioxide, and ammonia. Other possible products such as hydrogen cyanide, dinitrogen monoxide, and carbon monoxide were not detected." (Merritt, et al. Analysis of Hexamine Combustion. American Industrial Hygiene Association Journal. Volume 52, Issue 1, 1991.)

The NOx compounds are the only concern, among those, I think. Formaldehyde isn't on that list because it oxidizes too readily. Formaldehyde was actually the fuel stored chemically in the old trioxane tabs. If there is enough oxygen getting to a burning Esbit tab, you shouldn't find any formaldehyde in the exhaust.

Almost all combustion in air produces nitrogen oxides. I ran across several studies that mentioned NOx production by butane stoves. I don't know how the amounts produced by Esbit tabs compare to combustion of other fuels.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Thoughts on fuel and a note to Max at the end of the post on 04/07/2013 18:09:32 MDT Print View

THOUGHTS ON FUEL

Almost everything we carry has the "potential" for disastrous results. One could accidentally hang themselves or decapitate their head on a bear hang cord. One could cut an artery with a small knife. One could trip on a shelter guyline resulting in a fatal fall.

Stoves and fuel are the same. What if, what if, what if. I have had a couple canister leaks over the years. Only lost all my fuel once. I have had no problems with a liquid fuel stove, contrary to what I read from other hikers. But I carefully read all instructions in the manual, figure out how the stove works, adhere to all warnings AND maintenance procedures. I maintain my stoves. When I used a MSR Whisperlite a lot, I did the annual maintenance. Recently I cleaned and installed the maintenance kit items in my four year old Gigapower stove. I also pay attention when using any stove. For example, my LiteMax stove's threads are aluminum -- I am very careful when connecting it to a canister. I use liquid, gas, alcohol and Esbit stoves a lot. None scare me. This allows me to choose the best stove option for each trip.

FOR MAX

Max, many of us enjoy your youthful exuberance. Don't get discouraged. And don't take comments personally -- it seems you do. I have been hiking a long time, and sometimes my posts get nasty comments. Life is too short to worry about what someone things about what I write. Sometimes I post things that might be inaccurate and someone calls me on it -- it's okay; I apologize, correct it, and move on. One well known and skilled member here once called me a "freaking idiot." That person is entitled to their opinion. I didn't even respond... it wasn't a big deal to me.

There are a lot of folks here who are older and more experienced than you. Don't let them intimidate you. They were once your age. But consider what they have to share.

A couple thoughts...

When I was 18 and left home, I was absolutely sure my Dad was stupid and too set in his ways. After time in the service and college, one night we went out to dinner. It was amazing how smart Dad had gotten in the few years I was gone.

-----

When we look at our avocations, there are two components: knowledge and experience. Take a lot of knowledge and a lot of experience, and you get SKILL. There are a lot of people here on BPL that have more experience than you *and* me, and a lot of people who have more knowledge than you *and* me, and many with more skill than the both of us. Learn from them -- I do.

I would explain it this way; when I was younger, about your age, I became an auto mechanic (before someone benighted us technicians). My boss sent me to school, and I was the top student. Back at the shop I "knew" more about automobiles than anyone I worked with. I could explain the most complex systems, and I could repair some of the newest technology the others could not. But at the end of the day, knowledge did not mean a whole lot -- what mattered was how quickly a mechanic could repair a vehicle and do it right the first time. Speed ruled. The more work an individual could complete in a day, the more money the business made; and the more money the fast guys made. I was slow, and sometimes got myself into trouble during a repair because I had book knowledge and very little experience. Over time I gained experience, and combined with my knowledge I became a highly paid skilled technician. It took a few years.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/07/2013 21:25:40 MDT Print View

Daniel,
No. I use only the ~16 oz. Coleman canisters because they last longer than the backpacker boutique ones; and when they sold for half as much in Walmart a few years ago, I bought a whole bunch.

None of them has ever had a stuck valve, at temps in the 20 to 60 degree range, and at altitudes from 500 to 12,000 feet. Some times there will be a little spray when the canister is being screwed onto or off of my Ti Gigapower. Don't think an aluminum thread is such a good idea. You can get ALU fasteners made of very hard alloy, but most ALU is too soft to work reliably for fastening, especially where there will be oft repeated use, as with a stove/canister attachment. When the threads of both fasteners are ALU, that compounds the problem, in my experience.

Those valves are inside the top of the canisters, and are pushed open by a needle on the stove when the canister is screwed in place. So inside the canister is where the sticking would have to be, not in the stove. Sounds like that is what is happening with some canister brands. It would make sense to steer clear of those brands, IMO. It could be that the manufacturing in some of the imported ones is getting sloppy. Or it could be that hikers have been sloppy and fouled the valves on canisters. Hard to tell. Maybe it's a good idea to keep those little plastic tops on the canisters when not in use.

With all the advantages of canisters in three season use, I'm just as wedded to them as others are to other types of stoves, and am not about to ditch them when no problems are occurring, and the evidence of any potential dangers is pretty scanty.

On an unrelated note: Not sure whether the return of the personalizing is good or bad. Maybe gear was getting to be just too boring a subject. People are much more interesting. Then again, there is always Facebook. It would be intersting to know how many of the Max attackers are also avid Facebookers.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/07/2013 21:42:02 MDT Print View

I've had a couple canisters from a well-known company leak, both during the initial light-up and when unscrewing it. The former being the worse since it was accompanied by flare-ups. Basically the top of the canister was on fire like a big fireball. I kicked some dirt on it both times, and the stove resumed normal function. At this point, if there's no problems I'll keep the stove but one more flare up will send it back to REI.

Never had these issues with the heavier MSR Superfly.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
canister failure on 04/07/2013 22:08:37 MDT Print View

HK,
That sounds like gas was leaking from around the stove/canister connection.
That would probably be due to a bad seal inside the stove end of the connection.
There should be an O-ring there to prevent that. So I see that the canister could be fine, and the problem could be with the stove.

Guess we all know from the space shuttle disaster what a little thing like a bad O-ring can do.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/08/2013 04:23:44 MDT Print View

Hi HK

> Basically the top of the canister was on fire like a big fireball.
Please check the screw region on your stove. To me it sounds as though your stove is missing the essential sealing O-ring. That can be very dangerous!

Cheers

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Sounds Dangerous on 04/08/2013 08:40:00 MDT Print View

Flare ups?

IIRC, I was on the AT last summer and I heard a story about a disabled guy who runs a hiker hostel. He and his friends/family contribute a lot to maintaining that section of the AT.

Story I heard was, his leaking canister stove hit a spark and blew up, and his leg or legs were amputated and he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.

So, I don't use canister stoves.


Couldn't resist. Love You BPL :)

Edited by mdilthey on 04/08/2013 08:40:32 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/08/2013 08:46:56 MDT Print View

Maybe the pin on the stove is too long so the Lindal valve opens before the O-ring seals. Or if the stove stops on the rim of the canister, the distance from that surface on the stove and the o-ring is too long. Or the o-ring is damaged and leaks.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Canisters can't explode from simple ignition... on 04/08/2013 11:47:51 MDT Print View

BTW, a leaking canister that encounters an ignition source that ignites the leaking fuel CANNOT explode simply from the fuel igniting. The canister HAS to heat up an build enough pressure in the canister to fail. The fuel inside the canister CANNOT explode as the fuel to air ratio will not support combustion.

The only way a canister is going to “explode” is to fail because it got to hot. When it does come apart the fuel can (an quite possibly will) ignite.

Edited by Hitech on 04/08/2013 11:49:04 MDT.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Canisters can't explode from simple ignition... on 04/08/2013 13:37:39 MDT Print View

Larry, this is no place for facts and common sense. This is where were talk about how Max is afraid of bigfoot and aliens abducting him so he ties himself to a tree every night.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Canisters can't explode from simple ignition... on 04/08/2013 13:45:59 MDT Print View

"This is where were talk about how Max is afraid of bigfoot and aliens abducting him so he ties himself to a tree every night."

This is not recommended because of the potential for lightning strikes and biting ticks, not to mention Treebeard.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Canisters can't explode from simple ignition... on 04/08/2013 13:54:46 MDT Print View

I hear there's a story floating around the West Virginia mountains about a guy who lost a foot and an arm up to his elbow in a vicious tick attack. Would have escaped with minor injuries, but he was tethered to a giant rock. I guess the guy escaped death by throwing his gas canister into the tick's jaws and shooting it with a high powered rifle. I guess the explosion killed the tick and blew off the legs of his hiking buddy. Apparently, the guy who lost both legs......OH MY GOD.....That guy runs a hiker hostel....Max was right. Well, I'll be dammed.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 13:58:03 MDT Print View

....someone clubs a baby seal.

Hang in there Max. BPL is blood in blood out.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 14:00:12 MDT Print View

Hey, I just corroborated his story.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Sheltered? on 04/08/2013 14:31:26 MDT Print View

"My forum profile pic is me lifting a bike over my head at the top of a mountain after over 800 miles of a 1,500 mile unsupported trip"

which you've only told us like a dozen times, no one cares.

my friend got hit by a car last year. you shouldn't ride your bike.

fires are not allowed on the AT in Conn. and parts of VT. Please refrain from using your wood stove in areas where they are not allowed.

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 14:41:56 MDT Print View

Ahhh, gee guys. He was just sayin' he HEARD the story. You know they cannot really explode, they just split and spray out the gas even if you throw them in a fire. Kind'a pretty, though. Don't ask how I know that...

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 14:59:36 MDT Print View

Believe it or not, my little story was not in any way intended to mock Max. Just adding a little levity. I though it was funny (in a good way) he posted his story again.


Edited: 'levity,' not 'brevity,' Travis. Go read your dictionary again.

Edited by T.L. on 04/08/2013 17:18:16 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:02:56 MDT Print View

At least Max didn't say he worked at REI and would be happy to answer any questions we had

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:03:51 MDT Print View

"Believe it or not, my little story was not in any way intended to mock Max. "

Don't tell me. Tell the baby seals.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:06:02 MDT Print View

"BPL is blood in blood out."

Only since they banned QuikClot. Was only blood in before that....

Edited by idester on 04/08/2013 15:08:24 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:10:24 MDT Print View

"Tell the baby seals."

Ah, so I'll repost:

Baby seal walks into a bar. Bartender asks, "What'll you have?"

Baby seal thinks for a second, and then responds, "Anything but a Canadian Club....."

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:17:53 MDT Print View

"At least Max didn't say he worked at REI and would be happy to answer any questions we had"

I remember that one!
I think everyone here loves Max; lots of chances to jump on him.
A warning to the know it all "geezers" though....there is always someone out there that knows even more than you....

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:20:46 MDT Print View

"Baby seal thinks for a second, and then responds, "Anything but a Canadian Club....."

You Sir, are nasty.

I only use redwood from California.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 15:22:01 MDT Print View

"Only since they banned QuikClot. Was only blood in before that...."

Zing! Ha ha... touché!

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/08/2013 15:39:15 MDT Print View

The canister saga has been blown out of proportion.
Stop it already.


Daryl Daryl Daryl
The Mother Ship will arrive on the 13th of this month at 22:15 GMT
(sorry they follow the English football league in transit)
Be ready. You know the place.

Kevin Schneringer
(Slammer) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma Flat Lands
Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/08/2013 15:43:35 MDT Print View

Every Time someone teases Max an angel gets his wings!

Especially the guy who got blown up on the AT by the canister stove.Or so I've heard...........

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/08/2013 16:25:55 MDT Print View

"Every Time someone teases Max an angel gets his wings!

Especially the guy who got blown up on the AT by the canister stove..."

Well, yeah. He will need wings since he doesn't have any legs left.

Seriously though, looks like severe burns can be a problem but probably from refilling white gas stove while it is still in operation (i.e. misuse and not following the instructions - don't do that).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3188091/

ed:ref

Edited by hknewman on 04/08/2013 16:34:35 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 16:36:41 MDT Print View

https://www.facebook.com/groups/359406680749937/

Oh Max.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 16:43:56 MDT Print View

Oh that is NOT real??!!! Is it??!! Oh my, please tell me it isn't...............

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 16:46:32 MDT Print View

Dammit Travis you made me spit my drink out

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
Link? on 04/08/2013 16:54:46 MDT Print View

Ugh what is on that link!! I don't have face book and I read that whole thread about Max and his unwarranted fear of spontaneous combustion. Which apparently was the deciding factor in his choice to use a wood burning stove(now that's a guy I want gear advice from).

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 17:06:31 MDT Print View

Gjj

Gh

Edited by T.L. on 04/08/2013 17:09:20 MDT.

Richard Fischel
(RICKO) - F
Link? on 04/08/2013 17:16:36 MDT Print View

that link will take you to the offical end of the internets - you really don't want to go there.

Edited by RICKO on 04/08/2013 17:20:23 MDT.

Jake D
(JakeDatc) - F

Locale: Bristol,RI
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Every time you tease Max... on 04/08/2013 17:23:41 MDT Print View

"At least Max didn't say he worked at REI and would be happy to answer any questions we had"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCC_PxRWVI4

^o^

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/08/2013 17:24:23 MDT Print View

Attempting to remain entirely factual and helpful ... :-)

If gas is leaking from the neoprene valve inside the canister, then something must be propping the valve open ever so slightly. After all, when you bought the canister it was not leaking. Something has happened while the canister was in your hands.

What is causing the leak, and how to fix it?

The most common cause for a leak is dirt. It usually gets there because the user did not store the canister in a clean place with the plastic cap on it. The cap is essential: it keeps the dirt out. Do NOT throw it out!

If the leak is due to some wedged dirt, then getting it out can be easy. Find a clean place well away from any flames. Take a CLEAN nail or bit of wire which will fit into the hole in the middle of the spigot. I find the short end (hook end) of a Ti wire stake to be very good. Place the wire in the hole and tap it downwards. This should release a puff (or a short blast) of gas. Don't make it a feeble tap: you want a good short blast. Hopefully, that will blow whatever dirt was in there right out.

You can check by submerging the canister in clean water or you can cup your hand around the Lindal valve and pour some water in. Bubbles are bad.

If, on the other hand, the gas is leaking from between the stove and the canister, then you are either missing the O-ring completely, haven't screwed the stove on properly, or the O-ring is damaged. The fix is obvious. Do not hesitate to replace the O-ring if damaged - and put a smear of silicone grease on it when you do.

Cheers

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/08/2013 17:27:46 MDT Print View

Roger, can the o-rings get cold and rigid enough to allow gas to leak?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Link? on 04/08/2013 17:45:33 MDT Print View

The Official Max Dilthey Fan Club with it's 27 members is there.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Max is the man! on 04/08/2013 17:52:36 MDT Print View

27 more than I have in mine.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
The Re-Education of Max Dilthey on 04/08/2013 17:58:25 MDT Print View

Sorry folks, but I'm gonna stick my neck out and say it.

Calling someone out on a statement and goofing around is one thing but writing a few pages of paternal/maternal sounding advice (as well as a few meaner statements) to a complete stranger is a bit patronizing and borders on outright arrogance.

The World vs. Max is starting to reek of bored internet gossips that have found a new whipping boy.

What's next? Does he have to apologize, promise to act better, and some older and presumably wiser BPL stranger absolves him?

I'm glad he's sticking to his guns.

Cheers Max.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 18:09:02 MDT Print View

Mean would be if we made that page up.

We all can take turns taking the heat.

Like so many told me last year. "It's just a website, relax." "Why you such a douchebag?" etc...

I doubt anyone means real harm or is being seriously hateful.

Bet he's gotten some PMs as well.

Max can give his take. Or his club can defend him:)

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: The Re-Education of Max Dilthey on 04/08/2013 18:09:03 MDT Print View

Craig,

You are correct and sometimes there is a fine line between good natured teasing among pears and cruelty. I make the assumption that Max understands that my jibes towards him are in fun and that I mean him no malice but it may not come through the internet that way.

EDIT HOLY COW DID I SAY PEARS? "peers!"

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/08/2013 18:20:18 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: The Re-Education of Max Dilthey on 04/08/2013 18:10:12 MDT Print View

+1 Craig

I hope Max comes up with some clever response

Josh Brock
(needsAbath)

Locale: Outside
internet bullies on 04/08/2013 18:15:50 MDT Print View

Craig- I sort of agree with you there. Some of the advice/responses I just laugh and picture a person in an old cardigan. Yur response on the other hand had me laughing out loud. But to be honest I've seen much worse. On forums where anonymity is necessary, I've seen peoples whole lives posted because they pissed the wrong person off. Along with libraries of pictures that were taken from Myspace/facebook and photo shopped in ways most people would not want to be pictured.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
HA! on 04/08/2013 18:27:14 MDT Print View

Ok, I'm not mad. I'm amused! When it's easy to separate good-natured ribbing from straight sardonicism, I'm on board. Last page or so was a helluva lot more fun than some of the other stuff.

Yes, the fan club is real. HA!

All 27 members are friends. When you're nice to everybody you meet, and uphold yourself as a good guy, and when you're too social for your own good, and when you take on 15-20 copy-editing jobs a semester for people who need their term papers edited, you become popular for the right reasons and that group was not at all sarcastic or mean. I forgot about it until now, actually, as I don't use Facebook anymore (too many ads...).

I love walking around my college campus. Bam! High-five from the basketball team. Wham! Knuckles with the theater kids. It's fun being me in real life, where naiveté and crushing optimism come off as endearing and trust-inspiring.

I get ribbed all the time for stuff similar to the stuff in this forum... but in real life it's easy to tell when someone's smiling with me.



I GUESS I'll stick around... this doesn't seem like a big deal. Thanks for the PM's, people.

P.S. I use my real name on here for a reason. I have a Google Plus, and I also have a profile page for my writing over at Demand Studios. My life, and my experience hiking and biking, is no secret. You can go through it if you really want to...

Dig deep. When I was 16, I made a Myspace page because a girl told me to.

Edited by mdilthey on 04/08/2013 18:32:23 MDT.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/08/2013 18:28:23 MDT Print View

If you follow Roger's good instructions to put some silicone grease on the big stove o-ring, you could borrow a tiny bit to lube the needle before assembly.

+1000 on keeping the dirt out of the works and keeping the cap in place. A bit of windblown pine needle, sand, etc in the opening of the valve is not good. Food bits could easily end up in there. Likewise, you want to keep that crud out of the needle opening too. Storing propane cylinders for a blowtorch in a shop prone to flying sawdust has produced similar exciting phenomena. Oops!

What would I do with a leaking cylinder? Distance, lots of distance. Or just leave the stove attached.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 18:41:14 MDT Print View

"Like so many told me last year. "It's just a website, relax." "Why you such a douchebag?" etc..."

But you were a douchebag......

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: The Re-Education of Max Dilthey on 04/08/2013 18:43:29 MDT Print View

"EDIT HOLY COW DID I SAY PEARS? "peers!""

Thanks for that edit. I thought you were talking about some fruit fight or something...... I thought it was weird, but it did 'move' me, if you know what I mean..... Something about fruit always turns me on.....

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 18:44:51 MDT Print View

were?


Thanks for the compliment.

This too shall pass.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Scariest thing of all. on 04/08/2013 18:46:01 MDT Print View

"were?"

I was giving you credit for time served.....

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
@ Douglas on 04/08/2013 19:00:22 MDT Print View

As I mentioned to my wife the other day...

"As a man who has had to live on MREs, I don't appreciate you saying that I can't appreciate the pain of childbirth."

I know... TMI.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: @ Douglas on 04/08/2013 19:16:09 MDT Print View

Ooo, does consuming multiple MREs make you feel like you're s#itting a coconut?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: @ Douglas on 04/08/2013 19:18:02 MDT Print View

There's a reason the MRE comes with a DIY epidural.

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: Colorado Foothills
Re: MREs on 04/08/2013 20:07:59 MDT Print View

That's why they're commonly known as Meals Ready to Excrete. Of course, passing a coconut would require a whole different level of skill, patience and endorphin.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
... on 04/08/2013 20:41:02 MDT Print View

"skill"

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: ... on 04/08/2013 20:54:05 MDT Print View

Line 34 of my resume:

"Skilled in the art of coconut passing."

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: Colorado Foothills
Re: Line 34 on 04/08/2013 20:57:25 MDT Print View

And I assumed you'd been schooled in rugby union. Well, if you meant something different, I suppose I should have asked better questions.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/08/2013 22:24:19 MDT Print View

Roger Caffin wrote: > The most common cause for a leak is dirt. It usually gets there because the user did not store the canister in a clean place with the plastic cap on it. The cap is essential: it keeps the dirt out. Do NOT throw it out!
Here, here.

Not to mention the possibility that a bit of grit might cause the threads to not mesh properly and cause wear. Not good.

I have mixed feelings about the silicone grease. Obviously it's a good thing if it's kept clean. I however worry about grit adhering to the grease. Thus far I've decided not to use it.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Ed Biermann
(longstride) - F
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/08/2013 22:30:02 MDT Print View

Far out! This thread has been a wild ride. Full circle and then some. You guys are great.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/08/2013 22:30:18 MDT Print View

Travis Leanna wrote: > ...can the o-rings get cold and rigid enough to allow gas to leak?
Yes they can. Still, canister stoves are more reliable than, say white gasoline or kerosene stoves (which have a lot more gaskets, O-rings, and such). In extreme cold, one could pack the stove nearer to one's back or even carry it in an jacket pocket so as to protect it some, but really gas stoves are very reliable.

Not so sure about "no name" stoves from eBay.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: ... on 04/08/2013 22:52:28 MDT Print View

Where is that REI pack fitter guy?!? That stuff was hilarious. I bet he doesn't speak of that post.

Ahh good times

Re: passing a coconut... skill?? Give me an epidural.

Mark Ries
(mtmnmark) - M

Locale: IOWAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
REI packfitter on 04/08/2013 23:55:25 MDT Print View

He got a new job at autozone selling parts so he is on the NASCAR forum teaching them how to build engines. I think Max is thicker skinned than most here have given him credit and the proof is that he is still talking to us.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/08/2013 23:56:10 MDT Print View

"Still, canister stoves are more reliable than, say white gasoline or kerosene stoves"

hmm....

if I had to pick only one stove, and reliability was a life and death situation, I would pick my Svea 123. Over 40 years old and still going strong. Very few parts.

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: REI packfitter on 04/09/2013 00:38:37 MDT Print View

Yeah max makes me crazy but he fits right in.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/09/2013 04:41:35 MDT Print View

> Roger, can the o-rings get cold and rigid enough to allow gas to leak?
Depends ...

If you use a cheap O-ring with very poor low-temp elasticity, then the answer is 'maybe'. But I would not expect a decent stove to have such O-rings.

Me, I always use a Viton O-ring. Viton is good for -26 C (-15 F) to +205 C (400 F) for normal operation, so I reckon I should get good sealing for any normal conditions. By way of explanation, I normally go for the Viton to get the much higher UPPER operating temperature.

Note that just because it is -15 C (5 F) ambient, that does not mean the canister will be that cold. Most likely it will be a lot warmer, either from being warmed in your pack while you are carrying it, or warmed during cooking.

On the other hand, nitrile O-rings are good for -40 C (-40 F) to 107 C (225 F), so if you are looking at a lot of serious cold and not much warm conditions, you might be better off with nitrile.

Fun stuff.
Cheers

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: What to do if gas is leaking out on 04/09/2013 05:07:57 MDT Print View

HJ wrote:
"Still, canister stoves are more reliable than, say white gasoline or kerosene stoves (which have a lot more gaskets, O-rings, and such)."

Jim, I don't think there are any more rubber parts on a SVEA than a canister stove...only one(on the fill cap. The valve gets a graphite packing.) After about 40 years of use mine is still going strong. At 17oz for the stove alone, it is competatitive in weight with MSR's Reactor or a JetBoil. It works as well at 10000' as at sea level. I have dropped a load of firewood on it. It is, perhaps, the most rugged, reliable, and maintenence free stove still being made, though not in Sweden anymore. Fill it, prime and light. Highly efficient, it gets about 10-11L per filling (~4oz of WG or auto-gas.)10oz of fuel and fuel bottle takes me two weeks in the woods. It does NOT have high outputs, though. Generally it cannot compete with JetBoils or other stoves generating 8000-12000BTU, it only puts out ~4500BTU, so 4-5min per liter boiled is not possible. Usually boils water in ~10 minutes on medium-low. (I usually pack up my sleeping bag & pad while water is boiling.)

You can get a pump and cap that allows you easier priming and higher outputs, but this is never required. It can be turned down to about 500-700BTU, about half of an alcohol stoves output, for simmering. Coupled with a heat exchanger pot, and wind screen, it can deliver efficiencies very similar to the JetBoil...about .23oz fuel per liter, but like a canister, can overheat after a single burn. This is about 1/3 the fuel usage I could get from a Simmerlight, for example, at .7oz per liter.

The only downside is it's weight. For short trips, 2-5 nights out, it is heavier than alcohol or a canister. I usually use alcohol for short trips and just use the SVEA for week long outings, but a canister stove would save a few ounces(3-5oz or so, depending on whether it is 6,7 or 8 nights.)

There is NO possibility of the gas container splitting open. The saftey valve prevents this from building up too much pressure. So, it is actually safer than a canister stove, despite rumors to the contrary. Though, it may jet burning fuel out the side, causing a bit of excitement.

I think you must've forgot about this stove, Jim.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 06:06:14 MDT Print View

Forget the Svea 123!? Never! Still a favorite of mine after all these years. Personally, I prefer the original version over the Svea 123R that replaced it in the early 1970's.


I should have added "in extreme cold weather" to my above statement. Canister stoves generally are more reliable in extreme cold weather than WG or kero stoves. And the Svea 123, c'mon let's be honest, struggles in really cold weather, let alone extreme cold weather.

One does have to be careful with overpressurization though, and the safety valve on the cap has been known to fail with age over time. Great stove overall though.

The pump and specialized pump cap have been out of production for many years although you can still sometimes get them (for a premium!!) used on eBay.


Apologies to Nick and James (and to the Svea 123)!!

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 07:14:08 MDT Print View

Yeah, the 123r is what I use. The 123, did not have an internal cleaning needle. Cleaning the jet was, perhaps, the single largest source of problems with the older 123. The jets were not cleaned with care and would get enlarged. This would cause them to burn sooty with reduced heat. The 123r had an internal cleaning needle that kept the jet clean and maintained the correct size.

Yes, at much below 0F (around -18C) they could struggle to get going because the tank itself would not push enough WG up to the vapourizer/jet area. The Mini or Midi pump would generally eliminate that problem. 'Corse, most canisters poop out at about 20-25F. A&H Pack Stoves still have the pumps and cap that goes with them. http://packstoves.net/cart/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=ef6d5ad2402b73e6448e9bea1b28b740&keyword=SVEA+123+pump

A lot of people, myself included, just dump a little extra fuel over the stove when it is very cold. setting it on some bark or a rock, rather than on snow helps a lot, too.

The safety valves could be a problem because they were prone to rusting in place after several years. A drop of olive oil every few years usually does the trick for keeping them working. If they happen to pop, a slight tapping on a rock will return them to service. Older ones, circa 1955-1960 or so, were one shot, I think. Maybe it was just rusted.

Too bad they never made a truely light-weight version. I could see dropping $150 on a 8oz SVEA. Aluminum for the expansion chamber, Ti for the tank, burner, pot supports. It was always cheap to run, too. 12floz of WG cost less than $1 (at todays prices) rather than the $15 they want for canister fuel...

Anyway, my prefered stove for week or longer outings. The bigest problem I have had is when using Auto-gas. It can burn slow, and requires frequent jet cleaning.
'Course, this is trivial with the "R" version.

Anyway....

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 08:43:25 MDT Print View

The Svea 123 jet gets clogged with soot, although the included cleaning tool should fix that if you haven't lost it.

I remember camping in the snow on Mt Rainier and I couldn't get the stove to work, although I wasn't very skilled at using it.

The one pound weight doesn't include the pot, unlike the Jetboil. The Reactor is ridiculously heavy.

You occasionally have to fill it with white gas. A little will invariably spill, and the smell of that stuff is obnoxious. Stays with you even if you try to wash it off. And there's a risk of catastrophic fire.

You have to prime it - pour a little in the cup at top. Maybe a couple times in bad weather. Obnoxious the same as when you fill it.

Svea 123 belongs in museum : )

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 09:16:41 MDT Print View

"Svea 123 belongs in museum : )"

Yeah, I agree. Though I often forget to add the "R" designation, when I talk about it, hey, ha.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 09:35:32 MDT Print View

Definitely the "R" version (which is all that's available now anyways) is preferred for automotive gasoline; no question. I like the older version which has better flame control, but then I'm a bit of a stove. A bit. ;)

I'm pretty sure the item sold at Packstoves.net is not an Optimus brand pump. I believe it's a reproduction. I'm not saying it's a bad or good pump. It's just that Optimus discontinued those 30 years ago and hasn't made them since. This is someone's re-creation. It may be perfectly fine; I really don't know either way. Packstoves.net is a mom and pop operation. I think they're reputation is generally good, but they've been accused of being a little slow now and again.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 09:45:35 MDT Print View

The Reactor is ridiculously heavy.
Have you seen the new smaller, lighter Reactor? It's significantly lighter than the original (pre-2009) Reactors. I hardly ever use my original 1.7L Reactor unless I plan to melt serious snow. It's just not worth it; it's such a heavy beast. But they re-designed the pot ca. 2009, and it's a lot lighter.

Original, beefy 1.7L Reactor pot (left). New, lighter 1.0L Reactor pot (right).


In 2013 (January), they came out with a 1.0L version. It's still heavier than a JB, but it's windproof whereas a JB really isn't. A JB has better wind resistance than an ordinary upright, but it can't compare to a Reactor. I'm pretty much liking what I'm seeing with the new 1.0L version of the Reactor. I just got it, but I expect that I'll actually get some use out of it as opposed to my old, original version 1.7L Reactor (which mainly sits).

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 10:50:01 MDT Print View

New Reactor is 172 g = 6 ounces

My Ti pot plus windscreen is about the same

I wonder what the improved fuel usage saves

That's sort of like Jetboils - original ones were ridiculously heavy but the Sol Ti weighs about the same as conventional

On the Reactor, I wonder if the fins on the bottom do very much. And the exhaust gas that goes up the sides loses heat to the metal outside. Is that heat conducted back to the pot or is just radiated out?

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Reactor vs. Jetboil vs. "Regular" Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 11:33:54 MDT Print View

All told, a aluminum Jetboil Sol weighs 312g/11oz* on my scale. A Reactor 390g/14.7oz. The Reactor is a quarter pound heavier. Ouch. The JB is pretty efficient although the JB does not have a pot skirt like the Reactor.

The real advantage of the Reactor is windproofness. The JB can be blown out in high winds whereas the Reactor hardly takes notice. Even in lower winds where things aren't as obvious and dramatic, the JB can lose a lot of efficiency and go through a lot of fuel whereas the Reactor is remarkably consistent.

The Reactor is the leader in extreme conditions; the Jetboil in mild. Both are fast.

It would be nice to sit down and do some serious efficiency testing between a 1.0L Reactor and an aluminum Jetboil Sol.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving


*That's on an aluminum Jetboil from a year or so ago. It looks like Jetboil has done some things to make the current aluminum version heavier, perhaps in an effort to make the Ti version appear lighter.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 13:42:51 MDT Print View

An old anecdote. I was co-leading a group backpack trip once, and I brought along my hot MSR white gas stove to do half of the cooking. My co-leader brought along his Svea 123, although he was not very experienced with it. When it came time to do some cooking, he dripped a few drops of fuel over the burner for priming. He lit it, it flickered for a few seconds, and then it went out. So, he dribbled more fuel over it, pumped the little mini-pump, and lit it again. Again, the fire danced around for a short period and then went out without getting any real pressurization going in the tank. For the third go, he dribbled several spoons of fuel over it, furiously pumped the mini-pump, and lit it. This time it caught. The priming fire was more of a blaze, and the pressure built up rapidly. The burner was going great guns, and then it happened. The pressure safety relief valve opened in the filler cap. All of a sudden, a diagonal fire jet was shooting out of the filler cap, and the thing looked like it was about ready for a shuttle launch. My co-leader didn't know what to do. He had no fire blanket to throw over it, and he had no water standing by. It seemed ready to explode. I just kicked it over in the sand with my boot, and then kicked more sand over it, so it was out in an instant. Needless to say, the safety valve was melted and permanently failed, so that Svea was retired to the junk heap.

The stovies on this forum have probably seen this before with inexperienced Svea users.

--B.G.--

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/09/2013 15:02:51 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/08/2013 19:28:02 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: On canister stoves, the poerty of Max, inspiration vs. intuition on 04/09/2013 15:06:45 MDT Print View

Daniel, what a great post!
Thanks.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: On canister stoves, the poerty of Max, inspiration vs. intuition on 04/09/2013 15:12:36 MDT Print View

Is there a Coles Notes version?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: On canister stoves, the poerty of Max, inspiration vs. intuition on 04/09/2013 15:15:47 MDT Print View

"Honestly, the things used to really freak me out. They just get so hot. I know I'm going to burn myself one day using one. It's just a matter of time."

You aren't a real stovie until you've singed the hair off the back of your hand a few times.

Beside, if you are going to run with the big dogs, you have to learn to lift your leg very high.

--B.G.--

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: On canister stoves, the poerty of Max, inspiration vs. intuition on 04/09/2013 15:19:40 MDT Print View

"Is there a Coles Notes version?"

Dr. Schultz... I'll do the trolling around here thank you very much.

Behold the OG of Schultz

.schultz

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Thanks Daniel on 04/09/2013 16:16:30 MDT Print View

Daniel,

Thanks for the kind words. I doubt I live up to half of them, but the ethereal "Max" that all young forum users might embody that you spoke of is a valuable part of the community. There are people in their 50's and 60's doing the exact same thing, too.

I think I have lessons to learn on approaching discussions. I quickly learned not to dismiss things I considered "off-topic" even if I was specific in my OP, because that kind of request is unreasonable and there's value to tangents. There was an individual talking knives VS. scissors last week who fell into the same trap. I am trying not to hold on to bad habits.

I also get trapped in loops sometimes. I say something, someone counters, and then it's a race for the last word. I also want to try to let go of a counterpoint rather than pursue being "right" at the expense of credibility and actual progress.

Lessons, lessons. The Internet is kind of like being thrown into elementary school and then working your way back to civilized socialization. That detachment that comes with a complete lack of tone of voice, facial expression, and volume is hard to consider sometimes, but we all manage.

Thanks to everyone that convinced me this wasn't a lost cause. Thanks also to the people who recognized my frustration and responded positively, especially Douglacide and Ian Bloom. I'll try to get outside more often so I have more questions to ask.

This weekend is Acadia National Park in Maine. I'll post a trip report, although it's a much more casual experience than our Camel's Hump and Moosilauke trips earlier this year. Still, I might try to find a way to make it interesting.

45º sleeping bag in 32º weather? Sounds like my kind of party....

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 16:19:50 MDT Print View

Hi Bob

> The pressure safety relief valve opened in the filler cap. All of a sudden, a
> diagonal fire jet was shooting out of the filler cap,

Not just Svea 123s. Optimus 8R can do that too. Extended pancake cooking session INside a tent. Fortunately the tent door was open, and fortunately it was pouring rain outside. The stove sort of levitated out the door ... No damage though, and the stove was fine for the rest of the several weeks of the trip. Maybe we got it extinguished and cooled fast enough.

Cheers
Roger Caffin (PhD) (for Daniel)

Edited by rcaffin on 04/09/2013 16:20:35 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 16:51:44 MDT Print View

"No damage though"

That is surprising. Once the safety relief valve opens, most of them are permanently ruined (by intention).

Maybe you have a force field installed on yours.

That's one of the good things about a typical MSR white gas stove, that there is no ruining feature to upset things. About the only two killers are (A) if the fuel line gets clogged, (B) if the pump gasket "leather" dries out.

I saw a guy whose MSR stove (not the fuel tank) had been run over by a car tire. He bent it back into shape with a Leatherman tool, and then he started on a one-week backpack trip with it.

--B.G.--

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 17:22:35 MDT Print View

Bob,

Normally it's just the cap that is ruined if the SRV blows. The rest of the stove is normally fine. This is true for that class of thermal feed back stoves:
Optimus 8/8R
Primus 71
Optimus 80
Optimus 99
Svea 123/123R
Optimus Eagle 1000
... and any other stove with that type of cap. The above are the ones I can remember off the top of my head. Replace the cap, and your stove should be fine. At least that's the design intent.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 17:56:44 MDT Print View

I understand the design intent. The problem used to be that nobody would ever carry a spare fuel cap with their stove. Therefore, when the fuel cap relief blows, the stove is junk for the rest of that trip.

Once I saw the other guy's stove fail that way, I went out and bought a spare fuel cap for an old Optimus that I had. But that was just one more loose part to get lost in some campsite.

--B.G.--

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Reactor vs. Jetboil vs. "Regular" Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 18:11:30 MDT Print View

Have you had trouble the JetBoil Sol AL blowing out? I've used it unsheltered in some pretty stiff wind deliberately and it seemed uneffected for boiling water. I would imagine it could be blown out easily if you were trying to simmer. I'm just wondering if there is an issue with the JB.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Reactor vs. Jetboil vs. "Regular" Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 18:22:57 MDT Print View

I'm just wondering if there is an issue with the JB.
An "issue?" No, not per se, but it's not as windproof as a Reactor. It usually shows up as increased fuel consumption rather than the stove blowing out.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 18:47:49 MDT Print View

> > "No damage though"
> That is surprising. Once the safety relief valve opens, most of them are permanently
> ruined (by intention).

Very old stove - 1960s model.
I think the release was by spring pressure. When it cooled down the spring sealed the valve again. The flame was not at the cap - it started several inches away!
I don't trust white gas any more...

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/09/2013 20:59:08 MDT Print View

"I don't trust white gas any more..."

That sounds like a training problem.

--B.G.--

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Thanks Daniel on 04/09/2013 21:03:53 MDT Print View

Daniel & Max, THOSE were good posts.

Not to keep rehashing this on a stove thread, but I thought Max's last post was a great show of character.



Oh, and also thanks to the posters on their stove issues and knowledge. I learned something.

Edited by T.L. on 04/09/2013 21:08:34 MDT.

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/09/2013 21:37:30 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/08/2013 19:29:38 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Abridged: On Caniters, the Poetry Of Max, And Inspiration vs. Intuition on 04/09/2013 22:11:47 MDT Print View

Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate.

I've worked closely with thousands of 18-year-olds in my career. Not a lot of innovation on the whole. A whole lot of follow the leader though.

"Despite stereotypes of entrepreneurs as fresh-faced youngsters, new research has found that older workers are more likely to innovate than their under-35 counterparts."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/20/innovation-grows-among-older-workers.html

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/09/2013 22:29:33 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/08/2013 19:27:29 MDT.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 04/09/2013 22:48:19 MDT Print View

youll be fine ...

as a side benefit it acts as a bit of a hand warmer ...

and if you should suddenly feel the need to panic ... just chuck the thing as far as you can and shout "FIRE IN THE HOLE !!!" ... at least the fuel doesnt spill all over u when u toss it at that innocent bear

people burn down tents with liquid fuel stoves (a common hazard in the early mountaineering days), they spill alcohol all over the place and start fires (just search for those vitrolic threads), and then theres fire bans ... etc ...

ANYTHING can be "dangerous" if you dont use it properly ...

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 04/09/2013 23:09:09 MDT Print View

Just don't tilt the thing, especially with a fresh canister. Shake a canister some time. Hear that sloshing sound? That's liquid inside. Yes I know it's a "gas" canister, but it's under a lot of pressure down inside that little canister, and it all squishes together and becomes liquid. "Squishes" is a scientific term that I'm sure Roger will appreciate. ;)

Seriously though, put a gas under enough pressure and it does indeed liquefy, as evidenced by the aforementioned sloshing sound. If you tilt the burner too far over, liquid might come out and instead of that little tame blue flame, you'll get 8"/12cm high yellow flames shooting out the sides. And it's in your hands.

Yes, I do test this stuff, and no this is not a theory. Here's an MSR MicroRocket (MSR will now disown me) on a Brunton stove stand with the canister inverted.


Now, let's fire it up.

It was broad daylight when I shot this and the wind was blowing, but I think you can see yellow flames extending well beyond the normal flame limit of a MicroRocket.

MicroRocket, normal flame:


Now, think about it. You're holding the whole thing by the cozy. Your hands are where? Above the burner. Get my drift?

The safest best is to set it down although I know plenty of people hold it. Don't know that it's a good idea.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 04/09/2013 23:18:03 MDT Print View

Its worse in the cold. The valve on my inverted stove is VERY touchy in cold temps. Just the slightest turn, and I'm liable to get a delayed rush of fuel, causing a mini fireball. Finicky that thing is. I've learned to be patient and careful with inverted canisters, and I wouldn't want to be holding a lit canister, Jetboil or not, if some liquid hit the feed.

steven franchuk
(Surf) - M
Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 04/10/2013 00:16:34 MDT Print View

"Another side benefit, filling the jetboil with clean snow was as simple as shaking it off the tree branches into the cookpot. This could be done, little by little for better efficiency without stopping the stove. Plus you can watch the flame and make sure it doesn't got out.

Of course, this could be a big no-no. "


Deniel, I don't see any issue with melting snow shaken off of trees slowly other than it might not be as efficient as doing a one full pot with the stove on high.


It is interesting to note that of all of the first hand reports of canister failures none reported the the canister exploding. The two second had reports (I heard from soneone ...) included canister explosions. The two second hand report don't appear to be more myth than reality to me.

BPL did acually run a story about canister safety and one canister was actually heated until it failed. It failed at 98C and it took 16 minutes to heat it up to that point.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/exploding_gas_canisters_the_hazard_of_overheating#.UWTvyaLQpCw

Note a canister is made of 3 parts, the valve, the main can, and the bottom of the can. All are tightly crimped together. When a canister fails it will fail in its weakest spot which is likely where two parts are joined together. So the most likely failures are:

1 A seam ruptures and the all the gas is released and the can stays in one piece.
2. A seam ruputes and the two parts of the fly of in oposite directions.

A failure of two seams at the same time is note likely to happen because one seam will always fail first and when it does the pressue in the can goes to zero before the second seam will fail. The only way you can get more than three seperate pieces of metal would require high explosives.

If a canister is going to explode in front of you you will get burned by the fire and one piece of the can might hit you and cause an injury (likely a cut) while the other will be moving in the oposite direction. You won't loose multiple limbs due to flying metal.

A spark hitting a leaking canister will not cause it to suddenly explode. There is no air in the canister so there is no way for a fire to occur in the canister. However outside the canister will be fuel will burn. That burning fuel could heat the canister and it might heat it enough to cause it to explode. However as fuel burns the The amount of fuel left in the canister drops and the loss of fuel will also cause a cooling effect In short there is race going on when a leaking canister burns. Will it get hot enough to explode before it runs out of fuel? My guess is that in most cases it will run out of fuel before it can explode. Also in most cases it will take several minutes for the can to get hot enough to explode. More than enough time to get up and walk to a safe distance.

In short if your can leaks and catches fire, try putting it out with dirt or water and if possible throw it into snow or a lake. If you can't do that within 20 seconds the best you can do is to move to a safe distance and wait for it to be over. Most of the first hand reports on this forum of leaks and fires are consistent with trying to put it out and if that failes walk away.

From my own limited experience with white gas stoves, white gas is more dangerous.

Before I got into boy scouts my dad had burned off the paint on two stoves due to problems priming them. In scouts I had to use them but the adults kept a very close eye on us to insure we used them safely. Fortunately we had few fire balls while using those stoves. Then in one day in a multi troup camporee I heard a scream and commotion. Later I learned a scout had remove the fuel cap from a white gas stove and poured the fuel in the cap and then put the fuel in the fire (it was a very wet day). He didn't notice a small flame on the cap and when he put it back on the stove. He suffered serious burns on his face. There were apparently other incidents and a year later the local scout councel decided to ban the use of white gas stoves in scouts.

So before the age of 16 I had seen several fire balls and one serious accident with white gas. From then on in scouts we had to use propane stoves. The green canisters were haavy but they were easy to use and we had no safety problems with them.


Once I got back into hiking I purchased a butane stove. Never had anything serious happen with them. I have recently had one case were the stove wouldn't work. I remove the canister inspected it and put the can back on. Then it worked normally. Don' know what happened but it wasn't dangerous. No one I know has had a problem with butane.

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/10/2013 04:49:16 MDT Print View

Sounds more like a digestive problem to me

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Svea 123 vs. Canister Stoves on 04/10/2013 07:33:37 MDT Print View

"Sounds more like a digestive problem to me"
Ha, ha....
Yeah....I would much rather eat cooked food than have gas.

(kidding...)

Daniel Fish
(daniel@fishfamilypdx.com)

Locale: PDX
... on 04/10/2013 08:46:54 MDT Print View

...

Edited by daniel@fishfamilypdx.com on 06/08/2013 19:26:30 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 17:34:26 MDT Print View

When we talk about older or younger; and innovation, we risk moving into the murky waters of stereotyping. It cracks me up that colleges teach classes on entrepreneurial business. I work with entrepreneurial businessmen almost everyday.

-----------------------------------------
My opinion is that innovators and entrepreneurs are risk takers; and this has nothing to do with age. It cannot be taught. Risk takers are a minority.
-----------------------------------------

I find that many older people are unwilling to take risks because it might jeopardize the security they have in job, home, savings, etc.

A couple years ago I built a workshop and training materials for a client on "attracting, hiring, and retaining Gen Y employees." My research found that Gen Y typically look to peers for approval and feedback, and they prefer to collaborate with other Gen Y's to solve problems. Not a climate for innovation IMO. But then this is the stereotypical Gen Y.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 17:45:15 MDT Print View

"Conversely, don't try to beat down what is commonly seen as grumpy older folks who refuse to justify their choices "

Why is it that Daniel posts this, and then the next two are from Nick and then me?

--B.G.--

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 18:04:29 MDT Print View

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill. Muhahaha!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 18:07:12 MDT Print View

Role models.



grumpy old men

John Nausieda
(Meander) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 18:12:56 MDT Print View

Yar.
You egg! Young fry of treachery!
Looks like gibberish to you? Here's what it all means:
To call someone an egg was to draw attention to their youth, suggesting they're so young that they're not even hatched yet. Fry has a similar meaning - it's a tiny, just-hatched fish.

Fancy reading more like that? It's from:
Macbeth, Act 4, Scene 2

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 18:17:55 MDT Print View

And in the words of GB Shaw, "What a shame to waste youth upon the young."

Muir makes a better role model:
John Muir

Herbert Sitz
(hes)

Locale: Pacific NW
Re: RE: "Perhaps we underestimate the ability of "older" folks to innovate" on 04/10/2013 20:56:00 MDT Print View

"Conversely, don't try to beat down what is commonly seen as grumpy older folks who refuse to justify their choices when confronted with the 'why' question. These behaviors also have a place and a benefit and should be loved and appreciated and nurtured."

I know you're trying to draw distinctions between old and young and show both have their good points. But this seems to be taking things too far. Sorry, anyone -- old, young, or in between -- who refuses to justify their assertions when politely asked 'Why?' deserves to be disregarded.

"So my point is this, don't try to beat down what is commonly seen as youthful arrogance. Don't try to beat down what is commonly seen as the young dismissing the elder wisdom."

Conversely, I see no need to tolerate all youthful arrogance. Youth need to learn how to voice their opinions in a respectful way. They also need to learn that their audience may have negative reactions to assertions not because of the content, but because they're made in a certain way. Assuming they want to communicate their ideas, they may need to calibrate their tone and method of presentation to avoid alienating their audience. Giving youth this feedback is not "beating them down"; it's helping them calibrate things so they can communicate better, a skill that will serve them well as they go through life.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
ovee and over... on 04/10/2013 21:27:14 MDT Print View

One problem us old guys have with explaining ourselves is that we have had to explain why for the same thing to one to many people. If you ask after that point... ;^)

I know defending the best way to do something in my line of work gets old quick. But its usually the other old guys I'm explaining it to. My boss once said "I don't see what everyone has against gotos"! You have to be an old programmer to get it, sorry.

Jeremy and Angela
(requiem) - F - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: ovee and over... on 04/11/2013 00:55:02 MDT Print View

My boss once said "I don't see what everyone has against gotos"

Yes, a Real Programmer would make use of the COME FROM construct instead.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: ovee and over... on 04/11/2013 01:27:49 MDT Print View

I think my mis-use of the GOTO command is the reason the university I attended made a new policy that if some one created a loop on the IBM 360; the "offender" would have to pick up the tab to reset everything.
Needless to say I didn't graduate in Computer Sci., they didn't like my punch cards typing skills either.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
New/Old Stoves on 04/11/2013 06:07:08 MDT Print View

New-fast, efficient, tend to run a little hot

Old-dependable, proven design, sometimes hard to ignite

But no matter the type, both get the job done in the end.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Old school vs new on 04/11/2013 07:29:44 MDT Print View

This thread is totally cracking me up. Max, thanks for being such a good sport!!!

My geezer, arthritic, cardiac-stent compromised hippie dad loves backpacking, so I've been using my newfound epiphanies of going lighter to help him get back on the trail. He went with me once a few years ago (when I was still trudging my 4-man REI 10-pound bomber tent for 2 people) and he didn't get more than 2-3 miles in his dry rotted external frame pack with his massive 6 pound DOWN sleeping bag circa 1979.

So...I'm sort of dragging him kicking and screaming to the 2000s and being lighter, but wow do I run into issues:

He loves his big heavy green army canteen with the metal and canvas holder.
He wants a Eureka Everest! tent...none of this namby pamby trekking pole tarp sh!?
He likes the gorilla I got for him, but he's modifying it to have lids and external pockets and such.
He still carries his SVEA 123 (but I did get him to get a smaller pot...he didn't need an iron Dutch oven...)

My point is that he pines for a time when he was healthy and fit and could canoe the boundary waters of northern MN for weeks at a time...and that means the gear that goes with those memories. And I'm the whipper snapper that questions his wisdom and thinks I know better than he does about these things...

Anyway, it's all relative. Thank you all for some serious chuckles on a thread about stoves.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: New/Old Stoves on 04/11/2013 07:55:39 MDT Print View

"Old-dependable, proven design, sometimes hard to ignite"

Sounds like some of my dates.....

Herbert Sitz
(hes)

Locale: Pacific NW
Re: Old school vs new on 04/11/2013 09:24:55 MDT Print View

"He wants a Eureka Everest! tent...none of this namby pamby trekking pole tarp sh!?"

But what did he use on his recent trip where he was so comfortable in the morning he didn't want to get out of bed?. . .

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
thread on 04/11/2013 11:07:45 MDT Print View

I'm considering deleting this so you all have to go find something better to do.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Noooooooooo... on 04/11/2013 11:27:10 MDT Print View

This is what I read in the morning with my breakfast!

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Old school vs new on 04/11/2013 11:53:54 MDT Print View

He used a namby pamby fly creek UL 2.

I'm determined to convince him I'm right. I did compromise and will be ordering the TT Moment DW tomorrow...he won't know it's not really all that namby pamby 'cause it has a pole.

And David, please don't delete!! This is what distracts me from writing my notes at work!!!!!

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
re: thread on 04/11/2013 12:16:08 MDT Print View

There's always another JMT clothing thread.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: re: thread on 04/11/2013 12:47:52 MDT Print View

Why not just move it to Chaff?

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: re: thread on 04/11/2013 12:51:24 MDT Print View

"Why not just move it to Chaff?"

Because Chaff was demoniacally and without notice moved from the recent thread list instead of Gear Swap.

I wonder how the Carbon Flame War is doing.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: re: thread on 04/11/2013 13:27:10 MDT Print View

WHAT???!?!??!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: re: thread on 04/11/2013 14:43:44 MDT Print View

"WHAT???!?!??!"

When I click on the "Recent Threads" link in the sidebar, Chaff posts are no longer listed.

But at the top of the recent threads page is the following:

Forum Index » Recent Forum Theads

To view recently updated individual posts, please visit Recent Posts.
For Chaff (off topic) forum: Recent Chaff Posts | Recent Chaff Threads.

Edit:

In Forum Index » Recent Forum Theads" the misspelling is not mine. That is what the heading says :)

Edited by ngatel on 04/11/2013 17:58:43 MDT.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: thread on 04/11/2013 14:46:51 MDT Print View

>I'm considering deleting this so you all have to go find something better to do



Aaaaannnnnd right to my "do not hike with" list you go.

:)

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: thread on 04/11/2013 18:19:37 MDT Print View

Aaaaannnnnd right to my "do not hike with" list you go.
+1

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 20:50:49 MDT Print View

Aaaaannnnnd right to my "do not hike with" list you go.
+2

Besides. I need to start more JMT clothing threads.

What do you guys do for shirts????

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 20:58:19 MDT Print View

My standard backpack clothing has me wearing a synthetic t-shirt, then an ordinary thin long-sleeve shirt over that. When it gets cool, I pull on a zip-front fleece shirt. Then when it gets cold, I pull on my Mont Bell down inner jacket and then my 4-ounce hooded rain jacket. On rare occasions, I might carry a spare sythetic t-shirt, but that is only if I am going to be around people.

If I camp near a stream, I may rinse out one thin item so that it will be dry by morning.

--B.G.--

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/11/2013 21:01:35 MDT Print View

My first ever canister on my first ever canister stove developed a leak in my backyard when i was *playing* with the new toy. Discharged its contents in less than a minute. Even though I'm an old geezer this did not really scare me or put me off using canister stoves. but I do check each new canister before I use it in the field, and I always replace the plastic cap after use. Since that first failure many moons ago, I have never had another problem, and to this day I consider canister stoves to be the safest option of any stove I have used. This after twice having older white gas stoves catch fire (one lit the forest duff around it and I barely got that fire out), once tipping over my alcohol stove, spilling fire all over, and more than once having a wood stove get out of hand. I have never had a problem with Esbit catching things on fire, but I find it fiddly to light, and keep lit, especially in high winds. For the safety and convenience, it is hard to beat modern canister stoves IMHO.

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/11/2013 21:11:47 MDT Print View

>What do you guys do for shirts????


Shirts? I don't need no stinking shirts.

I hike topless.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 21:15:46 MDT Print View

"What do you guys do for shirts????"

I bought a bunch from Travis. Ugly as sin but comfortable enough. They were in great shape, like they'd never been worn....

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 21:20:34 MDT Print View

BAHAHAHHAHAH! I think I just pissed my pants.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 21:24:40 MDT Print View

"I think I just pissed my pants."

Which is why I only buy his shirts.....

Travis Leanna
(T.L.) - MLife

Locale: Wisconsin
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 21:36:27 MDT Print View

You sir, are on a roll.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Orange County, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: thread on 04/11/2013 21:39:22 MDT Print View

Valiant effort, Lynn, to get this thread back on track.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Shirts on 04/11/2013 21:41:16 MDT Print View

Cuben fiber tube top.

Or.... was just a synth t shirt but I'm trying to clean up my act with sun exposure so I'm converting to long sleeved shirts.

Edit: No that's never happened to me.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/11/2013 21:47:49 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Canister failure: has this happened to you? on 04/12/2013 11:15:40 MDT Print View

">What do you guys do for shirts????


Shirts? I don't need no stinking shirts.

I hike topless."


I sometimes hike topless.

Some younger lady referred to someone as the old guy that wore no shirt so now I don't know what to do, I don't want people to think of me as the old guy that wears no shirt, but it's hot and just more comfortable. Hopefully I don't gross out people too much, except maybe I don't really care a lot...

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/17/2014 21:17:16 MDT Print View

"Just don't tilt the thing, especially with a fresh canister. Shake a canister some time. Hear that sloshing sound? That's liquid inside. Yes I know it's a "gas" canister, but it's under a lot of pressure down inside that little canister, and it all squishes together and becomes liquid. "Squishes" is a scientific term that I'm sure Roger will appreciate. ;)

Seriously though, put a gas under enough pressure and it does indeed liquefy, as evidenced by the aforementioned sloshing sound. If you tilt the burner too far over, liquid might come out and instead of that little tame blue flame, you'll get 8"/12cm high yellow flames shooting out the sides. And it's in your hands."

This question goes to Roger or anyone else who has experience with a full canister laid on it's side.

Will it squirt liquid fuel?

If the stove is in use and knocked over, will it squirt burning liquid fuel?

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/17/2014 21:33:28 MDT Print View

Dan,
Someone here did a "tilt test" with several canister stoves.
He let them warm up, then held them horizontal for 30 seconds or so.
Nothing blew up, spewed, of did anything to cause alarm.

Look Here, for Duane's post.

I thought there was a video, but I can't find it.

Edited by greg23 on 07/17/2014 22:08:08 MDT.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Pressure on 07/18/2014 00:11:28 MDT Print View

A 50/50 propane/butane mix will be at 61 psi at 70 degrees. A 30/70 mix is only 45 psi.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 04:55:19 MDT Print View

Hi Dan

> This question goes to Roger or anyone else who has experience with a full canister
> laid on it's side.
> Will it squirt liquid fuel?

Yes, of course it will squirt out liquid fuel. Nothing magic there. Er ... I am assuming the valve is OPEN for this.
If you are talking about waving around a canister all by itself without a stove connected, then the answer is of course it won't.

That is how a remote canister winter stove works after all. It USES that liquid feed to avoid cooling the canister.,

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 07/18/2014 04:59:19 MDT.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 06:26:32 MDT Print View

The reason for the question was due to recent concerns for stoves being used during "fire bans"

Canister stoves are allowed and others not.

Murphy's Law always comes into play ;)

A canister stove can be tipped over while in use and spray burning fuel as I learned today.

It was just a thought. IF, the law makers knew about this, they may reconsider ;(

We may want to delete my comment :-)

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 12:31:33 MDT Print View

"Canister stoves are allowed and others not."

Overgeneralization.

White gas stoves would be allowed also.

--B.G.--

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 16:10:23 MDT Print View

> White gas stoves would be allowed also.
My understanding is that in many cases they are not allowed. The hazard with them lies not in the normal running but in the fireball priming.

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 16:21:16 MDT Print View

"My understanding is that in many cases they are not allowed."

Where is that?

I've never found any jurisdiction where white gas is prohibited.

Besides, if you are getting a fireball, you are doing it all wrong and wasting fuel as well.

--B.G.--

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 20:58:34 MDT Print View

Hi Bob

> if you are getting a fireball, you are doing it all wrong and wasting fuel as well.
Oh, I agree in principle, but have you read the official MSR instructions for lighting the XGK? They explicitely mention a fireball during priming. The actual instructions say:

1. Release only 1/2 tablespoon of fuel. Open control valve 1 turn and let fuel flow for 3 seconds. Close control valve. Look for fuel in burner cup and on priming pad.
2. Light fuel
A brief soccer ball size flame is normal.

I can understand some Park authorities not being happy with this idea during mid-summer.

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/18/2014 21:45:46 MDT Print View

Hmmm. Perhaps the MSR company meant that in jest, even if the lawyers wouldn't like it.

I got pretty good with my XGK back in 1996. We were on a very high expedition, so fuel usage was important. Due to cold and wind, we were all cooking in the tent vestibules. After the first two days of practice, I got to where I could release only about two drops of white gas for priming (appearing around the orifice), and then start the stove on low pressure from there.

Besides conserving the fuel, I was avoiding the fireball. All I used as a flame guard against the tent vestibule nylon was one sheet of aluminum foil.

At the end of ten or so days on the mountain, my cooking team had used one-third less fuel than any of the other teams. Of course, there we had no fire danger in the least.

--B.G.--

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/19/2014 16:42:58 MDT Print View

Hi Bob

> Besides conserving the fuel, I was avoiding the fireball.
> my cooking team had used one-third less fuel than any of the other teams.

I think this illustrates the problem very well. Yes, you were perfectly safe and knew exactly what you were doing. But what about the newbie camped near you? Fireballs-R-Us!

The Park authorities have to make the rules to cover everyone, especially the complete idiots. They cannot discriminate. For myself, I am happy that their regulations make me a (little) bit safer from the idiots.

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jetboil in the wind: Doing the Jetboil Shuffle on 07/19/2014 17:47:52 MDT Print View

Roger, in this specific instance, there were no newbies. This was Aconcagua in Argentina, and the national park rangers had few rules of any kind to enforce. I believe that there was near-100% use of white gas and no other fuel.

--B.G.--